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    Indian Air Force (IAF): News

    medo
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    Post  medo on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:40 pm

    http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2008/11/su-30mkis-at-ex-red-flag-08-clearing.html

    3) As far as data links go, neither the Su-30MKI nor the Su-30MKM has the kind of Russia-origin airborne data links that are on board the Su-30MKK or Su-30MK2 or Su-27SMK. This is because the Su-30MKI and Su-30MKM are not required to share tactical air situation data with one another, but to exchange such data with AEW & C platforms. On the Su-30MKI the data links are of Israeli origin (from TADIRAN SpectraLink) and they will be operationalised only AFTER they are commissioned into service, which will happen only after the PHALCON AEW & C platforms are commissioned into service. This has nothing to do with OPSEC.

    I remember, how western medias sfter red flag criticise, how bad russian data link in Su-30MKI is comparing to Link16, etc. Point is, that Su-30MKI doesn't have russian data link and that the one they have is not designed for group working. It doesn't have IFDL to share picture with one another. It seems they also don't have link with AWACS (OK, I could be wrong) and this is why they made ground centric AFNET, that all data sharing went through ground command posts.

    According to Timesnownews article, this whole AFNET doesn't work as it should, when controlers and pilots didn't know who is where, although AFNET is connected with early warning radars and IADS. I hope some Indian members here could explain more about this IAF C4I mess. I think those Israeli SDRs will not solve the problem, which is in higher levels and will be just throwing money away.

    This is actually quite hard to understand, considering that even old primitive Soviet GCI knows exactly where fighter is and guide it automaqticaly to the target.

    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:47 pm

    medo wrote:

    I remember, how western medias sfter red flag criticise, how bad russian data link in Su-30MKI is comparing to Link16, etc. Point is, that Su-30MKI doesn't have russian data link and that the one they have is not designed for group working. It doesn't have IFDL to share picture with one another. It seems they also don't have link with AWACS (OK, I could be wrong) and this is why they made ground centric AFNET, that all data sharing went through ground command posts.

    According to Timesnownews article, this whole AFNET doesn't work as it should, when controlers and pilots didn't know who is where, although AFNET is connected with early warning radars and IADS. I hope some Indian members here could explain more about this IAF C4I mess. I think those Israeli SDRs will not solve the problem, which is in higher levels and will be just throwing money away.

    This is actually quite hard to understand, considering that even old primitive Soviet GCI knows exactly where fighter is and guide it automaqticaly to the target.

    The IAF is an army of one, each pilot for himself.  The only direction they receive is from unsecured communications with the AWACs controller.  No data links, no encrypted radios... nothing.  Totally blind outside of what their own aircraft is telling them.  India needs a universal data link like 20 years ago.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:57 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    medo wrote:

    I remember, how western medias sfter red flag criticise, how bad russian data link in Su-30MKI is comparing to Link16, etc. Point is, that Su-30MKI doesn't have russian data link and that the one they have is not designed for group working. It doesn't have IFDL to share picture with one another. It seems they also don't have link with AWACS (OK, I could be wrong) and this is why they made ground centric AFNET, that all data sharing went through ground command posts.

    According to Timesnownews article, this whole AFNET doesn't work as it should, when controlers and pilots didn't know who is where, although AFNET is connected with early warning radars and IADS. I hope some Indian members here could explain more about this IAF C4I mess. I think those Israeli SDRs will not solve the problem, which is in higher levels and will be just throwing money away.

    This is actually quite hard to understand, considering that even old primitive Soviet GCI knows exactly where fighter is and guide it automaqticaly to the target.

    The IAF is an army of one, each pilot for himself.  The only direction they receive is from unsecured communications with the AWACs controller.  No data links, no encrypted radios... nothing.  Totally blind outside of what their own aircraft is telling them.  India needs a universal data link like 20 years ago.

    The problem is the Indians borrowed ideas from the Saudi playbook....their arms sales are bribes for influence and not for tactical and strategic military competency.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:14 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    The problem is the Indians borrowed ideas from the Saudi playbook....their arms sales are bribes for influence and not for tactical and strategic military competency.

    The Indian military still suffers from colonial hang-ups and needs a complete transformation in military affairs.  They buy capable equipment but don't buy the force multipliers needed to make it effective in the 21st century.  The comms gear, the crypto, the cyber... all of these drastically increase costs and the Indians don't buy it.  They are still stuck in a semi-colonial/Soviet era doctrine that doesn't work on the modern battlefield.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:59 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    The problem is the Indians borrowed ideas from the Saudi playbook....their arms sales are bribes for influence and not for tactical and strategic military competency.

    The Indian military still suffers from colonial hang-ups and needs a complete transformation in military affairs.  They buy capable equipment but don't buy the force multipliers needed to make it effective in the 21st century.  The comms gear, the crypto, the cyber... all of these drastically increase costs and the Indians don't buy it.  They are still stuck in a semi-colonial/Soviet era doctrine that doesn't work on the modern battlefield.

    If they were still under Soviet doctrine, they would had full-fledged IAD by now. Their hodge podge arms procurement isn't anything other than GCC weapon procurement method, but with a Bollywood flare (including the theatrics). I can't understand how you come to think it's anything else other than buying influence. Every other year there seems to be a massive arms-bribery scandal in India which equates to buying influence and vice-versa.
    medo
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    Post  medo on Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:45 am

    Isos wrote:If they were at 15km altitude and paf fighter lower at 5km, with an acceleration to mach 1+, R-77 would have had more range than the amraam. That's how they should use MKIs. Very high and very fast.

    Mirages still have their radars to look for targets and they were well aware of jaming if they were the ones being jamed. They shoukd have been trained for such situation.

    R-77 missile have 80 km range, while AIM-120C5 have 100+ km range. Even with high altitude they will not have longer range, specially because PAF jets are flying away. AMRAAMs were most probably launched at max distance as well to keep Sukhoi on safe distance. At max range missile lost enough energy, that they would not be difficult to escape. In CAP mission SU-30MKI should have a pair of R-27ER missiles as they have longer range than AMRAAM. With them Su-30MKI pilots could at least launch missiles against intruders to abort the strike even without working AFNET.

    About Mirages. It seem pilots didn't know what is happening and they didn't have communications with ground center, that could vector them. How this is possible is hard to say. India have AWACS planes and ground early warning radar and radar picure in ground command center. It is really hard to understand, how they didn't know, who is where. Anyway, IAF Mirage-2000 failed twice in few days. First they failed to hit targets with guided bombs in Balakot and second they failed to intercept intruding PAF jets.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:39 pm

    sorry if already posted.


    India has reportedly external link paid approximately $218 million to buy a batch of R-27 air-to-air missiles. The missiles will be equipped on the SU-30MKI aircraft of the Indian Air Force. The missiles have been acquired under 10-I projects, which mandate the three services to maintain critical weapon systems and spares for a specified minimum period. The R-27 is a medium-to-long-range air-to-air missile developed by Russia for its MiG and Sukhoi series of fighter jets. Russia developed these missiles to add capability to the Sukhoi and MiG warfare aircrafts. Indian Air Force has signed $1.1 billion deals in the past two months. These deals were supposed to acquire equipments under emergency requirements.

    https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/alliant-techsystems-to-produce-aargm-russia-starts-serial-production-of-su-57-india-buys-r-27-missiles-042683/?utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_source=did&utm_medium=headline&utm_term=Alliant_Techsystems_To_Produce_AARGM_%7C_Russia_Starts_Serial_Production_of_Su-57_%7C_India_Buys_R-27_Missiles
    medo
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    Post  medo on Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:45 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    The problem is the Indians borrowed ideas from the Saudi playbook....their arms sales are bribes for influence and not for tactical and strategic military competency.

    The Indian military still suffers from colonial hang-ups and needs a complete transformation in military affairs.  They buy capable equipment but don't buy the force multipliers needed to make it effective in the 21st century.  The comms gear, the crypto, the cyber... all of these drastically increase costs and the Indians don't buy it.  They are still stuck in a semi-colonial/Soviet era doctrine that doesn't work on the modern battlefield.

    Actually they did buy all that and pay a lot of money for it. Su-30MKI is far more expensive than Su-30SM. India decided to take all russian electronics out from SU-30MKI exept radar and IRST, as Russian electronics sucks and replace them with domestic and foreign components. Navigation complex is whole French. Communication gear is all Indian made based on Israeli Tadiran complex. On paper all that is inside. But in reality all this doesn't work as it should. How could it happen, that controller in ground command post doesn't know, who is where and leave Mirage-2000 jets unused, when they spend so much money to build ultra modern AFNET complex? No to say that they lost communications with fighters by jamming.



    It is very painful fall from Bollywood fairy tales to reallity, when facing competent Pakistan air force. Now they are urgently buying Israeli SDRs for their fighter fleet. This only prove, that Indian communications sucks and there is no guaranty, that with Israeli SDRs it will be any better, because whole AFNET complex sucks.

    Soviet era doctrine was actually quite modern fror their time. Soviet air defense was actually fully integrated in network, both ground based air defense and fighter aircraft with datalinks with GCI and AEW&C. The first who start with networking were Tu-126 AEW&C plane and Tu-128 interceptor. They have data link conection and Tu-126 could vector Tu-128 against target and a group of Tu-128 could also work together with one Tu-128 coordinating work of others inside a group. Tu-128 also have data link with GCI. A-50 with MiG-31 and Su-27 was just continuation with this doctrine.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:50 pm

    medo wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    The problem is the Indians borrowed ideas from the Saudi playbook....their arms sales are bribes for influence and not for tactical and strategic military competency.

    The Indian military still suffers from colonial hang-ups and needs a complete transformation in military affairs.  They buy capable equipment but don't buy the force multipliers needed to make it effective in the 21st century.  The comms gear, the crypto, the cyber... all of these drastically increase costs and the Indians don't buy it.  They are still stuck in a semi-colonial/Soviet era doctrine that doesn't work on the modern battlefield.

    Actually they did buy all that and pay a lot of money for it. Su-30MKI is far more expensive than Su-30SM. India decided to take all russian electronics out from SU-30MKI exept radar and IRST, as Russian electronics sucks and replace them with domestic and foreign components. Navigation complex is whole French. Communication gear is all Indian made based on Israeli Tadiran complex. On paper all that is inside. But in reality all this doesn't work as it should. How could it happen, that controller in ground command post doesn't know, who is where and leave Mirage-2000 jets unused, when they spend so much money to build ultra modern AFNET complex? No to say that they lost communications with fighters by jamming.



    It is very painful fall from Bollywood fairy tales to reallity, when facing competent Pakistan air force. Now they are urgently buying Israeli SDRs for their fighter fleet. This only prove, that Indian communications sucks and there is no guaranty, that with Israeli SDRs it will be any better, because whole AFNET complex sucks.

    Soviet era doctrine was actually quite modern fror their time. Soviet air defense  was actually fully integrated in network, both ground based air defense and fighter aircraft with datalinks with GCI and AEW&C. The first who start with networking were Tu-126 AEW&C plane and Tu-128 interceptor. They have data link conection and Tu-126 could vector Tu-128 against target and a group of Tu-128 could also work together with one Tu-128 coordinating work of others inside a group. Tu-128 also have data link with GCI. A-50 with MiG-31 and Su-27 was just continuation with this doctrine.

    I would argue Soviet C3/C4 data linking circa 1989 is better than Indian C3/C4 data linking circa 2019.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:28 pm

    medo wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:

    The problem is the Indians borrowed ideas from the Saudi playbook....their arms sales are bribes for influence and not for tactical and strategic military competency.

    The Indian military still suffers from colonial hang-ups and needs a complete transformation in military affairs.  They buy capable equipment but don't buy the force multipliers needed to make it effective in the 21st century.  The comms gear, the crypto, the cyber... all of these drastically increase costs and the Indians don't buy it.  They are still stuck in a semi-colonial/Soviet era doctrine that doesn't work on the modern battlefield.

    Actually they did buy all that and pay a lot of money for it. Su-30MKI is far more expensive than Su-30SM. India decided to take all russian electronics out from SU-30MKI exept radar and IRST, as Russian electronics sucks and replace them with domestic and foreign components. Navigation complex is whole French. Communication gear is all Indian made based on Israeli Tadiran complex. On paper all that is inside. But in reality all this doesn't work as it should. How could it happen, that controller in ground command post doesn't know, who is where and leave Mirage-2000 jets unused, when they spend so much money to build ultra modern AFNET complex? No to say that they lost communications with fighters by jamming.



    It is very painful fall from Bollywood fairy tales to reallity, when facing competent Pakistan air force. Now they are urgently buying Israeli SDRs for their fighter fleet. This only prove, that Indian communications sucks and there is no guaranty, that with Israeli SDRs it will be any better, because whole AFNET complex sucks.

    Soviet era doctrine was actually quite modern fror their time. Soviet air defense  was actually fully integrated in network, both ground based air defense and fighter aircraft with datalinks with GCI and AEW&C. The first who start with networking were Tu-126 AEW&C plane and Tu-128 interceptor. They have data link conection and Tu-126 could vector Tu-128 against target and a group of Tu-128 could also work together with one Tu-128 coordinating work of others inside a group. Tu-128 also have data link with GCI. A-50 with MiG-31 and Su-27 was just continuation with this doctrine.


    you know the cost of Su-30SM Vs Su-30MKI?????
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:07 pm

    you know the cost of Su-30SM Vs Su-30MKI?????

    Around 70 million $ for MKI. But it also includes the price of foreign hardware inside of it and they are also build in india which also increase the price because they pay indian companies which may not be included in the 70 million.

    SM should be half of that and also includes french components which will be replaced by russian ones. With some unification with su-35 price should decrease to 25-30 million $.
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    Indian Air Force (IAF): News - Page 12 Empty India Expected To Sign for More MiG-29s and Su-30MKIs in October

    Post  Pinto on Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:53 am

    New Delhi is expected to commit to a series of new major arms deals with Moscow at the next session of the Indo-Russian intergovernmental commission on military industrial cooperation, to be held in October. These would include a contract on 18 additional kits for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI heavyweight multirole fighter for assembly at HAL’s Nasik plant. This would bring the grand total of such aircraft procured since 1999 to 240. Additionally, the Indian Air Force would receive “over 20” used MiG-29 lightweight interceptors from the Russian Air and Space Force (VKS) for their subsequent conversion into MiG-29UPG multirole aircraft.

    Apart from the fighters, New Delhi is seeking to procure about 1,000 air-to-air missiles. The local media has specifically reported on 300 R-73E and 400 RVV-AE (exportable R-77) weapons developed by the Vympel design bureau. Reports also emerged recently concerning the procurement of R-27s worth $217 million. The most recent R-27 purchase was in 2013, when around 400 were bought from Ukraine, where a production line is located. Since then, Russia’s Tactical Missile Corporation (local acronym TRV) has mastered production of the R-27 and improved R-73, sometimes referred to as the R-74, at its own facilities.

    It is interesting to note that the decision to purchase Russian missiles comes after an earlier announcement that India would test MBDA missiles on the Su-30MKI. However, no request for permission to do this was filed with Moscow by India, and the licensed assembly agreement does not allow installation of third-party weapons on the Sukhoi.

    New Delhi is also looking to set up local production of the Igla-S shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missile in a manner similar to the recently agreed deal for Kalashnikov assault rifles.

    This burst of new purchases in Russia is at least partially due to the fact that Moscow and New Delhi have recently worked out a new set of payment methods and procedures that enables arms deals between them in the conditions of the newly introduced U.S. sanctions such as CAATSA. In July, Dmitri Shugayev, who heads FSVTS, Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told journalists that the two engineered a scheme under which they can make transactions in a way that evades sanctions imposed by Washington. A mutually agreed set of payment methods and mechanisms was developed specifically for the S-400 contract, involving the national banking systems and special-purpose vehicles. Once it proved workable, the sides decided to extend its application to other major deals. FVSTS refused to reveal any further details.

    Yet another major development in relations between the two nations has been the establishment of a joint after-sales support group under the umbrella of the Indo-Russian intergovernmental commission on military-industrial cooperation. Earlier this summer, the group held its first session in Sochi.

    “We agreed to expedite entering the interstate agreement on joint production of spare parts and expendables on Indian soil,” FSVTS deputy head Vladimir Drozhzhov told AIN. “A draft of it is being reviewed by various governmental structures before validation. It will give a solid foundation for the legal framework to involve Russian and Indian firms in the process of technology transfer and localization in accordance with the ‘Make in India’ policy by the incumbent cabinet in New Delhi.” He further elaborated that Moscow initially offered six separate agreements—addressing equipment for army, navy, aircraft, helicopters, missiles and aircraft carriers—but at the request of India, they were made into a single universal document.

    With the new agreements in place, Moscow hopes to grow its backlog of Indian orders, which currently stands at $14 billion. “We take this as a good point to start, and intend to make efforts to bring our military-technical cooperation to new heights,” said Drozhzhov.

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-08-03/india-expected-sign-more-mig-29s-and-su-30mkis-october
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    Post  medo on Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:56 pm

    https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-probe-confirms-27-february-budgam-chopper-crash-was-caused-by-friendly-fire/280553/

    New Delhi: The crash of a Mi-17 V5 helicopter in Budgam on 27 February, which killed seven people, including six uniformed personnel, was caused by friendly fire, a probe conducted by the Indian Air Force has ruled, according to highly-placed sources.

    “The Court of Inquiry has found that the crash was a result of system failure. Two officers, the chief operations officer (COO) and the senior air traffic control officer (SATCO), have been found to blame,” a source told ThePrint.

    The probe into the incident, which took place while the Indian and Pakistani air forces were engaged in a dogfight in the Nowshera sector around 100 km from Budgam, has also established that the helicopter was indeed shot down by the IAF’s own Israeli-made Spyder air defence system following the failure of command and control.

    ThePrint had reported on 31 March that the chopper crash could have been caused by friendly fire.

    ‘Lack of coordination’

    Sources said at the time the chopper was hit by a missile it had been in contact with air traffic control (ATC) as it was approaching the air base.

    “The ATC was in touch with the helicopter and knew it was coming back. However, the weapon operators fired because they felt it was an unmanned aircraft coming their way. There was complete lack of coordination,” a source said.

    It is learnt that the IAF’s Barnala-based Integrated Air Command & Control System, which is tasked with monitoring incoming aircraft from Pakistan, had not designated the helicopter a ‘Red’, the classification for enemy aircraft.

    The helicopter’s ‘Identification of Friend or Foe’ system — a transponder-based identification system — was switched off. Sources said despite directions from the Air Headquarters to have the transponder on all the time, the practice at the Srinagar Air Base was to switch it off because it interferes with civilian aircraft transmissions, and also because the aircraft could be identified by the enemy during battle.

    “It was indeed a system failure that led to the crash. Proper protocols were not adhered to. The COO was the person in charge of the operations at the time,” a source said.


    Indian AFNET and IADS at its best. Ultra modern AFNET was a total failure and IADS, which should be part of it is practicaly non existing. Barnala IACCS control and command with both air force and air defense. Its air traffic controler have communication with helicopter and know its possition, so IACCS could send through data link exact location of their helicopter to SAM battery and merked as friendly. This is just another proof, that no one knows who is where, that data links didn't work and voice communications were effectively jammed. Israeli SDR communications will not solve the problem. It's the whole system and incompetence. If we add here the fact, that Indian Mirages fail to hit anything in Balakot with high precision Spice-2000 guided bombs, than we clearly see, that IAF is far worse that the worst arab air force.

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