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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

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    HM1199
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  HM1199 on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:02 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    HM1199 wrote:guys i'd like to clear something up about the pak fa , those engines it has currently are not bad , its just that people are not  really understanding where is the problem .
    currently , they give off 147 kn of thrust each , which is only 9 kn less thrust compared to the f22 , considering the pak fa weighs 18 tons empty , the "empty" thrust to weight ratio is 1.66 , while the f22 weighs 19.8 t , its "empty" t/w ratio is 1.60.
    also , those engines proppel the pak fa at 2600 km/h (faster than f22) which is very decent , and give it a range of 3500 km (more than f22)which is really good , plus it has 3d tvc .

    so if the pak fa's current engines give it more kinematical performance than its rival , the f22 , where is the problem??
    well the problem is that , if you look at the documentary , russia has required engines not to be only good now , but would still be competetive in the 2030's and 2020's , and thats why they are making the new engine , too keep the pak fa's kinematical capability updated throughout the years .

    and its funny that the nationnal interest says that its a fatal flaw , how can this be really a flaw?

    also , guys i really need to ask you for some help , i am making a pak fa vs f22 video , and i need the range of the pak fa's main radar , some say its 400km , some say its more than 400km because its an upgraded version of the irbis e that already had 400km of range , and that the byelka's 400 km figure was given in 2009 , before it was completed .

    please help .

    It all depends on how many T/R modules it has and of which variant.  Old tests were with 10W - 15W GaAS modukes while Russia has also been working on GaN modules as well that could be rated between 15W - 30W.  Rostec has also been working on reducing size and heat of the T/R modules so they could possibly fit more than the proposed 1500 modules.  Power supplied from the PSU is said to be the same as the Irbis E takes from the Su-35S which is 20Kw.  It is also said that N036 is a AESA variant of Irbis E (N035) so that is where the speculated performance comes from.

    But we have not heard much about the N036 for some time.  Just what Kret/Rostec says.


    well yeah but ive heared that the pak fa uses low temperature ceramic technology in its modules . same technology used in the armata's radar , and those can detect 0.3 sqm targets from 100 km away and with a very small antenna !
    thats a lot of power dished out .
    but still , what range should i put then ?

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  George1 on Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:00 pm

    Flight Tests of Russia's Advanced PAK FA Fighters Almost Completed - Sukhoi

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160704/1042413127/flight-tests-t-50.html


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    PAK-FA anti-stealth technology

    Post  User 1592 on Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:56 am

    I have this theory that the PAK-FA could use its RWR and L-band antennas to detect and target stealth aircraft. There is actually some evidence that the RWR in the PAK-FA could  detect LPI radars. In an interview on the Krasukha-2 the general director stated that now they were able to jam "complex radar signals which is something we weren't able to do in the past" to jam a radar signal you also have to detect it ,assuming that by "complex radar signals" they mean LPI and that the PAK-FA will come equipped with the latest advancements in technology when it comes to passive sensors then we can assume that the RWR of the PAK-FA could detect LPI. So after the signal from an LPI radar is detected then it will transfer the vertical and horizontal angle information of the target to the L-band antennas. Once the information is transferred to the L-band antennas, the PAK-FA would use the L-band antennas to measure range. After the range is acquired then the information is processed. Finally after the information is processed, the received information would be enough to provide a weapon's quality track. Remember when the Himalaya EW system designers said that the Himalaya EW system(PAK-FA's EW suit) could neutralize stealth.


    The interview is in a video named Technology Update 66: Stealth jet nano coating, a mobile radar jammer & hydrogen fuel cells
    (it start at minute 16:27)

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:16 pm

    User 1592 wrote:I have this theory that the PAK-FA could use its RWR and L-band antennas to detect and target stealth aircraft. There is actually some evidence that the RWR in the PAK-FA could  detect LPI radars. In an interview on the Krasukha-2 the general director stated that now they were able to jam "complex radar signals which is something we weren't able to do in the past" to jam a radar signal you also have to detect it ,assuming that by "complex radar signals" they mean LPI and that the PAK-FA will come equipped with the latest advancements in technology when it comes to passive sensors then we can assume that the RWR of the PAK-FA could detect LPI. So after the signal from an LPI radar is detected then it will transfer the vertical and horizontal angle information of the target to the L-band antennas. Once the information is transferred to the L-band antennas, the PAK-FA would use the L-band antennas to measure range. After the range is acquired then the information is processed. Finally after the information is processed, the received information would be enough to provide a weapon's quality track. Remember when the Himalaya EW system designers said that the Himalaya EW system(PAK-FA's EW suit) could neutralize stealth.


    The interview is in a video named  Technology Update 66: Stealth jet nano coating, a mobile radar jammer & hydrogen fuel cells
     (it start at minute 16:27)

    L-Band is a much longer wavelength and can more easily detect stealth aircraft but is also less accurate , but i think it's all about networking ,multiple units networked together, widely separated units will reduce the volume that a blip can be in dramatically .

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Berkut on Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:09 pm

    George1 wrote:Flight Tests of Russia's Advanced PAK FA Fighters Almost Completed - Sukhoi

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160704/1042413127/flight-tests-t-50.html

    Yeah, how about no.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:16 am

    Berkut wrote:
    George1 wrote:Flight Tests of Russia's Advanced PAK FA Fighters Almost Completed - Sukhoi

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160704/1042413127/flight-tests-t-50.html

    Yeah, how about no.

    Really? Why? The first airframe flew in 2010, so we've had 6 years of testing the developmental prototypes. Now comes pre-production, apparently 12 in number. Seems perfectly believable to me, and given the T-50 is still largely a secret project with limited information releases, I don't see how you can say otherwise.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  User 1592 on Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:23 am

    "L-Band is a much longer wavelength and can more easily detect stealth aircraft but is also less accurate  , but i think it's all about networking ,multiple units networked together, widely separated units will reduce the volume that a blip can be in dramatically."

    That is true however this concept that I have only requires L-band to measure range and that means its resolution can be improved with pulse compression thus allowing it to get a weapon's quality track ,but thanks anyways


    sorry, I don't know how to use the quotation system


    Last edited by User 1592 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:44 am; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:50 am

    L band is long enough to be less effected by shape, but is used widely for datalinks.

    That is why the L band array on the PAK FA and Su-335 are linear arrays... they will likely be used for datalink transmissions as well as a direction finder for NATO datalink use either between platforms or by stealth aircraft communicating with their AMRAAM missiles in flight.

    Comparing the angular results from several aircraft in one or more flights should allow fairly accurate triangulation of even the stealthiest of threats, as well as indications of where to concentrate the enormous power of the main and side radar antenna arrays of the aircraft.


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  User 1592 on Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:08 am

    GarryB wrote:L band is long enough to be less effected by shape, but is used widely for datalinks.

    That is why the L band array on the PAK FA and Su-335 are linear arrays... they will likely be used for datalink transmissions as well as a direction finder for NATO datalink use either between platforms or by stealth aircraft communicating with their AMRAAM missiles in flight.

    Comparing the angular results from several aircraft in one or more flights should allow fairly accurate triangulation of even the stealthiest of threats, as well as indications of where to concentrate the enormous power of the main and side radar antenna arrays of the aircraft.

    Yeah, they can also be used like that, in my concept the L-band's were only needed as range finders which is possible given that pulse compression would give the L-band's enough range resolution. However the L-band's might as well work both ways with that I mean my concept and your concept, I don't see why the Russian's wouldn't make their system work in as many ways as possible, but anyways, thanks.  Smile

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    Lband radars

    Post  HM1199 on Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:22 pm

    L Band radars can be useful against stealth targets such as the f22. It can detect data links , meaning that the su35 or pak fa would be aware of those stealth airplanes , for example , an su35 might not detect the f22 with its radar , but if it detects he datalinks , and not the airplanes , then the pilot will conclude that he is against stealth aircraft. l band radars can also employ electronic attack against datalinks , so missiles will be useless , and the f22's will not be able to share data , etc
    What do u guys think?
    Also , lol guys did you see all of the anti russian bias in f16.net? Lol they always talk about how "bad" russian stuff is and that nato is 30 years ahead lol

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  User 1592 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:32 am

    HM1199 wrote:L Band radars can be useful against stealth targets such as the f22. It can  detect data links , meaning that the su35 or pak fa would be aware of those stealth airplanes , for example , an su35 might not detect the f22 with its radar , but if it detects he datalinks , and not the airplanes , then the pilot will conclude that he is against stealth aircraft. l band radars can also employ electronic attack against datalinks , so missiles will be useless , and the f22's will not be able to share data , etc
    What do u guys think?
    Also , lol guys did you see all of the anti russian bias in f16.net? Lol they always talk about how "bad" russian stuff is and that nato is 30 years ahead lol
    That is true though L-band radars can still detect the F-22 without the need of necessarily detecting a data-link. The L-band frequency is less affected by RAM (radar absorbing material) and shape of a stealth fighter. Here is the effectiveness of a kind of RAM against different radar frequencies , remember that L-band frequency is between 1-2 GHz.  

    As you can see at around 2 GHz the RAM becomes almost completely ineffective.

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    Russia's PAK FA Stealth Fighter: The US Air Force's Worst Nightmare?

    Post  Pinto on Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:58 am

    The PAK FA has played the bugbear for Western air forces for nearly a decade, the terrifying Russian jet that will eat F-35s for breakfast. American aviation analysts in search of something, anything that might threaten U.S. air dominance settled on the PAK FA, a frankly evil looking jet that bore a very mild resemblance to the MiG-31 “Firefox” that Clint Eastwood made famous.

    Say what you will about the F-35, but Lockheed Martin has actually built and delivered one hundred and seventy one aircraft thus far. The Russian Air Force, meanwhile, has yet to receive its first PAK FA. In lieu of the PAK FA, Russia has continued to acquire generation 4.5 fighters (mostly of the Flanker family) as well as upgrading generation 4 fighters (including various Flankers, the MiG-29 Fulcrum, and the MiG-31 Foxhound). Sukhoi will likely never build the number of fighters that Western analysts expected, or that the Russian Air Force wanted.

    Acquisition of the PAK FA has slowed for two reasons. First, technical problems have beset the program, as Russia’s aviation industry (weighed down by the legacy of the post–Cold War collapse) has struggled with the development and manufacture of advanced stealth and avionic components. Second, the Russian economy has been damaged in the face of a worldwide drop in oil prices, and Western sanctions stemming from the decision to seize and annex Crimea. All in all, it remains unclear whether the PAK FA will ever threaten Western dominance of the skies.

    (Recommended: 5 Worst Fighter Planes of All Time)

    A New Stealth Fighter

    The PAK FA emerged from the ruins of the Russian post-Cold War military-industrial base. Russia’s first fifth-generation fighter project, the “MiG 1.44,” produced a single prototype before cancellation. The advent of the F-22 Raptor, and the expectation that the U.S. would follow up with large numbers of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, made the development of a fifth-generation fighter imperative for Russia.

    Perception of this need resulted in the award of a new fighter contract to Sukhoi in 2002. Sukhoi promised to produce a high maneuverability stealth fighter with supercruise capabilities that could match or defeat Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor in air-to-air combat. The PAK FA will also have sophisticated avionic systems, including datalink and a variety of electronic warfare components. Altogether, the PAK FA appears to strongly resemble the F-22 in performance, with marginally less stealth and network capabilities, but potentially more room to grow.

    Production

    After several years of development delays, the first T-50 (prototype designation) test flight happened in 2011. Since then, Sukhoi has produced six prototypes, which have amassed considerable hours in flight testing. Initial expectations projected the acquisition of 200 PAK FAs for Russia, 200 for India, and an unknown number for other countries.

    (Recommended: 5 Russian Weapons of War America Should Fear)

    However, the fighter continues to struggle with questions over cost and engine performance. In particular, the engines adopted for early aircraft do not provide sufficient thrust for the airframe, leaving the aircraft at a significant disadvantage compared to American fighters. In part because of this, and in part because of Russia’s economic difficulties, the initial order has dropped to twelve (with more expected after the resolution of engine problems).

    Export

    The PAK FA is nearly as important (conceptually, at least) to India’s aerospace future as to Russia, making the production issues particularly problematic. After months of haggling and disagreement, Russia agreed to cut development costs for the Indian version of the PAK FA. Theoretically, India is on the hook for roughly 150 fighters, and could purchase a hundred more on top of that.

    The PAK FA plays a major role in India’s competition with China and Pakistan, its two major regional rivals. China has pushed the J-20 stealth fighter project to a stage competitive with the PAK FA, although we know less of the former’s capabilities than of the latter. For its part, we can expect that Pakistan will likely acquire J-31 stealth fighters from China, whether off the shelf or as part of some kind of joint production scheme.

    It remains unclear whether India will ever acquire a version of the PAK FA, or instead focus on indigenously developed aircraft (the distant AMCA project, which may result in a usable combat aircraft by 2030). The absence of the PAK FA (HAL FGFA in Indian terminology) will leave a major hole in the Indian Air Force for quite a long time.

    With respect to other buyers, the Russians may eventually find export customers, but few seem interested at this point. The high cost of the plane, it's unproven technology, and limited Russian productive capacity make it a bad bet compared to the Flanker family, or (for those countries lucky enough to have a Club Membership) the F-35. That said, Sukhoi has enjoyed strong export success in recent years, and it would be wrong to bet against them at this point.

    Parting Thoughts

    The biggest question associated with the PAK FA remains this; can Russia’s aviation industry produce a sufficient number of fighters of sufficient reliability to have a significant strategic impact? The answer remains very much in doubt, but depends to great extent on whether the Russian economy recovers, and the Russian Air Force submits sufficient domestic orders to make producing the fighter a worthwhile risk.

    Although a completely different kind of fighter, the J-20 has increasingly taken on the bugbear role for Western air forces. The J-20 doesn’t match up well with either the F-22 or the F-35, but presents a different set of problems; how to defend vulnerable forward installations from a stealth-capable strike aircraft. That’s somewhat less sexy than the vision of Raptors and PAK FAs dog fighting it out, but it’s closer to the problems that every non-Western air force has faced for the last three decades.

    Robert Farley, a frequent contributor to the National Interest, is author of The Battleship Book. He serves as a senior lecturer at the Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce at the University of Kentucky. His work includes military doctrine, national security and maritime affairs. He blogs at Lawyers, Guns and Money, Information Dissemination and the Diplomat.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-pak-fa-stealth-fighter-the-us-air-forces-worst-16991?page=2

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  hoom on Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:33 am

    I think the relevant response to that goes something like this

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:28 am

    Say what you will about the F-35, but Lockheed Martin has actually built and delivered one hundred and seventy one aircraft thus far. The Russian Air Force, meanwhile, has yet to receive its first PAK FA. In lieu of the PAK FA, Russia has continued to acquire generation 4.5 fighters (mostly of the Flanker family) as well as upgrading generation 4 fighters (including various Flankers, the MiG-29 Fulcrum, and the MiG-31 Foxhound). Sukhoi will likely never build the number of fighters that Western analysts expected, or that the Russian Air Force wanted.

    Hahaha.. F-35 is a piece of crap... mainly because its design was generalised to play the role of several different existing 4th gen fighters, which resulted in performance that would be considered substandard by most air forces... the golden feature is that it is stealthy... except that when it is fully operational it wont be.

    But because it is in production and costing such a huge amount some buyers are getting real second thought jitters lets pretend that the PAK FA has been seriously delayed and might not even be bought in any numbers... because we are in the land of make believe and we can pretend what we like.

    Of course in the real world the PAK FA will go into service in Russia and in India... they are not buying 2 thousand of them like the west pretends it will buy of the F-35 of course but who wants 2 thousand sheep to fight 500 Russian and Indian lions...

    Acquisition of the PAK FA has slowed for two reasons.

    Acquisition of the PAK FA is going to plan AFAIK... they were never claiming to have 135 operational aircraft in service now.

    First, technical problems have beset the program, as Russia’s aviation industry (weighed down by the legacy of the post–Cold War collapse) has struggled with the development and manufacture of advanced stealth and avionic components.

    Actually western sanctions have purged western components from Russian systems and so in the future the risk of third party trojan components is very low.

    All of Europe has struggled with the development and manufacture of stealth aircraft... they don't have any either... even with their state of the art technology and electronics etc etc.

    Second, the Russian economy has been damaged in the face of a worldwide drop in oil prices, and Western sanctions stemming from the decision to seize and annex Crimea. All in all, it remains unclear whether the PAK FA will ever threaten Western dominance of the skies.

    Whether they will threaten western dominance of the skies depends more on what skies the west chooses to operate in. The presence of S-400s in Syria seemed to scare away F-22s on their first real operational deployment, so they likely don't even need PAK FA. That is not to say they wont get them... PAK FA seems more crafted to the role of defeating enemy stealth aircraft than the F-35 is crafted to operate in Russian air space safely.


    The PAK FA emerged from the ruins of the Russian post-Cold War military-industrial base. Russia’s first fifth-generation fighter project, the “MiG 1.44,” produced a single prototype before cancellation. The advent of the F-22 Raptor, and the expectation that the U.S. would follow up with large numbers of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, made the development of a fifth-generation fighter imperative for Russia.

    Bullshit.

    The MFI programme dates back to the late 1980s and was expected to replace the Su-27 and the LMFI programme was supposed to replace smaller fighters like the MiG-29 and Yak-141... the latter being cancelled anyway.

    The MFI programme was modified into the MFS programme when they decided they wanted a more multi role aircraft, and the MiG 1.44 and S-37 were produced as technology demonstrators to see which company would create the future multirole aircraft.

    Sukhoi won and developed the PAK FA.

    Altogether, the PAK FA appears to strongly resemble the F-22 in performance, with marginally less stealth and network capabilities, but potentially more room to grow.

    Again Bullshit.

    Unlike the US the Russians realised the F-22 was an imperial design expected to enter enemy air space and shoot down an enemy air force with the intent of exposing the country to military attack and takeover... it is a sniper that flys high and fast and shoots at anything that tries to take off using its stealth and cruise missiles launched from other platforms to take out any long range SAM that could threaten it, and its own AAMs to shoot down any aircraft as it takes off.

    The PAK FA on the other hand is intended to shoot down F-22s and F-35s, hense it has IRST and multiple frequency range radar and of course datalinks to communicate with aerospace defence forces.


    However, the fighter continues to struggle with questions over cost and engine performance. In particular, the engines adopted for early aircraft do not provide sufficient thrust for the airframe, leaving the aircraft at a significant disadvantage compared to American fighters. In part because of this, and in part because of Russia’s economic difficulties, the initial order has dropped to twelve (with more expected after the resolution of engine problems)

    Bullshit.

    It is a new design... if they crank out 250 of these aircraft what are they going to do if they find the oxygen supply system suffocates the crew? Like the F-22 does.

    They are producing 12 preproduction aircraft to put into service with the testing and evaluation units to find problems or potential improvements before the design is finalised and full production starts. The engines are no problem... there is no total redesign needed for the newer engines to be fitted... one could argue the F-14 had to wait till the D model before it got decent engines so it is not that uncommon.


    The PAK FA plays a major role in India’s competition with China and Pakistan, its two major regional rivals. China has pushed the J-20 stealth fighter project to a stage competitive with the PAK FA, although we know less of the former’s capabilities than of the latter. For its part, we can expect that Pakistan will likely acquire J-31 stealth fighters from China, whether off the shelf or as part of some kind of joint production scheme.

    It remains unclear whether India will ever acquire a version of the PAK FA, or instead focus on indigenously developed aircraft (the distant AMCA project, which may result in a usable combat aircraft by 2030). The absence of the PAK FA (HAL FGFA in Indian terminology) will leave a major hole in the Indian Air Force for quite a long time.


    Ahhh... so this Chinese fighter is superior to the PAK FA... why don't India just buy them instead... after all the Chinese are well known for their prowess in jet engine production...

    The Russians have been planing to have the PAK FA in service for decades now and it will happen whether India decides to pick up its feet or not... there are plenty who whine about the Gorshkov price increases and delays but if they had spent less time haggling a better price they could have had it built in rather less time and saved an enormous amount of money when things were cheaper... but no... lets haggle and get the best price for the FGA... I mean after all who else will sell such a thing to India?

    With respect to other buyers, the Russians may eventually find export customers, but few seem interested at this point. The high cost of the plane, it's unproven technology, and limited Russian productive capacity make it a bad bet compared to the Flanker family, or (for those countries lucky enough to have a Club Membership) the F-35. That said, Sukhoi has enjoyed strong export success in recent years, and it would be wrong to bet against them at this point.

    Who cares about export customers? How many actual exports of the MiG-31 have their been? This guy is an idiot.


    The biggest question associated with the PAK FA remains this; can Russia’s aviation industry produce a sufficient number of fighters of sufficient reliability to have a significant strategic impact? The answer remains very much in doubt, but depends to great extent on whether the Russian economy recovers, and the Russian Air Force submits sufficient domestic orders to make producing the fighter a worthwhile risk.

    What a dick. What reliability issues have Russian fighters had in Russian service?

    They have never produced them before so there is a question if they will ever be able to produce them? Well how about they have made 135 F-35s... why aren't they being used operationally yet? Are they really that crap?

    Although a completely different kind of fighter, the J-20 has increasingly taken on the bugbear role for Western air forces. The J-20 doesn’t match up well with either the F-22 or the F-35, but presents a different set of problems; how to defend vulnerable forward installations from a stealth-capable strike aircraft. That’s somewhat less sexy than the vision of Raptors and PAK FAs dog fighting it out, but it’s closer to the problems that every non-Western air force has faced for the last three decades.


    Hahahaha... so don't worry about the PAK FA some completely unknown Chinese piece of crap is the real danger to the world and the west... hahahahaah... WTF is this guy smoking?

    If the J-20 can't even match it with western fighters it might as well be a cruise missile... it can still hit installations but it will cost a fraction of the price and be bought in enormous numbers with no need to risk skilled pilots...

    BTW if PAK FAs are dogfighting F-35s and F-22s then it is game over for those western aircraft...



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    Lol

    Post  HM1199 on Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:41 pm

    Guys that article about the pak fa was copy pasted from " the national interest " magazine , it is known for writing bullshit articles about the pak fa being a "failure" and trying to trash it becasue they are jealous the pak fa can shoot down the f22 and f35.
    The thing i dislike most is the " american air superiority" they keep bragging about it , no , the americans do not have air superiority , the su35 beats anything in the US arsenal , including the f22 ,lol what a joke.

    Also , can someone tell me more about the maneuerability about the pakfa comparing to f22 .

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:37 am

    The F-22 doesn't even have high off bore sight AAMs so in a turning fight it is in the shit.

    It is supposed to turn better than an F-15 but then so does the old bog standard Su-27 so that is nothing special.

    the F-22 is a long range sniper designed to fly fast and high and shoot from distances where the enemy wont even see what hit them.

    The obvious problem is that this sniper has perhaps 6 AMRAAMs and perhaps 2 sidewinders and no helmet mounted sight... even old Su-27SM3s have the jamming equipment to defeat AMRAAMs and in terms of cannons the F-22 is in trouble in close combat. DIRCMs will make Sidewinder useless... so it becomes a gun fight and the 30mm on the Russian aircraft is reportedly very accurate and lethal...

    As mentioned in the dumb article above even their enemies can't deny the F-22 is optimised for stealth while the PAK FA is optimised for fighting... and the F-35 is an overweight slow fighterbomber.

    I believe the best description of the F-35 I have read was that it was supposed to be a stealthy F-16 but turned out to be a Stealthy Buccaneer.

    Of course I actually like the Buccaneer but no one considers it anything other than a carrier based light strike aircraft.


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    wilhelm
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  wilhelm on Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:50 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Of course I actually like the Buccaneer but no one considers it anything other than a carrier based light strike aircraft.

    2 of the 3 users didn't consider it or use it as a carrier based based "light" strike aircraft.
    I must admit that is the first time I've ever heard the Buccaneer being described as a light strike aircraft...

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:03 am

    Well in airshows F-22 demonstrates most/all of the Su series stuff so its agility is well up there, at least better than any non-Su series plane.
    F-22 looks a bit constrained/restrained while doing it though vs Sus seeming more like a pilot going up & throwing the plane around the sky for fun.

    F-35 ... was supposed to be a stealthy F-16 but turned out to be a Stealthy Buccaneer.
    Thats either an heretical insult to the mighty Buccaneer or big praise for the strike ability of F-35 Suspect

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  OminousSpudd on Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:29 am

    hoom wrote:Well in airshows F-22 demonstrates most/all of the Su series stuff so its agility is well up there, at least better than any non-Su series plane.
    F-22 looks a bit constrained/restrained while doing it though vs Sus seeming more like a pilot going up & throwing the plane around the sky for fun.

    F-35 ... was supposed to be a stealthy F-16 but turned out to be a Stealthy Buccaneer.
    Thats either an heretical insult to the mighty Buccaneer or big praise for the strike ability of F-35 Suspect

    F-22 exhibits 2D vectoring vs. Russian multi-axis 3D, and does not have that "aware" leading-edge that the Su-35S and PAK-FA employ. Honestly, US application of TVC is pretty much dead at this point anyway.

    They never could get the hang of it, as the F-18HARV, F-15 ACTIVE etc. demonstrated.

    Also, F-22 nozzles allegedly had a high wear rate, not sure if they fixed it with the -22A.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:00 pm

    we still dont have NATO code name for PAK-FA?


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:12 pm

    I must admit that is the first time I've ever heard the Buccaneer being described as a light strike aircraft...

    the primary mission of the Bucc in WWIII would have been flying low and fast with a bucket of instant sunshine under each wing.

    In that role... ie light nuclear strike... it was an excellent aircraft... compared with the F-16 it carried the same payload but it carried it much further at low altitude at a similar subsonic speed but could carry its payload from carriers.

    It was never a dogfighter however and so when the large deck carriers of the UK were retired then they were retired too.

    Current descriptions of the F-35 is of a basically subsonic, not very manoeuvrable aircraft... but it is OK because it will be stealthy.

    Of course with enemy fighters including Su-35s and PAK FAs with L band radar then it wont actually be stealthy so in effect it becomes a new model Buccaneer...

    Well in airshows F-22 demonstrates most/all of the Su series stuff so its agility is well up there, at least better than any non-Su series plane.
    F-22 looks a bit constrained/restrained while doing it though vs Sus seeming more like a pilot going up & throwing the plane around the sky for fun.

    The MiG-29OVT and therefore also potentially the MiG-29M and MiG-29K and MiG-35 and even MiG-29SMT offer TVC engine options which would make their manouver capability better than the Super 5th gen US fighter. ECM performance against AMRAAM and DIRCMs will likely mean it becomes a gun fight... where the F-22 loses its stealth and speed and height advantage and runs the risk of becoming cannon fodder.

    Thats either an heretical insult to the mighty Buccaneer or big praise for the strike ability of F-35

    Obviously high praise for the F-35 in terms of strike capability, but the F-35 is not supposed to be a light strike aircraft... it is supposed to be a multirole fighter strike aircraft... a sort of Buccaneer/F-16/Jaguar type aircraft... the problem is that it lacks the agility to be the F-16 component.

    It should be able to compensate a bit with sophisticated missiles and helmet mounted sights, but at the end of the day it will be at a huge disadvantage against a modern capable enemy.



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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:the F-22 is a long range sniper designed to fly fast and high and shoot from distances where the enemy wont even see what hit them.

    As far as I know F-22 radar is even smaller than Su-30/35, the immature AESA techs mean and it suffers from phase/frequency distortiong... which means F-22 is a sniper with myopia.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:56 am

    If the F-22 was such a wunderwaffe masterpiece then it would be in production and there would be an F-32 successor instead
    of the joke called the F-35. The fanboi wanking about jaggy surfaces and RAM shows a total lack of basic physics knowledge.
    Nothing made of atoms will scatter incoming EM radiation with a predetermined angle. It will scatter
    in a hemisphere (i.e. in every direction other than the surface, but actually also partly gets thermalized in the surface itself).
    There are peak scattering fluxes that roughly follow the geometry but we are not dealing with some classical ideal ray but
    quantum mechanics.

    http://www.thephysicsmill.com/2014/03/30/a-quantum-of-scattering/

    RAM is another mythical fanboi wank entity. It is basically given characteristics of a black hole by the
    idiot fanbois. Again, there is nothing composed of atoms that will fully absorb incoming EM radiation but will emit none of it.
    There will always be emission since there will be energy conservation. Of course the frequency of the re-emitted EM will
    not be the same.

    So wunderwaffe stealth can be defeated utterly by:

    1) increasing the sensitivity of detectors (GN parts; check)

    2) increase the spectrum of EM being measured in the scatter and re-emission field of the target (optical, IR, and
    broader spectrum radar detectors; check)

    The F-22 is effective against 3rd world militaries. It is part of the US neo-colonial force projection capacity together with dinosaur
    aircraft carriers. The problem is that American leaders now think, like retards, that every "enemy" they designate, including
    Russia and China, is a powerless banana republic. They will be in for the biggest and final shock of their stinking lives.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:17 am



    Stealth is still useful , instead of detecting F-22's at 500km range , like S-400 can do.
    they will be detected at 200km or even 150km by same radars. The same is true for Pak-fa
    Stealth ram will will give some extra time before they detected ,that could be very useful
    in a sneak first strike attack. Also Plane radars are weaker than land based ones. So using
    their own radars it could allow an F-22 to get 100km close to any Russian plane or warship undetected If the encounter is done in open sea with no S-400 or S-500 radars backup.

    So stealth always helps.. the big mistake will be to think they are unstopable and cannot be seen
    or intercepted.




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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:52 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    Stealth is still useful , instead of detecting F-22's at 500km range , like S-400 can do.
    they will be detected at 200km or even 150km by same radars. The same is true for Pak-fa
    Stealth ram will will give some extra time before they detected ,that could be very useful
    in a sneak first strike attack. Also Plane radars are weaker than land based ones. So using
    their own radars it could allow an F-22 to get 100km close to any Russian plane or warship undetected If the encounter is done in open sea with no S-400 or S-500 radars backup.

    So stealth always helps.. the big mistake will be to think they are unstopable and cannot be seen
    or intercepted.




    "Stealth" is a wishy washy pile of BS of a concept. For a given design, e.g. F-22, Russia can design detection systems
    to basically whatever specification they want not limited by lack of photon flux. So the there is no intrinsic ability of
    stealth to limit detection range. It can only limit detection range for obsolete detectors. All incoming EM energy is released back
    into the environment. Stealth, as a concept, only works against monochrome 1950s radars. It does not work, at all,
    against generalized EM detectors.

    Refining IR detectors has a lot of value. Any solid flying through the air will experience air friction and will emit IR in all
    directions regardless of its shape. And of course there will be lots of IR coming out of the jet engines. Any half-intelligent
    detection system can isolate this signal even on the background of the atmospheric IR field. The object is coherent and
    moving so it can be extracted by time domain Fourier analysis from the full IR field data. Russia has plenty of custom ASICs
    and CPUs to do such Fourier analysis in real time. The main challenge is to refine the IR detectors.

    But believe it or not, even playing around with radar frequencies can yield a lot since the RAM and shape of the F-22, F-35, etc.
    cannot account for every frequency.

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