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    Failed Tanks

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    flamming_python

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    T-64 Failed Tank

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:18 pm

    This discussion about the T-64 calls for an episode of Failed Tanks:

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    flamming_python

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:10 pm

    Pugnax wrote:The T-55 gets a bad rap for being vulnerable...its an old platform but deserves a place of honour.Morozovs T-55AG would be a great asser in countries where fire support is required and a threat by western powers unlikely.Surprisingly a large number of 55s that were knocked out in GW1 were repairable whereas 72s were obliterated.It might simply be that the 72s were overkilled but the old 55 soldiers on.
    The T-72s that were unrecoverable were overwhelmingly Lions of Babylon or Saddams. These are downgrades of downgrades of downgrades.
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    Pugnax

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    T-55

    Post  Pugnax on Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:20 pm

    I have read the accounts of how tragic a down grade they were.The glacis wasnt even hardened armour on many of them.Saddam really cut corners and deceived his own troops.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:40 pm

    That's not even the beggining or end of it

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    Pugnax

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    T-55

    Post  Pugnax on Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:48 am

    Thanks for the video,it supports what i have read about Saddams army.T-55 however is still one of my favourites.The 72 will be around just as long,a tough ,reliable beast of war.
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    BlackArrow

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  BlackArrow on Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:25 pm

    Still, a lot of Syria's T-72s are been knocked out quiet easily today - or even completely obliterated by internal explosions. We also have the example of Georgia's T-72s in the August 2008 war. I think it's accepted that the basic T-72 design has issues to deal with.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:47 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:Still, a lot of Syria's T-72s are been knocked out quiet easily today - or even completely obliterated by internal explosions. We also have the example of Georgia's T-72s in the August 2008 war. I think it's accepted that the basic T-72 design has issues to deal with.
    Not really.

    Later T-72 variants held out very well in Chechnya; with some even taking dozens of RPG and ATGM hits from a variety of models
    T-72s in Syria aren't doing bad either from the reports; many are taking many multiple hits. But when one does get knocked out or suffer a catastrophic explosion; it's video is posted of course.

    Georgia's T-72s were knocked out because they lost the engagement. You know, how in any battle how you have those who win, and those who lose. If you look at the loser's equipment, it's generally either captured, knocked out or escapes.
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    TR1

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  TR1 on Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:23 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:Still, a lot of Syria's T-72s are been knocked out quiet easily today - or even completely obliterated by internal explosions. We also have the example of Georgia's T-72s in the August 2008 war. I think it's accepted that the basic T-72 design has issues to deal with.
    Any other tank of its vintage has the same issues with ammo detonation.
    Actually even Leo-2 would burn just fine if hit from flanks like most Syrian T-72s were.

    It's not really an issue as much as legacy design without upgrades + being shot up from flanks.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:05 am

    It also comes down to the way it is used as well... If the Syrian soldiers want to load up with a full load of 40 main gun rounds then only 22 will fit in the under floor autoloader... the rest have to go in the crew compartment... which means they are vulnerable to penetration and fires.

    Used correctly they are as safe as any other tank of its era.

    It is logically pretty obvious... fill the crew compartment with highly explosive propellent with combustible shell cases and any penetration that involves hot burning material will set off the ammo, which in a confined space will of course be devastating.


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    BlackArrow

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  BlackArrow on Sun Nov 17, 2013 1:11 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Later T-72 variants held out very well in Chechnya; with some even taking dozens of RPG and ATGM hits from a variety of models
    I don't believe that - fantastic claims require fantastic evidence.
    How do you explain any tank being able to survive 'dozens' of hits from antitank weapons?

    T-72s in Syria aren't doing bad either from the reports; many are taking many multiple hits. But when one does get knocked out or suffer a catastrophic explosion; it's video is posted of course.
    I'm not saying that the T-72 is not an effective weapon system - but it is just a tank.

    TR1 wrote:Any other tank of its vintage has the same issues with ammo detonation.
    Actually even Leo-2 would burn just fine if hit from flanks like most Syrian T-72s were.

    It's not really an issue as much as legacy design without upgrades + being shot up from flanks.
    I can agree with that.
    The T-72 is from the same era as the Leopard 1, Chieftain  or M60. They usually wouldn't survive a direct hit from RPG-29 either...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:34 am

    I don't believe that - fantastic claims require fantastic evidence.
    How do you explain any tank being able to survive 'dozens' of hits from antitank weapons?
    Most anti tank weapons are not rifle accurate... they can manage hits on tank sized targets but there are plenty of places you can hit a target where even full penetration makes no difference.

    Equally a warhead that penetrates 600mm of RHA wont necessarily penetrate anywhere near that thickness of armour if it hits at the wrong angle or if the fuse doesn't go off at just the right time... armour is angled to improve its performance but you can rotate the armour in 3 dimensions to acerbate that effect further... the tank might have crew kit on it that might dud the fuse of the incoming weapon.

    Very simple if one missile fails to penetrate then ten more hits with the same missile type are not any more likely to penetrate either.

    The reason ERA is so useful is that one hit might take out a block or two but very few AT weapons are accurate enough to allow that empty area to be targeted accurately enough to exploit that.

    On a moving target even a very accurate weapon would have serious trouble.



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    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:18 am

    I reckon the T55 is a pretty nifty tank. The Iraqi Army still use (Type 69) and I believe they will continue having it for at least another 10 years... if not longer for training.

    flamming_python wrote:That's not even the beggining or end of it

    so many inaccuracies there...

    war started 1980 not 1979

    Iraqi T62s smashed Iran's chieftains in 1980-81. Iranian armour at no point in the war posed a serious threat to Iraq. (I would say this was the main weakness for the Iraqis, their experience from the Iran war did NOT adequately prepare them for a "proper war" against the US).

    Iraq already had T72s before the war in 1980 (soviet built).

    95% of the Iraqi T72s were manufactured in Soviet Union / Poland /Czechoslovakia.

    The Assad Babil was a licence produced variant from Buman Labedy, and was in fact assembled from Kits starting in 1988 (i.e. after the war with Iran was already over).

    Iraq did import armour plates as well as having a specialist armour plate facility at Taji built by Germans in the 1980s. and for example they built the "enigma" armour for the T55/Type69 which was IMMUNE to M1A1 shots..

    The T72M1/Assad Babil is based on a T72A not B... and the Iraqis, after buying weapons from around the world for 50+ years were well aware of the difference from the "export" version and "domestic" version (which they weren't happy with, but tried to improvise their own upgrades separately to plug the gap), e.g. imported night vision equipment from Belgium, Dazzler for ATGMs etc...

    The T72M1s Iraq had laser range finder, ballistic computer and Image Intensifier (and IR lamp like all T72s). But yes, they did not have the gun launched missiles. and at no point was Iran, Iraq, USA or anyone else under any impression of Iraq having anything like a T72B...

    and yes the iraqi made ammo was truly dire. BUT the example of Training APFSDS round is from a SINGLE tank the US captured near an Iraqi training ground in 1991. Iraqis did indeed operate normal APFSDS rounds for their tanks. They're not THAT dumb!

    as to why the Iraqis continued using the older T72s... they couldn't get anything better! simple. If they could get 1000 Challenger 2 tanks and some Leopard 2A4s, I'm sure they would have been more than happy to equip their armoured divisions with them (and even saddam the imbecile was aware of that).

    Thing is none of the tanks available on the world market (past or present) truly meets the needs of countries like Iraq... except the Merkava Very Happy
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:15 am

    sheytanelkebir wrote:
    Thing is none of the tanks available on the world market (past or present) truly meets the needs of countries like Iraq... except the Merkava Very Happy
    if by that you mean you mean tanks that are best used as static pillboxes, hull-down behind couple of feet of earth and sand then yes, merk is best. However if you want to bring the fight to an equal enemy, then T-72/90s are excellent in that regard. However if you are up against superpowers, then you would need armata mbts. Of course tanks alone would be nothing if they are used on their own and without skills.
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    Pugnax

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    t-55

    Post  Pugnax on Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:11 am

    Merkava is undoubtedly a very solid design and as collegeboy says is a very defensive oriented construct.It also has never operated in an area where air superiority was contested.Mobility and combined arms proficiency are key to success.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:06 am

    Ironic that the CIA Stooge Shah of Iran in the 1970s paid for the Challenger to be designed and built with the new Chobham armour.

    If the Iranians had waited a couple of years after 1979 to overthrow him they might have had a few hundred Challengers in service instead of Chieftains.

    Would have been a bit ironic the best tank in the ME being Iranian...


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    TR1

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  TR1 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:46 am

    Merkava has the most freaking vulnerable engine of any tank in the world.

    Most overrated design IMO.
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    Deep Throat

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  Deep Throat on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:05 am

    GarryB wrote:The reason ERA is so useful is that one hit might take out a block or two but very few AT weapons are accurate enough to allow that empty area to be targeted accurately enough to exploit that.
    But Garry , if the adversary is armed with the RPG 32 the T 72 , T 90 , Merkava or M1A2 will not be able to survive .

    For that matter even an APS like Arena on a T 90 cannot protect it from an RPG 32 .

    I suspect even the FGM 148 Javelin  if it hits directly , can cause un acceptable damage to any modern day MBT .
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    Pugnax

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    T-55

    Post  Pugnax on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:33 am

    Merkava is also the most crew survivable tank in the world...on a frontal hit.
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    runaway

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  runaway on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:45 am

    Deep Throat wrote:
    For that matter even an APS like Arena on a T 90 cannot protect it from an RPG 32 .
    .
    Why not, nothing magical about RPG-32!?

    " Arena system was primarily designed to defeat threats such as the rocket propelled grenade and the anti-tank missile, including newer anti-tank missiles with longer ranges.[11] The active protection system can protect against missiles fired from both infantry carried rocket launchers and from helicopters, which attack the vehicle directly or by overflying it"
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    Deep Throat

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  Deep Throat on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:07 pm

    runaway wrote:
    Why not, nothing magical about RPG-32!?

    " Arena system was primarily designed to defeat threats such as the rocket propelled grenade and the anti-tank missile, including newer anti-tank missiles with longer ranges.[11] The active protection system can protect against missiles fired from both infantry carried rocket launchers and from helicopters, which attack the vehicle directly or by overflying it"
    RPG 32 was designed keeping APS in mind . Israeli Merkavas armed with Trophy APS have been hit by RPG 32 .

    Active protection systems such as ARENA-E, Drozd and Trophy defeat anti-armor munitions by destroying them before they reach their target. The RPG 32's precursor round acts as a false target, tricking the target's APS into engaging it, allowing the main round a clear path into the target, while the APS is stuck in the 0.2-0.4 second delay it needs to start its next engagement.
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    runaway

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  runaway on Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:11 pm

    Deep Throat wrote:
    Active protection systems such as ARENA-E, Drozd and Trophy defeat anti-armor munitions by destroying them before they reach their target. The RPG 32's precursor round acts as a false target, tricking the target's APS into engaging it, allowing the main round a clear path into the target, while the APS is stuck in the 0.2-0.4 second delay it needs to start its next engagement.
    Hm are you sure? I thought RPG-32 used ordinary tandem warhead, just as Kornet. As Kornet destroyed Merkavas it suggest Trophy wasnt installed or didnt work as supposed.
    RPG-30 has precursor round, perhaps the new Kornets and RPG-32 have also?

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    TR1

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  TR1 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:07 pm

    Pugnax wrote:Merkava is also the most crew survivable tank in the world...on a frontal hit.
    No more survivable than M1A2, Leo2A5, T-90AM, etc etc etc. if we are talking about frontal engagements.

    It's not like the engine is behind a thick array...that's the problem...the front hull is not strong at all.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:28 am

    Merkava is also the most crew survivable tank in the world...on a frontal hit.
    Personally I am not so sure.

    A large heavy vehicle engine is not made of hardened metals like armour so despite it being a large lump of metal it really doesn't equate to that much better protection...and it also places a large hot noisy object in the front of the tank that increases the IR signature and introduces flammable fluids into the path of incoming enemy ammo.

    But Garry , if the adversary is armed with the RPG 32 the T 72
    It has the same anti armour warhead as the RPG-7 and RPG-29. A 105mm calibre weapon.

    The RPG-28 has a more powerful 125mm calibre warhead.

    RPG-30 has precursor round, perhaps the new Kornets and RPG-32 have also?
    Ahh, I think you are both talking about the RPG-31 with two rockets launched almost simultaneously.


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    runaway

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  runaway on Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:04 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Ahh, I think you are both talking about the RPG-31 with two rockets launched almost simultaneously.
    Nope
    "The RPG-30 shares a close resemblance with the RPG-27 in that it is a man-portable, disposable anti-tank rocket launcher with a single shot capacity. Unlike the RPG-27 however, there is a smaller diameter precursor round in a smaller side barrel tube, in addition to the main round in the main tube."

    And tandem warhead is not the same Depp throat, so RPG-32 and Kornet did destroy Merkavas in 2006, before APS Trophy was installed.

    "On March 1, 2011, stationed near the Gaza border, a Merkava MK IV equipped with the trophy system foiled a missile attack aimed toward it and became the first operational success of the trophy active defense system"

    Maybe now its a different game.

    But since Trophy costs some S600.000 it wont be fitted to all tanks, perhaps only those assigned to local hotspots like Gaza.


    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Failed Tanks

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:07 pm

    APS is the new name of the game. problem with recyclying old hulls like the T55 is that the cost of the hull becomes a negligible part of the overall system cost once you factor in all the modern gizmos.

    I reckon the best use for the T55 hulls is in cheap ARV/Heavy APC. mods that don't cost the earth, and thus the original hull / tracks / engine will retain a decent % of the overall value of the end vehicle.

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