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    PAK-TA Supersonic Transport aircraft

    collegeboy16
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    Post  collegeboy16 Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:04 pm

    damn, imagine the export demand for these things- jack up the price to even c-17 levels and it will still sell like hotcakes Twisted Evil
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    Post  AlfaT8 Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:41 pm

    They finally uploaded the Vimeo vid on youtube.

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:45 pm

    Count on GarryB to guess at a connection between the PAK-DA and PAK-TA. +1 for that Cool
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    Post  AlfaT8 Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:15 pm

    kvs wrote:I hope this design gets implemented.  Time to move on in terms of aircraft design.   A lifting body concept is superior to
    anything currently available.  

    Check out the butthurt response by western "journalists":

    http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-next-generation-transport-plane-2015-3

    The only thing absurd are the two retarded clowns who wrote this troll piece and the clowns that hired them.
    Ooh well since it's been a while.

    Russia's proposed new military transport will be a behemoth of an aircraft — assuming such a plane can even fly and Russia is even vaguely serious about actually building it.
    I wonder what these two nitwits would say about the B2 or the B-49 before that. Rolling Eyes

    According to the Kremlin propaganda outfit RT, citing design specifications from Russia's Military-Industrial Commission, the new PAK TA transport will have the improbable ability to achieve supersonic flight while carrying massive payloads. The Kremlin plans to acquire 80 PAK TAs by 2024.

    "Propaganda outfit" really, considering the so-called journalism the "NON-propaganda" outfits of the west demonstrated and continue to demonstrate from 2001 through 2003 and even now and in this very article, i think i'll stick with the "Propaganda outfit".pirat

    Supersonic flight is still up in the air,..... for now.

    But until prototypes of the plane are built and begin flying, there is no telling how well the plane will actually perform or if it is even practical.  
    Considering the current situation with Russia's lack of future super-heavy lift aircraft (which these two idiots clearly aren't even aware of), it would be very practical for Russia to invest in this project and as for performance, it looks like it's gonna be very impressive.

    Russia's fifth-generation fighter, the T-50, has run into design problems. According to the Indian Air Force, the joint Indian-Russian variant of the T-50 still has numerous stealth and engine problems even at a late stage in its development.

    Ok, first of, i wasn't even aware the (2 seater) FGFA was already in flight testing? Suspect

    Second, the article they're quoting links to an old Business Insider or BI article that links to a Business Standard or BS article. Wink
    There complaints are:
    1) Russia's reluctance to share critical design information with India.
    The article doesn't really clarify what design info they're bitching about, just some gibberish about radar coverage.

    2)The fighter's current AL-41F1 (117) engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines.
    For some reason, an upgrade of one of the more reliable and proven engines in Russia is suddenly "inadequate" cuzz it's a "mere upgrade" (to say nothing of the AL-31 being from the SU-27 not MKI) again these guys need to specify WTF they're bitching about.

    3) It is too expensive. Rolling Eyes
    What do they expect for 5th gen FFS, anyway now that the Rafale is out they'll have plenty of cash. Wink

    4) its stealth features badly engineered.
    In what way the stealth is badly engineered is not mentioned anywhere in the article, sound like BS ironically from BS. Wink

    5)India's share to low.
    In what way??

    And the PAK TA presents an even greater challenge. A supersonic plane of its size and cargo capacity — an anticipated 200 tons — could land only on a very long, reinforced runway that may need to be designed specifically for the plane. It would necessitate an astonishingly large fuel load, which would further limit the number of airports from which the aircraft could take off and land. It would also have an enormous wingspan that would make the plane an easy target for enemy forces.
    The article brings up some interesting question, how many runways in Russia are capable of handling this bird, the fuel load thing is obvious BS considering it only has one Turbine engine.

    On a more basic level, who would entrust 200 tons of cargo aboard such an outlandish, experimental aircraft?
    Answer: Everyone, when it's no longer an experimental/prototype aircraft

    It would be an astonishing accomplishment if a prototype ever takes the skies — never mind 80 finished planes.

    For now, the aircraft is at most an aspiration for Russia. It may also just be a propaganda ploy meant to highlight the Kremlin's modernization drive and create the impression that Russia's military-industrial complex possesses technological capabilities beyond its actual capacity.

    Even if the PAK TA may be crude Kremlin psy-ops, the concept art for the new aircraft is still pretty spectacular. Here's what Moscow is claiming about its fanciful superplane of the distant and probably nonexistent future.
    "Propaganda ploy" unlikely, considering the PAK-DA is indeed in development and Russia isn't like the U.S who continuously create the impression that there "military-industrial complex possesses technological capabilities beyond its actual capacity".  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

    Ok, now they're just envious.  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

    The PAK-TA is being developed by the Russian aviation company Ilyushin.
    Ilyushin, that's great, Tupolev got the PAK-DA if Ilyushin gets the PAK-TA it would be great.

    The PAK TA's payload capacity is envisioned as being 80 tons more than that of the US' largest cargo plane, the C-5 Galaxy
    Hmmm... sources vary, but seems legit around 135 tons for vanilla C-5 close enough and 142 tons for C-5M.

    RT estimates that a fleet of PAK TA's could carry 400 T-14 Armata heavy tanks. Left unaddressed is why anyone would risk loading 400 tanks into a fleet this ridiculous.
    It's not ridiculous, it's necessary when you're dealing with psychopaths like NATO. attack

    The plane is thought to feature an upper gas turbine as well as twin electrically powered fans. The back of the plane's wings will generate vectored thrust — assuming a single one is ever built.
    Truly envious aren't they. Twisted Evil

    Difference Between Jealousy and Envy wrote:The main difference between envy and jealousy is that envy is the emotion of coveting what someone else has, while jealousy is the emotion related to fear that something you have will be taken away by someone else.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:16 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Sounds like a priority project for Russia

    The retirement of the An-22 Cock class is imminent. Russia has nothing to replace it in the 70-90 ton payload class. It can make do for now with its An-124 fleet but ultimately a replacement must be found.
    The main alternative is a revival of the Il-106 project; however this is a 90s project that has been forgotten and would have to be redrawn, and subsequently developed essentially from scratch. Is it worthwhile?

    The retirement of the An-124 fleet I'm guessing will come sometime in the 2020s. Perhaps they can keep on trucking a 'lil longer, till the early 2030s, but again, it's clear that the 80s built An-124 fleet won't last for too much longer and a replacement must be found for the +100 ton class
    The plan was to start up production of An-124s with the Ukraine, but with the Ukraine crisis this is now in jeapordy. Theoretically, it could still be possible to secure enough of the freefalling Antonov enterprise, to be able to go at it alone; however this depends on many variables, and the Ukrainian regime could still create problems with Russia by means of patents, legal rights and so on.
    The An-124 is an effective, but old design that can possibly be replaced with something more efficient.

    The An-225 was a one-off for the Soviet space program, and officially speaking there haven't been any military requirements for a transport plane with a capacity of this size.
    However, the heavy use and contracting of this plane by militaries world-wide show that there is definately a niche for such aircraft. Moreover, armour and vehicle weight has been steadily increasing for the last several decades. With the introduction of the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang families, each on average heavier than the MBT, BMP and BTR models respectively that preceeded them, it is worth re-examining a possible role for super-heavy transport aircraft in the Russian Air Force.

    A unified transport aircraft family, that will be able to replace the An-22, An-124 and An-225 all at once, is very much a desirable option, and though the cost of development may be large, ultimately it would prove cheaper than having to develop a seperate Il-106 project, restart An-124 production and then figure out a seperate solution later on for the super-heavy class, if it proves neccessary.

    At the moment I think all talk of supersonic, or hypersonic transport aircraft is fantasy, but it should certainly not be ruled out for the future, when propulsion technologies have reached a higher level of maturity.
    For now, the development of a subsonic transport aircraft family with the possibility for redesign for greater speeds in the coming decades, would seem a most prudent course.

    A whole new project would also open the door for multination cooperation on its development; at least on the level of funding and research.
    In no particular order, I can easily imagine the interest of China, India, Brazil, Argentina & Indonesia in such a project.

    Admit it, you just wrote that post for a chance to say An-22 Cock.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:34 pm

    That BI article is BS. No one knows of PAK FA's stealth characteristics other than armchair engineers jpeg impressions. Add to that the two seater isnt even flying yet, and an upgraded engine is no different than US methods and wouldnt even be considered a setback. Sounds like people with littleman syndrom.
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    Post  Firebird Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually if we look carefully perhaps we are seeing what PAK DA might look like too... imagine splitting the design into two categories... bomber and transport, where the transport comes in three scaled sizes of say 80 tons, 130 tons, and 200 tons, though it would be useful for the 200 ton payload capacity model to be able to carry large external loads like fuel tanks for super heavy space launch systems.

    With the Bomber branch you could have the strategic bomber with a 9 to 15 ton payload and the rest of the payload fuel for extended flight range while a theater bomber with a heavy payload of perhaps 50-60 tons and reduced fuel for operations over Europe and Asia.

    You could even add maritime patrol aircraft, inflight refuelling aircraft, AWACS and JSTARs like aircraft and of course civilian passenger aircraft.

    I rather suspect even supersonic flight would be out of the question initially... just because the engine requirements, though the blown flaps concept is interesting to increase takeoff power/performance...

    I find this very exciting as there were clear gaps in the transport inventory with the An-22 soon to leave service and the An-124 an excellent aircraft but it wont last forever...

    Its an intriguing set of designs.
    The key q is what will be built. How will it work. And how will it be used.

    I suppose its a bit like 1 and a bit Tu-160s joined together in weight terms.

    The vid talks about electric fans and gas turbines. It seems there's a battery on board too.
    I'd be surprised if that is the next plan, and not the next plan but one. But who knows.

    We've seen supersonic and biggish size before - Tu 160. We've seen stealth and reasonable size - B2 etc. But we've never seen very big, stealthy AND very fast.

    I know Russia spoke with Boeing about a supersonic 747 sized jet in the early 1990s. But adding stealth and perhaps range is a whole new issue.

    I wonder how stealth works with those fans. And I wonder how the electric fans aspect works.
    Also, I wonder if it will be one huge engine. Again, this seems perculiar, but who knows.

    I'm a little puzzled at the idea the Pak Da is sub sonic now, but the cargo plane... we believe is actually supersonic. Normally, the 2 are the opposite way round.

    Finally, I wonder how much drag the shape would have. And how much stealth. Unlike the B2, it has a tail. And its body, whilst blended is a fair bit wider, and slightly taller.

    Cargo planes have traditionally been considered a bit "boring" amongst mil planes. So, if this is the 21st Century Ru cargo plane, I wonder what other ideas they have up their sleeves...russia
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    Post  Firebird Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:44 pm

    Clearly, Russian military doctrine is now focussing on ultra rapid reaction. As seen by the waves of snap exercises.

    Russia does have a shortage of airlift equipment AND the slower naval transport.
    With these transport improvements, I wonder how this willaffect Russia's land forces. Will it mean larger forces focussed on global issues. (Its been unable to guarantee some state's security in the past, due to logistics issues).

    Perhaps it could mean higher quality equipment, but being flexible and able to shuttle it from the Kurils, to the Arctic and even off to Africa at lightening speed.

    It could mean the return of genuine allies in Africa and all round the World. Perhaps it will be all part of the new Customs Union. After all, a trade system only works with guarantees on trade stability.
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    Post  mack8 Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:00 am

    Regardless of other things, think should be pretty certain that the concept we saw in the video (a pretty darn cool one, yes) is subsonic, not only because of the aerodynamic shape but also those electric fans (one single engine turning two fans with their straight intakes AND the craft to supersonic speed? no way). A supersonic transport imo could indeed look something like a larger Tu-160 with or without VG wings, longer and more slender comparative to this CGI, and supersonic optimized intakes for the super-cruise optimized engines, but obviously payload would be reduced for the same size.

    Perhaps the PAK-TA will or will not be built in this form, but the question for the experts would be (and i'm genuinely interested) is this configuration offering better payload, range and cost effectiveness compared to a more orthodox one (like An-124 or An-225)? These are the main parameters for a successful transport isn't it?

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    Post  mack8 Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:04 am

    Oh and regarding PAK-DA (allegedly subsonic, remember) and it's possible relation to this concept, i remember now i saw one of Paralay's renderings showing an aircraft fairly similar to a B-2 in configuration, but with wing root embedded intakes just like this CGI has for the electric fans!

    PS: And also, let's not forget the BWB concept we saw in TsAGIs wind tunnel.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:26 am

    TR1 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Sounds like a priority project for Russia

    The retirement of the An-22 Cock class is imminent. Russia has nothing to replace it in the 70-90 ton payload class. It can make do for now with its An-124 fleet but ultimately a replacement must be found.
    The main alternative is a revival of the Il-106 project; however this is a 90s project that has been forgotten and would have to be redrawn, and subsequently developed essentially from scratch. Is it worthwhile?

    The retirement of the An-124 fleet I'm guessing will come sometime in the 2020s. Perhaps they can keep on trucking a 'lil longer, till the early 2030s, but again, it's clear that the 80s built An-124 fleet won't last for too much longer and a replacement must be found for the +100 ton class
    The plan was to start up production of An-124s with the Ukraine, but with the Ukraine crisis this is now in jeapordy. Theoretically, it could still be possible to secure enough of the freefalling Antonov enterprise, to be able to go at it alone; however this depends on many variables, and the Ukrainian regime could still create problems with Russia by means of patents, legal rights and so on.
    The An-124 is an effective, but old design that can possibly be replaced with something more efficient.

    The An-225 was a one-off for the Soviet space program, and officially speaking there haven't been any military requirements for a transport plane with a capacity of this size.
    However, the heavy use and contracting of this plane by militaries world-wide show that there is definately a niche for such aircraft. Moreover, armour and vehicle weight has been steadily increasing for the last several decades. With the introduction of the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang families, each on average heavier than the MBT, BMP and BTR models respectively that preceeded them, it is worth re-examining a possible role for super-heavy transport aircraft in the Russian Air Force.

    A unified transport aircraft family, that will be able to replace the An-22, An-124 and An-225 all at once, is very much a desirable option, and though the cost of development may be large, ultimately it would prove cheaper than having to develop a seperate Il-106 project, restart An-124 production and then figure out a seperate solution later on for the super-heavy class, if it proves neccessary.

    At the moment I think all talk of supersonic, or hypersonic transport aircraft is fantasy, but it should certainly not be ruled out for the future, when propulsion technologies have reached a higher level of maturity.
    For now, the development of a subsonic transport aircraft family with the possibility for redesign for greater speeds in the coming decades, would seem a most prudent course.

    A whole new project would also open the door for multination cooperation on its development; at least on the level of funding and research.
    In no particular order, I can easily imagine the interest of China, India, Brazil, Argentina & Indonesia in such a project.

    Admit it, you just wrote that post for a chance to say An-22 Cock.

    Yes. Yes I did.
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    Post  Firebird Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:40 am

    Several have noticed what is a large plane apparently powered by just one engine. And therefore suspect that it would be a subsonic jet.

    However, China and America are also talking about a supersonic stealth flying wing too.
    And China is even talking about a nuclear powered version.

    I think the Pak Ta in in vid isn't a full flying wing. I also notice the huge air intakes and turbines.
    The vid mentions electricity. So I am wondering if we have some sort of new fangled propulsion.

    This is an interesting site discussion electric turbines.
    http://revolution-green.com/magnetic-advanced-generation-jet-electric-turbine/

    Maybe this explains how the Pak Ta could be powered to super sonic speeds?

    After all, the article was pretty firm in its belief that there was a supersonic, or perhaps even faster option..

    PS maybe this is all in the field of S-MAGJET technologies. One characteristic of that is wider turbine blades. Look at the vid, and they look pretty large. So maybe this is the case.
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:43 am

    Last nuclear powered aircraft was Myasischev and Tupovlev in the 60's that powered a Tu-95 with a nuclear engine.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:43 am


    Supersonic flight is still up in the air,..... for now.

    It wont be very practical until scramjet engine technology has matured and even then the conflict of very low drag but high internal volume for cargo or strategic weapons for the transport or bomber version will make the design either very very expensive... which is hardly justified, or not very practical... ie a hypersonic bomber able to carry one 500kg bomb at hypersonic speed for 2,000km, or a cargo plane able to carry one jeep at hypersonic speed for 1,000km... and both aircraft being very very expensive.

    But until prototypes of the plane are built and begin flying, there is no telling how well the plane will actually perform or if it is even practical.

    Yeah... what would Russia know about aircraft design?

    I would say a hypersonic transport plane would not be practical, but at least they haven't claimed it will be stealthy and able to supercruise...

    What do they expect for 5th gen FFS, anyway now that the Rafale is out they'll have plenty of cash.

    They were going to spend 174 million dollars per Rafale... 22 billion on a 10 billion contract... they could have had 10 aircraft carriers with complete MiG-29K air wings for that but the critics who lambasted the carrier deal seem to be suddenly quiet...

    4) its stealth features badly engineered.
    In what way the stealth is badly engineered is not mentioned anywhere in the article, sound like BS ironically from BS.

    I have seen pictures of the first YF-22 and it didn't look so stealthy either... I think the time to criticise is when we see the serial aircraft design...

    5)India's share to low.
    In what way??

    Increasing share is easy... pay more money...

    The article brings up some interesting question, how many runways in Russia are capable of handling this bird, the fuel load thing is obvious BS considering it only has one Turbine engine.

    They mention three related designs... I suspect the single engine model is the 80 ton payload version with the 150 odd ton model perhaps with 3 or 4 engines and the 250 ton payload model 5-6 engines perhaps with an engine driven blown flaps system aiding lift at takeoff and landing... perhaps reducing the engine requirement... I would normally expect the 80 ton aircraft to be at least a twin engined aircraft and the middle with 4 and the biggest with 6 which would work with the AN-124 design where a reduced scale model with two engines in the 80 ton class could be imagined.

    If the assisted fan system can reduce the number of engines required making it a single 80, twin 150, and a four engined 250 ton aircraft would make them cheaper to build and operate assuming rather huge powerful engines, but then the engine for the PAK-DA is based on the 25 ton thrust turbojet, so assuming a lot of bypass air you could increase thrust 4-5 fold with a lower velocity so lots of thrust but no supersonic speed option as it becomes a turbofan.

    Would be interesting seeing a transport put on afterburners to take off, but most of the flight it doesn't use full thrust anyway so they would be rather more fuel efficient for most of the flight except takeoff....

    Ilyushin, that's great, Tupolev got the PAK-DA if Ilyushin gets the PAK-TA it would be great.

    Would be interesting if they cooperated on basic design and propulsion...

    Hmmm... sources vary, but seems legit around 135 tons for vanilla C-5 close enough and 142 tons for C-5M.

    Bollocks... Vanilla C-5s manage 105 tons when they are operational.... it is not an accident that the An-124s are busy doing NATO business around the world...

    Admit it, you just wrote that post for a chance to say An-22 Cock.

    Come on TR-1 that sounds like cock envy.... What a Face

    The vid talks about electric fans and gas turbines. It seems there's a battery on board too.

    Nahh... batteries are too heavy... it is most likely the electric fans would be driven from an alternater taking power directly from the jet engine/s.


    We've seen supersonic and biggish size before - Tu 160.

    Except the Tu-160 is only supersonic with its wings swept right back... I rather doubt this transport will have heavy variable sweep wings... which means a moderate sweep as shown in the vid to get airborne with a decent load which would be too high a drag to allow supersonic flight.

    I know Russia spoke with Boeing about a supersonic 747 sized jet in the early 1990s. But adding stealth and perhaps range is a whole new issue.

    With the Tu-160 and Tu-144M the Russians have rather more operational experience with large fast aircraft than anyone else... yes... even concorde.

    I'm a little puzzled at the idea the Pak Da is sub sonic now, but the cargo plane... we believe is actually supersonic. Normally, the 2 are the opposite way round.

    If they are both basically flying wings they will both be subsonic... which will make them cheaper and simpler.

    Finally, I wonder how much drag the shape would have. And how much stealth. Unlike the B2, it has a tail. And its body, whilst blended is a fair bit wider, and slightly taller.

    Have another look at the B-2 is it very fat from side on, but the tail will greatly reduce stealth it will improve control... especially with the largest model carrying 250 ton payloads that will likely include external loads like the huge fuel tanks for super rockets/space planes...

    Perhaps it could mean higher quality equipment, but being flexible and able to shuttle it from the Kurils, to the Arctic and even off to Africa at lightening speed.

    I rather suspect armata will be used in defensive conflicts rather than invasions so the bid to make them air mobile is based on getting the capability to move an armata brigade from one side of Russia to the other in a few hours instead of days or weeks by train.

    I also think the problem of replacing ukrainian antonov based transports is key and if they can kill several birds with one stone and create commonality between the different types and jobs all the better. Right now there is only one An-225 which was designed and built for the purpose of moving oversized payloads for the Soviet space industry... Ukraine now owns the An-225 and has no space industry to speak of, so the issue of replacing the An-225, An-124, An-22, An-70, An-12, An-140, and An-72 and An-26, An-24, and An-32 having a unified design replace the top three simplifies things immensely...

    This new 250 ton aircraft would replace the An-225, the 150 ton model replaces the An-124, the 80 ton model replaces the An-22 and the incomplete Il-106, the Il-476 replaces the An-70, the MTA with India replaces the An-12, the Il-112 and the Il-112V and perhaps another model with more engine power replaces the An-24/26/32/72/140.

    Yes. Yes I did.

    You sound very cock sure... clown

    Several have noticed what is a large plane apparently powered by just one engine. And therefore suspect that it would be a subsonic jet.

    A flying wing is very low drag but needs a tail to be supersonic because of the cg shift at transonic speeds. I think this design is subsonic based on the wing sweep angle.

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    Post  Firebird Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:03 am

    The Vimeo video makes some interesting statements.
    It refers to "energy storage" on the top, connected to the gas turbine.
    Thats why I'm wondering about some sort of MAGJET arrangement. Or something similar.

    The vid also mentions vector thrust. Does that mean that there is some sort of propulsion embedded in the wing backs?

    Also, those fans look huge. The An 124 isn't huge in front section view compared to this Pak Ta.
    That again suggests a faster plane, I suspect (more powerful engines in Pak Ta)

    And finally, as Garry observes, the Pak Ta has a large tail.

    I think the vid is highly styled, prob a mix of various ideas. But I wouldn't be surprised if it includes elements of Supersonic. Why would the articles be so insistent on a 2000kph plane?

    It would be interesting to see how the figures would work. Fuel economy, thrust, top speed, lift and drag ratios.
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    Post  collegeboy16 Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:29 am

    Firebird wrote:Clearly, Russian military doctrine is now focussing on ultra rapid reaction. As seen by the waves of snap exercises.

    Russia does have a shortage of airlift equipment  AND the slower naval transport.
    With  these transport improvements, I wonder how this willaffect Russia's land forces. Will it mean larger forces focussed on global issues. (Its been unable to guarantee some state's security in the past, due to logistics issues).

    Perhaps it could mean higher quality equipment, but being flexible and able to shuttle it from the Kurils, to the Arctic and even off to Africa at lightening speed.

    ultra rapid reaction is the way to go x2- as crimea and georgia can attest to. prospect of elite airborne polite people with reaally heavy armor landing in the middle of your backyard airbase/airport is gonna be really big motivator to step back and rethink things a little more- esp. if you dont have nukes.
    Firebird wrote:
    It could mean the return of genuine allies in Africa and all round the World. Perhaps it will be all part of the new Customs Union. After all, a trade system only works with guarantees on trade stability.
    you're making it sound like protection racket- no i think russia should not be obliged to protect its partners for sake of trade- rather give them reasonable deals for self-defence arms.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:26 pm

    The aircraft design shown here is an extremely efficient design that is mainly enabled by two technologies that the Russians are for the first time publicizing.

    Before I start this brief analysis, I should mention that the aircraft shown here is not supersonic; however, PAK TA may very well be supersonic, but it would then be a different aircraft.

    Analysis in outline form will now follow:

    1- Enabling technology number 1: high-power-to-weight ratio electrical power generation technology. Traditionally, electrical power generation has been a very low-power-to-weight ratio process, especially when you compare it with a high-power-to-weight ratio system like a gas turbine. However, Russians have had high-power-to-weight ratio electrical power generation technologies involving, for example, gas-turbine-integrated magnetohydrodynamic generators, superconductivity, and ...

    2- Enabling technology number 2: high-energy-density electrical energy storage technology. Traditionally, electrical energy storage has been of a low energy per unit mass and of a low energy per unit volume, especially by aviation standards.

    3- Given the enabling technologies "1" and "2", an extremely efficient aircraft design, like the aircraft shown, can be developed, using only one gas turbine engine.

    4- This is how it works:

    (a) During cruise, a highly efficient subsonic aircraft only needs one-fifth of its takeoff thrust; therefore, during cruise, a large part of its installed thrust gets wasted; aditionally, the engine cruise SFC (specific fuel consumption) is double the takeoff SFC.

    (b) The single gas turbine charges the batteries before the take off.

    (c) During the takeoff, the large takeoff thrust is generated cooperatively by the batteries and the gas turbine.

    (d) The batteries only store energy for takeoff and high-thrust maneuvers. They are sized for this purpose.

    (e) During cruise, the gas turbine doesn't throttle down massively, to an inefficient, high-SFC regime; it only throttles down to its optimal-SFC thrust, which in this design, of course, happens to be the cruise thrust rating. This means that the advantage, just due to the optimal engine SFC, is an SFC that is only half the cruise SFC of an engine of comparable technology.
    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:44 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:The aircraft design shown here is an extremely efficient design that is mainly enabled by two technologies that the Russians are for the first time publicizing.

    Before I start this brief analysis, I should mention that the aircraft shown here is not supersonic; however, PAK TA may very well be supersonic, but it would then be a different aircraft.

    Analysis in outline form will now follow:

    1- Enabling technology number 1: high-power-to-weight ratio electrical power generation technology. Traditionally, electrical power generation has been a very low-power-to-weight ratio process, especially when you compare it with a high-power-to-weight ratio system like a gas turbine. However, Russians have had high-power-to-weight ratio electrical power generation technologies involving, for example, gas-turbine-integrated magnetohydrodynamic generators, superconductivity, and ...

    2- Enabling technology number 2: high-energy-density electrical energy storage technology. Traditionally, electrical energy storage has been of a low energy per unit mass and of a low energy per unit volume, especially by aviation standards.

    3- Given the enabling technologies "1" and "2", an extremely efficient aircraft design, like the aircraft shown, can be developed, using only one gas turbine engine.

    4- This is how it works:

    (a) During cruise, a highly efficient subsonic aircraft only needs one-fifth of its takeoff thrust; therefore, during cruise, a large part of its installed thrust gets wasted; aditionally, the engine cruise SFC (specific fuel consumption) is double the takeoff SFC.

    (b) The single gas turbine charges the batteries before the take off.

    (c) During the takeoff, the large takeoff thrust is generated cooperatively by the batteries and the gas turbine.

    (d) The batteries only store energy for takeoff and high-thrust maneuvers. They are sized for this purpose.

    (e) During cruise, the gas turbine doesn't throttle down massively, to an inefficient, high-SFC regime; it only throttles down to its optimal-SFC thrust, which in this design, of course, happens to be the cruise thrust rating. This means that the advantage, just due to the optimal engine SFC, is an SFC that is only half the cruise SFC of an engine of comparable technology.

    I should add another aspect to the analysis:

    In terms of engine-out capability, the aircraft shown is not like a single engine aircraft. The reason is as follows:

    1- If during takeoff a gas turbine failure occurs, the batteries driving the two electrically driven fans provide reasonable engine-out capability.

    2- After climb-out, before throttling down to the engine's optimal SFC regime, the aircraft uses the marginal excess thrust of the gas turbine to again fully charge the batteries.

    3- If during cruise a gas turbine failure occurs, the two electrically driven fans will switch to the batteries, providing reasonable engine-out capability.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:25 pm

    That advanced transport aircraft model was made by Alexey Komarov, a graduate of Moscow’s Stroganov University of the Arts and Industry, received a special prize for his concept of a transport aircraft of the future.

    Well i say it has no relationship with real PAK-TA.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:55 pm

    Another aspect of the design of the aircraft shown is it's stealth capabilities.

    Low acoustic signature is useful for a transport aircraft that is performing paradrops. This aircraft can shutdown or idle its gas turbine engine and rely only on the batteries in the airdrop zone, reducing its acoustic signature substantially.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:47 pm

    PAK-DA ....maybe, at least some elements possibly.

    The video is probably some sort of concept for a future high tech transport.

    PAK-TA will IMO be a more conventional design.

    PAK-TA Supersonic Transport aircraft - Page 2 Th_77889_FutureTRansport_122_346lo
    AlfaT8
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    Post  AlfaT8 Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:30 am

    Cyberspec wrote:PAK-DA ....maybe, at least some elements possibly.

    The video is probably some sort of concept for a future high tech transport.

    PAK-TA will IMO be a more conventional design.

    PAK-TA Supersonic Transport aircraft - Page 2 Th_77889_FutureTRansport_122_346lo
    Pity, it would have been a very interesting aircraft that would above all put the Americans to shame. Cool
    2SPOOKY4U
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    Post  2SPOOKY4U Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:41 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:PAK-DA ....maybe, at least some elements possibly.

    The video is probably some sort of concept for a future high tech transport.

    PAK-TA will IMO be a more conventional design.

    PAK-TA Supersonic Transport aircraft - Page 2 Th_77889_FutureTRansport_122_346lo
    Pity, it would have been a very interesting aircraft that would above all put the Americans to shame. Cool

    It is no shame, Russia gets a new transport aircraft that is good for them. Why would they spend so much time and money just to have some of the coolest transport?

    If it airdrops, it airdrops, if it delivers, it delivers. And what really matters is that it can be bought in large numbers. We might be seeing the world's first air lift able blitzkrieg force.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:45 am

    Cyberspec wrote:PAK-DA ....maybe, at least some elements possibly.

    The video is probably some sort of concept for a future high tech transport.

    PAK-TA will IMO be a more conventional design.

    PAK-TA Supersonic Transport aircraft - Page 2 Th_77889_FutureTRansport_122_346lo

    Yes, the video was dated from 2014 design contest for "future cargo aircraft"

    http://www.transportjournal.com/en/home/heavylift-breakbulk/artikeldetail/giant-cargo-planes-of-the-future.html

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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:57 am

    BTW, is it mere coincidence that the ambitious required attributes for the PAK-TA were announced only right after Russia unilaterally pulled out of the CFE treaty? Also could there possibly be secret financing from the Chinese side under the guise of the announced wide-body aircraft cooperation?

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