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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

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    GarryB
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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 27, 2015 10:07 am

    I wonder if operational Su-35 pilots also use this new helmet with HMD or the old ones.

    There are similar helmets being developed for Hokum and Havoc pilots and I hope also for Frogfoot pilots and their replacements.

    I suspect armata crews and Kurganets and Boomerang and Typhoon crews will also get such technology too.


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  George1 on Thu May 28, 2015 12:33 pm

    Air Force Commander: state tests of PAK-FA are in final stage

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Viktor on Thu May 28, 2015 11:47 pm

    Would love to see the pics Very Happy

    2015Serial deliveries of the PAK FA will begin in 2017

    Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft, known as the PAK FA, will go into service in 2016, serial deliveries will begin in 2017 year, according to TASS quoted the Commander of the Russian Air Force Viktor Bondarev


    "The test aircraft are in full swing, the plane shows excellent performance. - It works great as a weapons system on the ground and in the air - said Bondarev. - The aircraft is on the program of stealth, almost imperceptibly. In the plane I found all the most modern there is in today. In addition, if there is a new design, there are also introduced. "

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Vann7 on Fri May 29, 2015 5:50 pm

    Apparently now the Russian Airforce top general.. is saying that they will buy Pak-FA
    in the hundreds and thousands.. no longer will limit it to 12 as originally they adjusted it until
    2020..   Question



    Russia has finally decided to go forward with the acquisition of many Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA starting in 2017.

    Russian Air Force Commander Colonel General Viktor Bondarev confirmed on Thursday that Russia will buy as many T-50 PAK FA as the industry can deliver.

    Last March, Russia dramatically decreased its T-50 PAK FA order due “to major economic setback—mostly due to Western sanctions and the fall of the Ruble.” However, the Defense Ministry reserved the right to readjust the order of the Sukhoi PAK FA if deemed necessary.


    “The aircraft will enter mass production in 2017. We will order as many [fighter jets] as the industry can provide ,” Bondarev told reporters. The testing of the aircraft is in full swing, it shows excellent performance and its weapons system works great both on the land and in the air.”


    http://thesentinel.ca/russia-will-finally-buy-many-t-50-pak-fa/


    That should put an end to the NeoTrolls at RT that Pak-fa was a failure and that the program stalled ,that it didn't work and India didn't wanted them..   Suspect    Wink

    For the record.. Russia airforce told in 2010 they will be building at least a Thousand of Pak_fa
    planes.. Now what they say they will be building as many the company can produce ,and apparently no longer they will have a limit.. They for sure will cut budget somewhere else to
    Manage the big shopping .  

    If i were in charge of the military budget , i will cut and decommission about half of the soviets
    ,sitting ducks large warships and also their Kirov class too.. and start building Leader project instead.Since Russia never fight outside its borders , they have no need to project any power far away of Russia. Having thousands of sailors in a single warship ,that can be sent to the button of the sea with just one torpedo ,is something i consider bad strategy..  Instead Russia should focus in a smaller but more powerful navy with smaller warships to defend Russia.  

    Gremyashchy-class corvettes with Short range S-400s and Gorshkov-class frigate should form
    the backbone of Russia surface navy ,and operate them with the smallest crew possible and decommission vast majority of all those soviet combat warships.

    Submarines is the other hand build as many as they can.. but with the smallest crew possible.

    for projection they can start building now.. not in 2020 a couple of leaders destroyers with S-500s will be useful to extend the Anti ballistic defense of Russia territory beyond Russia territory.. One for the caspian sea.. another for the pacific  will be enough.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 29, 2015 9:10 pm

    Vann7 wrote: Russia has finally decided to go forward with the acquisition of many Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA starting in 2017.

    Russian Air Force Commander Colonel General Viktor Bondarev confirmed on Thursday that Russia will buy as many T-50 PAK FA as the industry can deliver.

    Last March, Russia dramatically decreased its T-50 PAK FA order due “to major economic setback—mostly due to Western sanctions and the fall of the Ruble.” However, the Defense Ministry reserved the right to readjust the order of the Sukhoi PAK FA if deemed necessary.


    “The aircraft will enter mass production in 2017. We will order as many [fighter jets] as the industry can provide ,” Bondarev told reporters. The testing of the aircraft is in full swing, it shows excellent performance and its weapons system works great both on the land and in the air.”


    http://thesentinel.ca/russia-will-finally-buy-many-t-50-pak-fa/

    For the record.. Russia airforce told in 2010 they will be building at least a Thousand of Pak_fa
    planes.. Now what they say they will be building as many the company can produce ,and apparently no longer they will have a limit.. They for sure will cut budget somewhere else to
    Manage the big shopping .  


    i guess uncle Pu knows lotsa things we do not - like USD collapse ? Thus timing and size of many purchases seems o be limited only by industry capacity.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 29, 2015 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Fri May 29, 2015 10:20 pm

    So I take it that the testing is going well or even better than expected then.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  type055 on Fri May 29, 2015 10:53 pm



    I find on wiki about izdeliye 30

    “evelopment began in 2011 and the engine is planned to be bench tested starting in 2014.[86] Flight testing of the engine on the T-50 is projected to begin in 2017”

    is that correct? on bench tested stage? any news about how are things going?

    anyone have T50's weapons bay pics ? thanks

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Fri May 29, 2015 11:49 pm

    type055 wrote:

    I find on wiki about izdeliye 30

    “evelopment began in 2011 and the engine is planned to be bench tested starting in 2014.[86] Flight testing of the engine on the T-50 is projected to begin in 2017”

    is that correct? on bench tested stage? any news about  how are things going?

    anyone have T50's weapons bay pics ? thanks

    Not much info other than "it is coming along" and we may see it late this year or next year.

    Internal weapons bays can be found on google but I believe they are models simply. Pretty much, similar internal weapons bays on the Su-47 Berkut.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 30, 2015 12:31 pm

    I don't believe the suggestion that there will be thousands of PAK FAs any more than I believe there will be 12.

    Very simply they need rather more than 12 but don't really need thousands either... at most they could probably use 300-500, but that is at most and probably by 2030.

    Personally I think a lighter stealth fighter should be designed and built by MiG... its priorities should be low cost and high payload when in nonstealthy roles... ie bomb truck when the enemy IADS is defeated, and in full stealth mode it should carry a large number of small very capable AAMs and light ASMs for dealing with enemy radar and SAMs...

    In which case I think 200-300 PAK FAs and 300-400 light 5th gen fighters to gradually replace non stealthy legasy fighters like Fulcrums and Flankers.


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  zepia on Sat May 30, 2015 1:26 pm

    The number of thousands t-50 has been stated couple years ago. And it is combined of domestic and foreign production number. IIRC it is 400 for Russia, 400 for india and 200 for orther market.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  George1 on Sat May 30, 2015 1:38 pm

    zepia wrote:The number of thousands t-50 has been stated couple years ago. And it is combined of domestic and foreign production number. IIRC it is 400 for Russia, 400 for india and 200 for orther market.

    i think Russia will get no more than 250-300. Also for F-22 in USA had been stated that it would be produced in number of thousand but numbers were reduced of course because of cost

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  zepia on Sat May 30, 2015 2:16 pm

    George1 wrote:
    zepia wrote:The number of thousands t-50 has been stated couple years ago. And it is combined of domestic and foreign production number. IIRC it is 400 for Russia, 400 for india and 200 for orther market.

    i think Russia will get no more than 250-300. Also for F-22 in USA had been stated that it would be produced in number of thousand but numbers were reduced of course because of cost

    Finally found it. http://m.in.rbth.com/articles/2011/09/07/russian_experts_upbeat_about_export_prospects_for_the_pak_fa_12953.html

    Look like memory don't serve me well. It's 200-250 for each india and Russia, the rest for others.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat May 30, 2015 2:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:I don't believe the suggestion that there will be thousands of PAK FAs any more than I believe there will be 12.

    Very simply they need rather more than 12 but don't really need thousands either... at most they could probably use 300-500, but that is at most and probably by 2030.

    Personally I think a lighter stealth fighter should be designed and built by MiG... its priorities should be low cost and high payload when in nonstealthy roles... ie bomb truck when the enemy IADS is defeated, and in full stealth mode it should carry a large number of small very capable AAMs and light ASMs for dealing with enemy radar and SAMs...

    In which case I think 200-300 PAK FAs and 300-400 light 5th gen fighters to gradually replace non stealthy legasy fighters like Fulcrums and Flankers.

    Including Navy? because navalized version? PAK FA is to be carrier based AFAIK. So 100-150 add here.
    Normal take off is 300-400m with ski-jump is a good candidate.

    And how to qualify heavy drones based on PAK FA?

    Thus PAK FA number can reach 1000 in reality Smile


    I am not sure about light stealth fighter projects planned soon in Russia but you forgot about Su-34 (strike non stelathy roles) and heavy interceptors (MiG 31/41)

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Vann7 on Sat May 30, 2015 8:50 pm



    There was someone apparently a Russian citizen.. claiming in a military article that
    Russia was working in another stealth plane.. called.. Pak-SHA ,that it was going
    to be an close air ground support plane to replace the Su-25... anyone heard about it?

    can't find anything on google.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 31, 2015 6:00 am

    Also for F-22 in USA had been stated that it would be produced in number of thousand but numbers were reduced of course because of cost

    Initial costs always include a really big number of aircraft produced as that reduces the cost of individual aircraft so you can win the contract.

    Once you have the production contract however to save money the numbers produced are reduced to save actual money.

    Including Navy? because navalized version? PAK FA is to be carrier based AFAIK. So 100-150 add here.

    I doubt they will start with 100 naval PAK FAs... more like a max of 48 or so...

    I am not sure about light stealth fighter projects planned soon in Russia but you forgot about Su-34 (strike non stelathy roles) and heavy interceptors (MiG 31/41)

    No I didn't forget about those aircraft and their replacements... that is why I don't think they would make 1,000 PAK FAs... they simply don't need that many... just like they wont make 1,000 Su-35s for the Russian AF... the RuAF doesn't need that many either.


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun May 31, 2015 7:03 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    There was someone apparently a Russian citizen.. claiming in a military article that
    Russia was working in another stealth plane.. called.. Pak-SHA   ,that it was going
    to be an close air ground support plane to replace the Su-25...  anyone heard about it?

    can't find anything on google.


    Maybe that's a reference to Sh-90.


    Arrow Sh-90

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 31, 2015 12:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Also for F-22 in USA had been stated that it would be produced in number of thousand but numbers were reduced of course because of cost

    Initial costs always include a really big number of aircraft produced as that reduces the cost of individual aircraft so you can win the contract. Once you have the production contract however to save money the numbers produced are reduced to save actual money.

    Till some level that even economy of scale does nto work


    GarryB wrote:
    Including Navy? because navalized version? PAK FA is to be carrier based AFAIK. So 100-150 add here.

    I doubt they will start with 100 naval PAK FAs... more like a max of 48 or so...


    True but depending of number of ACs - if one tak es ~50 PAK FAs... and say 3 of them procured?

    GarryB wrote:
    I am not sure about light stealth fighter projects planned soon in Russia but you forgot about Su-34 (strike non stelathy roles) and heavy interceptors (MiG 31/41)

    No I didn't forget about those aircraft and their replacements... that is why I don't think they would make 1,000 PAK FAs... they simply don't need that many... just like they wont make 1,000 Su-35s for the Russian AF... the RuAF doesn't need that many either.
    [/quote]

    Tiny detail - I mentioned about PAK FA based heavy compact drones 20ton class. With current US containment policy repelling Western aggression might be priority especially drones do not require highly trained pilots.


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  jhelb on Sun May 31, 2015 7:15 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    There was someone apparently a Russian citizen.. claiming in a military article that
    Russia was working in another stealth plane.. called.. Pak-SHA   ,that it was going
    to be an close air ground support plane to replace the Su-25...  anyone heard about it?

    can't find anything on google.

    PAK-SHA is going to replace Su 25. So basically it is going to be a CAS aircraft. Am not sure whether it will be stealthy or not. Generally speaking, stealth is of little use in a CAS role.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun May 31, 2015 7:59 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:

    There was someone apparently a Russian citizen.. claiming in a military article that
    Russia was working in another stealth plane.. called.. Pak-SHA   ,that it was going
    to be an close air ground support plane to replace the Su-25...  anyone heard about it?

    can't find anything on google.

    PAK-SHA  is going to replace Su 25. So basically it is going to be a CAS aircraft. Am not sure whether it will be stealthy or not. Generally speaking, stealth is of little use in a CAS role.

    It depends what kind of 'stealth' people want. Eliminating all external pylons for CAS aircraft is a terrible idea, but reducing the IR signature from the CAS aircraft's exhaust fumes is actually very practical and beneficial.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun May 31, 2015 8:12 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    jhelb wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:

    There was someone apparently a Russian citizen.. claiming in a military article that
    Russia was working in another stealth plane.. called.. Pak-SHA   ,that it was going
    to be an close air ground support plane to replace the Su-25...  anyone heard about it?

    can't find anything on google.

    PAK-SHA  is going to replace Su 25. So basically it is going to be a CAS aircraft. Am not sure whether it will be stealthy or not. Generally speaking, stealth is of little use in a CAS role.

    It depends what kind of 'stealth' people want. Eliminating all external pylons for CAS aircraft is a terrible idea, but reducing the IR signature from the CAS aircraft's exhaust fumes is actually very practical and beneficial.

    I would presume EW in this case is also nice but what about missiles with optical homing? IMHO better is make is pretty well armored to be able toc sustain many hits and still safely return to base. Probably that´s why Su-39, as i heard, will be basis for nw attack plane.


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:17 pm

    Maybe that's a reference to Sh-90.

    PAK just means future prospective aircraft...  the ShA in this case means CAS aircraft...

    Till some level that even economy of scale does nto work

    the higher the value for potential demand before the aircraft is ready divides the cost of development and production into a smaller number so the higher the better... on paper... which is the only place it will exist.

    After production is started however making 5,000 planes might be costing you 100 billion, but the fact that you don't want to spend that much means cuts and the best way to cut is to reduce production numbers. That increases the cost per aircraft again... usually to the point where you would not have bought the aircraft if it was known it would cost that much but you are already committed to buying the damn thing and now you can only reduce the amount it costs your country while your party is still in power. Making each aircraft terribly expensive is no longer relevant as you have already spent the development money... the focus is to find out how few the military needs to cut your losses...

    For the F-22 it was 189... from numbers I remember being as high as 700.

    True but depending of number of ACs - if one tak es ~50 PAK FAs... and say 3 of them procured?

    That would likely be after 2030... I am thinking more in the now to 2020-2025 period.

    Tiny detail - I mentioned about PAK FA based heavy compact drones 20ton class. With current US containment policy repelling Western aggression might be priority especially drones do not require highly trained pilots.

    Yes... in terms of drones there is potential for significant numbers, but even an unmanned PAK FA will be terribly expensive... they wont make thousands... more likely they will make smaller 5 ton drones that are very similar to modern cruise missiles with a couple of AAMs and perhaps a gun.

    PAK-SHA is going to replace Su 25. So basically it is going to be a CAS aircraft. Am not sure whether it will be stealthy or not. Generally speaking, stealth is of little use in a CAS role.

    Yes... basically PAK ShA basically stands for future prospective shturmovik... or CAS aircraft... I rather doubt it will have radar stealth, though IR and optical stealth might be features...


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:32 am

    Russia will need something of a high number of PAK FA's for the future, but mind you, it can be spread out the whole development. Initial orders are up to 250 aircraft, but that doesn't mean they will stop at that. They will need to eventually replace MiG-29's and Su-27 (and variants) and having PAK FA and its variants will be important. US is saying they will possibly roll out F-35 this summer (I personally doubt it) but if true, Russia will have a problem on its hands as the F-35's will indeed be a major step up. So PAK FA will need to be the one to fill the rolls. They can easily modify the PAK FA in the future with various variants like an interceptor variant with a far more powerful radar with GaN T/R modules that is using photon based technology, and another one for cheaper operations, etc etc etc. But relying on older jets to compete against the American F-35's is not acceptable especially if Russia wants to dominate their own airspace.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  victor1985 on Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:40 am

    A less number of aicraft is needed only when capabilities of the new aircraft are obvious? Mean double payload range zpeed and so on would make fewer aircrafts per mision?
    Also makin variants depends a lot on enemy posibilities...if he cannot have a cannon that ca t hit 15000 meters its clear what you do

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  victor1985 on Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:30 am

    sepheronx wrote:Russia will need something of a high number of PAK FA's for the future, but mind you, it can be spread out the whole development.  Initial orders are up to 250 aircraft, but that doesn't mean they will stop at that.  They will need to eventually replace MiG-29's and Su-27 (and variants) and having PAK FA and its variants will be important.  US is saying they will possibly roll out F-35 this summer (I personally doubt it) but if true, Russia will have a problem on its hands as the F-35's will indeed be a major step up.  So PAK FA will need to be the one to fill the rolls.  They can easily modify the PAK FA in the future with various variants like an interceptor variant with a far more powerful radar with GaN T/R modules that is using photon based technology, and another one for cheaper operations, etc etc etc.  But relying on older jets to compete against the American F-35's is not acceptable especially if Russia wants to dominate their own airspace.
    For some reasons russia cant say exacly what wants whit the pak fa. In near future plans will be revealed i think. Now a question : which is more atracttive the pak fa or f22/f35?
    Cause that matters a lot....
    Now strictly to military issues a high altitude bomber is best. Cause has hig altitude where no much missiles can go where cannons cant hit where radar is less effective and add the stealth tehnology make him a silent hunter. For a low altitude kind like f22 stealth means a lot. But....for sure this kind of aircraft is a compromise. Cause the amterials used the shape and so on make him deviate from usually known lines for speed turns payload and others.
    Notice that all armies hear about multiple radar tracking that can see a sthealt plane. Is only need a math person to say exacly the places where radars must be put so that covers all angles. At any given time must be at least one radar that receive the waves for every possible 360 turn of stealth plane. Notice that the shape dont help too much cause radars can be placed up somewhere thus anulate the shape form deviation of aircraft.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #2

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:38 am

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