Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Share
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16717
    Points : 17325
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:20 am

    AFAIK the canards improved flight performance, but advances in flight control systems and of course TVC engines have negated that flight performance advantage to the point where the extra weight and cost and complication of canards was not justified on the Su-35.

    On the Su-34 they are part of an active flight system that allows the aircraft to fly fast at low level and counter turbulence actively, while on the Su-33 they generate lift at the nose at take off which adds to the lift of the aircraft whereas the horizontal tail surfaces help in the take off by pushing the tail down which results in a nose pitch up. In other words canards were a positive way to reduce approach speed and the speed at which the aircraft could safely take off.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    collegeboy16

    Posts : 1175
    Points : 1184
    Join date : 2012-10-05
    Age : 21
    Location : Roanapur

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:22 am

    Thrust vectoring nozzles should cover the lack of canards me thinkso
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Indian Air Force

    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:56 am

    collegeboy16 wrote:Thrust vectoring nozzles should cover the lack of canards me thinkso
    Indeed. And the TVC of Su-35S is more advance than the TVC of MKI. But will it improve the pitch, yaw, roll rate when compared with highly unstable canard equipped flankers like Su-30MKI or Su-37 Terminator, that is the real question?

    I think Sukhoi deliberately left it to reduce the RCS of Su-35S, trying to make it more closer to the 5th gen planes and the eurocanards. For dogfighting, a canard equipped fighter plane is still better as it is more unstable by design , IMO.


    Su-34 is not designed for dogfighting, so I think we should leave it in this discussion.
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:54 pm

    Only drawback of Mig-35 is that it is still not operational. This was one of the reasons why IAF didn't went for it(and of course "don't put all eggs in one basket argument").


    As a knife-fighter I think this thing would give Su-30MKI, and even the Su-35S, a run for their money. And its AESA radar should outperform the Irbis-E and NO11M Bars in a BVR fight as well Very Happy
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  TR1 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:12 pm

    I wouldn't be so sure.
    Irbis out-ranges is handily, just because it is not full AESA does not make it subjectively worse.

    In a knife-fight you really can't go wrong with either.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16717
    Points : 17325
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:41 am

    Only drawback of Mig-35 is that it is still not operational. This was one of the reasons why IAF didn't went for it(and of course "don't put all eggs in one basket argument").

    How many Rafales are there currently in Indian service?

    From what I have read the Mig-35 for the Russian AF needs a little bit of tweaking... perhaps a 6 weapon point wing (with wing tip missiles) and perhaps other design changes... and will be ready for production to start in 2016... not that far away.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4488
    Points : 4661
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:44 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Only drawback of Mig-35 is that it is still not operational. This was one of the reasons why IAF didn't went for it(and of course "don't put all eggs in one basket argument").

    How many Rafales are there currently in Indian service?

    From what I have read the Mig-35 for the Russian AF needs a little bit of tweaking... perhaps a 6 weapon point wing (with wing tip missiles) and perhaps other design changes... and will be ready for production to start in 2016... not that far away.

    And it's not likely Russia will ever put an arms embargo umbrella over India in the near-future, the same can't be said about France.
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:27 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Only drawback of Mig-35 is that it is still not operational. This was one of the reasons why IAF didn't went for it(and of course "don't put all eggs in one basket argument").

    How many Rafales are there currently in Indian service?

    From what I have read the Mig-35 for the Russian AF needs a little bit of tweaking... perhaps a 6 weapon point wing (with wing tip missiles) and perhaps other design changes... and will be ready for production to start in 2016... not that far away.
    Good question.

    But looking at IAF's criteria of having a "non-Russian(for diversification of weapon platforms) plus a tried and tested platform Rafale was probably their best choice.

    Having said that, the way the MRCA deal has been dealayed and the price has been jacked by the French($20billion), now this deal looks way too futile IMO.

    Who knows the next government may scrap this deal altogether, or cut the deal by half(i.e. only 60 planes, instead of 126 planned).

    And there is the opportunity for Mig to cash in. And I think you're correct, when we ordered MKIs, how many of them were operational?
    A big fat zero. Infact MKI will go down in the history of world military aviation as the first operation mass produced fighter plane with thrust vectoring.

    I think we should order atleast 60 Mig-35s off the shelf and buy 60 odd Rafales.

    But the problem here is not the Indian government, it's the IAF, IMO. They are completely mesmerized by this French plane. So lets see what happens in the next few months. A lot is in stake for Dassault, Mig, and of course IAF.

    PS: Garry, now that the yanks want to sell us the F-35. Do you think it will be better than Rafale to go for 100 odd Lightning IIs?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16717
    Points : 17325
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Only drawback of Mig-35 is that it is still not operational.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:00 am

    I think we should order atleast 60 Mig-35s off the shelf and buy 60 odd Rafales.

    Don't get me wrong... the French make excellent planes and the Rafale will certainly do an excellent job.

    It will however be very expensive and there is no guarantee that in the future France might not develop better relations with Pakistan and compromise certain features... like they did to Iraq during the Gulf war in 1991.

    Indias first choice for a stopgap medium fighter was local production of Mirage 2000s, but France clearly wanted an export success for Rafale for rather more money.

    I suspect the best compromise would have been to buy 40-50 Rafales to make France happy and then buy the licence to produce M2Ks and make 100-150 of them yourself. the resulting force could replace some of the Mig-21s, all of the Mig-27s and Jaguars, and some of the Mig-29s, with the remaining Mig21s being replaced by Tejas, and of course the remaining Mig-29s being upgraded to Mig-29UPG level.

    Gives you numbers without too much cost.

    At the end of the day it seems that France just wanted to sell Rafales.

    Regarding F-35s... I don't think it will be that much more capable than a Rafale... remember exported F-35s wont be as stealthy as domestic models... which likely wont be as stealthy as some seem to think anyway. Take away its stealth and you have a fairly sophisticated fighter wih a very limited range of weapons and limited capacity of weapons.... but you will have to wait even longer and probably pay even more...

    Of course I am completely biased and would say drop the stopgap MRCA programme... give upgrades to existing aircraft and focus on Tejas as a numbers fighter that doesn't need to be some do all super fighter like the US wants the F-35 to be. Some cooperation with MIG with their 5th gen light fighter might be useful...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Y2J

    Posts : 10
    Points : 20
    Join date : 2013-06-26

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Y2J on Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:42 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    chenzhao wrote:Rafale is best choice for Indian Air Force to replace obsolescent MIG-21s .Rafale has AESA radar, low radar RCS features ,  it is far better than Pakistan's JF-17 and F-16 fighter. It is not cheap, but I believe India's rapid growing economy could afford it.

    Perhaps but the thing is that India could for the same amount of money (30 bin $) buy 250 MIG-35 and 40 Antey-2500 and Im sure Russia would add few Amour 1650 for free  Very Happy 

    Their choice.
    but u can not compare mig-35 with rafale.
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 37
    Location : Croatia

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Viktor on Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:57 pm

    Y2J wrote:
    Viktor wrote:
    chenzhao wrote:Rafale is best choice for Indian Air Force to replace obsolescent MIG-21s .Rafale has AESA radar, low radar RCS features ,  it is far better than Pakistan's JF-17 and F-16 fighter. It is not cheap, but I believe India's rapid growing economy could afford it.

    Perhaps but the thing is that India could for the same amount of money (30 bin $) buy 250 MIG-35 and 40 Antey-2500 and Im sure Russia would add few Amour 1650 for free  Very Happy 

    Their choice.
    but u can not compare mig-35 with rafale.

    Of course you can, why wouldn`t you?

    And than there is a numer game ....

    40 Antey-2500 and 250 MIG-35 VS 120 Rafale  Laughing Laughing Laughing 

    Decision is obvious and MIG-35 is a perhaps even better plane than Rafale or perhaps Rafale is something better but thats just shades
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:30 am

    TR1 wrote:MiG-29SMT is not in the same field as Rafale.

    MiG-35 wasn't ready, wasn't technically as impressive, and they wanted a Western supplier. I think the latter part is stupid, but it is their Air Force.

    Today's MIG-35 is STILL not ready in any case.

    The only issue with Rafale is the price, and the fact that the MMRCA outgrew itself wildly.
    respekt

    Another blatant yet true answer.


    But yes, the only sticking point now is the price of Rafale. I think we now must wait for the next government. If BJP(pro-Russia) comes to power, who knows India may buy 50 Mig-35s and 50 Su-35S(instead of uber-expensive Rafales). However, if Congress(pro-US) continues to remain in power, then the Rafale deal will go throgh AT ANY COST.


    Now the question, what could that cost be?

    Well, there are some talks(and pressure from pro-US groups back home) of India pulling out of FGFA JV with Russia, because they don't have enought money for both MRCA and FGFA programmes to fructify. I think US has offfered India the sale of F-35s as part of the longer picture. Hope that's not the case.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16717
    Points : 17325
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:23 am

    Rafale is best choice for Indian Air Force to replace obsolescent MIG-21s .Rafale has AESA radar, low radar RCS features , it is far better than Pakistan's JF-17 and F-16 fighter. It is not cheap, but I believe India's rapid growing economy could afford it.

    Rafale would be a silly choice to replace Mig-21s... in anyones air Force.

    MiG-29SMT is not in the same field as Rafale.

    No it is not, but if the job is to fly in under cover of heavy CAP from Su-30MKI and FFGA and drop a laser guided bomb on a target then Mig-29SMT will do it much cheaper than any Eurocanard could.

    Today's MIG-35 is STILL not ready in any case.

    Rafale isn't in service with India either so that point is moot.

    The only issue with Rafale is the price, and the fact that the MMRCA outgrew itself wildly.

    When your cheap stopgap medium fighter starts to cost rather more than your standard heavy fighter ( Su-30MKI ) or even your new stealth fighter (FFGA) then it becomes a real issue.

    In terms of value for money the Rafale is becoming rather like an F-35...

    but u can not compare mig-35 with rafale.

    Of course you can... what do you think the MMRCA program was all about?

    But yes, the only sticking point now is the price of Rafale. I think we now must wait for the next government. If BJP(pro-Russia) comes to power, who knows India may buy 50 Mig-35s and 50 Su-35S(instead of uber-expensive Rafales). However, if Congress(pro-US) continues to remain in power, then the Rafale deal will go throgh AT ANY COST.

    Putting nationalism aside does India really need a stopgap fighter that might start entering service a few years before its FFGA and be totally different enough to warrant specialist training for ground and air crews to service and fly the thing.

    I mean I understood a while back where there were ground attack aircraft like Jaguar and Mig-27 and also medium fighters... Mig-29s and M2000s and light cheap numbers fighters... Mig-21.... and heavy fighters... Su-30MKI.

    Well now there is Tejas for light fighters... replace Mig-21s and light attack aircraft... they have upgraded the Mig-29s, they are buying Rafales and FFGAs and there is a future medium 5th gen fighter they are working on.

    Personally I would think dropping the Rafale and putting that money into expanding the capabilities of Tejas and increasing production to allow it to perform a range of roles and expand into the light and lower medium role... an extra 200 odd Mig-29M2s to fill the proper medium weight class and then the heavy Su-30 and FFGA aircraft to fill out the force.

    The Rafale is an excellent aircraft with lots of interesting capabilities, but at the end of the day it duplicates a lot of existing capabilities and adds unnecessary complication.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:07 pm


    NEW DELHI: With the UPA-II's tenure coming to an end, France had wanted India to sign a pact to provide government guarantee for completion of negotiation for 126 fighter aircraft with Dassault company but defence minister A K Antony has refused to do so.

    France, whose company Dassault has been shortlisted for supplying the multi-role medium combat Rafale aircraft, had proposed the signing of the agreement apparently to ensure that negotiations for the multi-billion dollar deal do not get affected if a different party comes to power after the Lok Sabha elections.

    "The French side wanted government guarantee to the negotiations," sources said.

    Antony, however, refused to sign such an agreement, arguing that governmental guarantee cannot be provided as negotiations were still underway, they said.

    The defence ministry is still negotiating the price and terms and conditions of the contract with the French firm Dassault Aviation, whose Rafale combat aircraft was selected as the lowest bidder two years ago for supplying 126 warplanes.

    Antony had recently ordered that the process to arrive at the lowest bidder in the multi-vendor tender be reviewed after completion of the whole procedure involved in the procurement as questions had been raised over it.

    The two sides are trying to tackle the issue of life cycle costs (LCC) relating to Rafale.

    "There are complaints about the procedure of calculating the life cycle cost and that issue is not yet settled. Before bringing the deal to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, we would like to get clear on that aspect," he had said.

    As per the Indian defence procedure, the firms offering lowest prices and meeting the requirements of the respective services are given the contract and in this deal to procure 126 combat aircraft, LCC has been taken into view to determine the lowest bidder.

    Senior BJP leader and former finance minister Yashwant Sinha has written to Antony raising a number of questions over the "conceptual shift" in the defence procurement policy and expressed fears that LCC concept may bring in corruption.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rafale-deal-Antony-refuses-govt-guarantee-to-France/articleshow/32965491.cms
    avatar
    AlfaT8

    Posts : 1417
    Points : 1418
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:25 pm

    Indian Flanker wrote:

    NEW DELHI: With the UPA-II's tenure coming to an end, France had wanted India to sign a pact to provide government guarantee for completion of negotiation for 126 fighter aircraft with Dassault company but defence minister A K Antony has refused to do so.

    France, whose company Dassault has been shortlisted for supplying the multi-role medium combat Rafale aircraft, had proposed the signing of the agreement apparently to ensure that negotiations for the multi-billion dollar deal do not get affected if a different party comes to power after the Lok Sabha elections.

    "The French side wanted government guarantee to the negotiations," sources said.

    Antony, however, refused to sign such an agreement, arguing that governmental guarantee cannot be provided as negotiations were still underway, they said.

    The defence ministry is still negotiating the price and terms and conditions of the contract with the French firm Dassault Aviation, whose Rafale combat aircraft was selected as the lowest bidder two years ago for supplying 126 warplanes.

    Antony had recently ordered that the process to arrive at the lowest bidder in the multi-vendor tender be reviewed after completion of the whole procedure involved in the procurement as questions had been raised over it.

    The two sides are trying to tackle the issue of life cycle costs (LCC) relating to Rafale.

    "There are complaints about the procedure of calculating the life cycle cost and that issue is not yet settled. Before bringing the deal to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, we would like to get clear on that aspect," he had said.

    As per the Indian defence procedure, the firms offering lowest prices and meeting the requirements of the respective services are given the contract and in this deal to procure 126 combat aircraft, LCC has been taken into view to determine the lowest bidder.

    Senior BJP leader and former finance minister Yashwant Sinha has written to Antony raising a number of questions over the "conceptual shift" in the defence procurement policy and expressed fears that LCC concept may bring in corruption.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Rafale-deal-Antony-refuses-govt-guarantee-to-France/articleshow/32965491.cms

    So basically there saying, "if you want guarantees, than you might want to lower your price a tad" this is hilarious.  Razz 
    avatar
    flamming_python

    Posts : 3258
    Points : 3364
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:22 pm

    India drives a hard bargain.
    Loves making those Frenchies sweat.

    But then again, France shouldn't have their price set so high on their fighters in the first place. That's just asking for trouble.
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:43 pm


    France and India are fully on track to seal the deal for the around $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project, under which IAF will acquire 126 Rafale fighter jets, French ambassador Francios Richier said.

    "Negotiations have recently achieved significant progress. We are looking to sign the intergovernmental agreement together with the commercial contract for the planes," said Richier, speaking exclusively to TOI.

    Reacting to recent reports that France had asked the Indian government to sign a government guarantee to safeguard the negotiations for the fighters, Richier denied that any such agreement was asked for. "We have worked very closely with all Indian governments, so we have no reason to ask for such an agreement," he said.

    The final MMRCA contract is expected to be inked by the next government that comes to office in May-June after the general elections. Even the ongoing French Scorpene project, under which six submarines are being built at Mazagon Docks, was eventually signed by the UPA-1 government in October 2005 despite the bulk of its negotiations taking place under the previous NDA regime.

    "We are confident about the progress in the negotiation process (for the MMRCA project)," said Richier. Though the pace of the final negotiations has been glacial since the Rafale was finally selected over its rivals in January 2012, the IAF is also now quite hopeful that the contract with French aviation major Dassault will be inked in the 2014-2015 fiscal.

    Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) finalized the MMRCA work-share agreement in February, under which the Indian defence PSU will have a 70% role, after months of bitter wrangling. Under the MMRCA project, while the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition", HAL is to manufacture the rest 108 fighters under licence over six years.

    "Now that issues like work-share, warranty and liquidity damages have been resolved, the responsibility matrix of all Indian production agencies is being finalized. Once that is done, the draft contract will be readied for the final government clearance," said a source.

    Eurofighter Typhoon as well as the US fighters that lost out in the long-drawn selection process are eagerly waiting in the wings in the hope of staging a comeback in the dogfight over the world's biggest such tender.

    But there seems little possibility of that happening now, with India having invested almost a decade in finally selecting the Rafale after extensive technical and commercial evaluation. Down to just 34 fighter squadrons at present when it requires at least 44, IAF is banking upon the MMRCA project to retain its combat edge against adversaries.


    Defence News - Deal for 126 Rafale fighters close to being signed
    http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=bZvEYGvnx/M=
    avatar
    Hannibal Barca

    Posts : 1241
    Points : 1263
    Join date : 2013-12-13

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:20 pm

    I just can't see how Dassault can produce 120 planes. It will take forever for this delivery to be made and with certain overcosts.
    As for the plane itself I expressed my opinion long time ago. It would have been an excellent plane during the 90s, now it's already old stuff and is not expected to be replaced by the French industry in this.... century. It just took too long this R&D process. There is simply no point to order this plane now, when you receive it 10 years from now there will be a dozen 5th generation planes. Also the price is ludicrous, it should have half the cost to be competitive. The sole reason Rafale is semi-decent competitor is because US aviation simply dying, European is virtually non existent, emerged countries are yet not ready for domestic production and Russian aviation industry is still healing it's wounds.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16717
    Points : 17325
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:44 am

    India drives a hard bargain.
    Loves making those Frenchies sweat.

    To be fair the Indians are probably trying to work out how their 10 billion dollar competition to find a new medium fighter for their air force resulted in an aircraft that was supposed to be the lowest bidder yet is now costing twice as much as it was supposed to...

    It seems the French are expert at smoke and mirrors... buy our plane because it is the cheapest and then double the price and wonder why they wont sign to guarantee the purchase...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:18 am

    Even I'm pained by this obsession of Rafale that IAF seems to have. They could have bought 300+ Mig-35s with AESA radar, 3D TVC, and all other fancy stuff for much less the price they are paying.


    Having said that, one side of me is also happy that India is going to get this wonderful li'l French stormy bird known as Rafale. We all knew after the Kargil war that our next MCA is going to be French(and many guessed it was going to be Rafale- and how right they're!). So except this eye-watering price, I am happy with this deal. Rafale will give India a great strategic advantage over Pakistan in near future(we may need to bomb their terror based camps in PAK occupied Kashmir- so Rafale with SPECTRA would be a perfect fit in that scenario, if we decide not to use cruise missiles).


    Last edited by Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16717
    Points : 17325
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:57 am

    The M2K is a good aircraft but I really don't see the logic that says the Rafale is better than the Mig-35.

    At the time the M2K was better at strike than the Mig-29, but the model Mig-29 was not designed as a multirole aircraft.

    I just can't see how Dassault can produce 120 planes.

    Have they changed that part of the contract too?

    I thought the contract was for 16 foreign built aircraft and the remaining aircraft to be locally built.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5680
    Points : 5708
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:11 am

    Rafale is France's primary fighter, that's why. It is well developed and funded.

    Russia is buying MiG-35 to support MiG. The plane's development is years behind schedule (as evidence by the latest SMT buy), and does not enjoy nearly the same priority or financial blessing as the Rafale.

    They are certainly peers, but I would not find it hard to believe the Rafale overall maybe a more capable bird.

    The Rafale is a newer design, even considering the MiG-35s new gen airframe compared to legacy MiG-29s...they still did not start from a clean slate like the French.
    Doesn't mean the 35 is uncompetitive, but nonetheless....

    If MiG had the 1/3rd of the T-50s priority, they would have flown that MiG-35 model we saw (bigger wings, tail, more pylons) several years ago and would be producing the bird by now.
    The reality is the plane is still not finished.

    And I would be ashamed to compare Dassault's production facilities with the state that MIG has been driven to.
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:39 am

    GarryB wrote:The M2K is a good aircraft but I really don't see the logic that says the Rafale is better than the Mig-35.
    As far as IAF's decision goes, well it ain't about being better(otherwise they might had selected Typhoon), it's more about having/owning a mature product that is in service for quite some time(so that all maintanance problems are well sorted).

    Plus, they didn't want a Russian bird(no matter how capable) as their MCA, as:

    i) They are more impressed with performance/combat readiness/ maintenance of M2K over Mig-29.

    ii) "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" argument(which is as lame as it sounds, lol).

    At the time the M2K was better at strike than the Mig-29, but the model Mig-29 was not designed as a multirole aircraft.
    According to some reports IAF is more satisfied with M2K's maintenance friendly and high combat readiness over Mig-29. That also played a part in the final decision.


    Have they changed that part of the contract too?

    I thought the contract was for 16 foreign built aircraft and the remaining aircraft to be locally built.
    18 to come in fly-away condition from France and rest to be manufactured locally.
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:41 am

    TR1 wrote:Rafale is France's primary fighter, that's why. It is well developed and funded.

    Russia is buying MiG-35 to support MiG. The plane's development is years behind schedule (as evidence by the latest SMT buy), and does not enjoy nearly the same priority or financial blessing as the Rafale.

    They are certainly peers, but I would not find it hard to believe the Rafale overall maybe a more capable bird.

    The Rafale is a newer design, even considering the MiG-35s new gen airframe compared to legacy MiG-29s...they still did not start from a clean slate like the French.
    Doesn't mean the 35 is uncompetitive, but nonetheless....

    If MiG had the 1/3rd of the T-50s priority, they would have flown that MiG-35 model we saw (bigger wings, tail, more pylons) several years ago and would be producing the bird by now.
    The reality is the plane is still not finished.

    And I would be ashamed to compare Dassault's production facilities with the state that MIG has been driven to.
    This guy gets it. respekt
    avatar
    Indian Flanker

    Posts : 162
    Points : 173
    Join date : 2014-02-28
    Location : India- Land of the Tiger

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:54 am

    @TR1

    Do you think the losses the Migs suffered during the Gulf War by F-15s worked as a bad PR for the entire company and its future? Or it is just that the flankers, especially TVC equipped super-agile flankers made the Mig fighters pretty much redundant?

    Sponsored content

    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:51 pm