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    Indian Air Force (IAF): News

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    Corrosion
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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Corrosion on Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:38 am

    AMCA is a paper aircraft for now and doesn't deserve all the attention it gets. Even FGFA doesnt deserve it either(wait for 3-4 more years). Current and near future Indian projects are Tejas, MMRCA, and upgrade programes.

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  f-insas on Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:31 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Globalization and outsourcing Very Happy

    And both are good if not great. bounce


    Without these the US and China would not have existed as we know them today.

    It's a known fact that US military hardware exported to foreign countries contains Trojans . The point here is the US sponsored Indian media goes at length pointing figures at military hardwares imported from Russia ( Israel &  France ) by India that malfunction but they choose to turn the other way when it comes to hardware / software imported from US.
    ..........looks like u take master degree in media..Laughing 

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:51 am

    f-insas wrote:.looks like u take master degree in media..Laughing 
    Actually needs more of a common sense than a master's .

    ricky123
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    50 Billion For less than 300 Fighters ??

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:49 am

    India will be spending more than 50 Billion $ Dollars in next decade to purchase less than 300 fighter aircrafts for Indian air force, even though it will be retiring more aircrafts then that. IAF plans to Purchase 126 French made Rafale and 144 Indo-Russian FGFA which might be cleared by Government of India but are yet to take off, Negotiation for purchase of French made Dassault has been going on for last 2 years now and according to media reports India will have to pay more now due to increase in cost and Estimated cost of FGFA is all set to rise due to delays in finalizing a deal with Russians.

    According to Defence analyst India might end up paying more than 10 Billion extra over deal cost, this is seriously a worrying signs for Indian air force which still has to replace bulk of vintage Migs from its fleet. IAF will be retiring close to 250 Mig-21 variant in 2017-19 period and post 2015 half the fleet of Mig-27 will also be retired too which will be around 60, Mig-27 due to poor workmanship and design defects in engine has suffered many crashes lately and IAF plans to retire them along with Mig-21 in the same period.

    Another strike aircraft for Indian air force which is British made Jaguars might serve post 2025 but number will be limited. IAF has plans to upgrade Jaguars with newer Honeywell made engines but deal for that is still pending and it is likely that less than half the fleet of Jaguars will be upgraded with new engines and DARIN-III standard which will come with modern navigation, EW and weapon delivery system, which will keep small fleet of Jaguars going post 2030.

    From 2015 to 2020 IAF will be retiring more than 350 fighter aircrafts from its fleet, keeping a side close to 100 aircrafts which already have been retired in last few years this will lead to lowest squadron strength of IAF at this period and probably will take IAF next two decades to bring back the squadron strength to sanctioned strength.

    TOT (Transfer of Technology) and local Production is leading to higher Procurement cost of this fighter aircrafts. Failure to go ahead with either of the two deals will lead to more problems for IAF which is seeing growth of firepower in Chinese air force which with local produced aircrafts and Russian copies of Sukhoi’s will have largest fleet of 4.5 generation fighter jets in Asia by 2020. Possible solution could be to order additional Tejas MK-1 aircrafts from current 40 to 80 or order additional Sukhoi-30 MKI directly from Russia

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:43 am

    Well if the problem is the withdrawl of the Mig-21 and Mig-27 then the obvious relatively cheap simple replacement for both would be Mig-29M with modest components along the line of the Mig-29SMT.


    The aircraft would be able to perform all the light duties of the Mig-21 and also all the light strike duties of the Mig-27 at reduced costs (the SMT upgrade focuses on reduced life cycle costs and reducing maintainence costs by over 40%).

    I really don't think the new light 5th gen Russian fighter will be ready soon enough or be cheap enough to be an option.

    Certainly the Tejas is supposed to be the actual solution, but is it good enough?


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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:30 am

    Tejas II sounds like a decent plane but nothing great. I don't think it will raise to the level of Gripen. Still if they fulfill their targets it will be a truly amazing first attempt.

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:22 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Tejas II sounds like a decent plane but nothing great. I don't think it will raise to the level of Gripen. Still if they fulfill their targets it will be a truly amazing first attempt.

    Tejas-M2 will be on par With grippen . and once we start work on FGFA we will get some tech from russia which will help us in Tejas ..

    The problem here is the slow decision making .which not only increases the Cost but also is bad for national security ... I wish they had just ordered 100 Odd mig-35  censored To fill the Gap

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:24 am

    GarryB wrote:Well if the problem is the withdrawl of the Mig-21 and Mig-27 then the obvious relatively cheap simple replacement for both would be Mig-29M with modest components along the line of the Mig-29SMT.


    The aircraft would be able to perform all the light duties of the Mig-21 and also all the light strike duties of the Mig-27 at reduced costs (the SMT upgrade focuses on reduced life cycle costs and reducing maintainence costs by over 40%).

    I really don't think the new light 5th gen Russian fighter will be ready soon enough or be cheap enough to be an option.

    Certainly the Tejas is supposed to be the actual solution, but is it good enough?

    i dont think Mig29 will be a replacement for any other migs IAF has or mirage ...for that we were supposed to have Tejas ..but that got delayed so now we going for Rafale ..now that is delayed . angry  Although France has mentioned if need be they can churn out more then 24 fighters in one year  thumbsup 

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:59 am

    GarryB wrote:I really don't think the new light 5th gen Russian fighter will be ready soon enough or be cheap enough to be an option.

    The first prototype is supposed to arrive later this year . Before the IAF gives it's feedback it's difficult to say what addition/deletion will be required . In any case the IAF believes it will not be able to make the FGFA operational before 2022 .

    GarryB wrote:Certainly the Tejas is supposed to be the actual solution, but is it good enough?

    Actually the Tejas (LCA) MKI is going to fulfill the quantity criteria . It's not a technological marvel . The former IAF chief had said that it's at best a MIG 21 ++ . With the fleet of Mig 21 fast depleting the IAF has no choice but to replace them with the LCA MK1 . LCA MK2 will be at par with the Gripen and Rafale .

    In the interim I suspect large scale induction of the Super Sukhoi will be the real gamechanger .

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:45 am

    Actually the Tejas (LCA) MKI is going to fulfill the quantity criteria . It's not a technological marvel .

    But that is the key.. the Tejas doesn't need to be a marvel... just a cheap simple but effective fighter that can do most basic jobs very well and some complicated jobs when needed.

    The Mig-21 was not a Gripen either...


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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Viktor on Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:16 am

    Problem is not PAK-FA because its a 5th generation technology with transfer of technology and all.

    Problem is obsolete 4th generation fighter whose program rose from 10 bin $ up to 30 bin $ (3 fricking times) while the price of aircraft rose 2 times

    100% price escalation on Rafale fighter aircraft to Rs 1.75 lakh crore likely to dent IAF's strike capability

    Because of that India has really unique situation where obsolete 4th generation fighter costs much more money than cutting edge 5th generation fighter  Very Happy


    Last edited by Viktor on Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:46 am

    Indians did a really dumb decision by selecting Rafale for purely political reasons.
    Everybody knew that Dessault has not the productive capacity nor the cost efficiency nor the technology transfer capabilities to keep the contract obligations.
    I mean the whole competition was a big joke.
    Rafale was a project full 0of problems from the very beginning. Only the French ego keep it afloat. Delayed, with overcosts, with deficient weaponry and with a rate of productivity
    inadequate even for  maintenance support let alone for mass production.
    Only the corrupted Indian authorities had the stupid initiative to help French weapon industry who was dying to take a few more years of miserable life.
    Shame of them, I would only sign this contract if they would give me the permanent membership in UN assembly that India should take from France anyway.

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  ricky123 on Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:21 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Indians did a really dumb decision by selecting Rafale for purely political reasons.
    Everybody knew that Dessault has not the productive capacity nor the cost efficiency nor the technology transfer capabilities to keep the contract obligations.
    I mean the whole competition was a big joke.
    Rafale was a project full 0of problems from the very beginning. Only the French ego keep it afloat. Delayed, with overcosts, with deficient weaponry and with a rate of productivity
    inadequate even for  maintenance support let alone for mass production.
    Only the corrupted Indian authorities had the stupid initiative to help French weapon industry who was dying to take a few more years of miserable life.
    Shame of them, I would only sign this contract if they would give me the permanent membership in UN assembly that India should take from France anyway.

    i think we have already debated about this here ... and Rafale is the best choice for india ... i do not however beleave that there is a 100% cost escalation.
    recently there have been many false reporting but the decision is final and it will be signed soon ...

    FGFA and rafale both have diff roles to play .... FGFA will most likely be the first one in the sky ...and rafale is more for multirole purpose

    and FGFA will cost india $6 Billion for R & D ,,after that india still has to pay for the fighters it will build which might go upto $35 Bill Cost... correct me if i am wrong ..

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:51 am

    ricky123 wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Indians did a really dumb decision by selecting Rafale for purely political reasons.
    Everybody knew that Dessault has not the productive capacity nor the cost efficiency nor the technology transfer capabilities to keep the contract obligations.
    I mean the whole competition was a big joke.
    Rafale was a project full 0of problems from the very beginning. Only the French ego keep it afloat. Delayed, with overcosts, with deficient weaponry and with a rate of productivity
    inadequate even for  maintenance support let alone for mass production.
    Only the corrupted Indian authorities had the stupid initiative to help French weapon industry who was dying to take a few more years of miserable life.
    Shame of them, I would only sign this contract if they would give me the permanent membership in UN assembly that India should take from France anyway.

    i think we have already debated about this here ... and Rafale is the best choice for india ... i do not however beleave that there is a 100% cost escalation.
    recently there have been many false reporting but the decision is final and it will be signed soon ...

    FGFA and rafale both have diff roles to play .... FGFA will most likely be the first one in the sky ...and rafale is more for multirole purpose

    and FGFA will cost india $6 Billion for R & D ,,after that india still has to pay for the fighters it will build which might go upto $35 Bill Cost... correct me if i am wrong ..

    Rafale the best choice for India? I doubt it, with all the complications that came about, would those same complications have came if it was the Mig-29SMT? BTW, why give money to NATO (and de facto British) affiliated Dassault, NATO is a colonialist revanchist mechanism and Britain was the colonial power that enslaved the Indian population. Let's not forget that the British and French Military Industrial Complex has been intricately intertwined officially since the Entente Cordiale, in fact the British and French military's are so conjoined at the hip that they even share a aircraft carrier between each other:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1394185/Britain-France-share-aircraft-carrier-combat-defence-cuts-says-admiral.html

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  TR1 on Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:49 am

    MiG-29SMT is not in the same field as Rafale.

    MiG-35 wasn't ready, wasn't technically as impressive, and they wanted a Western supplier. I think the latter part is stupid, but it is their Air Force.

    Today's MIG-35 is STILL not ready in any case.

    The only issue with Rafale is the price, and the fact that the MMRCA outgrew itself wildly.

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  chenzhao on Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:31 am

    Rafale is best choice for Indian Air Force to replace obsolescent MIG-21s .Rafale has AESA radar, low radar RCS features , it is far better than Pakistan's JF-17 and F-16 fighter. It is not cheap, but I believe India's rapid growing economy could afford it.

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:04 am

    chenzhao wrote:Rafale is best choice for Indian Air Force to replace obsolescent MIG-21s .Rafale has AESA radar, low radar RCS features ,  it is far better than Pakistan's JF-17 and F-16 fighter. It is not cheap, but I believe India's rapid growing economy could afford it.

    Perhaps but the thing is that India could for the same amount of money (30 bin $) buy 250 MIG-35 and 40 Antey-2500 and Im sure Russia would add few Amour 1650 for free  Very Happy 

    Their choice.

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:36 am

    Ah, I want HAL to collaborate with Mig and develop our version of F-35( good stuff only lol! lol1 ) aka a 5th gen MCA that would support Su-50 in future.

    Mig could certainly make such a plane on their own, but I really do think making a plane together will result in a better product for both countries.


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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:45 am

    GarryB wrote:Mig could certainly make such a plane on their own, but I really do think making a plane together will result in a better product for both countries.
    I think because of the world-wide success of the flankers, people have forgotten how good planes the Mig. make(specially back home here in India). I was extremely p***** off when IAF decided that they won't buy Mig-35 for the MRCA deal. It is not that Rafale is a bad plane, but gosh it's very expensive. At the same price we could have bought 200+ Mig-35s.

    I think India rejecting Mig-35 has delayed the development of 5th gen Mig fighter. But am sure it will come up at some time. Mig always had a equivalent smaller fighter to accompany the heavy-weight Sukhoi: Mig-29/Su-27, now Su-35 and Mig-35.

    There is no way they will remain silent for long. So agree with you that sooner or later Mig would make this plane on their own.


    As far as India's partnership is concerned, I think Mig will defintely appreciate it because of the high cost involved for development of such an advance fighter aircraft. But the problem is Indian government?!

    The Rafale deal has become the problem child for IAF/IG, and they don't know how to properly/pragmatically spend their resources.


    So, lets see! If India and Mig come together on an agreement, it would be awesome news for Russian/India military aviation fans. However, some people in India just don't understand why most nations are jointly developing a 5th gen fighter rather than going solely. So, right now our AMCA programme looks highly ambitious.

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:33 am

    I think because of the world-wide success of the flankers, people have forgotten how good planes the Mig. make(specially back home here in India). I was extremely p***** off when IAF decided that they won't buy Mig-35 for the MRCA deal. It is not that Rafale is a bad plane, but gosh it's very expensive. At the same price we could have bought 200+ Mig-35s.

    The high cost of the Rafale I did secretly hope for a split deal where they buy 60 odd Rafales and 80 Mig-35s... which probably would have resulted in a deal of maybe 12 billion instead of the 18 plus it has become...

    I think India rejecting Mig-35 has delayed the development of 5th gen Mig fighter. But am sure it will come up at some time. Mig always had a equivalent smaller fighter to accompany the heavy-weight Sukhoi: Mig-29/Su-27, now Su-35 and Mig-35.

    I think Mig already had plans drawn up for a light stealth fighter, but I agree that working on the Mig-35 now for Indian use would have resulted in faster development of both the Mig-35 and the new LFS.

    The Russian Brass already stated that any work on a light 5th gen fighter would be delayed till the PAK FA is assured to enter production so that it would not get delayed. That suggests to me that by 2018 we might see prototypes of the LFS...

    So, lets see! If India and Mig come together on an agreement, it would be awesome news for Russian/India military aviation fans. However, some people in India just don't understand why most nations are jointly developing a 5th gen fighter rather than going solely.

    Ever the optimist... imagine a French/Russian/Indian light 5th gen fighter... Something for India and Russia to sell to its allies and for France to offer as an alternative to F-35...  Twisted Evil 

    Obviously it would never happen... but amusing anyway.

    The French and Germans have mentioned developing a new heavy helo with Mil.

    The future of cooperation will be interesting.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:51 am

    Is France going to order F-35 in future? I don't think they have any such plans. I think they also want to make a 5th gen MCA, but the rather never happening/delayed sales of Rafale has pushed their plans back. I'm sure once they get $20 billion sum from the Indian govern. they will kick-start their project.

    The problem with France joining India/Russia is the French pride IMO. Look how they pulled out of Eurofighter project and went ahead with their own Rafale project.


    The reason India and Russia are involved in such a costly, ambitious and complicated programme, is because of the mutual trust these two countries have buit over the years.


    Don't know how much the French can trust the Russian bear, since they also may suffer from the same Western superiority complex like their Anglo-Saxon brothers lol1

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:21 am

    The problem with France joining India/Russia is the French pride IMO. Look how they pulled out of Eurofighter project and went ahead with their own Rafale project.


    The reason India and Russia are involved in such a costly, ambitious and complicated programme, is because of the mutual trust these two countries have buit over the years.

    All very true... the French have developed some excellent joint systems, but also plenty of joint programmes have failed miserably leading to the Rafale, the Leclerc, etc etc.

    Milan and HOT, Exocet, and Mirage are french success stories... perhaps a joint program is just too optimistic.

    I think the French would love to sell a joint French/Russian/Indian 5th gen stealth light fighter to the F-35 partners and undercut the US though...

    Don't know how much the French can trust the Russian bear, since they also may suffer from the same Western superiority complex like their Anglo-Saxon brothers

    The French have adopted Russian 155mm laser guided artillery shells... I wonder what sort of weapon the new AK12SN will be like... a multicalibre family might be of interest now that the FAMAS is getting a little long in the tooth.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  Indian Flanker on Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:54 am

    In terms of aerodynamics Su-35S is much alike the original Su-27S flanker. Why did they forlorn the integral longitudinal triplane concept of original Su-35/37(S-27M)? Has it to do something with their effort to reduce the RCS/weight of the super flanker, or did they find some better aerodynamic solution?

    I think aerodynamically Su-30MKI should have better pitch/yaw rates than Su-35S since its design is more unstable(triplane/canard concept of Su-37 TD).


    Could the comparatively light-weight of Su-35S( aprox. 15ton empty) vis-a-vis Su-30MKI/Su-27M(18.5 ton empty) coupled with better thrust (142kn vs 126kn) have resulted in their omission of the foreplane concept?


    The real question is why do you want to go back aerodynamically(from Su-27M to Su-27S), when you have already achieved highly unstable/manoeuvrable design in the form of Su-37 technology demonstrator?


    Last edited by Indian Flanker on Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:20 am

    AFAIK the canards improved flight performance, but advances in flight control systems and of course TVC engines have negated that flight performance advantage to the point where the extra weight and cost and complication of canards was not justified on the Su-35.

    On the Su-34 they are part of an active flight system that allows the aircraft to fly fast at low level and counter turbulence actively, while on the Su-33 they generate lift at the nose at take off which adds to the lift of the aircraft whereas the horizontal tail surfaces help in the take off by pushing the tail down which results in a nose pitch up. In other words canards were a positive way to reduce approach speed and the speed at which the aircraft could safely take off.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:22 am

    Thrust vectoring nozzles should cover the lack of canards me thinkso

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