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    Venezuela crisis

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    Will usa be successful in installing it's puppet

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    Total Votes: 19
    GarryB
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:54 am

    China doesnt grow under communism. China went poor under communism. China developed when it threw communism under the bus and became hypercapitalist.

    China today follows the most extreme form of capitalism we see in the entire world. Workers rights means nothing for them. China throws evrything under the bus for profits.

    Hahahaha... like I said... inbred...

    China is communist to this day.

    Communism does not preclude a capitalist economy... the Soviets under Stalin licence produced all sorts of western technology... the Gatling gun, Ford trucks of all types, the DC-3 transport aircraft was produced as the Li-2, of course there were illegal copies also produced without the proper permission and licence like the sidewinder missile and the B-29/Tu-4 bomber, but then it worked both ways like the Bradley BMP and the F-15 Foxbatski...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:50 am

    China is communist to this day.
    Only in name, since the CCP is the sole ruling body to whom the PLA belongs. The ruling elite preserves its legitimacy by phenomenal success in the economic development, using capitalist methods. The widely dispersed Chinese diaspora, HK & Macao r mostly left alone & r being used for financial links & investments with the rest of the world.
    I would call today's CCP as the nationalist mirror image of the Kuomintang founded "Republic of China" on Taiwan. Even before the Deng reforms, Mao was an Emperor all but in name. https://www.amazon.com/Mao-Story-Jung-Chang/dp/0679746323/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ZWBE8BA82MDHS0MCY552

    Many previous successful rebel leaders & conquerors of China became emperors as well.
    GarryB
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:44 am

    Communism is both a system of government and a culture, the government of the Soviet Union was elected by communist party members so there was voting, but it was more like the US than anything else as there tended to be only two real contenders and it depended on which held which power base as to how they won.

    A contender would need support from one of the power structures... the KGB, the MVD, the military branches, and the various civilian worker organisations.

    If Communists don't trade internationally on the "capitalist" market then the SR-71 would never have flown... it was Soviet Titanium that made it possible.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:11 am

    The Soviet socialist model was in reality a state capitalism wrapped up in the Utopian communist ideology derived from the outdated German Marxism. They achieved a lot but couldn't avoid the implosion in 1991.
    China got rid of the communist ideology, built their "Chinese socialism" & now she has the 2nd largest economy, getting connected to C. Asia, Europe & SE Asia by land, building canals, while getting ready to take on the US in the Indo-Pacific & challenge US maritime "hegemony".
    GarryB
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:26 am

    The Soviet socialist model was in reality a state capitalism wrapped up in the Utopian communist ideology derived from the outdated German Marxism. They achieved a lot but couldn't avoid the implosion in 1991.

    I don't think you can assert that... no two Soviet leaders were the same and they all had a different "ideology".

    What caused its implosion was trying to keep up militarily with all the European and the new American colonial powers, which I would suggest would bankrupt any country and is soon likely to bankrupt the US unless they change course.

    The Chinese, on the other hand have enjoyed western support and investment and have curbed their military growth until they got their economy going.

    Their enormous population means western sanctions are not going to hit them very hard because they have plenty of internal customers to sell to instead of the west... and the currency difference means their products are cheap... which is something western consumerist economies rely on...

    Except now it is coming to a head... how do you get cheap products to the people and also pay those same people a living wage so they can afford a new Iphone every year or two... easy... get all those items they want to buy made in foreign countries by workers earning a fraction of minimum wage...

    But if you move all production jobs overseas what will the locals do to earn a living?
    Hannibal Barca
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:29 am

    What is this delirium? Communism not only refuse capitalism, but furthermore, the principal idea of communism is to undermine the supply and demand principle.  It is a completely paranoid theory.
    Communist political structure is non inherited oligarchy, the very system than Marx tried to undermine. This is what Chinese kept and if applied with meritocracy is very effective,
    more effective than what we call democracy* which requires a majority, broad or representative, and thus is very handicapped system for decision making, especially in open question problems and radical reforms.

    *By the way, the key for democratization is not voting rights but social mobility.
    higurashihougi
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:41 pm

    People usually said Communist China, Communist Russia, Communist Bloc, Vietcong... but in fact the Soviets called itself "socialist" republics, not "communist" republics. China, Vietnam, Cuba... same here. We called ourselves "socialist" bloc, not "communist" bloc.

    Also, the Soviets never claimed that they finish the socialist stage, except in a brief period under Khruschyov when he claimed that he only needed 20 years to build Communism in USSR. That claim was soon rejected after Khruschyov was ousted.

    Building a 100% socialist society is very hard and a 100% communist society is many more times difficult.

    GarryB wrote:I don't think you can assert that... no two Soviet leaders were the same and they all had a different "ideology".

    What caused its implosion was trying to keep up militarily with all the European and the new American colonial powers, which I would suggest would bankrupt any country and is soon likely to bankrupt the US unless they change course.

    My opinion is that the reason why USSR began to decline when their leaders began to deviate from the socialist idea and ethics... begin with Khruschyov, then with Breznhev, and finally under Gorbachyov the Party leader committed high treason and backstabbed the whole USSR.

    It is ironic and also extremely painful to see that, many high-rank officials of USSR at that time are fake communists, they used the name of Marx and Lenin to gain power and authority and when socialist idea was no longer useful for them, they dropped their mask and became the worst enemy of the nation.

    Khruschyov undermined USSR power both internally and externally by his destalinization. He stripped off the working class characteristic of the Communist Party during his interpretation of the Party's role. His hare-brain schemes and hot-headed styles damaged the prestige of the USSR and is one of the reason why the Chinesed disdained him. Khruschyov's policy of overshuffling the officials was considered detrimental.

    Brezhnev on the other hand stubbornly keeping the officials intact... the officials got older and older and become increasingly conservative... that also increase corruption inside the Party and the State because the old officials over-consolidated their power and abused their authority. The uncured illness inside the Party degraded the faith of the people into the idea of socialism which became very devastating under Gorbachyov's rule.

    Not much to say about Gorbachyov and his cronies, such as Yakovlev... they are traitors. They backstabbed the Party. They backstabbed the USSR. They destroyed the greatest socialist state in the world. They crushed the global socialist movement. I can't imagine a suitable punishment for such crimes.

    Hannibal Barca wrote:What is this delirium? Communism not only refuse capitalism, but furthermore, the principal idea of communism is to undermine the supply and demand principle.  It is a completely paranoid theory.
    Communist political structure is non inherited oligarchy, the very system than Marx tried to undermine. This is what Chinese kept and if applied with meritocracy is very effective,
    more effective than what we call democracy* which requires a majority, broad or representative, and thus is very handicapped system for decision making, especially in open question problems and radical reforms.

    *By the way, the key for democratization is not voting rights but social mobility.

    Actually Marx was not the one who invented communism. Ideas of communism originated from the dawn of civilizations, many civilizations described an ideal society where there is no class and there is full communal ownership.

    And the aims of Marxists are:

    (1) the means of production have to be given back to their rightful owners, that is the working class.

    (2) the funds, capitals, labour,... of the society has to be used to improve the mode of production. Which means: increase the level and the effeciency of the labour force; increase the technological level of the tools, guarantee the fair redistribution of products and production means, and maintain a production relationship which favors the working people.

    (3) in order to achieve these goal, the working class has to be the absolute ruler of the society. The socialist state is born to serve the ones who work, not the parasites, not the bloodsuckers, not the criminals.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:01 pm

    Their greatest mistake was not following/implementing/keeping Stolypin reforms, NEP & the collectivization of agriculture, leading to loss of production, food shortages/famines, & loss of population in the Ms while trying to catch up with the West by industrialization. If NEP started by Lenin lasted a few decades, Russia today would be the #1 or #2 economy in the World.
    GarryB
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:44 am

    Building a 100% socialist society is very hard and a 100% communist society is many more times difficult.

    Has real democracy ever existed anywhere except on a pirate ship?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:04 am

    The Iroquois & other Native American tribes had more democracy, & they influenced the 13 American Colonies to form a Union that later emulated the Roman Republican form of government, a slave owning plutocracy calling itself a democracy. The Civil War that followed was about preserving a Union, not abolishing slavery per se.
    Statistically, democracies in Europe never lasted more than 240 years.
    The Greeks had it before Alexander, but after the Roman empire split, the Eastern half continued as the Byzantine Empire.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text)
    higurashihougi
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:30 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The Iroquois & other Native American tribes had more democracy, & they influenced the 13 American Colonies to form a Union that later emulated the Roman Republican form of government, a slave owning plutocracy calling itself a democracy. The Civil War that followed was about preserving a Union, not abolishing slavery per se.
    Statistically, democracies in Europe never lasted more than 240 years.
    The Greeks had it before Alexander, but after the Roman empire split, the Eastern half continued as the Byzantine Empire.

    Ancient democracy couldn't exist beyond the village/town/city level.

    Greek states were actually an enlarged and complicated form of a village. At that small scale of population, some sort of democracy was plausible. Although only a very small top tier of the population enjoyed such privileges. When the Greeks and Romans began to build a huge centralized empire, democracy ceased to exists.

    Greek democracy in a smaller scale was not unfamiliar in the East... In Vietnam, each village elected its own governmental bodies, and there were village assemblies at the communal temple. Of course the village governments were put under the authority and supervision of the monarch's central government, although a fair degree of autonomy is maintained (Vietnamese has an idiom "monarch's laws can't win over village's rules").

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Their greatest mistake was not following/implementing/keeping Stolypin reforms, NEP & the collectivization of agriculture, leading to loss of production, food shortages/famines, & loss of population in the Ms while trying to catch up with the West by industrialization. If NEP started by Lenin lasted a few decades, Russia today would be the #1 or #2 economy in the World.

    The aim of agricultural collectivization was to implement large-scale manufacture, by combining the capital and facilities of many people.

    During the process at this or that point the manufacture has to be up-scaled and the capital and facilities are concentrated to be mobilized for grandiose projects. The problem here is how people mobilize and concentrate such an amount of capital.

    What the USSR did was very benign and much more civilized than, for example, the Brits, they British aristocrats forcefully confiscated the communal land and villagers became landless. In the capitalist West, capital concentration happened in quite a savage way, when the bigger animals just eat out smaller preys and became bigger and bigger, until they monopolized the economy and crushed all potential competitors... hey, wait, did the West usually claims that only they have free trade and market competition ?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:48 am

    In the USSR, most produce the city dwellers bought in the markets came from small private plots the kolkhosniks (collective farm workers) were allowed to have. If a society can't feed itself well, it's not sustainable. Gorbachev was an agronomist & a lawyer by training & new & the real economic situation, hence his Perestroika.
    China also had village communes but had to abolish them to feed its population; now it's mostly food self-sufficient. I buy their farm raised fish all the time!
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:00 pm

    Things are heating up. I personally would not give damn if Maduro has to go.
    PapaDragon
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:10 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Things are heating up. I personally would not give damn if Maduro has to go.

    Agreed

    That whole crew takes the cake for incompetence

    Seriously, not a single hint of diversification from oil

    And how the hell do you run out of food in Central America with access to ocean?
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:11 pm

    ... and tropical climate on top of that. DPRK is in better shape, Cuba is too. Neither have oil, one has a much worse clomate.
    GarryB
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:24 pm

    Things are heating up. I personally would not give damn if Maduro has to go.

    Well I disagree... the US clearly wants Maduro out and you can bet your ass it is not because they care about democracy or the Venezuelan people or any bullshit like that...

    The fact that the US wants this guy out of office is reason enough to fight for him to stay.

    BTW Venezuela is not a communist country and the food industry has not been nationalised... if there is a problem with food production or distribution then it is an artificial problem created to achieve political ends... capitalism fails a population again... no surprise...
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:33 pm

    This time more is at stake than just geopolitical alignment. A different president, even a US-backed one, is still better than Maduro & Co. It doesn't take a genius to understand what has happened to that country and what will happen if they keep ruling.
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Things are heating up. I personally would not give damn if Maduro has to go.


    The fact that the US wants this guy out of office is reason enough to fight for him to stay....

    His incompetence is reason enough to drop him. Unless Russia wants the entire Venezuelan population to despise them for helping keep this idiot in power.

    Not that it matters in the long run given the location but still...

    GarryB wrote:BTW Venezuela is not a communist country and the food industry has not been nationalised... if there is a problem with food production or distribution then it is an artificial problem created to achieve political ends... capitalism fails a population again... no surprise...

    If you have food then communism is best way to end up with no food.

    If you don't have food then communism is best way to starve to death.

    Venezuela doesn't have food so it's best not to tempt fate because it will end horribly as always.
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:07 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Things are heating up. I personally would not give damn if Maduro has to go.


    The fact that the US wants this guy out of office is reason enough to fight for him to stay....

    His incompetence is reason enough to drop him. Unless Russia wants the entire Venezuelan population to despise them for helping keep this idiot in power.

    Not that it matters in the long run given the location but still...

    The fact that the US wants this guy out of office means, the oppositions have plenty of US's cronies who are eager to sell Venezuela to the US rather than fix the problems of the country.

    I am not a hardcore fan of the Chavismo but then if Maduro have to step down then you have to seriously think about who will replace him. Somebody who are able to fix the issues, not someone who are controlled by CIA.
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  par far on Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:15 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:This time more is at stake than just geopolitical alignment. A different president, even a US-backed one, is still better than Maduro & Co. It doesn't take a genius to understand what has happened to that country and what will happen if they keep ruling.


    A US backed one is not better, the problem is not Maduro and Co., it is the US, meddling in Venezuela. If a US backed puppet comes into power, do you really think that the lives of the people will improve? No, they won't improve, it will get worse, as the puppet will just "give" all of Venezuela's oil and other resources to the US.

    When Maduro was elected, the people saw what a US backed puppet would do, so that is they elected Maduro.
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  par far on Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:20 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Things are heating up. I personally would not give damn if Maduro has to go.


    The fact that the US wants this guy out of office is reason enough to fight for him to stay....

    His incompetence is reason enough to drop him. Unless Russia wants the entire Venezuelan population to despise them for helping keep this idiot in power.

    Not that it matters in the long run given the location but still...

    GarryB wrote:BTW Venezuela is not a communist country and the food industry has not been nationalised... if there is a problem with food production or distribution then it is an artificial problem created to achieve political ends... capitalism fails a population again... no surprise...

    If you have food then communism is best way to end up with no food.

    If you don't have food then communism is best way to starve to death.

    Venezuela doesn't have food so it's best not to tempt fate because it will end horribly as always.


    Maduro is not incompetence, you have US and their Allies, ganging up on the Maduro government, plus you have all the propaganda machines going against him.

    If Maduro goes, Russia will lose the only Ally it has in South America, it will lose the investments it has in Venezuela, plus the military base that they might have gotten.
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  par far on Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:23 pm

    "Venezuela breaking diplomatic relations with US after its attempt to stage coup - President Maduro."

    https://www.rt.com/news/449542-maduro-addresses-supporters-us-guaido/


    I wish we had a better idea of what is happening on the ground.
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  BKP on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:11 am

    Double post mishap


    Last edited by BKP on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:14 am

    par far wrote:"Venezuela breaking diplomatic relations with US after its attempt to stage coup - President Maduro."
    https://www.rt.com/news/449542-maduro-addresses-supporters-us-guaido/


    I wish we had a better idea of what is happening on the ground.


    I got you covered dude:





    Paging Doctor Vann to explain to us how agriculture is a waste of time and how spending every last cent on weapons is the way to go Cool

    Maybe Russia can send Venezuelans some solid rocket fuel to eat instead of steaks? They can use hypergolycs as gravy lol1

    Looks like keeping their distance was smart move by Russia after all
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    Re: Venezuela crisis

    Post  BKP on Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:16 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The fact that the US wants this guy out of office is reason enough to fight for him to stay.

    100% This. We should all know the history by now. Vassalage to the wharf rats in Washington will not improve the lives of the vast majority of Venezuelans. Plus they'll be, you know... vassals.

    The military has declared for Maduro. Following closely the Maidan playbook, Washington and "Putin's puppet" Trump are threatening against the use of violence, "or else." We'll be seeing where this goes pretty quickly, I figure.

    Oh, just found out, Guaido is a 35-year-old punk who did his graduate studies at GW University, a major CIA recruitment station. Anyone still want this asshole in there?

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