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    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

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    Mike E

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:22 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Given the ZBL is marginally better protected than the BTR-80 series, the case is clear that the said vehicle will be in demand. What puzzles me is how well will the K-25 fare in the export market...it is a vehicle that albeit better protected has at least for now a less performant weapon combination when compared to its cousin BMP-3M.
    I'd say it has a "different" weapon armament than an "inferior" one.

    The 100 mm BMP-3 gun is flexible but against armor fires less effective missiles v. the Kornets on the K-25 IFV.

    Both model auto-cannons are similar w/o a distant advantage AFAIK.... So how would the BMP-3 have a superior armament? Maybe against personnel and structures but not armor, especially heavy armor.

    If your idea is to fence with a 120mm equipped tank, while riding one of these vehicles, you need to lay down the playstation controller.

    Both vehicles have their pros. However, you got a vehicle whose ammunition count in 100mm rounds is about 40 in autoloader and hull (all rounds concerned), while on the otherside, you'd be damned if more than 8 Kornets were available for the  K-25 IFV. Nevermind the flexiblity offered by the various 100mm rounds and the fact that the BMP-3 itself might have a Kornet launcher and 2-4 Kornets on its fighting compartment (over the organic 23-3 Arkan).

    So far the 100mm is more interesting than those 4 RTF Kornets.
    Why throw in what I can only take as an insult? I am not trying to disagree. 

    I said the 100 mm was more flexible but it comes with drawbacks as well. 40 rounds of which how many are ATGM's? 

    The Kornet has superior characteristics...like it or not that is hugely important. We have seen the value of IFV's attacking MBT's (ala Bradley) and if they can do it well, I would honestly prefer that over the ability to fire a few other rounds. 

    Interesting or not...Kornet is the better ATGM and that is what I am saying. 

    K-25 IFV may see an armament upgrade in the future anyway, possibly with the heavier turret.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:39 am

    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Given the ZBL is marginally better protected than the BTR-80 series, the case is clear that the said vehicle will be in demand. What puzzles me is how well will the K-25 fare in the export market...it is a vehicle that albeit better protected has at least for now a less performant weapon combination when compared to its cousin BMP-3M.
    I'd say it has a "different" weapon armament than an "inferior" one.

    The 100 mm BMP-3 gun is flexible but against armor fires less effective missiles v. the Kornets on the K-25 IFV.

    Both model auto-cannons are similar w/o a distant advantage AFAIK.... So how would the BMP-3 have a superior armament? Maybe against personnel and structures but not armor, especially heavy armor.

    If your idea is to fence with a 120mm equipped tank, while riding one of these vehicles, you need to lay down the playstation controller.

    Both vehicles have their pros. However, you got a vehicle whose ammunition count in 100mm rounds is about 40 in autoloader and hull (all rounds concerned), while on the otherside, you'd be damned if more than 8 Kornets were available for the  K-25 IFV. Nevermind the flexiblity offered by the various 100mm rounds and the fact that the BMP-3 itself might have a Kornet launcher and 2-4 Kornets on its fighting compartment (over the organic 23-3 Arkan).

    So far the 100mm is more interesting than those 4 RTF Kornets.
    Why throw in what I can only take as an insult? I am not trying to disagree. 

    I said the 100 mm was more flexible but it comes with drawbacks as well. 40 rounds of which how many are ATGM's? 

    The Kornet has superior characteristics...like it or not that is hugely important. We have seen the value of IFV's attacking MBT's (ala Bradley) and if they can do it well, I would honestly prefer that over the ability to fire a few other rounds. 

    Interesting or not...Kornet is the better ATGM and that is what I am saying. 

    K-25 IFV may see an armament upgrade in the future anyway, possibly with the heavier turret.

    1. I wasn't trying to belittle you, it was all in good faith, a gentle poke. But i agree, it sounds childish. Accept my apologies.
    2. As much as 8 23-3's.
    3. The Kornet is far better than the Arkan in penetration, but you don't fight with a top notch ATGM alone. The Arkan can take on pretty much EVERY AFV out there and cause damage. Nevermind the fact that you'd be stuck with a 30mm for everything non-heavy metal.
    What is also hugely important is also having to wipe out pockets with HE Frag, Airburst ammo etc.

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    Mike E

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:43 am

    Accepted... 

    Based on your own estimates that would give you as many 23-3's in the BMP as the Kornet in the K-25 (with external loading).

    I can agree with that... Hopefully the improved turret will include a more powerful cannon so it can engage targets w/o the Kornets. 

    When you look at everything together... K-25 has superior heavy-armor performance but the BMP wins on everything else.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:56 am

    Mike E wrote:Accepted... 

    Based on your own estimates that would give you as many 23-3's in the BMP as the Kornet in the K-25 (with external loading).

    I can agree with that... Hopefully the improved turret will include a more powerful cannon so it can engage targets w/o the Kornets. 

    When you look at everything together... K-25 has superior heavy-armor performance but the BMP wins on everything else.

    Indeed the K-25 is the more survivable. And if push comes to shove, I can see the BMP-3 turret integrated on the K-25 as well...so in a sense even the export market can be covered at minimal expense.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:00 am

    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Apparently, at least one country is still interested in the "Atom"

    The following is from February but I don't recall seeing it mentioned here...

    "Uralvagonzavod" will develop the BMP "Atom" without the participation of France

    Russia continues to work on the project, BMP-"Atom" with a new partner, said the General Director of "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Sienko at the arms exhibition IDEX–2015.

    "We have a new partner, we are moving towards the goal of creating a finished product for a specific country" said Sienko.

    The country in question was not specified

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/rusvesna.su/future/1424726527
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:28 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Apparently, at least one country is still interested in the "Atom"

    The following is from February but I don't recall seeing it mentioned here...

    "Uralvagonzavod" will develop the BMP "Atom" without the participation of France

    Russia continues to work on the project, BMP-"Atom" with a new partner, said the General Director of "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Sienko at the arms exhibition IDEX–2015.

    "We have a new partner, we are moving towards the goal of creating a finished product for a specific country" said Sienko.

    The country in question was not specified

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/rusvesna.su/future/1424726527

    I know that one. The country however isn't China but more than probably India.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:09 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Given the ZBL is marginally better protected than the BTR-80 series, the case is clear that the said vehicle will be in demand. What puzzles me is how well will the K-25 fare in the export market...it is a vehicle that albeit better protected has at least for now a less performant weapon combination when compared to its cousin BMP-3M.
    I'd say it has a "different" weapon armament than an "inferior" one.

    The 100 mm BMP-3 gun is flexible but against armor fires less effective missiles v. the Kornets on the K-25 IFV.

    Both model auto-cannons are similar w/o a distant advantage AFAIK.... So how would the BMP-3 have a superior armament? Maybe against personnel and structures but not armor, especially heavy armor.

    If your idea is to fence with a 120mm equipped tank, while riding one of these vehicles, you need to lay down the playstation controller.

    Both vehicles have their pros. However, you got a vehicle whose ammunition count in 100mm rounds is about 40 in autoloader and hull (all rounds concerned), while on the otherside, you'd be damned if more than 8 Kornets were available for the  K-25 IFV. Nevermind the flexiblity offered by the various 100mm rounds and the fact that the BMP-3 itself might have a Kornet launcher and 2-4 Kornets on its fighting compartment (over the organic 23-3 Arkan).

    So far the 100mm is more interesting than those 4 RTF Kornets.

    No, I rather think a Playstation controller is exactly what he needs

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3082276/War-games-Russia-reveals-latest-tank-controlled-PLAYSTATION-controller.html#ixzz3aBahXZCH
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:12 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:The Boomerang is about to become a star seller, Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9 and the Chinese themselves being in demand for modern wheeled chassis.

    Given the ZBL is marginally better protected than the BTR-80 series, the case is clear that the said vehicle will be in demand. What puzzles me is how well will the K-25 fare in the export market...it is a vehicle that albeit better protected has at least for now a less performant weapon combination when compared to its cousin BMP-3M.
    I'd say it has a "different" weapon armament than an "inferior" one.

    The 100 mm BMP-3 gun is flexible but against armor fires less effective missiles v. the Kornets on the K-25 IFV.

    Both model auto-cannons are similar w/o a distant advantage AFAIK.... So how would the BMP-3 have a superior armament? Maybe against personnel and structures but not armor, especially heavy armor.

    If your idea is to fence with a 120mm equipped tank, while riding one of these vehicles, you need to lay down the playstation controller.

    Both vehicles have their pros. However, you got a vehicle whose ammunition count in 100mm rounds is about 40 in autoloader and hull (all rounds concerned), while on the otherside, you'd be damned if more than 8 Kornets were available for the  K-25 IFV. Nevermind the flexiblity offered by the various 100mm rounds and the fact that the BMP-3 itself might have a Kornet launcher and 2-4 Kornets on its fighting compartment (over the organic 23-3 Arkan).

    So far the 100mm is more interesting than those 4 RTF Kornets.

    No, I rather think a Playstation controller is exactly what he needs

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3082276/War-games-Russia-reveals-latest-tank-controlled-PLAYSTATION-controller.html#ixzz3aBahXZCH


    That's the Daily Fail..they'd tell me I was a man, I'd go test my DNA to be sure.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:38 pm

    plebs Rolling Eyes ... mouse and keyboard is what you need. Razz
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:18 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:plebs Rolling Eyes ... mouse and keyboard is what you need. Razz

    That would easily enable a 2-man crew; like in BF3 What a Face

    xeno

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  xeno on Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:13 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9

    What happened? Any source? Thanks...

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  mutantsushi on Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:30 pm

    [quote="KoTeMoRe"]
    Cyberspec wrote:Apparently, at least one country is still interested in the "Atom"
    The following is from February but I don't recall seeing it mentioned here...
    "Uralvagonzavod" will develop the BMP "Atom" without the participation of France
    Russia continues to work on the project, BMP-"Atom" with a new partner, said the General Director of "Uralvagonzavod" Oleg Sienko at the arms exhibition IDEX–2015.
    "We have a new partner, we are moving towards the goal of creating a finished product for a specific country" said Sienko.
    I know that one. The country however isn't China but more than probably India.
    Why either of them?  What program of India's would this be?  If they can't immediately buy it/put it into production, might as well offer Boomerang.
    ATOM always seemed aimed at middle east, particularly UAE (wanting some commonality with French platforms, like BMP-3 turret but not so much platform)

    UAE's last IDEX show would seem to confirm Russian-turreted APC/IFV project.  They show "new" Enigmavehicle with BMP-3 turret, with Russia also exhibiting AU-220M turret(57mm) announcing agreement to integrate that.  Obviously they would be happy to offer either of them, with ultimate decision in customer's hands.  The "new" Engima vehicle looks suspiciously like a modification of Serbian Laza2r, which had shown up at previous IDEX but not this one (no point if UAE licenced design for their own derivative) ...A decent choice to quickly replace French chassis now impeded by sanctions/new cold war political environment vs. Russia (sanctions don't legally apply to any existing contracts, but political pressure still exists ala Mistral).  

    Iraq also has traditional links to Serbia/Yugoslavia, and (not sure) have decent relations with UAE(unlike with Saudis, Qataris) , so I wouldn't be surprised if they were also customer for such a product.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:56 am

    xeno wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:Venezuela already having "some issues" with the ZBL9

    What happened? Any source? Thanks...

    On various blogs there are claims about the vehicles having issues with the Chinese sources Deutz engines. They aren't producing the 400+ Pk's they're rated at 360 something which makes the vehicles "lardy". There are also issues with the stabilization of the 2A72 copy and the rounds err slightly on the sides needing rezeroing often...

    Will try to find it again.

    Mutantsushi:

    India has been in the lurking for a decent wheeled substitute and expects to dump the current BTR fleet to Blangladesh who doesn't seem to be satiated by its recent purchases.
    The Emirati demands are in a different league than the current Boomerang offer. The idea of the Enigma is one of clear Western underpinings (watch the suspension chosen) while that commonality has ceased with the Boomerang (which employs classic solution from BTR90 only doubled). That was a mistake I made prior to the revealing. I thought that the VBCI was just "bought of the shelf". It isn't the case. Then look at the ramp and lowering mechanism. It is totally different from the solutions made by both Nexter and KMZ. However when you look at Iveco's VBPT/Super AV it's all there, even the integration of the damn turret.

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    The Boomerang

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:26 pm

    Why either of them?  What program of India's would this be?  If they can't immediately buy it/put it into production, might as well offer Boomerang.
    ATOM always seemed aimed at middle east, particularly UAE (wanting some commonality with French platforms, like BMP-3 turret but not so much platform)

    AFAIK the ATOM was designed as a wheeled vehicle the Russians could export to their allies and French customers without having to sell the Boomerang. Now that the French partners are out of the picture it seems to be sensible to continue development of the ATOM as a vehicle that can be exported without Russian Army approval... I do suspect any 57mm gun armed version will be armed with the A-220 system and S-60 gun rather than the new weapon being developed.


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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:51 pm

    Developer: the Russian military will receive self-propelled gun on the basis of "Kurganets"

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2024560

    MOSCOW, June 6. /TASS/. Self-propelled artillery gun caliber 120 mm will be created on the unified tracked platform "kurganets-25", reported on 6 June TASS the representative of the press service of the concern "Tractor Works".

    "Armata and Kurganets": from the remote controller to artificial intelligence
    "On a unified medium tracked platform "kurganets-25" planned to create a mobile reconnaissance paragraph, chassis control machinery, machine radiation and chemical reconnaissance, as well as self-propelled artillery gun (120 mm)," - said the Agency interlocutor.
    He explained that the concept of "platform" implies the possibility of creation on its base of combat vehicles for different purposes.
    Platform "kurganets-25" is one of the heavy "Armata", middle "Boomerang" and easy "Typhoon". Now on its basis created infantry fighting vehicle, shown at the Victory day parade in Moscow on 9 may. It is assumed that the mass production of the armored vehicles could begin in 2017 or 2018.

    Kinda Sprut for land forces?
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:53 pm

    New Nona artillery. Nona is one of the best if not the best of small calibre artilleries it beat the Paladin in accuracy and effectiveness.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:40 am

    Kinda Sprut for land forces?

    Nahh... more like the Vena for land forces.

    The Sprut... or light tank version of Kurganets will have a 125mm main gun.


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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:53 pm

    57mm as AAD: Self-propelled anti-aircraft installation will create a platform "kurganets-25"

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2026563
    MOSCOW, June 8. /TASS/. Concern "tractor plants" plans to install anti-aircraft gun platform "kurganets-25", announced on 8 June TASS the representative of the press service of the concern.


    "On a unified medium tracked platform "kurganets-25" planned to create a family of promising floating armored vehicles. There is a willingness to cooperate with the main developers of specimens of this family and their willingness to modify the platform to fit their requirements. For example, it is planned to create a fighting machine anti-aircraft artillery complex (calibre 57 mm)," - said the Agency interlocutor.
    Earlier in the concern TASS reported that on the basis of Kurgancha" will create a self-propelled artillery gun caliber 120 mm.

    Platform "kurganets-25" is one of the heavy "Armata", middle "Boomerang" and easy "Typhoon". Now on its basis created infantry fighting vehicle, shown at the Victory day parade in Moscow on 9 may. It is assumed that the mass production of the armored vehicles could begin in 2017 or 2018.

    Steel research Institute: armor "Armata" invulnerable to existing anti-tank missiles
    Now the army and Marines are armed with self-propelled anti-aircraft gun ZSU-23-4 "Shilka", which was produced in 1964. "Shilka" is equipped with four 23-mm cannons and designed to destroy air targets at ranges of up to 2.5 km and a height of up to 1.5 km, flying at speeds up to 450 meters per second.


    and here from Gurkhan´s blog about 57mm:
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2015/01/57.htmlhttp://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2015/01/57.html

    and here from 2012 about AAD options for land forces 57mm selfpropelled guns and new ammo.
    http://gurkhan.blogspot.com/2012/10/57.html


    GarryB wrote:
    Kinda Sprut for land forces?

    Nahh... more like the Vena for land forces.

    The Sprut... or light tank version of Kurganets will have a 125mm main gun.

    Hope that Sprut like light tank on Kurganets will go to Marines
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:50 pm

    I can't find any info on wether the bumerang and kurganets are amphibious, but judging by their completely unhydrodynamic hull form I'm inclined to believe that they aren't. If this is true , then the soviet mechanized doctrine, perfected for 60 years and the best in the world has been betrayed in the name of failed NATO doctrine whitch creates shitty white elephant lemons like the VBCI, LAV and STryker.



    APCs will always be pieces of shit in terms of raw armor. Adding more armor on an APC while sacrificing mobility and expendability is like polishing a piece of shit.
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:32 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I can't find any info on wether the bumerang and kurganets are amphibious, but judging by their completely unhydrodynamic hull form I'm inclined to believe that they aren't. If this is true , then the soviet mechanized doctrine, perfected for 60 years and the best in the world has been betrayed in the name of failed NATO doctrine whitch creates shitty white elephant lemons like the VBCI, LAV and STryker.



    APCs will always be pieces of shit in terms of raw armor. Adding more armor on an APC while sacrificing mobility and expendability is like polishing a piece of shit.
    look closer to thé rear both K and B.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:05 pm

    K


    B
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    2SPOOKY4U

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:30 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I can't find any info on wether the bumerang and kurganets are amphibious, but judging by their completely unhydrodynamic hull form I'm inclined to believe that they aren't. If this is true , then the soviet mechanized doctrine, perfected for 60 years and the best in the world has been betrayed in the name of failed NATO doctrine whitch creates shitty white elephant lemons like the VBCI, LAV and STryker.



    APCs will always be pieces of shit in terms of raw armor. Adding more armor on an APC while sacrificing mobility and expendability is like polishing a piece of shit.

    Both Bumerang and Kurganets are amphibious, and I would not trust your "judgement" on what is hydrodynamic or not.

    You can see the podded props on the Bumerang, and the coverings on the water jets on the Kurganets.

    T-15 is an APC, I dare you to say that is armor is subpar or inadequate.

    Russia has not sacrificed anything in adding armor to the K or B, neither mobility nor expendability(which only applies to recon assets).


    Everyone sees you for the troll you are BTW.





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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:47 pm



    Russia has not sacrificed anything in adding armor to the K or B, neither mobility nor expendability(which only applies to recon assets).
    Then the Russians have once again thankfully correctly designed an APC and IFV, not deviating into copying crappy NATO design philosophies...


    Everyone sees you for the troll you are BTW.
    Why the insults? Whether they're amphibious is a legitimate issue that surprisingly nobody has raised which made me bring it up.[/quote]
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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:53 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Then the Russians have once again thankfully correctly designed an APC and IFV, not deviating into copying crappy NATO design philosophies...
    NATO design philosophy is meant to do what is meant to do, and does it perfectly fine.


    Why the insults? Whether they're amphibious is a legitimate issue that surprisingly nobody has raised which made me bring it up.

    Everyone already realized they are amphibious, because not everyone is a troll that thinks technological progress is linked to aircraft.

    The fact that you did not even see the podded propellers on the Boomerang is astounding. How the fck did you miss them?
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:10 pm


    NATO design philosophy is meant to do what is meant to do, and does it perfectly fine.
    Apperently not, when most of it spawns overpriced inferior rube goldberg garbage like the Abrams, chieftain MBTs, stryker, and puma.



    Everyone already realized they are amphibious, because not everyone is a troll that thinks technological progress is linked to aircraft.

    The fact that you did not even see the podded propellers on the Boomerang is astounding. How the fck did you miss them?
    They looked more like exhaust pipes and I missed them. When I imagine a propeller I imagine a blade, not afterburner thingies.

    As for the kurganets, I thought they were ammo boxes.

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    Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #2

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