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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

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    Cowboy's daughter
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Cowboy's daughter on Mon May 04, 2015 10:26 pm

    auslander wrote: "What kind of shell/ military hardware made that big hole in the apt???"

    Hard to say. From the looks of it whatever it was did not explode but knocked a fair sized hole in the wall. A lot of the determination of the size of the round would depend on the age and original quality of the wall. It is conceivable that a round as 'small' as 5 cm could to such a hole, but in all probability it was rather lager.

    Still and all, the bombardments of patently civilian areas and infrastructure would beg the question of when is Ukraine going to do the first thing to implement the Minsk 2 protocols?

    Thanks, auslander, & what you say is true.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Mr.Comrade on Mon May 04, 2015 10:54 pm

    Nice song about Donbass and the fight against oppressive Ukrainian forces.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  auslander on Mon May 04, 2015 11:10 pm

    Python, you and I both have heard these same arguments for a year. The trolls just can not connect the reasoning behind the fact that part of the country did not accept the coup d'etat in Kiev or the violence immediately inflicted on the citizens while Kiev was still smoldering. The arguments of various and sundry diplomatic agreements being violated is a red herring. Bottom line is they can not fathom how an untrained group of citizens has managed to beat the poorly trained, poorly led and poorly equipped remains of what was once a not bad army at just about every turn.

    They can not understand the motivation of citizens who have watched their factories, businesses, farms and homes relentlessly bombarded to rubble, their relatives, their wives, children, parents and grandparents torn to pieces by these same bombardments. They can not understand that there are times when a man must stand up and defend what is his, what is the fruits of his labors, what is his integrity and what is his very duty to defend and protect his family and his land.

    No, they do not understand or comprehend because they themselves, from their safety of being far from the conflict, can not fathom doing the same for their homes because they do not have the morals and courage to do so. In their minds since they do not have those attributes no one does ergo it must have been something else that defeated the cowardly 'army' that attacked, it must have been the 'north wind', the 'east wind', the 'south wind' that defeated the attackers. The miners and tractor drivers could not possibly have done so because they themselves could not and would not do so.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon May 04, 2015 11:30 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    Those liberators from fascism are protecting the locals, not torturing them

    Yes I know, I know, the Amnesty International and HRW reports.

    Meanwhile we have dozens of actual videos worth of footage, of unarmed locals resisting the Ukrainian army, locals supporting the militia, militiamen proffessing themselves to be locals and recounting their past lives, all sorts of atrocities and crimes by the Ukrainian side, artillery strikes on innocents with the innocents claiming that the Ukrainians are responsible, torture of prisoners, etc...

    I'll believe the line about the militia being Russian invaders, occupiers and unwelcome for the local population, mostly or wholy Russian citizens, torturers, terrorists, etc... when I actually see evidence of it.

    Ukraine made it's own bed in regards to its integrity; as did Georgia, various other post-Soviet countries, and indeed the Soviet Union itself did in 1989-1991.
    Perhaps if it didn't decide to trample on the millions of votes and voices from the East, didn't violently throw out the elected preisdent who had near unanimous support in the Crimea, didn't start with nationalist hysteria and beatings of Party of Regions and Communist deputies in the Rada, etc... then Crimea might not have elected to secede and Russia wouldn't have decided to intervene.
    Perhaps if the Ukrainian government then didn't decide to deal with the protest movement with political repression and arrests, seize control over all the media, use Neo-Nazi hooligans to violently scatter and bully protestors, and perhaps tried to negotiate first with the inevitable civil and then armed uprising that followed.. then the Ukraine wouldn't have lost the Donbass either.

    When Gamsakhurdia of Georgia in 1991 or whenever it was - stated to his supporters that 'Ossetia is a lovely country - only w/o the Ossetians'... well - is it supposed to be any surprise today, to us - that Ossetia split away from Georgia?
    Should one step in for its territorial integrity too? "It was all the evil Russians, you see"..
    The American ambassador to Georgia, after meeting with Gamsakhurdia, promptly relayed to his government his dismay over this man's ideas, and declared him a nut that should not be supported.

    Yet here we are with Kiev, in 2015; using the same sort of language, the same sort of tactics - yet now it's supported.
    Yet now, it's the victim, and its 'territorial integrity is threatened'
    Yet now, it's not fighting against its own people, it's fighting against a Russian invasion.
    Bullshit

    What will it lose next? Dunno, it's up to them and their decisions really. What I've seen so far gives me no grounds for optimism and I see it as very likely that the Ukrainian government will provoke or restart the war, make more mistakes, and ultimately destroy itself and break apart its own country even further.

    I'm curious, what's your opinion about russians putting down the tambov rebellion?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  auslander on Mon May 04, 2015 11:37 pm

    I'm curious, what's your opinion about russians putting down the tambov rebellion?[/quote]

    If you are going to troll, try to at least pick a subject that is not almost a century old. As an aside, might not be the first but this is the last of any converse I'll have with you. Go to Kiev, sign up and go east to fight.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon May 04, 2015 11:38 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:IMO, Ukraine's goal is to inflict such casualties upon the enemy that their public will demand peace. Territorial gains are only secondary.

    This has to be the most stupid idea ever. So Ukraine a country that is currently a dead corpse in lieu of state, is going to inflict casualties so that would be unbearable to who? The "Republics"? Are  you by any chance a former MP.net member? This "peace through bodycount" narrative, I have already heard, in a MP.net thread over...Viet Nam, Afghanistan etc...

    It doesn't work because be it VIet Nam, Afghanistan or even the Republics, don't operate out of a Vacuum. They have backers. In this case it is Russia. Hell will long be frozen before Russia is beaten by Ukraine in an attrition battle.

    Then off course, we can also become more logical and see that this is low quality trolling, that amounts to describing the Ukrainian strategy as attempting to produce an humanitarian catastrophe wich falls within some of the guidelines issued by the UN to identify a genocidary action. More to the point, the distinct aiming at civillian utilities in order to disrupt normal course of life with the intention to render unhospitable the area of target is typically forbidden.

    Rome Charter. wrote: a) Killing members of the group;
    (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


    So yeah basically European Values.

    If ukraine needs to follow the rules of some charters, maybe the beloved russia should too?
    Of course, you can't bring back all the innocent people tortured to death by "liberators from fascism", but upholding budapest agreement respecting ukraine's integrity should be a pretty good start.

    This is getting tricky, you're saying that Ukraine's goal is to commit a genocide, and then proceed to whatabout Russia over International Law (which by any means we know is superseeded by humanitarian Law, as per Kosovo case).

    So tell me again, what Genocidary actions have the Separatists committed, when it comes to this case? Have they forbidden the language? Have they set up camps to "de-Ukropize" civilians? Have they started mass deportations through constant shelling of Kiev or even Dnipropetrovsk?

    I'll repeat it again, so you can understand how deranged your statement is.

    You are saying that the Ukrainian goal isn't to restore its territorial integrity or sovereignty, but to cleanse (by fire) those areas of dissent. Ukraine's course of action isn't about rules, dear sir, it is about deliberate suffering of civilians in order to achieve a "national identity". I don't even need to explain what that sounds like, because its is self-explanatory.

    So yeah Evro values.

    Anyway, just to satisfy my curiosity, are you or have you ever been a member of MP.net.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon May 04, 2015 11:46 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Anyway, just to satisfy my curiosity, are you or have you ever been a member of MP.net.

    No.



    And you are correct, ukraine's goal is genocide. Now, I understand that for your prorussian allegiance, it might be difficult to go past all the nazi, bandera, evilness cliches, but try to imagine yourself in the shoes of ukraine leadership. And here you're seeing all of those separatist warlords boasting how they'll drive for kiev. Wouldn't it be a matter of serious concern for maintaining your country's survival, to the point where every possible war strategy may become viable?

    Or do you think that ukies are actually wishing to do what they've been doing, and not forced by the circumstances?


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Mon May 04, 2015 11:58 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  gregoire on Mon May 04, 2015 11:51 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:

    If ukraine needs to follow the rules of some charters, maybe the beloved russia should too?
    Of course, you can't bring back all the innocent people tortured to death by "liberators from fascism", but upholding budapest agreement respecting ukraine's integrity should be a pretty good start.

    Were did you learn to write like this? In just a few sentences you made people jump up to correct you for what is in essence just gibberish. No offense of course but it is nonsense. Won't start to correct you, sorry.

    And yes. Ukraine wants its genocide.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Tue May 05, 2015 12:10 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:And you are correct, ukraine's goal is genocide. Now, I understand that for your prorussian allegiance, it might be difficult to go past all the nazi, bandera, evilness cliches, but try to imagine yourself in the shoes of ukraine leadership. And here you're seeing all of those separatist warlords boasting how they'll drive for kiev. Wouldn't it be a matter of serious concern for maintaining your country's survival, to the point where every possible war strategy may become viable?

    There weren't any "separatist warlords" who could threaten Kiev when the new Ukrainian leadership started its undeclared war in spring 2014.

    etaepsilonk wrote:Or do you think that ukies are actually wishing to do what they've been doing, and not forced by the circumstances?

    Kiev would rather burn down Donbass  than compromising with the people in that region.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality on Tue May 05, 2015 12:12 am

    A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 05, 2015 12:14 am

    Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

    Depends which opposition members. So far, the liberal opposition are pretty much insignificant. Like single digit in terms of popularity. Fair Russia, Just Russia and Communist parties are quite popular.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  whir on Tue May 05, 2015 12:15 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:Or do you think that ukies are actually wishing to do what they've been doing, and not forced by the circumstances?
    The same way a husband beats his wife because she forces him to do it Rolling Eyes.


    Last edited by whir on Tue May 05, 2015 12:22 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Werewolf on Tue May 05, 2015 12:16 am

    Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

    That is treason and a reason for throwing out scum out of the country.

    Seriously, It is like Putin comes to germany to meet with Sahra Wagenknecht and to have a speak on who Putin should sanction in Germany, that of course would be counted as treason, but not as long it is the russian opposition.

    The hypocrisy...

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality on Tue May 05, 2015 12:17 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

    Depends which opposition members.  So far, the liberal opposition are pretty much insignificant.  Like single digit in terms of popularity.  Fair Russia, Just Russia and Communist parties are quite popular.

    Lenta reports the following names: Navalny (duh), Yashin, Volkov and Milov. The last two I have never even heard of. And ofcourse they'll be pushing the Nemtsov card.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 05, 2015 12:19 am

    Neutrality wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

    Depends which opposition members.  So far, the liberal opposition are pretty much insignificant.  Like single digit in terms of popularity.  Fair Russia, Just Russia and Communist parties are quite popular.

    Lenta reports the following names: Navalny (duh), Yashin, Volkov and Milov. The last two I have never even heard of. And ofcourse they'll be pushing the Nemtsov card.

    They can push whatever. Navalny's party was revoked rights to participate from my memory, meaning he is a nobody for sure. And the rest? They give themselves up at least. And the fact that they are already not liked in their own country, by their own ratings, I would wager that this is pure nothingness but a waste of time. Maybe a good laugh or getting more info as to who these people are and getting to discredit them (easy really, since they do do it to themselves).

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality on Tue May 05, 2015 12:19 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    That is treason and a reason for throwing out scum out of the country.

    Seriously, It is like Putin comes to germany to meet with Sahra Wagenknecht and to have a speak on who Putin should sanction in Germany, that of course would be counted as treason, but not as long it is the russian opposition.

    The hypocrisy...

    Well it's like I said, they are digging their own grave. All that needs to happen is publishing this news and the citizens will see for themselves how much these scumbags love their country.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  auslander on Tue May 05, 2015 12:22 am

    Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

    But..but...but...aren't the more pragmatic posters elsewhere saying Mother Merkel is actually in desire of more close ties to Russia? Hmmm. Perhaps General Shoigu should go to Berlin and meet the German opposition.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 05, 2015 12:23 am

    Putin recently met with former Prime Minister of Canada Chretien. That really pissed off Harper.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  Neutrality on Tue May 05, 2015 12:25 am

    sepheronx wrote:Putin recently met with former Prime Minister of Canada Chretien.  That really pissed off Harper.

    Yeah I remember Putin received several former leaders like Anan and Carter. What exactly did Harper say and was Chretien slashed for the visit in the Canadian media?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 05, 2015 12:26 am

    Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

    ''Opposition'' pretty much gave up on ever becoming a ''position''.

    All they can do now is to relentlessly kiss their sponsor's asses in order to squeeze every possible penny from them and hope that this final source of cash does not dry out.

    That would be their final remaining plan in a nutshell... scum they were, scum they remain attack

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 05, 2015 12:27 am

    Neutrality wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Putin recently met with former Prime Minister of Canada Chretien.  That really pissed off Harper.

    Yeah I remember Putin received several former leaders like Anan and Carter. What exactly did Harper say and was Chretien slashed for the visit in the Canadian media?

    Not really, no.  He wasn't lambasted or anything.  Which came as a surprise.  Harper demanded to know what they talked about, but of course Chretien is former leader of opposition and I doubt he will give full details other than what he can say to media.  All I remember reading was Harper was fuming.  Can't say I agree with it but of course, if our leaders can do it to the Russians, then the Russians can do it to us.

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

    ''Opposition'' pretty much gave up on ever becoming a ''position''.

    All they can  do now is to relentlessly kiss their sponsor's asses in order to squeeze every possible penny from them  and hope that this final source of cash does not dry out.

    That would be their final remaining plan in a nutshell... scum they were, scum they remain attack

    This I agree with. With the fact that Nemtsov's party had less than 1% popularity and the others combined may have 2 - 3 % popularity, they are screwed regardless. That and majority of them are former Duma members of the 90's and most of them have a ton of skeletons in the closet (If TR1 was here, he would say that so does current Duma members, which probably is true), and have proven to be piss poor leaders in their time. So they will never gain the popularity they once had. So the only thing they can do is continue on their tirade, cause outside of that, they are useless and would be jobless. Only issue now is that with nationalism on the rise in Russia, there could be other potential killings in the future.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue May 05, 2015 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue May 05, 2015 12:27 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    Anyway, just to satisfy my curiosity, are you or have you ever been a member of MP.net.

    No.



    And you are correct, ukraine's goal is genocide. Now, I understand that for your prorussian allegiance, it might be difficult to go past all the nazi, bandera, evilness cliches, but try to imagine yourself in the shoes of ukraine leadership. And here you're seeing all of those separatist warlords boasting how they'll drive for kiev. Wouldn't it be a matter of serious concern for maintaining your country's survival, to the point where every possible war strategy may become viable?

    Or do you think that ukies are actually wishing to do what they've been doing, and not forced by the circumstances?

    I don't need to imagine anything. I have a vivid idea on how it works out, trying to root out people of their land. Albeit this is a kind of blasphemy here, Yugolsavia is a great example (not) on how you lose everything, when yo try to retain everything, by force.
    Then, if your "regime" hangs by the kind of thread, that sees a 30+ million strong country unable to cope with a roughly 20K strong "army",that can be severed is such an easy fashion, well you have no business being a country in the first place. And here it isn't Kosovo, that was quickly subdued by Serbia. This is Ukraine being kicked the living **** out of it in a single year.

    I don't want to venture into statistics, because they're unflattering, but Ukraine's leadership chose a path. While knowing it would have to deal with the biggest mother***** in the area first and foremost. And that MoFo told Ukraine it better be neutral.

    But now something to cure your mind. I don't think Ukraine is after a genocide. I think Ukraine has lost the game, and it just doesn't want to deal with it. So it is dragging a conflict out of necessity. This doesn't mean they are looking to create a desert East of the Dnepr, they just want to stay relevant.

    You claim is utterly ridiculous, and shows the lack of understanding of the kind of people that rule Ukraine. These aren't war criminals, they are simply thiefs and thugs doing what thieves and thugs do best, breaking things in order for people to look away from their real actions.

    Tis just a sting, and the Ukrainian people are the Turkey.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  whir on Tue May 05, 2015 12:32 am

    auslander wrote:But..but...but...aren't the more pragmatic posters elsewhere saying Mother Merkel is actually in desire of more close ties to Russia? Hmmm. Perhaps General Shoigu should go to Berlin and meet the German opposition.
    It's not like Germany can find another 150 millions market that pays European prices a short drive from Berlin anywhere else. She's just trying to have the cake and eat it.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue May 05, 2015 12:33 am

    auslander wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

    But..but...but...aren't the more pragmatic posters elsewhere saying Mother Merkel is actually in desire of more close ties to Russia? Hmmm. Perhaps General Shoigu should go to Berlin and meet the German opposition.

    Nope, we need to resurrect Nikita and send them back...We will not fvck you up. clown






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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue May 05, 2015 12:33 am

    Neutrality wrote:A bit off-topic maybe, "Izvestia" has published an article (sorry, I can't post external links as I'm still considered "new") and the article says that Merkel is apparently planning to meet the Russian opposition leaders on May 10th. They'll ask her to keep the sanctions and strengthen them against certain individuals because it's apparently the only way to change the government. lol1

    RIP to the Russian opposition. Putin doesn't have to do anything, they are destroying themselves.

    I haven't seen that report on any other news channel.
    I think the report from Izvestia is bovine excrement.

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