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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

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    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:10 pm

    A new helmet for pilots PAK FA
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 22 Empty PM Modi’s Russia visit: New, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter planes

    Post  Pinto on Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:57 am

    Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.

    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.

    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

    - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/pm-modi-leaves-for-moscow-russia-offers-new-cheaper-deal-on-sukhoi-fighter-jets/#sthash.Oet2qZ0g.dpuf
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    Post  Guest on Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:48 am

    Pinto wrote:Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.

    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.

    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

    - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/pm-modi-leaves-for-moscow-russia-offers-new-cheaper-deal-on-sukhoi-fighter-jets/#sthash.Oet2qZ0g.dpuf

    “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.” - yeah, because India can develop and build cheap and capable 5th gen fighter Very Happy Took them 30 years to finish light multirole fighter that weights like Yugo 55, money they poured in it is probably far greater than whole PAK FA project... Srsly.
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    Post  Pinto on Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:19 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Pinto wrote:

    - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/pm-modi-leaves-for-moscow-russia-offers-new-cheaper-deal-on-sukhoi-fighter-jets/#sthash.Oet2qZ0g.dpuf

    “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.” -

    yeah, because India can develop and build cheap and capable 5th gen fighter Very Happy Took them 30 years to finish light multirole fighter that weights like Yugo 55, money they poured in it is probably far greater than whole PAK FA project... Srsly.

    lol well said but the point now is that because of diffrence in retirements for operational use has delayed many India-Russia projects

    1. medium role combat aircraft (urgently needted to replace ageing AN 32)- IAF wants change in engine and this deal is hanging fire since 2007 and recently russia has allocated money for this project

    2. FGFA the most latest exampl, India has not been even allowed to test flight leave aside the Indian reqire,ents even the Russian version too. that too when India has offfered to buy 3-4 sq of T50

    3. SU 30 MKI spares issue, both sukhoi n HAL blame each other

    All these issues needs to sorted out on war footing otherwise other nations will take benefit of the delays in these deals
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    Post  Guest on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:03 pm

    Pinto wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Pinto wrote:

    - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/pm-modi-leaves-for-moscow-russia-offers-new-cheaper-deal-on-sukhoi-fighter-jets/#sthash.Oet2qZ0g.dpuf

    “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.” -

    yeah, because India can develop and build cheap and capable 5th gen fighter Very Happy Took them 30 years to finish light multirole fighter that weights like Yugo 55, money they poured in it is probably far greater than whole PAK FA project... Srsly.

    lol well said but the point now is that because of diffrence in retirements for operational use has delayed many India-Russia projects

    1. medium role combat aircraft (urgently needted to replace ageing AN 32)- IAF wants change in engine and this deal is hanging fire since 2007 and recently russia has allocated money for this project

    2. FGFA the most latest exampl, India has not been even allowed to test flight leave aside the Indian reqire,ents even the Russian version too. that too when India has offfered to buy 3-4 sq of T50

    3. SU 30 MKI spares issue, both sukhoi n HAL blame each other

    All these issues needs to sorted out on war footing otherwise other nations will take benefit of the delays in these deals

    You mean transport to replace AN32, not combat Smile Ukrspetsexport modernised them but i dont think they can serve for much longer, replacement is needed in next decade, decade and a half at the most.

    Thing with PAK-FA is that Indians contributed quite little to be honest, even tho you can see in Indian media how India spared huge amounts of funds, its not really true, India is spending money on subsystems for future FGFA which has nothing to do with PAK FA itself, so its somewhat of a trick served by Indian gov or military officials i am not really sure. Also i am not sure about goals behind that trick, what are Indians trying to get by that.

    Well when its about spares, lets be honest, India has one of the worst safety and maintenance records in the history of aviation. I remember reading how certain workers were caught stealing SU30MKI parts from HAL and selling it to private third party company.
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    Post  Pinto on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:14 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Pinto wrote:

    - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/pm-modi-leaves-for-moscow-russia-offers-new-cheaper-deal-on-sukhoi-fighter-jets/#sthash.Oet2qZ0g.dpuf

    “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.” -

    yeah, because India can develop and build cheap and capable 5th gen fighter Very Happy Took them 30 years to finish light multirole fighter that weights like Yugo 55, money they poured in it is probably far greater than whole PAK FA project... Srsly.

    lol well said but the point now is that because of diffrence in retirements for operational use has delayed many India-Russia projects

    1. medium role combat aircraft (urgently needted to replace ageing AN 32)- IAF wants change in engine and this deal is hanging fire since 2007 and recently russia has allocated money for this project

    2. FGFA the most latest exampl, India has not been even allowed to test flight leave aside the Indian reqire,ents even the Russian version too. that too when India has offfered to buy 3-4 sq of T50

    3. SU 30 MKI spares issue, both sukhoi n HAL blame each other

    All these issues needs to sorted out on war footing otherwise other nations will take benefit of the delays in these deals

    You mean transport to replace AN32, not combat Smile Ukrspetsexport modernised them but i dont think they can serve for much longer, replacement is needed in next decade, decade and a half at the most.

    Thing with PAK-FA is that Indians contributed quite little to be honest, even tho you can see in Indian media how India spared huge amounts of funds, its not really true, India is spending money on subsystems for future FGFA which has nothing to do with PAK FA itself, so its somewhat of a trick served by Indian gov or military officials i am not really sure. Also i am not sure about goals behind that trick, what are Indians trying to get by that.

    Well when its about spares, lets be honest, India has one of the worst safety and maintenance records in the history of aviation. I remember reading how certain workers were caught stealing SU30MKI parts from HAL and selling it to private third party company.

    well bro this is where the difference lies, and needs to be sorted out

    MRTA is desperately required by India and present Russian offer IAF rejects because they want newer version to last for 30-35 and not a gap fill arrangement for 10 years or so. This project is lingering since 2007

    it was clear from the beginning in pak-FA deal that indian version is going to be different as per IAF requirements, India gave 300 m $ for design no one in indian media is claiming we spent huge amount but still Russia has not even allowed to test fly even Russia version which because of shortage of warplanes India has offered to buy ready made in Russia, some 3-4 sq and later versions can be tailor made as per Indian needs n specifications

    bro since its inductions in 2001 the operational availability of su 30mki is only 50% now this is not alone because of the one off theft, accidents rates of IAF are normal similar to any modern world air force if we take out MIG27/MIG21. there retirement has been delayed because of delay in MRCA tnder process of rafales. India should have gone for MIG 35 or su35 but china too laying hands on them and later supplying copied versions as J 31 to pakistan has ruled them out for IAF

    All these differences i feel can be sorted out with a push to make in india process and Russia can be the biggest gainer of this policy in future to come because western countries will never share with India the technology which Russia has been ding for past many decades
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:51 pm

    Pinto wrote:...............................

    MRTA is desperately required by India and present Russian offer IAF rejects because they want newer version to last for 30-35 and not a gap fill arrangement for 10 years or so. This project is lingering since 2007

    ............................

    MRTA has been progressing nicely lately especially since Ukraine went tits-up. PD-14 engines are also well on track.

    Don't know enough about rest of the stuff that is being discussed so I'll be quiet on it.





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    Post  Pinto on Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:42 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Pinto wrote:...............................

    MRTA is desperately required by India and present Russian offer IAF rejects because they want newer version to last for 30-35 and not a gap fill arrangement for 10 years or so. This project is lingering since 2007

    ............................

    MRTA has been progressing nicely lately especially since Ukraine went tits-up. PD-14 engines are also well on track.

    Don't know enough about rest of the stuff that is being discussed so I'll be quiet on it.

    No smooth going for this project stuck since 2007 there are delays because of engine which UAC offered is not to the specifications of IAF, hence more delays expected




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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:22 pm

    Pinto wrote:................................

    No smooth going for this project stuck since 2007 there are delays because of engine which UAC offered is not to the specifications of IAF, hence more delays expected


    Off Topic

    2007 was long ago, I was referring to last couple of years. Why are engines problematic? If they can operate in Russian Arctic, India should be no problem.
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    Post  Guest on Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:37 am

    The Indians probably want engines that they can't screw up during maintenance given the notorious IAF maintenance record.

    Berkut, I had a question that I was hoping you could answer and I have a lot of trouble locating elsewhere (maybe I wasn't looking hard enough but I didn't have a lot of free time). What is the purpose of R2 on T-50-2 and will it be on the production variant?
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:08 am

    Pinto wrote:Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.

    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.

    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

    - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/pm-modi-leaves-for-moscow-russia-offers-new-cheaper-deal-on-sukhoi-fighter-jets/#sthash.Oet2qZ0g.dpuf

    I really hope this is not real..and just fake news..

    It will be incredibly stupid ,incredibly retarded that Russia give India the know how to
    make Pak-fa for just 3.7 billions. .thats nothing. Russia could get more money than that
    selling Pak-FA to Americans.  Putin will deserve to be overthrow for treason if he goes and give
    away Pak-fa blue prints for so little money. France got a 10 billion deal with India for teaching
    how to build crappy rafale jets.  Pak-fa is not just any plane.. is the only Stealth Plane in the world for sale ,that could beat the Best thing americans have either F-22 or F-35..

    and Americans Don't sale its F-22.. so they are doing the right thing.

    Pak-fa knows how to make..  Is something that russia SHOULD NEVER give away to any nation.
    But if they really believe is a life of dead decision ,that without the money its entire military will collapse , ,then no less than $50 billions dollars should be the price for building a state of the art stealth plane. So i really hope ,this news of "Russia offer" is a bad joke.. Otherwise Putin will have to be kicked from power and put in jail for treason.  Because it will be incredibly stupid that Putin give away something that took decades to develop and dozens of billions in research ,
    its best technology for a miserable sum of 3.7 billions.  

    Imo a coup should start in RUssia if putin betray the nation in such a blatant way.
    Giving its best technology ,that took decades them in research for just 3.7 billions dollars miserable offer. In fact i think is a bad idea that RUssia sells pak-fa at all to any nation at any price. It could allow other nations to reverse engineer it and sold to NATO later ,and Russian enemies later understand the weakness of pak-fa and use it to kill Russian pilots.

    And i don't know why India wants to be a super power.. they do no difference in the world,
    to improve it ,other than symbolic voting at UN, and only goes the easy way and mind only of its internal issues.

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    Post  par far on Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:42 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Pinto wrote:Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.

    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.

    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

    - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/pm-modi-leaves-for-moscow-russia-offers-new-cheaper-deal-on-sukhoi-fighter-jets/#sthash.Oet2qZ0g.dpuf

    I really hope this is not real..and just fake news..

    It will be incredibly stupid ,incredibly retarded that Russia give India the know how to
    make Pak-fa for just 3.7 billions. .thats nothing. Russia could get more money than that
    selling Pak-FA to Americans.  Putin will deserve to be overthrow for treason if he goes and give
    away Pak-fa blue prints for so little money. France got a 10 billion deal with India for teaching
    how to build crappy rafale jets.  Pak-fa is not just any plane.. is the only Stealth Plane in the world for sale ,that could beat the Best thing americans have either F-22 or F-35..

    and Americans Don't sale its F-22.. so they are doing the right thing.

    Pak-fa knows how to make..  Is something that russia SHOULD NEVER give away to any nation.
    But if they really believe is a life of dead decision ,that without the money its entire military will collapse , ,then no less than $50 billions dollars should be the price for building a state of the art stealth plane. So i really hope ,this news of "Russia offer" is a bad joke.. Otherwise Putin will have to be kicked from power and put in jail for treason.  Because it will be incredibly stupid that Putin give away something that took decades to develop and dozens of billions in research ,
    its best technology for a miserable sum of 3.7 billions.  

    Imo a coup should start in RUssia if putin betray the nation in such a blatant way.
    Giving its best technology ,that took decades them in research for just 3.7 billions dollars miserable offer. In fact i think is a bad idea that RUssia sells pak-fa at all to any nation at any price. It could allow other nations to reverse engineer it and sold to NATO later ,and Russian enemies later understand the weakness of pak-fa and use it to kill Russian pilots.

    And i don't know why India wants to be a super power.. they do no difference in the world,
    to improve it ,other than symbolic voting at UN, and only goes the easy way and mind only of its internal issues.



    I would take anything that comes out of the Indian media with a grain of salt, there are just too many media outlets in India, that sometimes one reports something and the other something else about the same thing. Let's just wait until after Modi's visit.
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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 22 Empty Indo-Russian fighter aircraft project regains speed: HAL

    Post  Pinto on Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:04 am

    Bengaluru, Dec 23 (PTI) HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju today said the Indo-Russia Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) project has "regained its speed" and the company hoped to know about a decision on it in next six months.

    "The FGFA programme has regained its speed. Discussions are on. Hopefully, we should know a decision in next six months," Raju told reporters here. The statement comes when the final design contract, under which the Russian and Indian governments were to contribute an initial USD 6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between the two countries. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week. The project, which costs an estimated USD 30 billion, involves Russias Sukhoi Design Bureau and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Under the project, single-seat fighters will be made in India. Asked whether the topic will come up for discussions during the Russia visit, Raju said, "I cannot answer it. The Ministry of External Affairs and Defence handle the matter." However, HAL has done the preliminary design, contract of which was signed for USD 295 million in 2010, Raju said.

    "The next 25 years road map would be challenging. We aim to be in the league of top ten aerospace companies in the world," he said. HAL also aims to achieve a Maharatna status in near future and focus on diversifying its customer profile to non-defence sector, Raju said. The HAL Chairman said the helicopter business segment is "expected to grow manifold and the company will make efforts to see helicopters operate in many parts of the world." He also said the company intended to build brand India civil aircraft for regional transportation. "A year and a half back, HAL took the initiative and proposed that it would like to form a Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV). Now we are looking at two ways---brand India aircraft or co-develop a Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA)," Raju said.
    The HAL and National Aeronautical Limited (NAL) had taken the lead to build this 70-90 seater aircraft on a public private partnership (PPP) model with a special purpose vehicle (SPV) formed to steer this project. PTI BDN BN SRY


    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indo-russian-fighter-aircraft-project-regains-speed-hal/1/554783.html
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    Post  Pinto on Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:09 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Pinto wrote:................................

    No smooth going for this project stuck since 2007 there are delays because of engine which UAC offered is not to the specifications of IAF, hence more delays expected


    Off Topic

    2007 was long ago, I was referring to last couple of years. Why are engines problematic? If they can operate in Russian Arctic, India should be no problem.

    well bro read this

    http://defenceupdate.in/russian-cabinet-approves-long-delayed-indo-russian-joint-venture-mta-aircraft/
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    Post  Pinto on Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:14 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:The Indians probably want engines that they can't screw up during maintenance given the notorious IAF maintenance record.

    Berkut, I had a question that I was hoping you could answer and I have a lot of trouble locating elsewhere (maybe I wasn't looking hard enough but I didn't have a lot of free time). What is the purpose of R2 on T-50-2 and will it be on the production variant?

    well dear keep complaining about the indians and US/west/Isrealis are not blaming us for there equipment which we are using

    There are some real serious differences between India and russia over some projects which can not be solved by blaming your biggest buyer since decades
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    Post  Guest on Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:00 am

    Pinto wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Pinto wrote:................................

    No smooth going for this project stuck since 2007 there are delays because of engine which UAC offered is not to the specifications of IAF, hence more delays expected


    Off Topic

    2007 was long ago, I was referring to last couple of years. Why are engines problematic? If they can operate in Russian Arctic, India should be no problem.

    well bro read this

    http://defenceupdate.in/russian-cabinet-approves-long-delayed-indo-russian-joint-venture-mta-aircraft/

    "In early 2014 it became known that the Indian Air Force’s major complaints were about the Russians’ reluctance to allow them full access to technology (even though from a financial standpoint this project was evenly split), the fact that the fighter did not conform to New Delhi’s requirements (particularly in relation to the engine and radar), and its price."

    That part is not true, its actually so far from truth i am not sure how anyone can write something like this. Indians seem to me like they are just trying to obtain engine and radar technology they cant develop on their own for 300 million and then bail out from the project.
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    Post  Pinto on Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:19 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Pinto wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Pinto wrote:................................

    No smooth going for this project stuck since 2007 there are delays because of engine which UAC offered is not to the specifications of IAF, hence more delays expected


    Off Topic

    2007 was long ago, I was referring to last couple of years. Why are engines problematic? If they can operate in Russian Arctic, India should be no problem.

    well bro read this

    http://defenceupdate.in/russian-cabinet-approves-long-delayed-indo-russian-joint-venture-mta-aircraft/

    "In early 2014 it became known that the Indian Air Force’s major complaints were about the Russians’ reluctance to allow them full access to technology (even though from a financial standpoint this project was evenly split), the fact that the fighter did not conform to New Delhi’s requirements (particularly in relation to the engine and radar), and its price."

    That part is not true, its actually so far from truth i am not sure how anyone can write something like this. Indians seem to me like they are just trying to obtain engine and radar technology they cant develop on their own for 300 million and then bail out from the project.

    well bro show me one Indo-Russian project where Indian has backed off in our decades old partnerships. this has been the domain of china by copying Russian technology and later showing as its own and selling to world as chinese weapons

    India has not been allowed to test flight T50 which india offered to buy 4 sq in ready made condition from russia in a bid to fulfill shortfall in indian fighters squardons. i has posted here news regarding this too you can check it
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    Post  Vann7 on Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:20 pm

    Pinto wrote:
    India has not been allowed to test flight T50 which india offered to buy 4 sq in ready made condition from russia in a bid to fulfill shortfall in indian fighters squardons. i has posted here news regarding this  too you can check  it

    Neither India ,neither Russian military can buy yet T-50.. when is not finished.
    Pak-fa as you know is a prototype in testing ,and even though last news says is very
    close to end the test and enter production there is no way Russia could sell you a plane
    that not even them have finished.

    The criticism ,and a well deserved one against India gov is that is being a little too greedy ,
    and somehow thinks that just because India have buy lots of Russian military hardware
    in the past , something that have given a lot of benefit to Russia defense industry without a doubt. That somehow Russia government is now in debt to India and needs to be more flexible
    and give away all its best technology for cheap.  Americans do not give away any transfer of
    technology of anything to India.. and neither sell F-22 not even to its closest allies.

    Given away Pak-fa transfer of technology even to India represent a major threat to Russia
    nation security.. Since any corrupt Indian officer could sell the secrets to Americans or Israelis.
    So the right approach of India to Pak-fa should be not one of asking how to do it or any transfer of technology.. and instead they should be happy with buying as many stealth planes they want from Russia, superior to anything American have and for near half the price of cost to Americans for F-22.

    Again , India buys also a lot of Military hardware from Americans and Israelis and they don't make any demands of transfer of any technology with them. So it is not seen well , that India
    try to take advantage of Russia economic problems ,to try push for a deal not favorable for Russia. What will be better for India relations with Russia.. Is that India do business with Russia
    in the same professionnal way they do it with Americans. And do not try to be too smart or get things for too low price.  It is not ethical , to ask for discounts ,and continue to push for them ,
    when someone already have given you an offer.  It is a disrespectful business behavior ,to argue about price every time with a friendly nation for a lower price.. India behavior what it shows is that it don't trust in Russia business and that they are trying to rip off/cheat on India.

    Is very unprofessional and not good for your image ,if every time you go to buy something
    any place ,that you start asking for discounts and try to argue about the price. Is a really bad habit in business of Asian countries. and it doesn't promote better business relations if you argue with Russia every time they give you a price for anything. CHina is on the same boat as India ,in not encouraging better business relations with Russia by ,trying to get things very cheap at the expense of Russia interest.  A good business relations is only promoted when you
    trust in their business and accept the first offer they give you for anything. This does not means you could have saved more money by pushing harder ,but the money you dont save by accepting their first or at last a second offer ,will be compensated with much closer business and much relations with Russia. Whenever Russia give you a price on anything , they have studied it the cost for them and have given you a price they consider Fair already. But if you keep pushing for lower price for you ,you are sending a bad signal  ,that is that you don't trust in Russia. When you go and buy an iphone ,you don't try to get a discount in Apple store.. you simply pay the price they ask. the Asian way of thinking seems to be as if Only American made technology is worth of its price but anything else you need to argue about its price and try to get it more cheap. No   Moral of the Story ,what India is doing with Russia is wrong ,Is bad business practices. To ARgue for years about an offer they have given to you ,is bad for nations relations ,even if in the end both agree to a price ,you can be sure Russia will sell you want you wanted if desperate ,but it will not be in a good mood ,and more with seconds thoughts and wishing they never did the deal with you.  In India , people need to learn the concept of "Favorite costumers". When a Business get a real good relation with some special people or customers , you will start to see the retribution back , that the customer will start to get things
    even for free , or sold things at the cost.. just to thank them for being so good customers.  India and China too.. needs a long way to go ,to learn how to be good customers ,and show it trust in the price and offer given to them withing the first day of discussion.

    As crazy as this sounds Americans are good in business , they understand this concept of developing good business relation and trust in business ,how important it is to be proffessional.
    They are really bad in politics big time.. but in business they are really good. Whenever Russia ask a price NASA for its rockets.. they pay it and thats it.. there is not fighting for the price. even if they think is a little expensive the deal for them. This is why Russia prefer many times more the way of doing business with americans than with India or China that wants to gets things for very low price even if that damage the  interest of Russia.


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    Post  Guest on Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:00 pm

    Pinto wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:The Indians probably want engines that they can't screw up during maintenance given the notorious IAF maintenance record.

    Berkut, I had a question that I was hoping you could answer and I have a lot of trouble locating elsewhere (maybe I wasn't looking hard enough but I didn't have a lot of free time). What is the purpose of R2 on T-50-2 and will it be on the production variant?

    well dear keep complaining about the indians and US/west/Isrealis are not blaming us for there equipment which we are using

    There are some real serious differences between India and russia over some projects which can not be solved by blaming your biggest buyer since decades
    You still have a history of crashing new airframes that other nations have no issues with. Regardless of origin.

    http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/global-interest-in-cause-of-iaf-c-130j-crash-114032900033_1.html
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:25 am

    Like it or not India does have influence; due to its weight as a major Russia arms purchaser. And this is without even going into the 90s; where Indian orders kept some Russian firms afloat; not that they didn't have their own interests in mind of course, but still.

    To some extent export buyers, India chief among them, plot the direction of Russian military-industrial development - many products are offered mainly or exclusively for export sales, and sometimes these products, developed off the back of previous or current foreign purchases - are later bought by the Russian MoD (Admiral Grigorovich class, Pantsir-S1, etc...) or if not then in any case serve to advance technological progress and teach lessons that are used for the next generation of military hardware. The Admiral Gorshkov Aircraft Carrier that was refurbished for a foreign order - India's, in fact - is one of the best examples of this. Russia gained very valuable experience from the process for its shipyards, design bureaus and specialists for its own budding AC project, and turned a tidy profit too.

    In fact Russia's current large military-industrial complex would not be possible without its current huge volume of export orders. Russia is dependent on its products being extremely internationally competitive, advanced and selling well abroad - it is not the US, nor China, nor the Soviet Union to be able to keep at the cutting-edge of arms development by virtue of domestic orders alone.

    Russia has done very well in the last 10 years by recovering from the Soviet collapse in military research and production, cornering a large portion of the world market and reviving domestic purchases too.
    This has allowed it to maintain its position as a leading arms developer - however, this may not be enough for the next 20 years; as the Soviet-era designs are phased-out and there are no easy paths anymore, with everything requiring new, lengthy, expensive R&D; and while China advances its understanding too and closes the gap between itself and Russia + the West.

    One of the main solutions to this, and I think Russia understands this well, is to globalize its arms production, for its national arms companies to become multinational corporations - co-operating in R&D with many different countries on many different projects, possessing production facilities, R&D centres in several (trusted) countries. This would allow Russia to pool costs and scientific resources with those of other countries over a wide range of projects; the more sensitive being conducted only with countries who have the closest relations with Russia. And the very most sensitive, Russia can keep to itself, but it can really lighten its burden by co-operating on everything else.
    This is already happening; joint-projects with India, China, Jordan, UAE, Belarus, South Korea, etc...
    Licensed production in Algeria, India, Venezuela, soon Jordan, Vietnam & Iran..
    Service centres in a dozen countries.

    And India is a key cornerstone of this strategy. Not only is it one of the most trusted foreign countries, but out of all potential partners its also among the ones with the most potential, the largest defence budgets, R&D resources and so on. It also honours its contracts and agreements.
    It's no co-incidence that Russia has more joint-projects with India than anyone else. And now there are discussions on not just licensed-production, but joint-production in India - of Russian military projects for use not just by India's military, but sale/supply to 3rd countries as well. Russia doesn't have such an agreement with any other nation, but it's a vital next step, for that globalization of Russia's defence industries that I mentioned earlier.

    So yes, India does definitely does have a very influential voice here; it's practically the linchpin of the Russia military-industrial complex's global strategy for the next few decades. Russia should make every effort to maintain and expand ties, and satisfy Indian requirements.



    All that said though; letting India at any PAK-FA secrets, test drives, etc.. is premature for now. It's simply too sensitive, and India is already getting good terms; customization, future joint-production and access to the latest technology ahead of everyone else.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:17 am

    Ok, i was holding back on entering this dicussion becuase i wasn't to firmiliar with the agreements that Russia and India had signed, luckily our friend MAX was, here's what he wrote:
    max steel wrote:Russia offers India new Pak-Fa deal

    Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.
    Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

    India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

    The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

    “Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.
    But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t4195p150-russia-india-strategic-relationship-news

    So apparently, India did not sign the agreement that would allow them to have some say on the PAK-FA project, nor did they contribute financially to it, but they did indeed sign the agreement for the FGFA which both will develop later.

    As for the PAK-FA export not being up to Indian specs, that has nothing to do with Russia, it has everything to do with India accepting that fact and inducting it anyway, not because of delays, but because there French romance ended badly.
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:48 am

    If the export PAK-FA isn't up to Indian requirements - well hello, that's what the FGFA program is for - a tailor-made PAK-FA for India's needs.

    But if they're holding out for the.. F-35 instead, well we can't begrudge them that, just.. good luck.
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    Post  Guest on Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:20 am

    flamming_python wrote:If the export PAK-FA isn't up to Indian requirements - well hello, that's what the FGFA program is for - a tailor-made PAK-FA for India's needs.

    But if they're holding out for the.. F-35 instead, well we can't begrudge them that, just.. good luck.
    I don't see why that is so bad. It will at least beat any Chinese 5th gen aircraft any day. The Indians don't need much more than that. Unless they plan on fighting US F-22s, the PAK-FA isn't necessary (although it will be cheaper).
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    Post  max steel on Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:16 pm

    by the way can we expect Mig 1.44 revival(Good to see how Chinese making it work) ? It surely can kill F-22 , perhaps PAK-FA can compete against it.
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    Post  Pinto on Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:26 pm

    There might be some genuine differences between India and Russia over this aircraft but One thing is damn sure this aircraft will be made in Russia alone and i am seeing India will end up buying Russian version T50 in large number

    Mark my words and watch out this thread for latest updates next year russia santa

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