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    PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

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    max steel
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    PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  max steel on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:00 pm

    WELL WHAT TO SAY !  russia


    Future Russian army could deploy anywhere in the world – in 7 hours  attack  russia    


    7,000-km-range supersonic plane delivering 400 next-gen tanks - details of secret Russian military 'PAK TA' program leaked   affraid . A beautiful design somewhat looking like B-2 yankee bomber .  paratrooper



    http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/3b/1b/10/00/uggjffkou8q.si.jpg



    http://rt.com/news/242097-pak-ta-russian-army/

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    PAK-TA Russian Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  Firebird on Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:52 pm

    This is a potentially massive development for the Russian armed forces.

    http://rt.com/news/242097-pak-ta-russian-army/

    Also worth checking out the link at RT

    Discussions of a plan to build 80, that would move 400 tanks anywhere in the world within 7 hours.
    Initially planned to be 2000kph with a large range, ie 7000km is being talked about. Serial production might begin in 2024

    Ofcourse this might not happen. But if it did, it could be a massive gamechanger.

    _______________________________
    We think of large supersonic or even hypersonic planes as something from  the future.
    But throughout the Cold War 1, Russia and America spent lots of time developing possible hyper or supersonic very large jets.

    Russia almost went the route of hypersonic planes as far back as the 1950s and 60s, I think. But they decided ICBMs were better.

    Russia then built large supersonic planes like the Tu-144, then the Tu-160, and also had a Sukhoi very large plane.

    Clearly it has had technologies for the PAK-TA for a long time. The question is value for money and affordability. With 21st century discoveries, I wonder what ambitious plans from the Soviet era can be dusted off an renewed with new materials, technologies etc.


    Last edited by Firebird on Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  Firebird on Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:02 pm

    I don't think we're gonna see this sort of plan overnight. Maybe by the mid/late 2020s, but if it did happen there would be big implications for Russian strategic plans. And for geopolitics.

    1stly on strategic plans, Russia could be much more flexible in the command centres with its borders.
    There are potential fronts in East Asia/Pacific, the Caucuses, the Arctic, maybe the West too. Further afield there is the Middle East, and maybe even Cuba/Venezuela defence etc.

    A ship might take 20 something days to reach Latin America. Getting from the West to Eastern Russia by ship is a nightmare. The PAK TA takes all that problem out.

    It could defend a country against massive attack in hours not weeks.

    PAK TAs could be used as huge refuellers, as airborne ABM systems, even nuclear powered laser defence systems.

    Hundreds of fighters and bombers could be sent within hours. Next, SAM missile installations could be sent. Later, tanks and ground troops could be sent.

    This could mean Russia could set up its own equivalent of NATO for South America, or for the Pacific Rim, Africa or many other places. It could guarantee its partners against attack without the need for nuclear strikes.

    That could set up Russia as a "global guarantor of stability" and mean Russia COULD have a dominant financial system, in the way America has had with NATO and its huge navies/airlift capacity etc.

    Ofcourse, it could also be misused. Or it might never be developed. Who knows?

    But its certainly an interesting development.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:11 pm

    it is just an artist concept, and maybe remain as that forever

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  Firebird on Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:50 pm

    George1 wrote:it is just an artist concept, and maybe remain as that forever

    Correct. The concept pics are done by an artist. Albeit one of them was at Volga-Dnieper freight.

    But a supersonic cargo jet wouldn't be hard. Just look at what was being produced with the Tu144 and Tu160.

    There are also huge hypersonic plane plans from the 80s, 70s and even 50s and 60s.

    Naturally the 2000kph variant would come first. Its not a big leap for Russia in tech terms. But its beyond  everyone else except America to produce economically.

    So I wonder what Russia's geopolitical views are on this.
    I wonder what would happen if America tried to invade Cuba, which is still important for any strategic defence of Russia. Remember America planned to frame Cuba for shooting down an airliner, with a false flag operation.

    This PAK TA could prevent something like an invasion of Cuba or Venezuela, and mean Russia could wield immense power in guaranteeing the indepedence of nations around the World.
    Currently, it can only really do that with nukes.

    It would also mean that Syria could have crushed ISIS, without Russia even needing to send a single ship.

    EDIT:
    PS the Tu160 was initially planned to have something like 120 units. That was a long time ago when a large supersonic plane must have been a big challenge. So that would suggest 80 today would be easier. Also, a mobile armed forces means less equipment might be needed. You can ferry stock around without stockpiling it in unused areas. You can also charge any nations that require the option of it to defend their borders.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:17 pm

    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150319/1019742286.html

    A fleet of 80 such aircraft will be built by 2024 and will be capable of transferring 400 Armata heavy missile tanks or 900 light armored vehicles to the American continent or Australia in 7-8 hours.
    Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi Su-30 fighter aircraft flies past during a parade at an airbase in Tezpur, India, Friday, Nov. 21 2014
    © AP PHOTO/ ANUPAM NATH
    Russian Arms Sales Top $15.5 Billion for 2014 Despite Sanctions' Impact
    MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia plans to build a fleet of supersonic military transport aircraft with an unprecedented payload of 220 tons capable of deploying a full-fledged armored army to anywhere in the world in seven hours, Expert Online reported Thursday.
    A fleet of 80 such aircraft, dubbed PAK TA, will be built by 2024 and will be capable of transferring 400 Armata heavy missile tanks or 900 light armored vehicles with ammunition to the American continent or Australia in 7-8 hours, according to the media outlet, which cited a military source who attended a closed meeting of the Military-Industrial Commission in Moscow.

    Tupolev TU-95
    © FLICKR/ GREG BISHOP
    Russian Strategic Bombers Conduct Drills in Arctic Circle
    "For your understanding, one flight of the [PAK TA aircraft] fleet will be enough to deploy, say, to Cuba an operational and tactical army unit comparable to the total amount of US and NATO forces in Iraq," Expert Online quoted the source as saying.
    One PAK TA aircraft can transport five heavy missile tanks, anti-aircraft missile complexes, multiple launch missile systems, and anti-tank missile fighting vehicles, without refueling a distance of 4,350 miles, the source elaborated.

    Expert Online added that the ambitious PAK TA project will include a family of medium to super-heavy aircraft.

    The heaviest of the aircraft will significantly exceed the carrying threshold of the existing Antonov An-124 Ruslan, an aircraft with up to 165 tons payload.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:21 pm

    Firebird wrote:
    George1 wrote:it is just an artist concept, and maybe remain as that forever

    Correct. The concept pics are done by an artist. Albeit one of them was at Volga-Dnieper freight.

    But a supersonic cargo jet wouldn't be hard. Just look at what was being produced with the Tu144 and Tu160.

    There are also huge hypersonic plane plans from the 80s, 70s and even 50s and 60s.

    Naturally the 2000kph variant would come first. Its not a big leap for Russia in tech terms. But its beyond  everyone else except America to produce economically.

    So I wonder what Russia's geopolitical views are on this.
    I wonder what would happen if America tried to invade Cuba, which is still important for any strategic defence of Russia. Remember America planned to frame Cuba for shooting down an airliner, with a false flag operation.

    This PAK TA could prevent something like an invasion of Cuba or Venezuela, and mean Russia could wield immense power in guaranteeing the indepedence of nations around the World.
    Currently, it can only really do that with nukes.

    A much easier idea would be to give the Cuban's and Venezuelan's license and production rights to Pantsir-S1 and Antey-2500 and the missiles, and develop a cheap mass produced trailers that can be towed with the Antey-2500 units and launch Antey missiles under a Antey-2500 command post, but without all the expensive components. So Cuba and Venezuela could have 5 batteries of Antey-2500 and have hundreds of trailers that can be towed or carried by a semi-truck. You could have a special trailer for Pantsir missiles that could towed on a semi-truck trailer with several dozen Pantsir missiles, and a 57 mm gun system to assist in SHORAD.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:09 pm

    Sounds like a priority project for Russia

    The retirement of the An-22 Cock class is imminent. Russia has nothing to replace it in the 70-90 ton payload class. It can make do for now with its An-124 fleet but ultimately a replacement must be found.
    The main alternative is a revival of the Il-106 project; however this is a 90s project that has been forgotten and would have to be redrawn, and subsequently developed essentially from scratch. Is it worthwhile?

    The retirement of the An-124 fleet I'm guessing will come sometime in the 2020s. Perhaps they can keep on trucking a 'lil longer, till the early 2030s, but again, it's clear that the 80s built An-124 fleet won't last for too much longer and a replacement must be found for the +100 ton class
    The plan was to start up production of An-124s with the Ukraine, but with the Ukraine crisis this is now in jeapordy. Theoretically, it could still be possible to secure enough of the freefalling Antonov enterprise, to be able to go at it alone; however this depends on many variables, and the Ukrainian regime could still create problems with Russia by means of patents, legal rights and so on.
    The An-124 is an effective, but old design that can possibly be replaced with something more efficient.

    The An-225 was a one-off for the Soviet space program, and officially speaking there haven't been any military requirements for a transport plane with a capacity of this size.
    However, the heavy use and contracting of this plane by militaries world-wide show that there is definately a niche for such aircraft. Moreover, armour and vehicle weight has been steadily increasing for the last several decades. With the introduction of the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang families, each on average heavier than the MBT, BMP and BTR models respectively that preceeded them, it is worth re-examining a possible role for super-heavy transport aircraft in the Russian Air Force.

    A unified transport aircraft family, that will be able to replace the An-22, An-124 and An-225 all at once, is very much a desirable option, and though the cost of development may be large, ultimately it would prove cheaper than having to develop a seperate Il-106 project, restart An-124 production and then figure out a seperate solution later on for the super-heavy class, if it proves neccessary.

    At the moment I think all talk of supersonic, or hypersonic transport aircraft is fantasy, but it should certainly not be ruled out for the future, when propulsion technologies have reached a higher level of maturity.
    For now, the development of a subsonic transport aircraft family with the possibility for redesign for greater speeds in the coming decades, would seem a most prudent course.

    A whole new project would also open the door for multination cooperation on its development; at least on the level of funding and research.
    In no particular order, I can easily imagine the interest of China, India, Brazil, Argentina & Indonesia in such a project.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  Zivo on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:06 pm

    max steel wrote: WELL WHAT TO SAY !  russia


    Future Russian army could deploy anywhere in the world – in 7 hours  attack  russia    


    7,000-km-range supersonic plane delivering 400 next-gen tanks - details of secret Russian military 'PAK TA' program leaked   affraid . A beautiful design somewhat looking like B-2 yankee bomber .  paratrooper



    http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/3b/1b/10/00/uggjffkou8q.si.jpg



    http://rt.com/news/242097-pak-ta-russian-army/

    Sensationalism aside, the ducted fans on the wings/hull of that aircraft is an absolutely insane design.  It's actually using the engine's thrust to force air over the control surfaces to produced a high amount of vectored thrust without adding additional moving parts. The artists/engineers behind this concept aircraft have some amazing talent. I really hope civilian/military transports are this beautiful in the near future.


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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:14 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Sounds like a priority project for Russia

    The retirement of the An-22 Cock class is imminent. Russia has nothing to replace it in the 70-90 ton payload class. It can make do for now with its An-124 fleet but ultimately a replacement must be found.
    The main alternative is a revival of the Il-106 project; however this is a 90s project that has been forgotten and would have to be redrawn, and subsequently developed essentially from scratch. Is it worthwhile?

    The retirement of the An-124 fleet I'm guessing will come sometime in the 2020s. Perhaps they can keep on trucking a 'lil longer, till the early 2030s, but again, it's clear that the 80s built An-124 fleet won't last for too much longer and a replacement must be found for the +100 ton class
    The plan was to start up production of An-124s with the Ukraine, but with the Ukraine crisis this is now in jeapordy. Theoretically, it could still be possible to secure enough of the freefalling Antonov enterprise, to be able to go at it alone; however this depends on many variables, and the Ukrainian regime could still create problems with Russia by means of patents, legal rights and so on.
    The An-124 is an effective, but old design that can possibly be replaced with something more efficient.

    The An-225 was a one-off for the Soviet space program, and officially speaking there haven't been any military requirements for a transport plane with a capacity of this size.
    However, the heavy use and contracting of this plane by militaries world-wide show that there is definately a niche for such aircraft. Moreover, armour and vehicle weight has been steadily increasing for the last several decades. With the introduction of the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang families, each on average heavier than the MBT, BMP and BTR models respectively that preceeded them, it is worth re-examining a possible role for super-heavy transport aircraft in the Russian Air Force.

    A unified transport aircraft family, that will be able to replace the An-22, An-124 and An-225 all at once, is very much a desirable option, and though the cost of development may be large, ultimately it would prove cheaper than having to develop a seperate Il-106 project, restart An-124 production and then figure out a seperate solution later on for the super-heavy class, if it proves neccessary.

    At the moment I think all talk of supersonic, or hypersonic transport aircraft is fantasy, but it should certainly not be ruled out for the future, when propulsion technologies have reached a higher level of maturity.
    For now, the development of a subsonic transport aircraft family with the possibility for redesign for greater speeds in the coming decades, would seem a most prudent course.

    A whole new project would also open the door for multination cooperation on its development; at least on the level of funding and research.
    In no particular order, I can easily imagine the interest of China, India, Brazil, Argentina & Indonesia in such a project.

    Agreed 100%, +1.  Its the age of the An-22/124 fleet and the absurdity of planning any replacements/upgrades around the Ukr goose-steppers that provide the strategic drivers for such a program.  Its a real shame as in many ways Antonov was one of the great jewels in the crown of Soviet aerospace industry that ended up on the wrong side of the border and has suffered accordingly (same for Yuznoye/Yuzmash).

    More generally, the recent geo-political hostility displayed by the US and the gutless acquiescence by the Euro-vassal states has reaffirmed how vital it is for Russia to have indigenous capabilities for all strategic needs incl defense, aviation, shipbuilding, power systems & propulsion, rocketry & space systems, electronics & sensors, oil & gas exploration/production  etc etc.  Any reliance on foreign suppliers which can be subject to aggressive sanctions needs to be overcome by large scale public investments in the relevant industries. Turbine powerplants and helicopter engines to replace Ukr-sourced units are obvious (and topical) instances, but there are many more, and they all need to go.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  kvs on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:35 pm

    I hope this design gets implemented. Time to move on in terms of aircraft design. A lifting body concept is superior to
    anything currently available.

    Check out the butthurt response by western "journalists":

    http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-next-generation-transport-plane-2015-3

    The only thing absurd are the two retarded clowns who wrote this troll piece and the clowns that hired them.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:14 pm

    kvs wrote:I hope this design gets implemented.  Time to move on in terms of aircraft design.   A lifting body concept is superior to
    anything currently available.  

    Check out the butthurt response by western "journalists":

    http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-next-generation-transport-plane-2015-3

    The only thing absurd are the two retarded clowns who wrote this troll piece and the clowns that hired them.

    Haha i can't stop laughing.

    According to Kremlin propaganda outfit RT citing...

    The biggest propagandists the anglosucksons are calling others to be propaganda spreader...seriously the pot calling the kettle black.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  Firebird on Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:09 am

    The Tu-160 first flew in 1981. 35 were built, of 100 planned.
    Its empty weight is 110 ton, and max takeoff weight is 275ton.

    Obviously the Pak Ta would be broader, and larger. But if we see what was designed 40 yrs ago, I don't think a 2000kph Pak Ta would be that difficult for Russia to do today.
    Perhaps the solution is to have blended air intakes at the front, with the cargo area behind that.

    The artist's pic shows that sort of idea.

    On a related issue, re the Tu160, I've noticed that it never seems to be photographed near foreign borders. Unlike the Tu95. Perhaps the 160 does have special radar dodging features..?

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    PAK-TA Transport

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:19 am

    Actually a few aircraft have air piped from the engines to the flaps... the technical term is "blown flaps"... it is usually taken from the cool section at the front of the engine and is applied to aircraft that need to operate from short runways...


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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:36 am

    Actually if we look carefully perhaps we are seeing what PAK DA might look like too... imagine splitting the design into two categories... bomber and transport, where the transport comes in three scaled sizes of say 80 tons, 130 tons, and 200 tons, though it would be useful for the 200 ton payload capacity model to be able to carry large external loads like fuel tanks for super heavy space launch systems.

    With the Bomber branch you could have the strategic bomber with a 9 to 15 ton payload and the rest of the payload fuel for extended flight range while a theater bomber with a heavy payload of perhaps 50-60 tons and reduced fuel for operations over Europe and Asia.

    You could even add maritime patrol aircraft, inflight refuelling aircraft, AWACS and JSTARs like aircraft and of course civilian passenger aircraft.

    I rather suspect even supersonic flight would be out of the question initially... just because the engine requirements, though the blown flaps concept is interesting to increase takeoff power/performance...

    I find this very exciting as there were clear gaps in the transport inventory with the An-22 soon to leave service and the An-124 an excellent aircraft but it wont last forever...


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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:04 am

    damn, imagine the export demand for these things- jack up the price to even c-17 levels and it will still sell like hotcakes Twisted Evil

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:41 am

    They finally uploaded the Vimeo vid on youtube.


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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:45 am

    Count on GarryB to guess at a connection between the PAK-DA and PAK-TA. +1 for that Cool

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:15 pm

    kvs wrote:I hope this design gets implemented.  Time to move on in terms of aircraft design.   A lifting body concept is superior to
    anything currently available.  

    Check out the butthurt response by western "journalists":

    http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-next-generation-transport-plane-2015-3

    The only thing absurd are the two retarded clowns who wrote this troll piece and the clowns that hired them.
    Ooh well since it's been a while.

    Russia's proposed new military transport will be a behemoth of an aircraft — assuming such a plane can even fly and Russia is even vaguely serious about actually building it.
    I wonder what these two nitwits would say about the B2 or the B-49 before that. Rolling Eyes

    According to the Kremlin propaganda outfit RT, citing design specifications from Russia's Military-Industrial Commission, the new PAK TA transport will have the improbable ability to achieve supersonic flight while carrying massive payloads. The Kremlin plans to acquire 80 PAK TAs by 2024.

    "Propaganda outfit" really, considering the so-called journalism the "NON-propaganda" outfits of the west demonstrated and continue to demonstrate from 2001 through 2003 and even now and in this very article, i think i'll stick with the "Propaganda outfit".pirat

    Supersonic flight is still up in the air,..... for now.

    But until prototypes of the plane are built and begin flying, there is no telling how well the plane will actually perform or if it is even practical.  
    Considering the current situation with Russia's lack of future super-heavy lift aircraft (which these two idiots clearly aren't even aware of), it would be very practical for Russia to invest in this project and as for performance, it looks like it's gonna be very impressive.

    Russia's fifth-generation fighter, the T-50, has run into design problems. According to the Indian Air Force, the joint Indian-Russian variant of the T-50 still has numerous stealth and engine problems even at a late stage in its development.

    Ok, first of, i wasn't even aware the (2 seater) FGFA was already in flight testing? Suspect

    Second, the article they're quoting links to an old Business Insider or BI article that links to a Business Standard or BS article. Wink
    There complaints are:
    1) Russia's reluctance to share critical design information with India.
    The article doesn't really clarify what design info they're bitching about, just some gibberish about radar coverage.

    2)The fighter's current AL-41F1 (117) engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines.
    For some reason, an upgrade of one of the more reliable and proven engines in Russia is suddenly "inadequate" cuzz it's a "mere upgrade" (to say nothing of the AL-31 being from the SU-27 not MKI) again these guys need to specify WTF they're bitching about.

    3) It is too expensive. Rolling Eyes
    What do they expect for 5th gen FFS, anyway now that the Rafale is out they'll have plenty of cash. Wink

    4) its stealth features badly engineered.
    In what way the stealth is badly engineered is not mentioned anywhere in the article, sound like BS ironically from BS. Wink

    5)India's share to low.
    In what way??

    And the PAK TA presents an even greater challenge. A supersonic plane of its size and cargo capacity — an anticipated 200 tons — could land only on a very long, reinforced runway that may need to be designed specifically for the plane. It would necessitate an astonishingly large fuel load, which would further limit the number of airports from which the aircraft could take off and land. It would also have an enormous wingspan that would make the plane an easy target for enemy forces.
    The article brings up some interesting question, how many runways in Russia are capable of handling this bird, the fuel load thing is obvious BS considering it only has one Turbine engine.

    On a more basic level, who would entrust 200 tons of cargo aboard such an outlandish, experimental aircraft?
    Answer: Everyone, when it's no longer an experimental/prototype aircraft

    It would be an astonishing accomplishment if a prototype ever takes the skies — never mind 80 finished planes.

    For now, the aircraft is at most an aspiration for Russia. It may also just be a propaganda ploy meant to highlight the Kremlin's modernization drive and create the impression that Russia's military-industrial complex possesses technological capabilities beyond its actual capacity.

    Even if the PAK TA may be crude Kremlin psy-ops, the concept art for the new aircraft is still pretty spectacular. Here's what Moscow is claiming about its fanciful superplane of the distant and probably nonexistent future.
    "Propaganda ploy" unlikely, considering the PAK-DA is indeed in development and Russia isn't like the U.S who continuously create the impression that there "military-industrial complex possesses technological capabilities beyond its actual capacity".  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

    Ok, now they're just envious.  Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil

    The PAK-TA is being developed by the Russian aviation company Ilyushin.
    Ilyushin, that's great, Tupolev got the PAK-DA if Ilyushin gets the PAK-TA it would be great.

    The PAK TA's payload capacity is envisioned as being 80 tons more than that of the US' largest cargo plane, the C-5 Galaxy
    Hmmm... sources vary, but seems legit around 135 tons for vanilla C-5 close enough and 142 tons for C-5M.

    RT estimates that a fleet of PAK TA's could carry 400 T-14 Armata heavy tanks. Left unaddressed is why anyone would risk loading 400 tanks into a fleet this ridiculous.
    It's not ridiculous, it's necessary when you're dealing with psychopaths like NATO. attack

    The plane is thought to feature an upper gas turbine as well as twin electrically powered fans. The back of the plane's wings will generate vectored thrust — assuming a single one is ever built.
    Truly envious aren't they. Twisted Evil

    Difference Between Jealousy and Envy wrote:The main difference between envy and jealousy is that envy is the emotion of coveting what someone else has, while jealousy is the emotion related to fear that something you have will be taken away by someone else.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:16 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Sounds like a priority project for Russia

    The retirement of the An-22 Cock class is imminent. Russia has nothing to replace it in the 70-90 ton payload class. It can make do for now with its An-124 fleet but ultimately a replacement must be found.
    The main alternative is a revival of the Il-106 project; however this is a 90s project that has been forgotten and would have to be redrawn, and subsequently developed essentially from scratch. Is it worthwhile?

    The retirement of the An-124 fleet I'm guessing will come sometime in the 2020s. Perhaps they can keep on trucking a 'lil longer, till the early 2030s, but again, it's clear that the 80s built An-124 fleet won't last for too much longer and a replacement must be found for the +100 ton class
    The plan was to start up production of An-124s with the Ukraine, but with the Ukraine crisis this is now in jeapordy. Theoretically, it could still be possible to secure enough of the freefalling Antonov enterprise, to be able to go at it alone; however this depends on many variables, and the Ukrainian regime could still create problems with Russia by means of patents, legal rights and so on.
    The An-124 is an effective, but old design that can possibly be replaced with something more efficient.

    The An-225 was a one-off for the Soviet space program, and officially speaking there haven't been any military requirements for a transport plane with a capacity of this size.
    However, the heavy use and contracting of this plane by militaries world-wide show that there is definately a niche for such aircraft. Moreover, armour and vehicle weight has been steadily increasing for the last several decades. With the introduction of the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang families, each on average heavier than the MBT, BMP and BTR models respectively that preceeded them, it is worth re-examining a possible role for super-heavy transport aircraft in the Russian Air Force.

    A unified transport aircraft family, that will be able to replace the An-22, An-124 and An-225 all at once, is very much a desirable option, and though the cost of development may be large, ultimately it would prove cheaper than having to develop a seperate Il-106 project, restart An-124 production and then figure out a seperate solution later on for the super-heavy class, if it proves neccessary.

    At the moment I think all talk of supersonic, or hypersonic transport aircraft is fantasy, but it should certainly not be ruled out for the future, when propulsion technologies have reached a higher level of maturity.
    For now, the development of a subsonic transport aircraft family with the possibility for redesign for greater speeds in the coming decades, would seem a most prudent course.

    A whole new project would also open the door for multination cooperation on its development; at least on the level of funding and research.
    In no particular order, I can easily imagine the interest of China, India, Brazil, Argentina & Indonesia in such a project.

    Admit it, you just wrote that post for a chance to say An-22 Cock.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:34 pm

    That BI article is BS. No one knows of PAK FA's stealth characteristics other than armchair engineers jpeg impressions. Add to that the two seater isnt even flying yet, and an upgraded engine is no different than US methods and wouldnt even be considered a setback. Sounds like people with littleman syndrom.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  Firebird on Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually if we look carefully perhaps we are seeing what PAK DA might look like too... imagine splitting the design into two categories... bomber and transport, where the transport comes in three scaled sizes of say 80 tons, 130 tons, and 200 tons, though it would be useful for the 200 ton payload capacity model to be able to carry large external loads like fuel tanks for super heavy space launch systems.

    With the Bomber branch you could have the strategic bomber with a 9 to 15 ton payload and the rest of the payload fuel for extended flight range while a theater bomber with a heavy payload of perhaps 50-60 tons and reduced fuel for operations over Europe and Asia.

    You could even add maritime patrol aircraft, inflight refuelling aircraft, AWACS and JSTARs like aircraft and of course civilian passenger aircraft.

    I rather suspect even supersonic flight would be out of the question initially... just because the engine requirements, though the blown flaps concept is interesting to increase takeoff power/performance...

    I find this very exciting as there were clear gaps in the transport inventory with the An-22 soon to leave service and the An-124 an excellent aircraft but it wont last forever...

    Its an intriguing set of designs.
    The key q is what will be built. How will it work. And how will it be used.

    I suppose its a bit like 1 and a bit Tu-160s joined together in weight terms.

    The vid talks about electric fans and gas turbines. It seems there's a battery on board too.
    I'd be surprised if that is the next plan, and not the next plan but one. But who knows.

    We've seen supersonic and biggish size before - Tu 160. We've seen stealth and reasonable size - B2 etc. But we've never seen very big, stealthy AND very fast.

    I know Russia spoke with Boeing about a supersonic 747 sized jet in the early 1990s. But adding stealth and perhaps range is a whole new issue.

    I wonder how stealth works with those fans. And I wonder how the electric fans aspect works.
    Also, I wonder if it will be one huge engine. Again, this seems perculiar, but who knows.

    I'm a little puzzled at the idea the Pak Da is sub sonic now, but the cargo plane... we believe is actually supersonic. Normally, the 2 are the opposite way round.

    Finally, I wonder how much drag the shape would have. And how much stealth. Unlike the B2, it has a tail. And its body, whilst blended is a fair bit wider, and slightly taller.

    Cargo planes have traditionally been considered a bit "boring" amongst mil planes. So, if this is the 21st Century Ru cargo plane, I wonder what other ideas they have up their sleeves...russia

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  Firebird on Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:44 pm

    Clearly, Russian military doctrine is now focussing on ultra rapid reaction. As seen by the waves of snap exercises.

    Russia does have a shortage of airlift equipment AND the slower naval transport.
    With these transport improvements, I wonder how this willaffect Russia's land forces. Will it mean larger forces focussed on global issues. (Its been unable to guarantee some state's security in the past, due to logistics issues).

    Perhaps it could mean higher quality equipment, but being flexible and able to shuttle it from the Kurils, to the Arctic and even off to Africa at lightening speed.

    It could mean the return of genuine allies in Africa and all round the World. Perhaps it will be all part of the new Customs Union. After all, a trade system only works with guarantees on trade stability.

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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  mack8 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:00 pm

    Regardless of other things, think should be pretty certain that the concept we saw in the video (a pretty darn cool one, yes) is subsonic, not only because of the aerodynamic shape but also those electric fans (one single engine turning two fans with their straight intakes AND the craft to supersonic speed? no way). A supersonic transport imo could indeed look something like a larger Tu-160 with or without VG wings, longer and more slender comparative to this CGI, and supersonic optimized intakes for the super-cruise optimized engines, but obviously payload would be reduced for the same size.

    Perhaps the PAK-TA will or will not be built in this form, but the question for the experts would be (and i'm genuinely interested) is this configuration offering better payload, range and cost effectiveness compared to a more orthodox one (like An-124 or An-225)? These are the main parameters for a successful transport isn't it?


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    Re: PAK-TA Special Purpose Transport aircraft

    Post  mack8 on Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:04 pm

    Oh and regarding PAK-DA (allegedly subsonic, remember) and it's possible relation to this concept, i remember now i saw one of Paralay's renderings showing an aircraft fairly similar to a B-2 in configuration, but with wing root embedded intakes just like this CGI has for the electric fans!

    PS: And also, let's not forget the BWB concept we saw in TsAGIs wind tunnel.

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