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    Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

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    Vote (multiple choice allowed) for the armored vehicles under 15 tons performing well enough in the War of Donbas to avoid a total decommission by the end of this decade.

    [ 11 ]
    20% [20%] 
    [ 12 ]
    22% [22%] 
    [ 2 ]
    4% [4%] 
    [ 9 ]
    16% [16%] 
    [ 1 ]
    2% [2%] 
    [ 7 ]
    13% [13%] 
    [ 6 ]
    11% [11%] 
    [ 4 ]
    7% [7%] 
    [ 1 ]
    2% [2%] 
    [ 2 ]
    3% [3%] 

    Total Votes: 55
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    eehnie
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    Re: Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

    Post  eehnie on Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:30 am

    One of the most interesting sources about decommissioned material comes from the Departament of Property Relations, and their sales and auctions.

    http://economy.mil.ru/economy/disposal_of_assets/movables/lots.htm

    For the year 2016, most of the sales and auctions have been related with land transport trucks and other material, but also it has been some sales related to land warfare, in this case in the form of scrap material or spare parts. My impression is that the amounts have been lower than in previous years, something that would be consistent with the fact of a reduction of the scrapping activity derived from the decommission wave of 2010-2013.

    The sales and auctions affected to the following models of land warfare:

    In low amounts:

    BMP-3: Sale and auction of scrap material related to some engineering vehicle.
    2S1: Sale and auction of scrap material related to some engineering vehicle.
    MT-LB: Sale and auction of scrap material.
    BMP-2: Sale and auction of scrap material.

    In bigger amounts:

    BRDM-2: Sale and auction of spare parts.
    BTR-60: Sale and auction of spare parts.

    T-64: Sale and auction of scrap material related to engineering vehicles.
    T-55: Sale and auction of scrap material related to engineering vehicles.
    T-54: Sale and auction of scrap material related to engineering vehicles.
    BTR-50: Sale and auction of spare parts.
    PT-76: Sale and auction of spare parts.

    Both the scrap material and the spare parts come likely from decommissioned and scrapped units. This is why this source is good to check the recent scrapping activity.

    From the reports I would assume that in 2016 only has been scrapping activity for armoured vehicles that are engineering variants of the T-54, T-55, T-64, and in lower amounts of the 2S1 and BMP-3. In the case of the BPM-2 and MT-LB the sales and actions can come from some brocken part and it is possible that some unit has been scrapped recently canibalized for spare parts.

    In the case of the BRDM-2, BTR-60, BTR-50 and PT-76, the sale and auction of spare parts likely means that the scrapping process was done in previous years, and that the Russian Armed Forces has not a need of them. It is possible that the spare parts from/for BRDM-2 be compatible with the SA-9 too. In the case of the BTR-50 and the PT-76 likely means a total liquidation of the stocks of spare parts.



    PS: In the case of land transport vehicles, there is even a sale of units that are in use still. There a Catalog from 2015 that you can see in the following link:

    http://economy.mil.ru/files/morf/katalog_vdvi_2_ochered.pdf


    Last edited by eehnie on Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:00 pm; edited 8 times in total (Reason for editing : Update with late reports in the year)

    par far
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    Re: Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

    Post  par far on Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:41 pm

    eehnie wrote:One of the most interesting sources about decommissioned material comes from the Departament of Property Relations, and their sales and auctions.

    http://economy.mil.ru/economy/disposal_of_assets/movables/lots.htm

    For the year 2016, most of the sales and auctions have been related with land transport trucks and other material, but also it has been some sales related to land warfare, in this case in the form of scrap material or spare parts. My impression is that the amounts have been lower than in previous years, something that would be consistent with the fact of a reduction of the scrapping activity derived from the decommission wave of 2010-2013.

    The sales and auctions affected to the following models of land warfare:

    In low amounts:

    BMP-3: Sale and auction of scrap material related to some engineering vehicle.
    2S1: Sale and auction of scrap material related to some engineering vehicle.
    MT-LB: Sale and auction of scrap material.
    BMP-2: Sale and auction of scrap material.

    In bigger amounts:

    BRDM-2: Sale and auction of spare parts.
    BTR-60: Sale and auction of spare parts.

    T-64: Sale and auction of scrap material related to engineering vehicles.
    T-55: Sale and auction of scrap material related to engineering vehicles.
    T-54: Sale and auction of scrap material related to engineering vehicles.
    BTR-50: Sale and auction of spare parts.
    PT-76: Sale and auction of spare parts.

    Both the scrap material and the spare parts come likely from decommissioned and scrapped units. This is why this source is good to check the recent scrapping activity.

    From the reports I would assume that in 2016 only has been scrapping activity for armoured vehicles that are engineering variants of the T-54, T-55, T-64, and in lower amounts of the 2S1 and BMP-3. In the case of the BPM-2 and MT-LB the sales and actions can come from some brocken part and it is possible that some unit has been scrapped recently canibalized for spare parts.

    In the case of the BRDM-2, BTR-60, BTR-50 and PT-76, the sale and auction of spare parts likely means that the scrapping process was done in previous years, and that the Russian Armed Forces has not a need of them. It is possible that the spare parts from/for BRDM-2 be compatible with the SA-9 too. In the case of the BTR-50 and the PT-76 likely means a total liquidation of the stocks of spare parts.



    PS: In the case of land transport vehicles, there is even a sale of units that are in use still. There a Catalog from 2015 that you can see in the following link:

    http://economy.mil.ru/files/morf/katalog_vdvi_2_ochered.pdf



    Instead of doing this, why don't they clean up the stuff, make sure it is working and send it to Syria?
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    eehnie
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    Re: Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

    Post  eehnie on Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:11 am

    par far wrote:
    eehnie wrote:One of the most interesting sources about decommissioned material comes from the Departament of Property Relations, and their sales and auctions.

    http://economy.mil.ru/economy/disposal_of_assets/movables/lots.htm

    For the year 2016, most of the sales and auctions have been related with land transport trucks and other material, but also it has been some sales related to land warfare, in this case in the form of scrap material or spare parts. My impression is that the amounts have been lower than in previous years, something that would be consistent with the fact of a reduction of the scrapping activity derived from the decommission wave of 2010-2013.

    The sales and auctions affected to the following models of land warfare:

    In low amounts:

    BMP-3: Sale and auction of scrap material related to some engineering vehicle.
    2S1: Sale and auction of scrap material related to some engineering vehicle.
    MT-LB: Sale and auction of scrap material.
    BMP-2: Sale and auction of scrap material.

    In bigger amounts:

    BRDM-2: Sale and auction of spare parts.
    BTR-60: Sale and auction of spare parts.

    T-64: Sale and auction of scrap material related to engineering vehicles.
    T-55: Sale and auction of scrap material related to engineering vehicles.
    T-54: Sale and auction of scrap material related to engineering vehicles.
    BTR-50: Sale and auction of spare parts.
    PT-76: Sale and auction of spare parts.

    Both the scrap material and the spare parts come likely from decommissioned and scrapped units. This is why this source is good to check the recent scrapping activity.

    From the reports I would assume that in 2016 only has been scrapping activity for armoured vehicles that are engineering variants of the T-54, T-55, T-64, and in lower amounts of the 2S1 and BMP-3. In the case of the BPM-2 and MT-LB the sales and actions can come from some brocken part and it is possible that some unit has been scrapped recently canibalized for spare parts.

    In the case of the BRDM-2, BTR-60, BTR-50 and PT-76, the sale and auction of spare parts likely means that the scrapping process was done in previous years, and that the Russian Armed Forces has not a need of them. It is possible that the spare parts from/for BRDM-2 be compatible with the SA-9 too. In the case of the BTR-50 and the PT-76 likely means a total liquidation of the stocks of spare parts.



    PS: In the case of land transport vehicles, there is even a sale of units that are in use still. There a Catalog from 2015 that you can see in the following link:

    http://economy.mil.ru/files/morf/katalog_vdvi_2_ochered.pdf



    Instead of doing this, why don't they clean up the stuff, make sure it is working and send it to Syria?

    Russia makes some money.

    As resume we can say that all this come from:

    - Engineering vehicle variants of BMP-3, 2S1, T-64, T-55 and T-54.
    - Spare parts of BRDM-2, BTR-60, BTR-50 and PT-76 of units scrapped before 2016.
    - A few brocken parts or parts of canibalized units of MT-LB and BMP-2

    Not really useful for combat in Syria, except the spare parts.
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    Re: Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:15 am

    The cost of cleaning it up and even giving it some minor upgrades to make it more useful does make it expensive charity.

    If you could get a country to take it for a nominal fee and perhaps pay Russia to refurbish and upgrade it before sending it it would be worth the effort.

    Otherwise it simply makes more sense simply to auction it off as scrap or to museums around the world that might want a vehicle or two in their display... and of course the odd collector...


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    eehnie
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    Re: Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

    Post  eehnie on Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:03 pm

    One of the most interesting sources about decommissioned material comes from the Departament of Property Relations, and their sales and auctions.

    http://economy.mil.ru/economy/disposal_of_assets/movables/lots.htm

    For the year 2016, most of the sales and auctions have been related with land transport trucks and other material, but also it has been some sales related to land warfare, in this case in the form of scrap material or spare parts. My impression is that the amounts have been lower than in previous years, something that would be consistent with the fact of a reduction of the scrapping activity derived from the decommission wave of 2010-2013.

    The sales and auctions affected to the following models of land warfare:

    In low amounts:

    BMP-3: Sale and auction of scrap material related to some engineering vehicle.
    2S1: Sale and auction of scrap material related to some engineering vehicle.
    BMP-2: Sale and auction of scrap material.

    In bigger amounts:

    MT-LB: Sale and auction of scrap material.
    BRDM-2: Sale and auction of scrap material and spare parts.
    BMP-1: Sale and auction of scrap material and spare parts.
    BTR-60: Sale and auction of scrap material and spare parts.

    AT-T: Sale and auction of scrap material of engineering vehicles.

    T-55: Sale and auction of scrap material only related to engineering vehicles.
    T-54: Sale and auction of scrap material only related to engineering vehicles.
    BTR-50: Sale and auction of scrap material and spare parts.

    PT-76: Sale and auction of spare parts.
    BRDM-1: Sale and auction of spare parts.

    Both the scrap material and the spare parts come likely from decommissioned and scrapped units. This is why this source is good to check the recent scrapping activity.

    In the case of the units of the BMP-3, 2S1 and BMP-2 is possible to talk about isolate cases of broken pieces or canibalized units. We can see in the reports that the recent scrapping activity has been centered in units of the MT-LB, BRDM-2, BMP-1, BTR-60 and engineering units based in the T-55 and AT-T. Also there is still some activity with T-54 and BTR-50, but lower.

    Looking at the reports I tend to think that:
    - The scrapping process of the BRDM-1 was finnished before 2016, including sales and auction fo scrap material. In 2016 would be the liquidation of the spare parts.
    - The scrapping process of the PT-76 was finnished before 2016, including sales and auction of scrap material. In 2016 would be the liquidation of the spare parts.
    - The scrapping process of the BTR-50 can be totally finnished, even with a liquidation of the spare parts.
    - The scrapping process of the T-54 tanks can be totally finnished, including the engineering variants.
    - The scrapping process of the T-55 tanks can be totally finnished, while it is possible that some engineering units remain to be scrapped in 2017.
    - The scrapping process of the AT-T engineering vehicles seems close to the end, while it is possible to see increasing the scrapping in 2017.
    - The scrapping process of the T-64 tanks can be totally finnished, but not for the engineering variants.
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    franco
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    Re: Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

    Post  franco on Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:41 pm

    Volumes of utilization of various types of weapons

    The Ministry of Defense placed on the federal portal of draft normative legal acts a draft amendment to Presidential Decree No. 775 "On changing the procedure for the release of military property, corporatization and privatization of military trade enterprises," as a result of which the only implementer of ferrous and non-ferrous metals scrap belonging to the military department will be OOO "TransLom". In the explanatory memorandum, among other things, the volume of armaments disposed to 2020 is indicated:

    *****
    At present, the movable property of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, which is not in demand in the interests of state protection, includes weapons and other property.
    Exemption from not found use in the Ministry of Defense of Russia weapons is carried out through disposal within the GOZ with the involvement of budgetary funds.

    Background: by the end of 2020, it is necessary to dispose of 9.9 thousand units of armored vehicles, 21.5 thousand units of missile and artillery weapons, about 7 million small arms, more than 150 million pieces of ammunition, 140 thousand conventional weapons , Almost 2 thousand aircraft and helicopters , a significant number of other types of weapons. The implementation of works on the disposal of this amount of weapons, military and special equipment will require more than 50 billion budgetary appropriations.

    Taking into account the reduction of budgetary allocations within the framework of the Agreement on Cooperation between the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the State Corporation for the Promotion of the Development, Production and Export of High-Tech Industrial Products Rostek in the implementation of measures for the comprehensive utilization of weapons, military and special equipment, On the residual book value without the involvement of the federal budget.
    Other property, including scrap of ferrous and non-ferrous metals, is sold in accordance with Presidential Decree No. 775 of July 23, 1997 "On changing the procedure for selling released military property, corporatization and privatization of military trade enterprises", the Government of the Russian Federation from October 15, 1999 No. 1165 "On the sale of released movable military property" and Order of the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation of June 24, 2016 No. 377.

    For reference: in 2016, the Ministry of Defense of Russia sold 207,800 tons of ferrous scrap and 5,300 tons of nonferrous scrap, in 2017 it is planned to sell 230,000 tons of scrap metal.

    At the same time, the expansion of the geography of application and the scope of tasks facing the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, including in the Arctic zone and the regions of the Far North, the terms for the release, sale and export of scrap of ferrous and nonferrous metals from the territory of military units do not meet modern requirements. Long periods of time spent in the park and warehouse areas of decommissioned military equipment (including those that are subject to disposal) require additional financial costs associated with its protection, create prerequisites for theft, as well as cause a negative reaction in the media and, as a consequence, worsening public opinion On the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation as a whole.
    In addition, the military command and control bodies, with the release of scrap of ferrous and non-ferrous metals, are responsible for disassembling and dismantling the source of its formation, as well as carrying out works to bring the property into a state that excludes the use for its intended purpose, which requires additional detachment of personnel for tasks, Not related to the combat readiness and training of troops.
    Analysis of the ferrous and nonferrous metals scrap market showed that one of its main participants is LLC "TransLom", which is the only specialized organization that has in the Russian Federation the largest branch network, its own production facilities with the ability to pre-cut, prepare and transport scrap, Including in hard-to-reach regions, in the required volumes (more than 250 thousand tons per year). At the same time, it is necessary to ensure the minimum time for removal of scrap from the territory of military units.
    It is believed that the granting of the priority right of the specialized organization LLC "TransLom" to purchase scrap of ferrous and non-ferrous metals formed from decommissioned (recycled) property will significantly shorten the terms for the liberation of the territory of the Ministry of Defense from environmentally hazardous secondary materials, Reduce the risks of their loss (theft) and exclude a negative reaction in the media.
    In addition, the exclusion of intermediaries (resellers) from the chain "seller-enterprise-processor (metallurgical enterprise)" will increase the flow of funds to the budget of the Russian Federation from the sale of scrap of ferrous and non-ferrous metals.
    The introduction of these changes will not lead to an increase in the number of federal state civil servants of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and will not require the involvement of additional budgetary funds.
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    eehnie
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    Re: Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

    Post  eehnie on Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:48 pm

    Recently has been published The Military Balance 2017.

    While in overall terms the data offered seems in line with other sources, there are two groups where The Military Balance fails:

    1.- In the refered to the ground forces of Russia, the publication shows its habitual resistance to include the newer warfare. Weapons present today but excluded of the report:

    T-14
    2S35
    T-15
    Typhoon-U
    Typhoon-K
    Bulat 6x6 APC
    BTR-90

    2.- In the other side, some very old material is listed still as present. Concretely they keep saying without update since at least 2008, that Russia has:

    2000 T-64
    2800+ T-55
    2500 T-62
    0000+ T-54

    0100 BM-13
    0000+ SA-9
    0000+ BTR-50

    1075 D-20
    0650 M-46
    0100 ML-20
    0040 B-4(M)
    0000+ ZU-23-2
    0000+ S-60

    3750 M-30
    0700 D-1
    0300 M-160

    0100+ BPM-97

    Note that the 2B9 Vasilek is in the report, but only for Syria, not for Russia.

    Analyzing the results of the scrapping process, and the public references to recent use of the weapons in the Russian Armed Forces, today I do not think the presence of these weapons is real, except in the case of the engineering veriants of the T-64, but obviously in very lower amounts. Also, in the refered to the artillery pieces, these data remain unchanged in the last 10 editions of the publication, since The Military Balance 2008, at least, like we can see here:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1606p200-russian-gun-artillery-discussion-thread#176385

    The last decommission process (2011-2014), and the military help of Russia to Syria, makes these data about the oldest warfare incompatible with the reality.

    The effect of these two mistakes combined is to make the overall picture of the Russian armament looks significantly older and less modern than it is in reality.
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    eehnie
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    Re: Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

    Post  eehnie on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:44 am

    http://economy.mil.ru/economy/disposal_of_assets/movables/lots.htm

    In the refered to the land material, the analysis of the results of the scrapping process in the first quarter of 2017, detailed in the references 17.0001 to 17.0049, gives the following results:

    - In the refered to the combat/armoured equipment, in this quarter only appeared material coming from the scapping process of AT-T engineering vehicles. Nothing else. Also there is not material of spare parts of no-one type of vehicle offered to auction. All it reinforces the idea of low scrapping activity on armoured vehicles, after the scrapping work related to the last decommission wave being almost totally done.

    - At same time, in the cited references there is a lot of material comming from the scrapping process of land auxiliary vehicles, non armoured. Basically from a good number of truck types with many variants for different roles (transport, engineering variants, radars,...), including variants of the Kamaz-4310, Ural-4320 and many older series, and from trains.

    At this point I expect the liquidation of the AT-T and T-64 based engineering vehicles. Without include the MT-T based engineering vehicles. Older vehicles, including combat T-64 tanks maybe totally finnished today.
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    eehnie
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    Re: Older warfare performance and short/mid-term decomissions

    Post  eehnie on Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:25 pm

    Looking at the performance of the oldest warfare, the evolution of the warfare in the War of Donbass always has been take into account.

    The recent publication of The Military Balance 2017 allows to a comparation between the new data with the data offered just before the begin of the war in The Military Balance 2014.

    These would be the differences in the refered to land warfare (the data would include engineering variants in every case):

    - 100.00% SA-2
    - 100.00% SA-5
    - 100.00% SA-3
    >-100.00% S-60
    >-100.00% ZU-23-2
    > 000.00% D-20

    - 025.00% D-30
    - 021.21% Msta-B
    - 017.43% Giatsint-B
    =000.00% (M)T-12
    =000.00% Nona-K

    >-087.48% First group
    >-010.97% Second group
    >-051.012% Total heavy towed warfare

    - 100.00% FROG-7
    - 027.49% T-64
    =000.00% T-54
    =000.00% T-55

    >-100.00% SA-13 (note the symbol > applied to a negative number: -90>-100)
    >-070.00% BTR-60
    - 038.57% BTR-80
    - 038.00% BTR-70
    - 027.83% BRDM-2
    - 023.08% BDM-2
    - 023.00% BMP-1
    - 020.80% BMP-2
    - 020.00% 2S9
    - 014.71% BM-21
    - 010.00% BMD-1
    =000.00% MT-LB
    =000.00% BTR-D
    not present 2S23
    not present BMD-3
    not present BMD-4

    - 100.00% SA-4
    - 100.00% SS-1 Scud
    >-100.00% SA-8
    - 025.00% 2S5
    - 022.58% SA-11/17
    - 012.96% 2S3
    - 011.03% SA-10/12/20/23
    - 006.25% BM-30
    - 003.03% 2S7
    =000.00% T-80
    =000.00% SS-21
    =000.00% BM-30
    =000.00% SA-19/2S6
    =000.00% BM-27
    =000.00% MT-T
    >000.00% T-72
    +055.48% 2S1

    - 029.14% First group
    >-028.77% Second group
    >-011.52% Third group
    >-023.14% Total mobile land warfare

    >-028.51% Total Sovietic/Russian heavy land warfare


    These data are not giving a recount of loses, this would be the overall difference that the source see on the data after including, war loses, own decommission of material and introduction of new material.

    Also it is necessary to take into account that not all the material listed as present in 2017 or 2014 must be combat ready.

    Taking into account that there are known certified loses for every type of warfare, which data we can see in sources like lostarmour.info, there are data in this information that are not compatible with the total number of war loses plus own decommissions. The data of the Military Balance compared to the data of lostarmour.info is showing how new material of some types has been coming to Ukraine (likely from the rest of the countries to the West of Russia and Belarus). The types of warfare where the data of The Military Balance combined with the data of lostarmour.info would show how Ukraine received external warfare of Sovietic/Russian origin are bolded and marked in red.

    In the case of three types of warfare, the data of The Military Balance 2017 is bigger than the data of The Military Balance 2014, especially the last:

    D-20
    T-72
    2S1

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