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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3

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    Cyrus the great

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    Post  Cyrus the great on Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    this is getting ugly. until i dont get some help from you i will not understand well what you want. maybe someone can explain clearly what is your opinion upon my case of schisophrenia and what are the problems in your opinion and opinion on west east dispute

    Friend you should not expect good advice from the internet.

    Speak to your doctor.

    Keep taking the drugs you have been given to control your condition.

    Make sure you take them when you are supposed to.

    At the moment a few people have been suggesting you are trolling and should be banned.

    If you want to be able to keep posting here (I hope it helps you to do so... and is why I am not considering banning you) then please try to post in the threads for questions and answers and the thread you created for advice.

    Please also remember sometimes we don't have all the answers... don't take no answers as us ignoring you or not caring.

    I do.

    Take you meds when you should... stay calm... you are with friends.  Smile

    How do the Russian AESA radars compare to American and Israeli AESA radars?

    The Russians had PESA radars in service on MiG-31 fighters since the late 1970s, while the US had PESA radars on the B-1B. The US has had operational AESA radars in service for some time now and has rather more experience of them in aircraft. Russia has had a lot less money invested over the last 3 decades , but has enormous potential and I would suggest has had better planning in that AESA modules will likely be unified in design for air platforms, ground and sea surface platforms and when they start production they will be produced in enormous numbers.

    AESA radars are more capable, but in the sense that not every soldier in the army has the training or need to carry around a heavy sniper rifle and a scope worth $30,000... most of the time a decent assault rifle will do the job, and sometimes even just a sub machine gun will be the best solution.

    The Israelis even have radars that can apparently detect stealth aircraft from long range.

    Russia also has large strategic radars reportedly able to detect paint chips in space, and cruise missiles and stealth aircraft at very long range.

    Not really the same as fitting an AESA radar in the nose of a fighter aircraft though.


    I take what you say on board and I agree with the fact that the Russian's aren't quite as experienced with AESA radars as countries like the United States and Israel, but the new N036 Byelka seems to be really capable. It has a detection range of 400 km and has 358 T/R modules which seems to compare favorably to the Israeli EL/M-2052 AESA radar which has a range of 300 km with 512 T/R modules. By contrast the American AN/APG-81 radar has a detection range of 150 km and 1, 000 T/R modules. I just hope the Russians bridge [and eventually eliminate] the little gap that remains in this particular field very soon.
    Berkut
    Berkut

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    Post  Berkut on Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:30 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    I take what you say on board and I agree with the fact that the Russian's aren't quite as experienced with AESA radars as countries like the United States and Israel, but the new N036 Byelka seems to be really capable. It has a detection range of 400 km and has 358 T/R modules which seems to compare favorably to the Israeli EL/M-2052 AESA radar which has a range of 300 km with 512 T/R modules. By contrast the American AN/APG-81 radar has a detection range of 150 km and 1, 000 T/R modules. I just hope the Russians bridge [and eventually eliminate] the little gap that remains in this particular field very soon.

    N036 doesn't have 358 T/R Modules. N036B does. And detection range tells pretty much nothing unless the detection range is tied to RCS. Your APG-81 and N036 examples are not the same.
    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo on Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:40 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Book. wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:

    How do the Russian AESA radars compare to American and Israeli AESA radars?

    Israel AESA mock toy never producion.

    I think only static show. lack the money


    The Israeli EL/M-2052 AESA radar is in production and has been sold to customers, I just don't know how it compares to Russia's AESA radars. The Israelis even have radars that can apparently detect stealth aircraft from long range. Source: http://osnetdaily.com/2015/06/stealth-no-more-israeli-radar-tracks-stealth-aircraft-from-hundreds-of-kilometers-away/

    Persian Boy, there is really a lot of  AESA radar around, just the ones aboard a fighter is still quite rare but on Awacs, patrol aircraft, warships, AD systems even helicopters they are really ubiquitous now.
    Just as an example: those are just some of the ones that come from my country.
    http://www.selex-es.com/-/picosar-1
    http://www.selex-es.com/it/-/seaspray_5000e-1
    http://www.selex-es.com/it/-/raven-1
    All airborne and yes there is also a fighter one.

    On warships  as an example USA are instead pretty late when compared with their european allies and Burke would have AESA just between same years.

    An interesting thing is that Bars,Irbis and Zaslon-M radars are PESA when emitting but each of their antenna modules has a receiver signal amplifier exactly like the one in AESA.
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    Cyrus the great

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    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:21 am

    marcellogo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Book. wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:

    How do the Russian AESA radars compare to American and Israeli AESA radars?

    Israel AESA mock toy never producion.

    I think only static show. lack the money


    The Israeli EL/M-2052 AESA radar is in production and has been sold to customers, I just don't know how it compares to Russia's AESA radars. The Israelis even have radars that can apparently detect stealth aircraft from long range. Source: http://osnetdaily.com/2015/06/stealth-no-more-israeli-radar-tracks-stealth-aircraft-from-hundreds-of-kilometers-away/

    Persian Boy, there is really a lot of  AESA radar around, just the ones aboard a fighter is still quite rare but on Awacs, patrol aircraft, warships, AD systems even helicopters they are really ubiquitous now.
    Just as an example: those are just some of the ones that come from my country.
    http://www.selex-es.com/-/picosar-1
    http://www.selex-es.com/it/-/seaspray_5000e-1
    http://www.selex-es.com/it/-/raven-1
    All airborne and yes there is also a fighter one.

    On warships  as an example USA are instead pretty late when compared with their european allies and Burke would have AESA just between same years.

    An interesting thing is that Bars,Irbis and Zaslon-M radars are PESA when emitting but each of their antenna modules has a receiver signal amplifier exactly like the one in AESA.

    'Persian boy'? LOL! I'm not Persian, I just use this as my pseudonym because I greatly admire the man. It was a toss-up between Genghis Khan and Cyrus the great - men that both raised their peoples from nothing, from the shadows of others. Thanks for the information.
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    Post  Austin on Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:17 am

    Via Jane's IDR/ Piotr Butowski/Aug 2014/secretprojets (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22701.0 )

    Via Jane's IDR/ Piotr Butowski/Aug 2014/secretprojets

    Russia is preparing a precision guidance revolution for its fast jet, strike, and bomber forces. Piotr Butowski reviews developments Russian defence minister Sergey Shoygu told a large Russian armed forces planning session in July 2013 that he intended to greatly bolster the services' stocks of 'smart' precision-guided weapons. He said that over the next three years "we will increase the number of guided missiles by five times, and by 2020 thirty times" over current stocks, and just over 12 months into that plan, Russia is making progress. Shoygu used the term "krylatyie rakety" (winged missiles), which in Russia usually means air-to-surface missiles, and non-ballistic naval and land missiles. It is not known exactly how many of those weapons are currently available, but the assessment is that it is a relatively low base number to make such a substantial increase possible. Certainly experience in Georgia in 2008 and then more recent conflicts highlighted a lack of precision capability.

    In April 2013, assistant defence minister - and former commander-in-chief of the Russian Air Force - Alexander Zelin appeared at a convention of aviation manufacturers in Moscow, where he said new versions of the K-74M, K-77-1 (AA-12 'Adder') and K-37M (AA-X-13) air-to-air missiles, tactical Kh-59MK2, Kh-31PM (AS-17 'Krypton'), Kh-35U (AS-20 'Kayak') and other air-to-surface missiles were beginning evaluation or production. They are being followed by K-74M2 and K-77M air-to-air and Kh-38 air-to-surface missiles - for internal carriage by the PAK FA; KAB-250L, KAB-500M and UPAB-1500 (izdeliye K-070) guided bombs; and the new Kh-ZRK anti-radiation missile. Zelin did not talk about strategic missiles, but did mention two large air-to-surface missiles with a range of more than 1,000 km; the subsonic Kh-SD-ON and hypersonic GZ UR. Kh-101/Kh-102 Shortly afterwards, in October 2013, the commander of the state flight evaluation centre at Akhtubinsk (929th GLITs), Radik Bariyev, published a presentation on the centre's recent work in the Russian press. Three versions of the Kh-101/Kh-102 (izdeliye 111) subsonic cruise missiles appear in the GLITs testing paperwork - izdeliye 504B, 504A, and 504AP (in the order they were tested) - but scant details are known of how they differ. It may be that the A and B suffixes denote whether the warhead is conventional or nuclear, as both are known to be available. Documents from the 1990s revealed an izdeliye 504E, but that is considered an experimental or lead-in design. Various sources indicate that the Raduga Kh-101/102 was first launched from Tu-95MS and Tu-160 bombers in 2004. Then, in 2010 the NPO Saturn engine plant made and handed over to State Machine Building Design Bureau 'Raduga' (Raduga Design Bureau) the first production batch of the izdeliye 84 engines, suggesting that series production began in 2010-2011. Boris Obnosov, head of the Tactical Missiles Corporation (TM Corporation) announced in 2011 that the organisation had received a state award to deliver a "new product for strategic aviation". Only one such award is granted across the whole arms industry each year, so it must have concerned an exceptionally important type of weapon and the only known product that fits that description is the Kh-101/Kh-102 missile. In January 2014 the commander of Russian long-range aviation Lieutenant General Anatoly Zhikharev told the press that this year the service would perform the first launches of new missiles. The Kh-101/Kh-102 is about 7.5 m long and weighs 2,400 kg. It boasts a range understood to be in the order of 4,000 km in non-nuclear configuration, or 5,000 km in the nuclear version. Its guidance system combines a gimbal-free inertial navigation system (INS), satellite navigation receiver, radar altimeter terrain contour matching (TERCOM) system and an Otblesk-U optoelectronic digital scene-matching area correlation (DSMAC) package. Exact production numbers are hard to come by, but an indicator came in July 2013 when NPO Saturn announced it had signed two large contracts to provide engines for missiles made by Raduga Design Bureau by 2015. Together, those contracts are valued at more than RUB4 billion (USD110 million) to Raduga Design Bureau by 2015, and roughly valuing one engine to be circa RUB7 million means that the order can be assessed to be for around 550 engines.

    Tactical missiles


    Russia is currently working on three 'operational' level missiles with a range of 1,000-2,000 km - the subsonic Kh-SD, supersonic Kh-MTs and a hypersonic project. The Kh-SD (Sredney Dalnosti - medium-range) subsonic missile was believed to have been halted in circa 2011, but may have been revived as Zelin spoke of the Kh-SD-ON designation. Raduga Design Bureau is also currently launching production of a new missile known as izdeliye 715, which according to one source will arm the upgraded Tu-95MSM strategic bomber, although it is not yet known if the missile is for trials or series production. It may be that izdeliye 715 is actually the Kh-SD missile, for which design work began in the early 1990s. The Kh-SD shared the guidance system of the Kh-101, but has a smaller, low-observable airframe and was roughly analogous with the US AGM-158 JASSM. It measured about 6 m long, and weighed roughly 1,500 kg at launch, able to cover a range of up to 2,000 km. IHS Jane's understands that it may have two warhead options: a penetrating payload for use against deep, reinforced targets; or a cluster of submunitions to tackle area targets. Despite its size, the Kh-SD missile could be carried by Su-34 tactical bombers, as well as larger strategic aircraft. The latter are also expected to be armed with izdeliye 75, which is currently at the technical design stage with the TM Corporation team at Korolev near Moscow. Izdeliye 75 is likely to be a supersonic operational/tactical-level missile designated Kh-MTs. Like the Kh-SD, the supersonic Kh-MTs is also 6 m long (the maximum size accommodated by the Tu-95MS bomber's bomb bay) and weighs about 1,500 kg. It is to be powered by a ramjet, accelerated up to operating speed by a booster rocket, and be able to reach targets up to 1,000 km away when flying a high lofted profile. An active/passive radar known as Gran-75 is currently in development with Detal and is expected to be fitted to the Kh-MTs. The broadband passive-channel seeker is being made by TsKBA in Omsk. Another shadowy missile, known as the izdeliye 80 Grom (Thunder) is being created by TM Corporation, but virtually nothing is known about it beyond superlative claims from the developer.

    Hypersonic programme

    According to Zelin's pronouncement, Russia has a very ambitious two-staged hypersonic missile development programme under way. He described how the first stage envisages development of a relatively small air-launched missile with a range of 1,500 km and a speed of about Mach 6 by 2020. This should be followed in the next decade by a Mach 12 weapon offering global coverage. Some analysts have connected research for Russia's GZ UR (Giper-Zvukovaya Upravleniya Raketa - Hyper-Sonic Guided Missile) with studies of the MBDA LEA hypersonic vehicle conducted in Russia and work with India on the putatively hypersonic Brahmos-2 programme, but there is no open source evidence confirming that. In October and November 2012, Russia and India made a preliminary agreement to work toward a Brahmos-2 and a model was shown at the Aero India 2013 exhibition. However, Russian exhibition participants asserted that the project has little in common with Russia's hypersonic missile and is only a demonstration of intent and possibilities. Nevertheless, there is significant Russian industrial co-operation with India, involving NPO Mashinostroeniya (the missile), TMKB Soyuz (powerplant), TsAGI (aerodynamic research) and TsIAM (engine tests). The primary aim of working together is to share and reduce the costs of any resulting technologies as it is very likely that the same contractors are working on GZ UR. The incorporation of NPO Mashinostroeniya into the TM Corporation in October 2012 formally noted one of the goals as "mastering hypersonic technologies". One of Russia's advantages in hypersonic testing is easy access to Tu-22M3s as a large, fast launch platform. Currently configured for the LEA project, testing typically involves mounting a hypersonic test vehicle on the forward section of a Kh-22 (AS-4 'Kitchen') missile, which is then launched at speeds of up to Mach 1.7 and altitudes of 14,000 m (46,000 ft). The Kh-22 boosts the test vehicle to a maximum speed of Mach 6.3 and lofts it to more than double the altitude before launching the test element. With sanctions breaking out and relations generally deteriorating between Russia and Western Europe over the conflict in Ukraine, this project may be imperilled, but France is managing to sustain closer ties than most of its neighbours not least because of its commitment to the Mistral amphibious assault ship deal. Meanwhile, Russia has been simultaneously using the Tu-22M3/Kh-22 combination to explore its own hypersonic vehicle research since 2012, when DMZ built four adapted Kh-22s for hypersonic trials.

    PAK FA strike

    The exact anti-surface weapons fit of the PAK FA is still closely guarded, but fragments of information point to the aircraft's internal bays hosting the Kh-58UShK (also known as the D7UShK) variant of the AS-11 'Kilter', and Kh-38M izdeliye 65 air-to-surface missiles, K047 (KAB-250L) laser-guided bombs and the izdeliye 180 (K-77M), izdeliye 270, and izdeliye 810 air-to-air missiles. The Kh-58UShK anti-radiation missile developed by the Raduga Design Bureau is a very thorough upgrade of the Kh-58U missile that has been in service since the 1980s, itself an upgrade of the earlier Kh-58 (izdeliye 112). The U in the suffix stems from Uluchshennaya (improved), the K from Kompaktnaya (compact), as the missile is only 4.19 m long rather than the earlier missile's 4.81 m and with folding wings and shortened empennage, the missile will fit into the fighter's internal weapons bay. The Sh element of the suffix indicates that it is fitted with a new broadband (Shirokodyapazonnaya) passive 9B-7735K radar seeker which can encompass all current air-defence radars, according to the developers. The legacy weapon had to be fitted with one of three narrower band seekers matched to likely threats in theatre. The Kh-58UShKE (E for 'export') missile boasts a maximum range of 245 km when launched from 20,000 m at a speed of Mach 1.5, or 76 km from 200 m altitude, hitting a maximum speed of 4,200 km/h as it streaks towards its target. However, that performance envelope is based on underwing carriage and internal stowage may affect this. The Kh-58UShK has undergone tests on the Su-34 tactical bomber and has been in series production since 2012.China is understood to be currently negotiating a large order of Kh-58UShKE missiles, seeking to begin deliveries in 2015. The missile's suitability for internal carriage means it is probably destined for the J-20. The Kh-38M (izdeliye 65) is a universal new-generation air-to-surface missile set to replace the Kh-25M (AS-10 'Karen') and Kh-29 (AS-14 'Kedge'), the most popular current air-to-surface missiles originating in Russia. Initial launches of Kh-38M missiles (albeit with no seeker) were made from an AKU-58 launcher attached to an Su-34 in 2010. According to GLITs, the laser-guided 65ML missile (also known as the Kh-38ML, or MLE for export) completed state testing in 2013 and trials have now begun for a number of variants. However, the latest financial documents from the Azov-based AOMZ Company, which makes the semi-active 65SNL laser seeker for the Kh-38ML, note that the missile's state tests actually slipped through 2014. AOMZ is also designing an imaging infrared (IIR) seeker for another version of the missile Kh-38MT (or MTE for export). Other variants include the Kh-38MA (export MAE) version, fitted with an ARGS-38 active radar seeker and the Kh-38MK (export MKE, K for cluster) anti-tank variant, which delivers a number of independently targeted submunitions to take on multiple armoured vehicle targets. During the cruise stage, all versions of the missile are guided by the Ts-074MD INS with satellite navigation updates.The Kh-38ML is a heavy missile weighing up to 520 kg, up to 250 kg of which is warhead (BS-65F high-explosive/fragmentation or BS-65P penetrating, depending on type). The maximum range is 40 km, which is doubled in the Kh-38MK version.

    Lightweight missiles


    Zelin asserted that Russian industry is also working on another anti-radiation missile, the Kh-ZRK (Zenitnyi Raketnyi Kompleks - anti-aircraft missile complex). It is still not confirmed exactly what missile this refers to, but Zelin also complained about the lack of funding for "anti-radiation missile for carrier self-defence, including for combat helicopters", which matches the Kh-36P missile, also mentioned within the PAK FA's weapons suite by Sokolovsky. The Kh-36P was a short-range anti-radiation missile with roughly the same footprint as the R-77 air-to-air missile. Zvezda-Strela began development in the early 1990s, before the collapse of the Soviet Union saw the project sequentially suspended and resumed. Its current status is unknown and the missile has not been displayed in public, but it may still be an open requirement. However, another project using elements of the Kh-36P, codenamed LMUR (Lyogkaya Mnogotselevaya Upravlaemaya Raketa - lightweight multi-target guided missile) but also known as izdeliye 70, seems to be faring better. The only known picture of the LMUR dates from 2013, when it was shown with the Mi-28MN attack helicopter, showing a system resembling the current Shturm and Ataka anti-tank missiles.

    New guided bombs


    State Scientific and Production Enterprise (GNPP) 'Region', the only company that currently makes guided bombs in Russia, is testing three new designs of 250, 500 and 1,500 kg weapons, the smaller two fitting inside the PAK FA weapons bay. Even smaller bombs are planned, but work has not yet begun and critics have lamented the lack of development of an equivalent to the US' guided small-diameter bomb families. GNPP Region was contracted to work on the KAB-250L (Korrektiruyemaya Aviatsyonnaya Bomba - corrected aerial bomb; L for laser), also known as K047, in April 2007. The KAB-250L features AOMZ's 27NM-G gyro-stabilised laser seeker and a satellite navigation receiver. Test drops were planned from an Su-34 in 2010, but the development deadlines have still not been met, with seeker and flight control system immaturity cited as the main issues causing the delay. A KAB-250 has been seen beneath the wing of an Su-34 at GLITs, but formal testing is only now expected this year or next. Various official documents state that another bomb, the electro-optic (EO)-guided KAB-500M (izdeliye K08), had been undergoing state testing as early as 2012, but it has never been shown publicly. The only open source image attributed to the KAB-500M bomb is a small model displayed at ILA 2000 in Berlin. The largest of the new guided bombs, the 1,500-kg UPAB-1500 can only be carried externally, for example attached to the APU-172-1 launcher on the Su-34 (it is also destined for the Tu-22M3 and Tu-160). It was shown at a closed exhibition at Akhtubinsk in September 2005, fitted with four folding wings, which apparently enable it to reach 70 km when dropped from altitude, in contrast with 20 km for the wingless KAB-1500. UPAB-1500 can be fitted with various seekers, including active radar, to aid accuracy.

    Upgrading the legacy


    In addition to these new systems, Russia is also upgrading the Kh-31, Kh-35 and Kh-59 (AS-13 'Kingbolt') large tactical missiles.The Kh-31PM (izdeliye 06), known as the Kh-31PD in its export variant, is a supersonic anti-radiation missile, which entered production in 2012. It has a stretched body measuring 5.34 m (up from the Kh-31P's 4.7 m) to accommodate more propellant in the launch booster and fuel for the cruise motor, increasing range from 110 km to 180-250 km at a speed of Mach 1.5. The missile also features a new digital engine control module and a new broadband passive seeker (in place of the legacy configuration of three interchangeable seekers), and a 110 kg warhead, 23 kg heavier than on the original variant. TM Corporation is also developing the Kh-31AM (Kh-31AD in export form), an anti-shipping spin-off of the Kh-31PM. This missile is fitted with an upgraded U505M active seeker developed by St Petersburg-based Radar MMS. TM Corporation's Obnosov announced the completion of tests of the Kh-31AD earlier this year. Meanwhile, TM Corporation's subsonic Kh-35U missile (izdeliye 07), known as the Kh-35UE in its export version, was launched for the first time in November 2010, using an Su-34 as the host aircraft. Initial tests of the missile were completed in November 2012 and state acceptance tests followed in 2013. Kh-35U retains the external dimensions of the Kh-35, but has a new, much smaller izdeliye 64M turbofan engine enabling it to carry more fuel and doubling the range to 260 km. Performance is enhanced with Radar MMS' new U-502U seeker (although the Gran-K seeker made by Detal is also being tested). It also features a Ts-074U INS and satellite navigation receiver. A final variant, known as the Kh-35UL (Kh-35EUL for export) is a lightweight version developed for carriage by MiG-29K.Raduga Design Bureau's Kh-59M (AS-18 'Kazoo') - also known as izdeliye D9M or 106M - has been in production for three decades and has spawned three new variants that are currently in development.The Kh-59M2 (D9M2, 106M2), being offered for export as Kh-59M2E, has basically the same flight characteristics as the older missiles - a range of 115 km and maximum speed of Mach 0.88 - but introduces an improved seeker (the M has a TV seeker and the M2 a low-light TV package) and adds satellite navigation. This increases launch weight by 30 kg to 960 kg. The Kh-59M2A (export designation Kh-59MK), is an anti-ship variant fitted with Radar MMS' ARGS-59 active radar seeker in lieu of the TV camera. The Kh-59M2A also shuns the legacy launch rocket booster - needed in the Kh-59M/M2 missile due to the limitations of the TV guidance system. The Kh-59M/M2 has a TV seeker, the picture from which is transmitted to the fighter aircraft and used by the second crew member to guide the missile to the target through the command line. To use the Kh-59M missile, the APK-9 video and command transmission pod has to be suspended on the aircraft. To establish a connection for the video transmission just after the launch, the missile is quickly put ahead of the aircraft using a rocket booster. It works for several seconds and "delivers" the missile 1,000 m in front of the aircraft, at the same altitude. Once the video connection is established, the aircraft turns back; the connection is then automatically switched from the front to the rear antenna of the APK-9 control pod. By not using the launch rocket booster space is freed up and weight reduced, enabling larger fuel reserves to be carried for the turbofan cruise engine. This more than doubles the missile's range to 285 km in the export variant. The Kh-59M2A was launched for the first time by an Su-30MK2 in 2004, but state testing was not completed until 2013. Production of both missiles is commencing at the SmAZ plant at Smolensk. An export version Kh-59MK2 fitted with an Otblesk DSMAC system - previously developed for the Kh-555 and Kh-101 strategic cruise missiles - instead of the radar seeker was presented for the first time in 2009. However, the status of that project is unclear and it is known only in the export version, with no apparent domestic market equivalent.

    Air-to-air missiles


    New air-to-air missiles, all developed by Moscow's Vympel, are also being developed under a two-stage programme.Firstly, legacy missile types - the R-74M, R-77-1 and K-37M - are being modernised, while new designs such as the K-74M2, K-77M, izdeliye 270 and izdeliye 810 are being worked on. Only the four new designs are thought to be intended for internal carriage in the PAK FA. The K-74M (izdeliye 750, RVV-MD for export) short-range air-to-air missile finished state acceptance tests on 3 October 2012 and in June the following year, Moscow-based Duks secured an order from the Ministry of Defence for series production of the missile, which transitioned from the 'K' development designation to the R-74M. This is being built in two versions, the R-74MK with a radar proximity fuze and R-74ML with a laser fuze. R-73 (AA-11 'Archer') and R-74 - with both fuze options - are difficult to tell apart, as the redesign that created the R-74M has not altered the external appearance from that of the R-73. The R-74M variants were originally fitted with a dual-band Impuls IIR seeker made by Arsenal in Ukraine, the same company behind the Mayak seeker in the R-73. Arsenal's Impuls is more sensitive than the Mayak and has higher off-boresight visibility of +/-60° rather than the +/-45° offered by the R-73. However, the current disquiet between the countries has rendered this situation more complicated and it is unclear exactly what impact this has had, and what contingencies Russia has in place. As of mid-2014, the Karfagen seeker from Russia's AOMZ company was not yet ready for production. Stepping up to the beyond-visual range domain, the R-77-1 (izdeliye 170-1 or RVV-SD for export) medium-range missile has refined aerodynamics over the legacy R-77 version, with a more streamlined nose cone and hidden control fin fittings. Beneath the skin, the missile's software control system has been updated and the 9B-1348-1 (izdeliye 50-1) radar seeker has a more powerful transmitter and more sensitive receiver. The designers claim that taken together, these performance and kinematic improvements have extended the missile's range by 30 km to 110 km and increased its g -loading by about one third. The K-77-1 missile - which is manufactured by Vympel - was launched for the first time from an Su-27SM(3) fighter in September 2010. Next up the scale is the heavy, long-range K-37M (izdeliye 610M), also known as the RVV-BD, which passed its Russian acceptance evaluations in early 2014. This has been a long time coming, as it is nearly 21 years since the original version K-37 was first launched from a MiG-31M, knocking down an aerial target 228 km away in August 1993. Development resumed in the beginning of the new millennium with the improved K-37M. This was specifically developed for the enhanced MiG-31BM interceptor, but Vympel asserts that it is a universal missile for the full range of Russian fighters - current marketing data shows the missile being launched by a MiG-35 lightweight fighter. The RVV-BD export version reportedly has the internal designation izdeliye 620 and is a variant of the K-37M missile, albeit using a different warhead and software (the Russian K-37M can be armed with a nuclear warhead). Vympel claims a 200 km maximum range in head-on engagements against "some types of targets", which is rather nebulous but is understood to mean against large aircraft. The K-37M (now entering production as the R-73M) is powered by a dual-mode solid-propellant rocket motor and features an MFBU-610MSh Shayba dual-band ( X- and Ku-band) active radar seeker developed by Agat and built by Detal. Turning back to the PAK FA, progress is being made on the compact new short-range K-74M2 (izdeliye 760) missile intended for the aircraft's small outer weapons bays, in a system reminiscent of the long-abandoned K-30 (izdeliye 300) missile. The K-74M2 is expected to be fitted with Azov AOMZ's new Karfagen-760 (Carthage) seeker, backed up by an inertial flight-control system and course-correction datalink, and powered by an improved rocket motor. The missile has yet to be seen in public and its exact development status is unclear, with some sources saying that the Karfagen-760 seeker is still being built and that the missile is being tested with a provisional seeker fit. A little more detail is known of the K-77M (izdeliye 180) medium-range AAM. Visually, it differs from the R-77-1 because it swaps that missile's unusual folding lattice tail fins for more conventional solid control surfaces. Its active radar seeker is made by Istok and, together with a new double-impulse, solid-propellant motor (in place of the R-77's single-impulse motor) helps extend the missile's operating envelope from the R-77's 16 km out to 25 km. The new motor contains more propellant and has an adjustable time interval between the two burns. K-77M also features a new course-correction datalink with a much shorter relay time and what the developer describes as a more precise inertial control system, along with more powerful batteries. Vympel has also been working for several years on a new izdeliye 270 medium-range AAM as a K-77M follow-on, but virtually no details have been confirmed beyond that. Russia also remains wedded to the concept of very long range interceptions and the izdeliye 610M missile forms the basis for the new izdeliye 810. The airframe has been revised for internal carriage and fitted with a dual-impulse motor, which the developers claim should enable the missile to reach targets out to extremely long ranges - circa 300 km. Guidance is provided by a new MFBU-810 broadband passive/active radar seeker.


    Last edited by Austin on Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:45 am



    My vote to you Austin.

    A little detail in this article contain an element of enormous, strategical, importance (in gaining an assymetrical advantage in very hot times...) and explain why a particular platform continue to retain central attention in the Federation's Doctrine Wink .
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:49 am

    Im still not understand the rationale of the Iz-180. Why move to conventional fin if in fact Grid fins offer superior control performance ?

    Some factors i can think of however :
    1.RCS..but this can be alleviated by folding the fin.
    2.Manufacturing cost
    3.Aerodynamics, as Grid fins are draggy in Transonic, might not be good for the carrier aircraft. But again folding the fin may solve the problem
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    Post  Austin on Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:11 pm

    Looking at the picture of Id 180 from the picture

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-T7m-Myk-6ks/Vdh5sx4-MsI/AAAAAAAAqps/L6h3TrZz0Hc/s800/All%2Bweapons%2Bcarried%2Bby%2BRussia%2527s%2Bnext%2Bgeneration%2Bfighter.jpg

    It looks like a bigger UK ASRAAM in design , using Rear Control Surfaces for manouvering.

    The goal seems to be reduce Drag and Improve Manovering , trading off some improving in range thats offered by mid-control surface.

    I suspect since the missile has enough energy for long range they dont want to burden End Game Manouvering with dragier control surface , I think they will use rear control surface and TVC for manouvering may be even employing side thrusters for lateral manouvering
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:37 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:

    My vote to you Austin.

    A little detail in this article contain an element of enormous, strategical, importance (in gaining an assymetrical advantage in very hot times...) and explain why a particular platform continue to retain central attention in the Federation's Doctrine Wink .  

    Well don't keep us in suspense, Mindstorm. What is this wunderwaffe?
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    Post  marcellogo on Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:44 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Book. wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:

    How do the Russian AESA radars compare to American and Israeli AESA radars?

    Israel AESA mock toy never producion.

    I think only static show. lack the money


    The Israeli EL/M-2052 AESA radar is in production and has been sold to customers, I just don't know how it compares to Russia's AESA radars. The Israelis even have radars that can apparently detect stealth aircraft from long range. Source: http://osnetdaily.com/2015/06/stealth-no-more-israeli-radar-tracks-stealth-aircraft-from-hundreds-of-kilometers-away/

    Persian Boy, there is really a lot of  AESA radar around, just the ones aboard a fighter is still quite rare but on Awacs, patrol aircraft, warships, AD systems even helicopters they are really ubiquitous now.
    Just as an example: those are just some of the ones that come from my country.
    http://www.selex-es.com/-/picosar-1


    http://www.selex-es.com/it/-/seaspray_5000e-1
    http://www.selex-es.com/it/-/raven-1
    All airborne and yes there is also a fighter one.

    On warships  as an example USA are instead pretty late when compared with their european allies and Burke would have AESA just between same years.

    An interesting thing is that Bars,Irbis and Zaslon-M radars are PESA when emitting but each of their antenna modules has a receiver signal amplifier exactly like the one in AESA.

    'Persian boy'? LOL! I'm not Persian, I just use this as my pseudonym because I greatly admire the man. It was a toss-up between Genghis Khan and Cyrus the great - men that both raised their peoples from nothing, from the shadows of others. Thanks for the information.

    Cyrus the Great, sorry, sorry, sorry, my fault, It was really late on the night and I wrote it all in a rush so I mistaken your name with another one.
    Persian Boy was the nickname of a very valuable contributor of former Military photos getting a contested permaban for having published an absolutely normal article about Kata-ib Hezbollah...
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    Post  Glyph on Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:58 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:

    My vote to you Austin.

    A little detail in this article contain an element of enormous, strategical, importance (in gaining an assymetrical advantage in very hot times...) and explain why a particular platform continue to retain central attention in the Federation's Doctrine Wink .  

    Well don't keep us in suspense, Mindstorm. What is this wunderwaffe?

    Tu-22M3, it value cannot understated.


    Testing platform of hypersound velocities.

    Cruise missiles, IRBMs, etc will look like trinket compared to their power.

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    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:47 am

    marcellogo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:
    Book. wrote:
    Cyrus the great wrote:

    How do the Russian AESA radars compare to American and Israeli AESA radars?

    Israel AESA mock toy never producion.

    I think only static show. lack the money


    The Israeli EL/M-2052 AESA radar is in production and has been sold to customers, I just don't know how it compares to Russia's AESA radars. The Israelis even have radars that can apparently detect stealth aircraft from long range. Source: http://osnetdaily.com/2015/06/stealth-no-more-israeli-radar-tracks-stealth-aircraft-from-hundreds-of-kilometers-away/

    Persian Boy, there is really a lot of  AESA radar around, just the ones aboard a fighter is still quite rare but on Awacs, patrol aircraft, warships, AD systems even helicopters they are really ubiquitous now.
    Just as an example: those are just some of the ones that come from my country.
    http://www.selex-es.com/-/picosar-1


    http://www.selex-es.com/it/-/seaspray_5000e-1
    http://www.selex-es.com/it/-/raven-1
    All airborne and yes there is also a fighter one.

    On warships  as an example USA are instead pretty late when compared with their european allies and Burke would have AESA just between same years.

    An interesting thing is that Bars,Irbis and Zaslon-M radars are PESA when emitting but each of their antenna modules has a receiver signal amplifier exactly like the one in AESA.

    'Persian boy'? LOL! I'm not Persian, I just use this as my pseudonym because I greatly admire the man. It was a toss-up between Genghis Khan and Cyrus the great - men that both raised their peoples from nothing, from the shadows of others. Thanks for the information.

    Cyrus the Great, sorry, sorry, sorry, my fault, It was really late on the night and I wrote it all in a rush so I mistaken your name with another one.
    Persian Boy was the nickname of a very valuable contributor of former Military photos getting a contested permaban for having published an absolutely normal article about Kata-ib Hezbollah...

    No worries. It's alright, mate. My pseudonym would suggest to others that I was Persian.
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    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:52 am

    Me posting development on PAK-FA missile etc has created panic by American on BRF thread , in total denial Laughing

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6811&start=840
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:46 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:Im still not understand the rationale of the Iz-180. Why move to conventional fin if in fact Grid fins offer superior control performance ?

    Stealthflanker, Off Topic question. Is it true that Britain along with Japanese troops in 1945 assisted the Dutch to restore colonial rule in Indonesia? Thanks.

    Austin wrote:Me posting development on PAK-FA missile etc has created panic by American on BRF thread , in total denial  Laughing

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6811&start=840

    What...??? Austin vs US...?? What is India's highest gallantry medal thumbsup
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:59 am

    Austin wrote:Me posting development on PAK-FA missile etc has created panic by American on BRF thread , in total denial  Laughing

    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6811&start=840

    The responses are weird... Whenever Russian come up with something...ppl that dislike it often come up with these :

    1.Shitty technical feature argument (The X is inferior etc... blablabla..)
    2.That weapon will make Russia bankrupt.


    No 2 argument were used at that Bharat rakhsak thread.


    Jhelb wrote:Stealthflanker, Off Topic question. Is it true that Britain along with Japanese troops in 1945 assisted the Dutch to restore colonial rule in Indonesia? Thanks.

    For this. Well, according to our History lesson. After Japanese surrendered to the Allied at 1945, remaining Japanese troops in Indonesia were tasked to maintain status quo, until the arrival of AFNEI (Allied Forces of Nederland East Indies) This AFNEI was a joint forces between Dutch (Known as NICA- Nederland Indies Civil Administration) and British Led by Lt. Gen Sir Philip Christison.

    So yes, the British assisted the Dutch forces.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:29 pm

    Regarding the tail fin of the R-77, it is my understanding that it increases drag and RCS, but its main advantage is the airflow adheres to its surfaces better so with larger angles of attack the airflow remains attached to the lattice structure so it can be turned at greater angles without stalling, which effectively means it can be turned at a greater angle to the air flow and generate a stronger turning force than a fin before it stalls and just generates drag.

    this means the lattice fins offer much better manouver capability.

    Personally I had the idea long ago that if you want long range then go for a two stage missile with the lattice rear fins staying folded forward covered in a fairing attached to the rear rocket booster that has simple conventional fins to stabilise the missile in flight.

    When the rocket booster burns out it can be jettisoned but the rear lattice fins kept folded forward under the fairing and the conventional small rear fins kept while flying a lofted trajectory to the target just coasting. When it got to the target area the rest of the fairing and rear fins are dropped and the lattice fins deploy and the primary engine lights up to power the terminal attack.

    The Lattice fins will be available for hard turning when needed but covered over for the boost coast phase when its higher drag is not useful...
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    Post  Berkut on Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:00 pm

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 14 2487860_original
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    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:43 pm

    flamming_python wrote:What is this wunderwaffe?


    No wunderwaffe of any kind, rather a simple exploitation of an unilateral "advantage" offered by the combination of : an unique platform - MiG-31/31BM - and ,in future, partially the PAK-FA and obviously the perspective interceptor (which anyhow will still require much more development time than what "declared" in last weeks...) an unique class of weapons - K37M/and izdelyie-810 and.....nuclear warheads (naturally here the relatively high yield that can be hosted in the warhead section of such very long range air to air missiles is very profitable in term of thermal radiation radius/persistence and the related huge down-pressure lethal area generated).


    Well let put that VKO receive from a backscatter radar(for not name less obvious OTH elements) positional data -with error edge of some km- on a big coherent air group (let put 130-140 distinctive contac's signatures characteristic of the elements of an attack group shaped to attempt to penetrate a sector of the IAD: bombers ,theris DCA group, ISR aircraft and the associated EW coverage elements etc... from several thousands of km of distance.

    At this point no more than 5 MiG-31BM - and a single Il-78 to provide the fuel for the re-entry, each armed with four nuclear tipped K-37Ms (with much greater effective range in comparison with conventionally armed ones for the effect of the significantly lighter payload and the lack of any need to retain a part of the energy for end-game high-G maneuver) are ordered to take-off.

    The delivering platforms reach ,at this point,at very high speed the ideal altitude point of deliver and release theirs payload of 20 K-37M towards precomputed detonation points so to achieve complete saturation of the target's air sector with also a good "overkill edge"; now, even taking into account the mean backscattering positional error ,a similar attack wouldn't require likely even only in-flight target positional update ,but merely INS, to assure the complete destruction of a similar enemy aerial group from a stand-off range 5-6 times greater than that of enemy DCA elements.

    Similar attacks can be executed also against big saturating attacks by part of cruise missiles/drones/decoys ,always from very huge stand-off range, and with concept of operation very similar to that of nuclear tipped long range SAM.


    Those kind of unilater assimetric advantages capable to enromously devalue , up to the limit of the irrelevance, dozen of years of investment in air superiority platforms ,ISR assets and air space penetrating offensive elements , have obviously the great handicap to be completely unusable in regional and limited scale warfare.
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    Post  Glyph on Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:57 pm

    Why limit self Mindstorm?

    Voronezh allow for detection and tracking at practically takeoff, irregardless of "VLO stealth platforms". And if we speak of such future, you might mention orbital platforms, especially satellite EW. МРИС.

    It shall be interesting to witness B-3. Americans will not blunder like before, with B-2s quickly changed flight profile.
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    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:32 pm

    Glyph wrote:Why limit self Mindstorm?

    Voronezh allow for detection and tracking at practically takeoff, irregardless of "VLO stealth platforms". And if we speak of such future, you might mention orbital platforms, especially satellite EW. МРИС.

    It shall be interesting to witness B-3. Americans will not blunder like before, with B-2s quickly changed flight profile.

    Voronezh radar are operating in L and Meter band they may not be able to detect a B-2 or B-3 and more ever its orientiation is towards watching BM launches.

    But the container radar which is OTH radar , operating between 10m to 100 m wave length most certainly can detect B-2/B-3 or PAK-DA types

    BTW Gylph welcome to RDF , I saw some of your post in Keypubs and its good to have you here as you are very well informed and we all can learn and share
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    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:43 pm

    Can some one tell me what IR reduction feature has been incorporated in 117 Engine , Nozzle and over all IR reduction feature of PAK-FA ?
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:07 pm

    Austin wrote:Can some one tell me what IR reduction feature has been incorporated in 117 Engine , Nozzle and over all IR reduction feature of PAK-FA ?

    Unfortunately, no information about it.. im also looking at it now.

    Nonetheless my best bet the nozzle, if Sukhoi decided to retain axissymmetric nozzle may have similar treatment as US's LOAN.
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    Post  Glyph on Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:42 pm

    Some new weaponry.

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 14 23534010

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 14 23529910

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #3 - Page 14 23534610

    Photos taken from bmpd
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    Post  Glyph on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:03 pm

    Austin wrote:

    Voronezh radar are operating in L and Meter band they may not be able to detect a B-2 or B-3 and more ever its orientiation is towards watching BM launches.

    But the container radar which is OTH radar , operating between 10m to 100 m wave length most certainly can detect B-2/B-3 or PAK-DA types

    BTW Gylph welcome to RDF , I saw some of your post in Keypubs and its good to have you here as you are very well informed and we all can learn and share

    The urgent shift of B-2s flight profile to low level penetration due to S-300 proliferation alone, speak volumes to the real life figures of the rcs reduction in B-2s airframe.

    VHF/UHF radar only exacerbate the problem.

    Sure you know of Voronezh cruise missile tracking capability? Soon to be space spaced platform as well.


    Thank you for yours welcome.
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    Post  Austin on Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:09 pm

    Why two cruise missile one pointed nose and one boxy nose , whats the difference ? Also what that chart in Russian says ?

    Sponsored content

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