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    ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

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    d_taddei2

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:59 pm

    whats peoples views on

    zsu-23-4M (MANPAD) upgrade
    zu-23-2M1 (radar and fire control upgrade)
    zu-23-2M1 (as above with added Igla missiles)
    zu-23-2-ZOM1 (as above but Igla missiles replaced with strella 10 missiles)

    i actually think if you already have zu-23-2 & zsu-23-4 that there decent upgrades especially the zu-23-2 if mounted on truck, MT-LB, typhoon family, vodnik, bulat, tigr etc. and if upgraded using verba even better.

    these upgrade systems could be applied to other existing systems such as zpu-1/2/4, S-60, 61-k, zsu-57-2, KS-30, KS-19, 52-K, and all these systems can be mounted on a variety of vehicles, the last three systems Iran already has a solution to these the Sa-ir is based on the KS-19 100mm self loading, radar controlled could easily be applied to other systems and add the additional missiles. this would greatly improve short range capabilities of armed forces although some of these systems range beyond 10km upto 15km which pretty decent range. and could a cheaper alternative to buying completely new systems. And this is more aimed at those who already have the base systems or an armed forces looking for cheap short range air defence systems. And of course any MANPAD could be used doesn't have to be new systems if they already have Sa-7/Sa-14/Sa-16/Sa-18,or any other MANPAD can be used.
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    GarryB

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:53 pm

    I don't see anything wrong with upgrading those older vehicles, but the 23mm cannon was replaced by 30mm for lots of good reasons that are still relevant.

    Also MANPADS lack range and are not very cheap... if you want to add some missiles then the Kornet-EM is one interesting option to allow engagement out to 10km with HE Frag rounds, or the SOSNA-R would be even better as it also has a 10km range and the same laser beam riding guidance, but has the enormous benefit of being a two stage missile with a booster stage that accelerates it to very high speed... instead of taking almost a minute to get to 10km it takes about 12 seconds...

    The other bonus is that the Kornet and the SOSNA are relatively cheap.
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    George1

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:39 am

    Mobile Gun Mount SAMUM Shown at Army-2018 Forum

    The Podolsk Mechanical Plant brought the mobile multipurpose artillery gun SAMUM to the Army-2018 forum. Designers say it is the kind of artillery the future belongs to.

    The presented car is equipped with antiaircraft mount ZU-23/30M1-4. It is designed for protection of assets from assault aircraft, helicopters and UAVs acting at low and ultra-low altitudes. The antiaircraft mount can also hit the light-armored ground targets in limited visibility conditions. The mount can fire at the targets in automatic, semi-automatic and manual modes.

    The module is mounted on the all-wheeled driven armored rover. To turn at 180°C, it only needs a clear space of 11 meters in radius. The mount can be controlled even by one operator, by changing the driver's seat and the passenger’s seat equipped with the screen and the fire remote control system.

    "I think this is a great advantage. Army is more and more interested in convenient and safe warfare methods", Vladimir Chizhov, director of design bureau at the Podolsk Mechanical Plant told Mil.Press Today.

    The vehicle is protected by class 3 armor. It stands machinegun or sniper rifle bullets. According to designers, the armor can be optionally reinforced, but in this case SAMUM may become heavier and less maneuverable.





    http://mil.today/2018/23111/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=rss&utm_campaign=miltoday
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:56 pm

    George1 wrote:Mobile Gun Mount SAMUM Shown at Army-2018 Forum

    The Podolsk Mechanical Plant brought the mobile multipurpose artillery gun SAMUM to the Army-2018 forum. Designers say it is the kind of artillery the future belongs to.

    The presented car is equipped with antiaircraft mount ZU-23/30M1-4. It is designed for protection of assets from assault aircraft, helicopters and UAVs acting at low and ultra-low altitudes. The antiaircraft mount can also hit the light-armored ground targets in limited visibility conditions. The mount can fire at the targets in automatic, semi-automatic and manual modes.

    The module is mounted on the all-wheeled driven armored rover. To turn at 180°C, it only needs a clear space of 11 meters in radius. The mount can be controlled even by one operator, by changing the driver's seat and the passenger’s seat equipped with the screen and the fire remote control system.

    "I think this is a great advantage. Army is more and more interested in convenient and safe warfare methods", Vladimir Chizhov, director of design bureau at the Podolsk Mechanical Plant told Mil.Press Today.

    The vehicle is protected by class 3 armor. It stands machinegun or sniper rifle bullets. According to designers, the armor can be optionally reinforced, but in this case SAMUM may become heavier and less maneuverable.





    http://mil.today/2018/23111/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=rss&utm_campaign=miltoday


    I like it obviously for export and at least crew are now protected and can have the upgrades liked added manpads. Could be useful for convoy protection as well.

    As u mentioned a while ago a single 30mm gun version with manpads would be even better. But this is likely aimed at those forces using zu- 23-2 already


    The good thing about this remotely controlled mount is that it could be mounted on anything bmp/btr/mtlb/typhoon/tigr/bpm/vodnik/trucks/small ships
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    GarryB

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:46 am

    Previously the Soviets used the Zu-23 system on the flat bed of a truck, or on the top of an APC, but this seems to be better in terms of it being fully remote control so no exposed gunners, with some small arms protection for the crew.

    The fact that it is on the back of a vehicle means it should be highly mobile too... able to roll into a position... fire a few bursts and then drive away to another position... which should further improve safety and impact on the battlefield.

    Can't really see what optics it has, but as it is vehicle mounted I would have changed the belt feed system so that it carried rather more ready to fire rounds... perhaps large ammo bins either side of the gun and lower it a bit...

    Maybe even add a water cooling system for the barrels...

    The seats next to the guns seem to still be in place, which would probably be fine in the manual operation of the system.

    I must say that a twin 30mm version would be more effective, with better range and hitting power... and also the option of air burst ammo that would be particularly effective against UAVs and other small point targets that are otherwise hard to hit.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:42 pm


    Air burst ammo and MANPADS are redundant here

    Let's not kid ourselves, this thing is made for removing infantry from existence not aircraft
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:58 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Air burst ammo and MANPADS are redundant here

    Let's not kid ourselves, this thing is made for removing infantry from existence not aircraft

    Basically a gucci version of what rebels and SAA have been using. Making it look more professional and better armour and no gunner exposed hey why not its proved it's worth in syria iraq Libya
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    Isos

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:07 pm

    They could have improved the munition capacity.the two boxes looks small for 23mm rounds.
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    Hole

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  Hole on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:45 pm

    50 rounds per box.
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    Isos

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:31 pm

    Hole wrote:50 rounds per box.

    What is the rate of firing ? This is really nothing. It's not a WW2 manned system. It is all automized, the guy only push buttons. They could put easily a big box with 500 rounds on that thing and no need to recharge every 2 minutes. Specially if there are many targets.
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    GarryB

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:29 am

    Air burst ammo and MANPADS are redundant here

    Let's not kid ourselves, this thing is made for removing infantry from existence not aircraft

    It says in the description that this system is intended to be used against low flying aircraft, helicopters, and UAVs and also ground targets.


    For the latter two roles air burst ammo offers the best performance as it does not require a direct hit to damage the target... airbursting shells over enemy troops or amongst UAVs is vastly more effective than trying to hit small targets directly...

    Basically a gucci version of what rebels and SAA have been using. Making it look more professional and better armour and no gunner exposed hey why not its proved it's worth in syria iraq Libya

    Something Russian troops can use on Russian air fields with much better accuracy and greater protection for the troops using it... while being rather cheap and simple and multi purpose at the same time.

    They could have improved the munition capacity.the two boxes looks small for 23mm rounds.

    Agree... 100 rounds would be plenty for ground targets as you would only fire in very short bursts, but for aerial targets you would fire rather more ammo... so bigger ammo bins and perhaps water cooled barrels...

    What is the rate of firing ?

    The rate of fire is 800-1,000 rpm per barrel normally... so 12-16rps per barrel.

    Against ground targets normally a fraction of a second burst is used however...

    It really comes down to what sort of automation there actually is... does it have a laser range finder that calculates trajectory and aim points and the gunner just fires, or is it manually aimed?
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    LMFS

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  LMFS on Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:49 am

    Shilka-M4 – a deep modernization of legendary Soviet anti-aircraft guns

    http://tehnoomsk.ru/node/3383
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  d_taddei2 on Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:12 pm

    LMFS wrote:Shilka-M4 – a deep modernization of legendary Soviet anti-aircraft guns

    http://tehnoomsk.ru/node/3383

    Explains more about what was upgraded which is good thanks.

    This upgrade still makes it useful and a good option for those already operating and also gives Russia a chance to sell old stocks of zsu-23-4 with the upgrade. Not every country can afford Pantsir. And Russia’s tunguska will eventually be put into reserve once replaced by Pantsir. Of course they could by tunguska but for not much more money you can get Pantsir but there's a big difference in price between in having upgradeS done to zsu -23-4 or even buying upgraded zsu -23-4 than Pantsir. But capabilities are big difference as well. Zsu -23-4 upgraded would only be for export to poorer nations or sold as upgrades unless a country wanted to increase short range AD but without spending too much.

    If fact Russia has many options for short range AD at budget prices.

    Sa-16/sa-18/sa-24 manpads
    Dhigit system (double manpad)
    Strelets (multiple manpads)
    Sa-13
    Sa-8
    Zsu -23-4 upgraded
    Zu-23 upgraded and can be mounted

    And slightly higher in price Sonsa R.
    You also have various manpad systems mounted on tigr and vodnik the latter having an additional guided 14.5mm gun.

    So budget market is pretty well covered for short range AD.
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    GarryB

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:48 am

    I don't completely agree... this system seems to be about mobility and fire power... against many battlefield targets 23mm cannon shells would be very effective... if you look at a tank division, or even a light special forces attack team most of the personel and equipment would be vulnerable to 23mm cannon shells most of the time.

    I mean most MRAPs and Humvees would be shredded by this gun, not to mention the light high speed dune buggies Special Forces teams love to operate in around the world in... starting in WWII with the jeeps covered in MGs through to modern light fast vehicles covered in machine guns... well these new ZU-23-2 vehicles are protected from machinegun rounds, though likely not HMG rounds, but its ammo would be effective to much greater distances against soft armour...

    You don't need a Pantsir for every convoy and probably couldn't afford to anyway... but imagine a few of these vehicles scattered through a convoy to respond to an ambush... especially if the rear end is covered in a light Tarp that hides the gun... a push of a button and it collapse and your merry band of 20 guys with assault rifles and LMGs that was going to come in a shoot up those trucks and then disappear might disappear in a red mist much sooner than you expected...

    The fact that it pretty much uses an unmodified ZU-23-2 mount including seats and original ammo boxes suggests it could be low cost for export, but I would suspect the concept and design could be applied to a wide range of vehicles including Tigr or Vodnik if that is still a thing...

    Some sort of arrangement where the guns pop up and give full 360 degree fire power with much larger capacity ammo bins and decent optics would be a rather useful vehicle platform. but then you are adding cost and complexity I suppose.

    For the Russians it might be more suitable in the more common 30mm calibre or perhaps even in 23x115mm calibre (note the above system is a very high velocity AA round in the 23x152mm round)... perhaps they could even go with the naval 30mm gatling guns like the AK-306, which as a rate of fire of between 300rpm to about 1,000 rpm which means you can fire a lot of ammo before the gun has overheating problems...
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    eehnie

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  eehnie on Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:13 am

    There is a modernization of the SA-19 2S6 Tunguska to use Pantsir missiles. It is just the upgrade needed for this system to make it on par of the best modern systems.

    The ZSU-23-4 is still a useful system for Russia, even without missiles to fire, the weapon is very useful as BMPT with an air defense component, while the number of modern BMPTs grow. And fairly more powerful than the SAMUM with ZU-23-2 mounted.

    Less powerfull than the ZSU-23-4, and as consequence likely to leave earlier the Russian Armed Forces, would be the BTR-ZD (variant of the BTR-D with ZU-23-2 and MANPADS), but also better than the SAMUM with ZU-23-2.



    No need to export the ZSU-23-4.
    The BTR-ZD variant of the BTR-D to export when the ZU-23-2 in other configurations be finished.
    Instead, the ZU-23-2 as independent weapon and in other configurations would be on exhaustion, if not totally exhausted at this point.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:02 am

    I use to think the btr-zd mount sat oddly high on it. I would imagine that they slowly being replaced with a newer variant mounted on bmd-4.

    The zsu-23-4 could as I've mentioned before be used as a ground support vehicle in a bmpt style but turret armour would need upgraded and you could remove radar etc to compensate for increased weight of armour upgrade and add caged armour. A AGS system it wouldn't necessarily need ATGW if this worked in conjunction with the actual bmpt so you could have a few bmpt aided by zsu -23-4 bmpt version. But it would be likely that Russia would offer this concept as export or as upgrade to t-55 users. The zsu-57-2 proved quite effective at ground support role. If you could seal the turret and make it self loading unmanned turret with caged armour and add AGS, 4 konkurs or AT-6 (as a cheaper alternative to kornet) and you would have a decent bmpt type vehicle armed with self loading twin 57mm guns, AGS, konkurs/AT-6 upgraded armour and unmanned turret with high elevation and a good way of using up zsu-57-2 sitting in storage and all for not a huge amount of cash.

    As for zu-23-2 and exhaustion they are still production although likely for export markets but I suspect Russia will always keep stock of this system for quite a number of years one thing that syria iraq Libya has shown us that AA guns have proven useful more so in ground support role. And if and when Russia needs to supply a force it's helping such as syria they will be sure to hand these out like handing candy out you will want everyone to have one without real thought. It's q's got limited AD role. And as GarryB said it's penetration isn't that bad on soft skin/ light armour and buildings. They are also cheap to produce. And what will be interesting is if Russia will ever produced (beyond prototype) a towed 30mm or new 57mm gun (likely single barrel especially for the latter) type system which can either be towed or mounted.
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    eehnie

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  eehnie on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:12 pm


    If Im not wrong, the Sovietic/Russian production of the ZU-23-2 finished in 1980.

    After this data would be Chinese production.

    At the time of the Soviet Union, and later, it was very habitual to concede licensed production to other countries, to begin when the local production stopped.

    The total exhaustion of the ZU-23-2 is not a problem for Russia, that can move forward with better options.

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    d_taddei2

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:11 am

    I remember reading somewhere kbp supplied a country with new barrels and ammo. So its maybe likely they still produce but don't actively advertise due to pushing new products. And believe I read somewhere that another russian company still offers upgrades etc. The 100k+ the soviets had will have likely been exhausted long ago if you consider how widely it was exported along with barrel life. Russian companies still have the tooling and won't turn customers away. But I would imagine that they would try and entice them with newer products.

    But to be honest 23mm ammo and zu -23-2 and zsu -23-4 will be around for quite sometime maybe not in Russian forces but I just others.
    And I think a towed AA still has its uses air dropping onto hard to access areas like mountainous areas where an AA gun would serve as AD and direct fire role. Personally it would likely be better to have two systems on mountain tops and AA gun system and a separate towed mount with strelets. But GarryB did state he saw a prototype of a single 30mm gun on towed mount.

    And although Russia now looks to streamline it's forces in terms of calibre sizes and efficient systems I still think the concept is still useful and it's likely just like strelets that a towed AA gun can be mounted on various platforms mt-lb typhoon btr tigr bmd and even the newer vehicles boomerang etc etc

    Back when AA guns were considered obsolete they then found an alternative use ground support role and now we see it return in its original role. This was mainly because of current types of conflict and different threats such as UAV where a cheap simple AA with air burst and radar can be effective. Just like simple cheap ATGW like AT -3 sagger and spg-9 showed to be useful in syria iraq etc these systems seemed obsolete long ago. It's a bit crazy how it's went full circle again. In a way the west has been caught out because it went too much full tech it sometimes pays to hold of older simple systems but of course within reason.
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    GarryB

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:27 am

    The ZSU-23-4 is still a useful system for Russia, even without missiles to fire, the weapon is very useful as BMPT with an air defense component, while the number of modern BMPTs grow. And fairly more powerful than the SAMUM with ZU-23-2 mounted.

    The main problem in using the ZSU-23-4 in the ground support role is its rather thin armour, and all those electronics inside it become rather decorative... and certainly no cheaper.

    The tracked chassis is more expensive to operate than a cheaper wheeled platform, though ripping out the electronics you could get rather more ready to use ammo in there, but it would make more sense to develop a lighter and more mobile platform... in practise in Afghanistan they often just put ZU-23-2 on the back of a truck or on top of an APC for low cost mobility and fire power.

    In this case a small 4 wheeled vehicle with a lightly armoured cab and the ability to fire it from inside is not a bad solution to a low cost problem.

    My only criticism is that it could be improved with a revised ammo set up that allowed rather more ammo to be stored ready to fire rather than requiring someone to have to get out to change mags every 100 rounds are fired...

    Rather large ammo bins could be fitted that turned with the gun mount to simplify the ammo feed, though barrel overheating then becomes a serious issue too.

    Being a vehicle mount a liquid cooling system should be easy to implement to allow longer bursts of fire without problems...

    Instead, the ZU-23-2 as independent weapon and in other configurations would be on exhaustion, if not totally exhausted at this point.

    In situations where mobility is useful, but the fire power of a HMG or grenade launcher is simply just not enough then a ZU-23-2 is an excellent system.

    Its high velocity rounds means you can really reach out and touch quite distant targets and with a decent HE projectile it does not matter that the rounds are not arriving fast at longer ranges... you could set this up on the side of a hill and shoot at targets 4-5km away and do some damage... it would be a waste of time to try that with a HMG or grenade launcher... it probably wont be effective most of the time at that range but it would certainly get an enemy group of troops on their toes...

    It will be interesting to see if they bother to replace the ZU-23-2 with a ZU-30-1/2 with a single twin barrel 2A38M cannon from a Tunguska... the heavier round and high rate of fire would make it rather interesting... and as I said much more powerful than any HMG or grenade launcher set up against soft ground targets, while sharing the same 30x165mm ammo of the BMP and Helos.

    But it would be likely that Russia would offer this concept as export or as upgrade to t-55 users. The zsu-57-2 proved quite effective at ground support role. If you could seal the turret and make it self loading unmanned turret with caged armour and add AGS, 4 konkurs or AT-6 (as a cheaper alternative to kornet) and you would have a decent bmpt type vehicle armed with self loading twin 57mm guns, AGS, konkurs/AT-6 upgraded armour and unmanned turret with high elevation and a good way of using up zsu-57-2 sitting in storage and all for not a huge amount of cash.

    Interesting idea... plus it would expand the export market for their new 57mm ammo...

    Belt fed 57mm... I would probably remove both guns and replace them with a single gun but with a better ammo feed system to allow a higher rate of fire and allow more ammo to be carried... add a 30 or 40mm grenade launcher with lots of ready to use rounds, and as you mention... AT-6 Shturm missiles are relatively cheap and yet at the same time quite effective against most battlefield targets... you could include a licence to produce them locally...

    A potent fire support vehicle for situations where a real MBT is probably overkill but a 30mm cannon armed IFV is not heavily armed enough...

    If Im not wrong, the Sovietic/Russian production of the ZU-23-2 finished in 1980.

    My Russias Arms catalog from 2002 includes ZU-23-2 as both new models and upgrades... it also included the ammo as well.

    The total exhaustion of the ZU-23-2 is not a problem for Russia, that can move forward with better options.

    At a time when they are putting SPG-9 type weapons back into service (with upgrades) I would expect the ZU-23-2 to remain useful for quite some time.

    The ZSU-23-4 on the other hand will become rather more expensive over time to maintain and operate simply because it is more complex.

    Of course the ZSU-23-4 uses different guns to the ZU-23-2 but they both use the same ammo. The guns on the ZSU-23-4 are water cooled and are able to sustain a higher rate of fire...
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    GarryB

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:29 am

    Another factor is that Russia is still a very big country and not every unit faces the might of NATO needing state of the art weapons...

    A towed ZU-23-2 system that you could move around a hill top base that could reach out in any direction quite a substantial distance with relatively cheap but powerful and effective ammo is useful and already available...

    You could deliver quite a few by helo... and remove them just as quickly.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:51 am

    My point exactly GarryB a towed AA gun delivered by helicopter ideal to protect high vantage points and if you do have to bug out not a massive loss or high tech.

    Another idea of course could be the use of
    GSH -6-23 and GSH-6-30 from old aircraft /damaged laying around and mount it on a ready available widely used chassis like
    MT-LB give it a radar and you suddenly have a self propelled kashtan/AK 630 type air defence system ideal for protecting important areas from cruise missiles etc it's good way of using up vehicles and guns laying around its money for old rope I am am firm believer of not wasting things and nothing more wasteful than military equipment which cost the tax payer alot of money sitting doing nothing when it could be sold or used elsewhere. But if not acted upon quick enough there comes a point something becomes so obsolete that only option is museum piece, target practice or scrap

    As for the 57mm round etc how many
    zsu-57-2 are laying around not just in Russian storage but around the world sitting doing nothing as well as other systems and vehicles? I remember an article on Belarus military which showed pictures that they were sitting with vast number of vehicles sitting doing nothing. Armoured vehicles and artillery guns a waste of money they could have cleared a lot of it decades ago. 2S1 and D-20 guns I remember was just sea of them.
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    eehnie

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  eehnie on Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:54 pm

    In terms of self propelled weapons the ZSU-23-4 has advantage over the ZU-23-2.

    In terms of lighter man-portable weapons, the GSh-23 and GSh-30 (with 1, 2 or 6 barrels) have advantage over the ZU-23-2.

    Many times we see weapons offered to export by Russia that are not new. As example we see now the BMP-2 in the catalog of Rosoboromexport but its production stopped in 2008. Obviously must be well repaired and in good condition for sale. Many times the sale is done after a modernization and upgrade. And the weapons seem like new, but are not new.

    Instead, is very rare to see licensed productions in other countries while local production continues.
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  d_taddei2 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:39 pm

    Some so-called licence production isn't even licenced just copied or with a slight variations to make effectively a different design.

    I see no problem selling older equipment if it makes them money and gets rid of older equipment the customer is obviously happy
    As they are getting something quite a bit cheaper but can still do the job or fits there needs and within its budget win win situation all round. Some countries for certain reasons may not want something heavier like bmp-3 etc because of its needs or threat. Finland still use bmp-2 upgraded yet they have the cash to replace them must be a reason for it.

    The zu-23-2 is cheaper than the zsu-23-4 and slower rate of fire the same goes for GSh -6-23 etc etc and depending on the need and threat and use the slower rate and cheaper price might be what the customer wants. And it's very unlikely you are going to air drop a zsu-23-4 on top of mountain etc. That's where the zu-23-2 comes in handy. And I've seen many zu-23-2 mounted on all kinds of vehicles yet haven't seen a turret from
    zsu-23-4 mounted on anything different.

    Many soviet equipment is still available for purchase with upgrades although not always on catalogue
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    GarryB

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:34 am

    My point exactly GarryB a towed AA gun delivered by helicopter ideal to protect high vantage points and if you do have to bug out not a massive loss or high tech.

    In an emergency take the barrels and the bolts and pile the remaining ammo on top and set fire to what is left...

    But very mobile and very useful systems that can reach out and touch an enemy that might otherwise think they are safe... modern thermal optics offer excellent long range visibility especially in some conditions like in the mountains or on open plains... having a weapon that can reach out and touch makes you safer.

    But if not acted upon quick enough there comes a point something becomes so obsolete that only option is museum piece, target practice or scrap

    The critical thing is ammo and do you have an alternative.

    If you had millions of rounds of 30x165mm for your air force and suddenly your air force was grounded then it is an idea to work out some way of using the ammo... problems involved include most aircraft guns have very short ammo life spans... the single barrel 30mm cannon from the Flanker and Fulcrum are only good for 4-5 thousand rounds... which sounds bad... but they are compact and light and powerful and no fighter pilot would fire half that many rounds in an entire career let alone a fighter needing a replacement within the span of one war let alone several.

    We see Ukrainians using the projectile from a 23mm cannon shell in a rifle muzzle mounted tube to act as a sort of grenade launcher... it is certainly a way to use up old cannon shells, but not really very safe and not really very effective... a 40mm grenade launcher would be much safer and more reliable and more accurate and effective...

    The idea of putting old guns on new chassis and adding radar... when you add radar it starts to become expensive and much more automated... you need electric drives to operate the gun, which means rather sophisticated mounts etc etc

    Most of the stuff we are looking at... ZU-23s lashed onto the back of APCs, or on flatbed trucks in open mounts are rather adhoc, but are also cheap and simple... they have the vehicles and the guns and clearly the ammo, so it makes sense.

    As for the 57mm round etc how many
    zsu-57-2 are laying around not just in Russian storage but around the world sitting doing nothing as well as other systems and vehicles? I remember an article on Belarus military which showed pictures that they were sitting with vast number of vehicles sitting doing nothing. Armoured vehicles and artillery guns a waste of money they could have cleared a lot of it decades ago. 2S1 and D-20 guns I remember was just sea of them.

    When a real war starts it is often useful to have a reserve of weapons and ammo and parts to keep them operating... even if it is not your war, you can pass on ammo and weapons to allies.

    There is the catch 22 of... if you keep the old stuff up to date and useful then it makes sense to actually use it, which makes things harder for new stuff that hasn't been made yet getting made.

    Of course different militaries have different priorities... and different financial situations... a country like Belarus is a forward located Soviet country so there would likely have been rather more military equipment stored there than they could ever need... which was likely compounded by former Soviet forces in eastern europe likely passed through as they withdrew after the end of the cold war and might have dumped brand new kit... so of course weapons that a Syrian soldier would be happy to get his hands on might look like old crap to someone from Belarus who is not getting shot at.

    In many places in Africa a ZSU-57-2 could be front line equipment that is vastly more useful than a tank because of its fire power... and lack of enemy MBTs...

    In terms of self propelled weapons the ZSU-23-4 has advantage over the ZU-23-2.

    The ZSU-23-4 is vastly more expensive to buy and to use than a towed ZU-23-2, and there are a lot of places you could never get a ZSU-23-4 that you could drag a ZU-23-2 and use effectively.

    Lash a ZU-23-2 onto the back of a flatbed truck and it has a large portion of the mobility of the ZSU without the cost, but in terms of air defence performance the ZSU is rather better...

    In terms of lighter man-portable weapons, the GSh-23 and GSh-30 (with 1, 2 or 6 barrels) have advantage over the ZU-23-2.

    Well not really... if you want to use the GSh-23 or GSh-30 then you are going to have to rig up some sort of mount to use them and to store their ammo.... keep in mind that they are air force weapons so the ammo is electrically fired so you will need a good reliable power supply to fire them too... so the ammo needs to be air force ammo and it is not compatible with army ammo... which is percussion fired.

    The aircraft weapons tend to have very high rates of fire.... which is usually not so important in ground to ground use... it would make short bursts rather devastating though.

    Finland still use bmp-2 upgraded yet they have the cash to replace them must be a reason for it.

    Couldn't be that it is a good vehicle suited to their conditions.... it wouldn't matter what they had in a real war...

    Anti armour weapons are so widespread these days you need IFVs with tank level protection and even then they are not invincible...

    And it's very unlikely you are going to air drop a zsu-23-4 on top of mountain etc.

    And that is the important thing.... if you can't get heavy vehicles up there... neither can they... so the best they might have are mortars or HMGs... and the ZU-23 out ranges HMG by quite a distance...

    In the mountains the advantage of being able to shoot at them and them not being able to shoot at you is the only advantage you need... there wont be jungle for them to hide in to sneak up on you... plus at higher altitudes helos become much easier targets as they are often struggling at the altitude and with no trees to hide behind...
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:40 am

    It all depends how much time and warning you have to bug out most of the time we had to bug out instantly no time to do anything.
    But if sufficient time was available there was a few options but one for this scenario one easily strap a grenade to and use string to pull the pins

    Another use for a zu-23-2 mount would be mounted on a boat this would then not only provide some basic AD but would be pretty devastating towards similar sized boats and the ability to target enemy on land and at high elevation.

    On the issue of older equipment where I mentioned items kept in storage for too long they then become to far obsolete in regards to your comment on ammo chances are that it the item is too far obsolete then there's a high chance the ammo will either be in small quantities or no longer safe to use. And then on another note there's cost in reactivating it vs. Cost of selling it things like towed artillery costs less to overhaul than a bmp-1 for instance. And all depends on how they were stored and preparation before going into storage.

    If a Russian ally faces another syria type situation you might find more sales of older equipment as syria has proven them useful and economical. Or if Ukraine kicks off again. Although a chunk has been shipped to syria I'd still think quite a bit still remains in storage reserve/storage figures are never accurate
    Regardless of the source. It's only what they are willing to admit some items will be kept in hidden storage some figures are only as good as those who count them and from experience sometimes guestimates wee done by officers/nco

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    Re: ZSU-23-4 AA Gun: Views

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