etaepsilonk wrote: KoTeMoRe wrote:
etaepsilonk wrote:IMO, Ukraine's goal is to inflict such casualties upon the enemy that their public will demand peace. Territorial gains are only secondary.
This has to be the most stupid idea ever. So Ukraine a country that is currently a dead corpse in lieu of state, is going to inflict casualties so that would be unbearable to who? The "Republics"? Are you by any chance a former MP.net member? This "peace through bodycount" narrative, I have already heard, in a MP.net thread over...Viet Nam, Afghanistan etc...
It doesn't work because be it VIet Nam, Afghanistan or even the Republics, don't operate out of a Vacuum. They have backers. In this case it is Russia. Hell will long be frozen before Russia is beaten by Ukraine in an attrition battle.
Then off course, we can also become more logical and see that this is low quality trolling, that amounts to describing the Ukrainian strategy as attempting to produce an humanitarian catastrophe wich falls within some of the guidelines issued by the UN to identify a genocidary action. More to the point, the distinct aiming at civillian utilities in order to disrupt normal course of life with the intention to render unhospitable the area of target is typically forbidden.
Rome Charter. wrote: a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
So yeah basically European Values.
If ukraine needs to follow the rules of some charters, maybe the beloved russia should too?
Of course, you can't bring back all the innocent people tortured to death by "liberators from fascism", but upholding budapest agreement respecting ukraine's integrity should be a pretty good start.
Those liberators from fascism are protecting the locals, not torturing them
Yes I know, I know, the Amnesty International and HRW reports.
Meanwhile we have dozens of actual videos worth of footage, of unarmed locals resisting the Ukrainian army, locals supporting the militia, militiamen proffessing themselves to be locals and recounting their past lives, all sorts of atrocities and crimes by the Ukrainian side, artillery strikes on innocents with the innocents claiming that the Ukrainians are responsible, torture of prisoners, etc...
I'll believe the line about the militia being Russian invaders, occupiers and unwelcome for the local population, mostly or wholy Russian citizens, torturers, terrorists, etc... when I actually see evidence of it.
Ukraine made it's own bed in regards to its integrity; as did Georgia, various other post-Soviet countries, and indeed the Soviet Union itself did in 1989-1991.
Perhaps if it didn't decide to trample on the millions of votes and voices from the East, didn't violently throw out the elected preisdent who had near unanimous support in the Crimea, didn't start with nationalist hysteria and beatings of Party of Regions and Communist deputies in the Rada, etc... then Crimea might not have elected to secede and Russia wouldn't have decided to intervene.
Perhaps if the Ukrainian government then didn't decide to deal with the protest movement with political repression and arrests, seize control over all the media, use Neo-Nazi hooligans to violently scatter and bully protestors, and perhaps tried to negotiate first with the inevitable civil and then armed uprising that followed.. then the Ukraine wouldn't have lost the Donbass either.
When Gamsakhurdia of Georgia in 1991 or whenever it was - stated to his supporters that 'Ossetia is a lovely country - only w/o the Ossetians'... well - is it supposed to be any surprise today, to us - that Ossetia split away from Georgia?
Should one step in for its territorial integrity too? "It was all the evil Russians, you see"..
The American ambassador to Georgia, after meeting with Gamsakhurdia, promptly relayed to his government his dismay over this man's ideas, and declared him a nut that should not be supported.
Yet here we are with Kiev, in 2015; using the same sort of language, the same sort of tactics - yet now it's supported.
Yet now, it's the victim, and its 'territorial integrity is threatened'
Yet now, it's not fighting against its own people, it's fighting against a Russian invasion.
What will it lose next? Dunno, it's up to them and their decisions really. What I've seen so far gives me no grounds for optimism and I see it as very likely that the Ukrainian government will provoke or restart the war, make more mistakes, and ultimately destroy itself and break apart its own country even further.