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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

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    KomissarBojanchev
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed May 27, 2015 6:13 am

    There is still no explanation how the 7,62 PKT is so superior in performance for an AA MG while 12,7mm such as the modern light kord is such obsolete useless garbage...

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed May 27, 2015 8:44 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:There is still no explanation how the 7,62 PKT is so superior in performance for an AA MG while 12,7mm such as the modern light kord is such obsolete useless garbage...

    It isn't....the only thing I can think of is that you can have more ammo for the PKT

    Hezbollah has M1's, and in all likelihood Iran as examined them in detail. It wouldn't be beyond belief that Russian and Chinese engineers have also studied the complete Iraqi/Hezbollah samples.

    They're Iraqi M1's AFAIK....the people posing with them are most likely the Iraqi branch of Hezbollah but I doubt they have them in their inventory


    Book. wrote:Egypt the Tor Pecho2 Buk

    Russia it monk model


    Monk model Question

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 27, 2015 8:54 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    Russia it monk model

    Monk model Question





    like this? lol1

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Book. on Wed May 27, 2015 9:27 am

    Russia sell monk kit

    for safety

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 27, 2015 10:00 am

    There is still no explanation how the 7,62 PKT is so superior in performance for an AA MG while 12,7mm such as the modern light kord is such obsolete useless garbage...

    Just because it is mounted on the roof of the turret of the vehicle does not mean it is an anti aircraft weapon.

    Many many decades ago then a 12.7mm HMG would be a useful anti aircraft gun for a tank simply because its fire control systems and ammo weren't up to taking on aircraft of any type at any range and any chance of a hit would be a fluke.

    These days with all weather day night optics and advanced fire control systems an attack helo is dead meat within 3-4km, a range band for which a 12.7mm is not so useful.

    That means that the roof mounted gun wont be used against enemy attack helos popping up from cover 2km away or less to fire a slow subsonic anti tank missile at you... most of the time it will be used against enemy troops that appear near the vehicle... for which a 7.62mm calibre MG is perfectly adequate... and more importantly you can carry 2,3 or 4,000 rounds of ready to use ammo, compared with the 300-400 rounds of 12.7mm ammo that could fit in the same space.

    Of course you have to remember the Armata MBT wont be operating on their own... a nearby IFV version with a 30mm or 45mm cannon would be far better equipped to deal with enemy aircraft... especially if the troops have a Verba MANPADS in the troop compartment...

    BTW obviously Monkey downgraded for export model that is not the same as the Russian service model... just like that Abrams...

    The headline claims Egypt will be considered for export when domestic demand is met... as mentioned by someone that could be some time... likely after 2025.  By that time they will likely have developed an export model... perhaps with Iraqi parts and components... and weapons optimised for Iraqi needs.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed May 27, 2015 11:02 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:There is still no explanation how the 7,62 PKT is so superior in performance for an AA MG while 12,7mm such as the modern light kord is such obsolete useless garbage...


    In the following, I have reproduced my post from page 54 of this forum. You can find the answer to your question in it. Garry has also directly responded to your question.


    It is also important not to call this PKTM an AA MG or a commander's MG just because it is high up there. It is the role and the technology that defines it. By the way, this PKTM has an antimissile (active armor) role also.


    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:T-14 doesn't seem to have a coaxial MG. I think here are some of the possible rationals.


    1- The remotely controlled MG has probably enough stowage of ammunition to perform the role of a coax. Especially that it's controllable by any of the crew-members and also automatically. It can even follow the main gun if it is so wished. I think this is the primary explanation.

    This also explains the choice of a 7.62 mm MG over a 12.7 mm one.


    2- The various main gun rounds that have anti-personnel capabilities, in conjunction with remote fusing and sensor fusing, also in conjunction to the main gun's large ammunition stowage, can cover a lot of the coax roles.


    3- The tank's various defensive subsystems can also have general and specialized anti-personnel capabilities that can satisfy part of the requirements for a coax.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Flyboy77 on Wed May 27, 2015 1:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    There is still no explanation how the 7,62 PKT is so superior in performance for an AA MG while 12,7mm such as the modern light kord is such obsolete useless garbage...

    Just because it is mounted on the roof of the turret of the vehicle does not mean it is an anti aircraft weapon.

    Many many decades ago then a 12.7mm HMG would be a useful anti aircraft gun for a tank simply because its fire control systems and ammo weren't up to taking on aircraft of any type at any range and any chance of a hit would be a fluke.

    These days with all weather day night optics and advanced fire control systems an attack helo is dead meat within 3-4km, a range band for which a 12.7mm is not so useful.

    That means that the roof mounted gun wont be used against enemy attack helos popping up from cover 2km away or less to fire a slow subsonic anti tank missile at you... most of the time it will be used against enemy troops that appear near the vehicle... for which a 7.62mm calibre MG is perfectly adequate... and more importantly you can carry 2,3 or 4,000 rounds of ready to use ammo, compared with the 300-400 rounds of 12.7mm ammo that could fit in the same space.

    Of course you have to remember the Armata MBT wont be operating on their own... a nearby IFV version with a 30mm or 45mm cannon would be far better equipped to deal with enemy aircraft... especially if the troops have a Verba MANPADS in the troop compartment...
    .

    I agree that the commander MG being used as a AA gun is not really of any use today and frankly I think its always been a bit of a stupid idea. Even a few decades ago before modern A-G missile were introduced onto helos, it would taken some luck to get a Helo in a position where the commander could get an accurate shot off.

    Though I still believe that the 12.7mm gun is still useful today especially where we are seeing more and more conflicts taking place in urban areas. When you have anti-tank infantry using building as cover a 7.62mm isn't always going to cut it while the 12.7mm has the penetrating power to shot throw I would say 90% of the urban cover that's out there.

    That being said I think that the Commander gun will be interchangeable. So I wouldn't worry to much

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 27, 2015 2:52 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote: By the way, this PKTM has an antimissile (active armor) role also.


    can you elaborate it a bit please?

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed May 27, 2015 4:36 pm

    Flyboy77 wrote:
    I agree that the commander MG being used as a AA gun is not really of any use today and frankly I think its always been a bit of a stupid idea. Even a few decades ago before modern A-G missile were introduced onto helos, it would taken some luck to get a Helo in a position where the commander could get an accurate shot off.

    Though I still believe that the 12.7mm gun is still useful today especially where we are seeing more and more conflicts taking place in urban areas. When you have anti-tank infantry using building as cover a 7.62mm isn't always going to cut it  while the 12.7mm has the penetrating power to shot throw I would say 90% of the urban cover that's out there.

    That being said I think that the Commander gun will be interchangeable. So I wouldn't worry to much
    yup, the people who will operate this would replace that PKT with a proper Kord lickety-split. ammo capacity wont be a problem either, in fact with the PKT's humongous ammo load this becomes a case of too much of a good thing that its bad. see, a commander's MG is very much an "oh shit" weapon, ideally as hunter in hunter-killer team the MG is used to dispose of light and often very time sensitive targets like some dude popping up from a trench to aim an RPG while the main gun is brought to bear. 500 rounds of more effective 12.7mm is what you want/need for those fleeting targets rather 2000 lighter rounds which would likely just outlast the main gun ammo supply and means wasted capacity since you have to return and top up anyways.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Regular on Wed May 27, 2015 5:27 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:There is still no explanation how the 7,62 PKT is so superior in performance for an AA MG while 12,7mm such as the modern light kord is such obsolete useless garbage...
    Kord is superior in all aspects, best hmg in the world. Coax version looks awesome.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Werewolf on Wed May 27, 2015 5:47 pm

    Regular wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:There is still no explanation how the 7,62 PKT is so superior in performance for an AA MG while 12,7mm such as the modern light kord is such obsolete useless garbage...
    Kord is superior in all aspects, best hmg in the world. Coax version looks awesome.

    Where did you see a Kord coax MG on a tank?

    Can you post a picture?

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed May 27, 2015 5:55 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Regular wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:There is still no explanation how the 7,62 PKT is so superior in performance for an AA MG while 12,7mm such as the modern light kord is such obsolete useless garbage...
    Kord is superior in all aspects, best hmg in the world. Coax version looks awesome.

    Where did you see a Kord coax MG on a tank?

    Can you post a picture?
    the French Leclerc's have a .50 cal as coax. its the shitty m2 tho. and yeah, a Kord as coax would work too. sharing that very stable main gun mount you can use it as an automatic sniper rifle.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed May 27, 2015 6:16 pm

    And I answered all your theories, but it looks like nobody read them...

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:T-14 doesn't seem to have a coaxial MG. I think here are some of the possible rationals.

    Those are some pretty shitty rationales that aren't grounded in reality or any past war experience.
    Let's hope today's russian engineers haven't fallen to this level of design lazyness.

    When designing an AFV  the word "enough" shouldn't exist, every AFV should BE CRAMMED THE LARGEST FIREPOWER TECHNOLOGICALLY POSSIBLE until there's a threat of degrading performance in other categories.


    1- The remotely controlled MG has probably enough stowage of ammunition to perform the role of a coax. Especially that it's controllable by any of the crew-members and also automatically. It can even follow the main gun if it is so wished. I think this is the primary explanation.

    This also explains the choice of a 7.62 mm MG over a 12.7 mm one.
    What if an AMR destroys the RWS? WHat if the circuitry malfunctions? Do you truly think its a great idea to waste precious tank rounds for something an MG can do? What if the TC is wounded and can't operate the RWS? What if the RWS jams? Why do russian engineers suddenly start hating backups?
    Also an RWS has far less ammo load than a coaxial MG. While this doesn't mean the RWS shouldn't exist, this proves the coax  also can make a huge difference and is, has been and will be the deadliest and most indispensable MG mount for a massive variety of combat situations. The RWS, like the hull MG will always have an assisting or equal role no matter how many gadgets you cram it with.

    2- The various main gun rounds that have anti-personnel capabilities, in conjunction with remote fusing and sensor fusing, also in conjunction to the main gun's large ammunition stowage, can cover a lot of the coax roles.
    Why waste an HE-FRAG shell when an enemy can be killed by exponentially cheaper coaxial 7,62mm burst? WHat if there are civilians around the enemy than can be minced as well?



    The 12,7 will forever be more useful than a rifle calibre gun for an RWS because:
    Can completely pierce body armor

    Has far better range making it easier to take out ATGM operators, snipers or HMG operators

    Can penetrate light armored vehicles or act far better as a last resort AA weapon when wasting an expensive ATGM isn't worth it

    Can penetrate cover


    3- The tank's various defensive subsystems can also have general and specialized anti-personnel capabilities that can satisfy part of the requirements for a coax.

    And what exactly are those subsystems. And since when did APS or ECM systems= machine guns?

    PS:These IMO are the best armaments for the finished T-14:
    1x125mm 2A82
    1x12,7mm commander sights kord
    1xPKTM coaxial
    1x 57mm AGL

    Or:
    1x152mm gun
    1x12,7mm coaxial kord
    1x23mm coaxial AC
    1x commander's sights 57mm AGL


    Last edited by KomissarBojanchev on Wed May 27, 2015 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Werewolf on Wed May 27, 2015 6:27 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    the French Leclerc's have a .50 cal as coax. its the shitty m2 tho. and yeah, a Kord as coax would work too. sharing that very stable main gun mount you can use it as an automatic sniper rifle.

    The M2 Browning isn't shitty. It is quite good looking at its performance and looking when it was produced (6 more years and it is 100 years old) It's moderate and no cost effecient HMG have been produced in the west to replace it and that is why it is still in service, surely not the best but better than GPMG.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Zivo on Wed May 27, 2015 9:26 pm

    The 12.7 vs 7.62 pros and cons have been covered. But keep in mind, most handheld anti-tank weapons have < 1km max range, putting them well within the PKTM's envelope. ATGM's have ~5km effective range, well beyond the 12.7mm's envelope. However, there's no law that says you cant launch an ATGM at 1km. The FGM-148 has 2km max range, its envelope extends beyond the 7.62mm PKTM's effective range but still within the Kord's effective range.

    IMO, the PKTM is the better choice. Disagree if you want, but beyond 1km the poor commander will practically be sniping at pin sized targets who will immediately start to scatter and disappear in the terrain clutter. The best option is either to go conservative and have high ammo count and cover the < 1km envelope of handheld AT weapons, or go overboard and use a bigger round with a larger HE payload like 23mm, either 23x152B or 23x115mm that can effectively smoke targets at 2km+. 23mm has been kicking ass in Syria and Iraq for a long time now. I'm not even sure what's so appealing about the tiny western-style remote weapon stations, lighten up a freaking ZU-23-2, add a camera and stabilizer, then bolt that 50 year old turd onto the T-14's roof.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 27, 2015 9:42 pm

    Zivo wrote:The 12.7 vs 7.62 pros and cons have been covered. But keep in mind, most handheld anti-tank weapons have < 1km max range, putting them well within the PKTM's envelope. ATGM's have ~5km effective range, well beyond the 12.7mm's envelope. However, there's no law that says you cant launch an ATGM at 1km. The FGM-148 has 2km max range, its envelope extends beyond the 7.62mm PKTM's effective range but still within the Kord's effective range.

    IMO, the PKTM is the better choice. Disagree if you want, but beyond 1km the poor commander will practically be sniping at pin sized targets who will immediately start to scatter and disappear in the terrain clutter. The best option is either to go conservative and have high ammo count and cover the < 1km envelope of handheld AT weapons, or go overboard and use a bigger round with a larger HE payload like 23mm, either 23x152B or 23x115mm that can effectively smoke targets at 2km+. 23mm has been kicking ass in Syria and Iraq for a long time now. I'm not even sure what the appeal of having tiny western style RWS is, lighten up a freaking ZU-23-2, add a camera and stabilizer,  than bolt that 50 year old turd onto the T-14's roof.

    Well it seems similar to your vision was already proposed as one of T-14 variations in 2012



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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Zivo on Wed May 27, 2015 9:56 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Zivo wrote:The 12.7 vs 7.62 pros and cons have been covered. But keep in mind, most handheld anti-tank weapons have < 1km max range, putting them well within the PKTM's envelope. ATGM's have ~5km effective range, well beyond the 12.7mm's envelope. However, there's no law that says you cant launch an ATGM at 1km. The FGM-148 has 2km max range, its envelope extends beyond the 7.62mm PKTM's effective range but still within the Kord's effective range.

    IMO, the PKTM is the better choice. Disagree if you want, but beyond 1km the poor commander will practically be sniping at pin sized targets who will immediately start to scatter and disappear in the terrain clutter. The best option is either to go conservative and have high ammo count and cover the < 1km envelope of handheld AT weapons, or go overboard and use a bigger round with a larger HE payload like 23mm, either 23x152B or 23x115mm that can effectively smoke targets at 2km+. 23mm has been kicking ass in Syria and Iraq for a long time now. I'm not even sure what the appeal of having tiny western style RWS is, lighten up a freaking ZU-23-2, add a camera and stabilizer,  than bolt that 50 year old turd onto the T-14's roof.

    Well it seems similar to your vision was already proposed as one of T-14 variations in 2012


    In regards to commander RWS, not the auxiliary weapons which seem to have been ruled out. One example of using 23x115mm in a non-traditional roll is on the T-64E. Granted, the placement and the RWS design itself is rather terrible, you can see how compact they can be made, the rounds themselves are not much larger than 12.7mm, yet are more effective in the anti-infantry roll. 7.62mm and 12.7mm are NOT the only options available.



    I think AFV designers need to start looking outside of the typical conventions. These machines are going to run into a wide array of ever evolving threats and they need flexible weapons. The commander's RWS is a good place to start, as it's a bolt on module that can be easily changed.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Brovich on Wed May 27, 2015 10:41 pm

    Trying to explain the Armata's turret situation, after some back and forth because of a lack of understanding I decided to make this:


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed May 27, 2015 11:40 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:And I answered all your theories, but it looks like nobody read them...

    I had read your response.

    But, do you call the following an "answer"?

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Those are some pretty shitty rationales that aren't grounded in reality or any past war experience.

    ———————————————————————————————————————

    You obviously think some of your other points are correct. They are not.

    When designing an AFV  the word "enough" shouldn't exist, every AFV should BE CRAMMED THE LARGEST FIREPOWER TECHNOLOGICALLY POSSIBLE until there's a threat of degrading performance in other categories

    Even according to this "view", a 12.7 mm MG would not allow for enough ammunition stowage for it to fulfill the coax role. This also answers the assertion made by Regular in his post about Kord.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed May 27, 2015 11:47 pm; edited 3 times in total

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed May 27, 2015 11:42 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote: By the way, this PKTM has an antimissile (active armor) role also.


    can you elaborate it a bit please?

    I am going to work now. I'll elaborate after coming back from work.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 28, 2015 11:15 am

    Kord is superior in all aspects, best hmg in the world. Coax version looks awesome.

    I agree... quite often it is far superior to any 7.62 calibre weapon, but often it is overkill.

    What if an AMR destroys the RWS? WHat if the circuitry malfunctions? Do you truly think its a great idea to waste precious tank rounds for something an MG can do? What if the TC is wounded and can't operate the RWS? What if the RWS jams? Why do russian engineers suddenly start hating backups?

    What makes you think there is no coaxial MG on the Armata?

    If the TC is wounded or has a heart attack the gunner and driver share related control stations and could take over.

    What if the whole turret jams... should it have two turrets and two main guns... just for backup.

    The 12.7 vs 7.62 pros and cons have been covered.

    Zivo raises some good points... when the enemy scatters the best round to fire at them is one that explodes... a good 40mm or 57mm grenade launcher would be rather more useful than any type of MG...

    In regards to commander RWS, not the auxiliary weapons which seem to have been ruled out. One example of using 23x115mm in a non-traditional roll is on the T-64E. Granted, the placement and the RWS design itself is rather terrible, you can see how compact they can be made, the rounds themselves are not much larger than 12.7mm, yet are more effective in the anti-infantry roll. 7.62mm and 12.7mm are NOT the only options available.

    Added that the enormous rate of fire of the twin barrel 23mm cannon means that the rounds arrive on target like a shotgun blast that is impossible to dodge... rather than a string of shots like the 30 x 165mm...


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu May 28, 2015 12:08 pm

    Before somebody raising the matter about many Russian heavy tanks having HMG's as their coaxes, I should mention that the tactical-technical-technological situation is different in those cases and don't apply here.

    From memory, some of the examples are T-10M, with 14.5 mm KPVT HMGs both as the coax and as the commander's MG, and T-10A and T-10B, with 12.7 DShKMT HMGs both as the coax and as the commander's MG.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu May 28, 2015 12:34 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote: By the way, this PKTM has an antimissile (active armor) role also.


    can you elaborate it a bit please?


    This PKTM and the other weapons on T-14 are all integrated with the AESAs, optical sensors, and the automatic/autonomous fire control systems on the tank; so the tank's integrated weapon system can use the PKTM to shoot down an ATGW, just as well as that of using the primary APS rounds for this purpose.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu May 28, 2015 1:07 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote: By the way, this PKTM has an antimissile (active armor) role also.


    can you elaborate it a bit please?


    This PKTM and the other weapons on T-14 are all integrated with the AESAs, optical sensors, and the automatic/autonomous fire control systems on the tank; so the tank's integrated weapon system can use the PKTM to shoot down an ATGW, just as well as that of using the primary APS rounds for this purpose.

    The PKT would be rather more useful to target the source of fire instead of taking on the ATGM in flight. Most ATGM's being rather slow (200-250 m/s after PoF) the distance traveled would equate usually to at least 4/5 seconds within the PKT envelope. Beyond that timeframe the tank would have the chance to start a manoeuvre, initiate a softkill/hardkill sequence instead of using the PKT for that task. This is how the Trophy APS works. APS defends from incoming M2 enslaved with turret points towards source of fire.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

    Post  xeno on Thu May 28, 2015 1:36 pm

    The official expression of the weight of Armata is coming as per Corporate edition of "Uralvagonzavod" journal



    The weight of Armata is менее 55
    Less than 55(t)

    So it is not 48t. It is not 50t
    It is between 50t and 55t...

    You can download journal here
    http://technowars.ru/assets/content/article/174/tw-3-2015-cut.pdf

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

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