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    Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

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    victor1985
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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:16 pm

    Well as far as i know laser stop being efficient while the distance from which was emitted increase. That means for a proper guide of missile the plane must get closer to target this making dangerous all. In this the plane will get close to short range cruise missiles or bullet rounds and shells. Now regarding bombing from high altitude is another story. The guidance of missiles is made by inertial/gps guidance. That means the missile-lets say a sidewinder- has inside a cpu whit a map where the target is pointed and either sattelites either own guidance gets the rocket to target. But..... is a catch whit this form of guidance..... cant target moving targets or target that have changed position from that that is in the cpu of rocket. Simply in case of war put your units move from time to time while mobile AAs protect you and youre done whit USAs aviation. To complicate more the things you could just smoke the air and bye bye laser guidance and sattelite surveillance.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:26 pm

    Russia may try apply laser on tunguska..... but in GENERALLY lasers are somehow BAD. They are complex and very sensible weapons in this is difficult to work whit them. I think.....
    IR eyes are already in use and i think they've made good jobs. But me i didnt use to think so much to IR so roght now is difficult to understand the concept. In the past i just thinked to powerfull bombs that blast all in way like a stupid capitalist businessman.....
    Now i just learn some new concepts of equilibrum between lots of factors.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:37 pm

    If this make u happy well you should know that in the day lasers will not be in generally bad its all finish. They will become good to great weapons. But..... Remember USA is usually use lasers and in generally USA has more complex and sophisticated weapons. Russia is known in generally for its RPG - even if USA has developed JAVELIN- and intimidating air rockets. But in the future i think JAVELIN will overwhelm RPG since all countryes are using this - including i am convince somehow of JAVELINs power.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  victor1985 on Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:15 am

    Ok getting back to subject. Well there are some differences between kinetic rounds and engine carried missiles. First of all kinetic rounds are more powerfull at beginning but loose energy till moving. In opposite a rocket by time travelling a distance become faster because of emptying fuel. Kinetic rounds at finish of travelling tend more to push than to penetrate enemy object. The best choice is that the kinetic round hit the object perpendicular on his travel route not from front.
    Another point is that from low altitude bombing radars work better so the defenders are suppose to locate better. Also point is have a bigger gun whit same shell or smaller in this more distance is thrown. But....... smaller become easyer for the wind to stop the shell so is a calculated perfect shape, weight and composition of round.
    About oerlikon...... the point is wich is more easy to discover:laser beam or radar station? In this the defender cannon is almost invisible. Active radar in oposite to passive radar reveal the position of troops.
    What i wanted to say is that a USA plane that target something whit laser can be found and blind like ATMs MANPADS and others are. And yes laser can be use as far i undetstanded as a measurement instrument wich mean can replace radar. I hearf about something called Ladar - wich i dont know well how works but i suppose about reflecting laser beams. Now you can equip pantsir even whit fast video cameras for close to target.

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    AZP-S60 this other forgotten hero

    Post  nemrod on Thu May 21, 2015 7:48 am

    The AZP-S60, beside ZSU23-4, ZPU-14.5, ZPU-23,  AK-47, RPG-7, T-54/55, T-62, T-72, Mig-15, Mig-17, Mig-19, Mig-21, Mig-25, Mig-29, SU-25, SSNX-3 Styx, SA-2, SA-6, and many many others deserve respect. Why so few articles about this absolutly incredible legend ? Why this wonderfull hardware is so despised, including by russsiandefense's forum users ?
    Its incredible palmares is :
    - AZP-S60 was the unfortunate hero 1967 war, nevertheless effective after the surprise attack, and this hardware limited the egyptian, and syrian losses.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of Vietnam war.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of the 1973 war.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of Iraq-Iran war.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of Gulf war -1991-. It hampered in a significant way western bombing campaign.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of Israel-Hizbollah war in 2006.
    - AZP-S60 is the actual hero of Saudi-Yemen war, where untill now, Saudis did not successfully reach their objectives. In fact saudi air force  -in reality westerners pilots and must be american pilots, if not israelis pilots run saudis aircrafts- did not reach any of its objectives.
    - AZP-S60 has redoutable effectiveness, because as westerners provided a significant number to DAESH terrorists criminals, untill now, neither russian-syrian chinese bombardements, or US western coalition's bombardements were effectives. DAESH terrorists successfully took Ramadhi, and Palmyre. It proves the louder and ostentatious F-22 presence was just no more than a show, but completly useless. The most responsible of this faillure is still the AZP-S-60. Why ?
    Westerners asserts that its effectiveness range is between 500-1500 m.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZP_S-60
    Well, if I see untill now its effectiveness, and how this basic asymetric, anti-aircraft cannon could hampered the most modern air bombardements, this claim seems to be completly false. Why this success ?
    In fact its secret could be its upgrade amnutions like HE-T, and AP-T. If I take the original amnutions, indeed, the range of the AZP S-60 could be limited to 1.500 m, where it can perfored 96 mm. But with modern amnutions it can perfored the fragile fighter bombers armour, and exploded inside the aircraft transforming this basic cannon as redoutable anti-aircraft artillerie, and sometimes as anti lightly armored vehicles. As I understood, its effective range must be above 5.000 meters. As the velocity of the amnutions are around 1000 m/s the fighter-bombers will have to fly high, and very quiclkly. In these conditions the precision could not be meet. If someone among you has more clues about this incredible, and amazing old soviet weapons that is still effective nowadays.








    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Improvised Air Defence

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:57 am

    Modern AD systems are expensive and often hard to get for a non-state participants of armed conflicts but there is plenty of older stuff.

    I wonder - would it be possible to increase the efficiacy of old Soviet stuff (ZPU, ZSU-23-2 and the like) by linking it to some radar, then linking everything to a computer and using the whole system (it could be installed on two pick-ups) to shoot down easier targets like helicopters and incoming bombs/missiles?

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:31 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Modern AD systems are expensive and often hard to get for a non-state participants of armed conflicts but there is plenty of older stuff.

    I wonder - would it be possible to increase the efficiacy of old Soviet stuff (ZPU, ZSU-23-2 and the like) by linking it to some radar, then linking everything to a computer and using the whole system (it could be installed on two pick-ups) to shoot down easier targets like helicopters and incoming bombs/missiles?

    So a basic IADS network command post with distribution of information and seperate radars, what russians are doing since decades. The problem here is, how far behind are those existing systems and how feasible is to upgrade them to a functioning IADS in comperision of buying respective new equipment that already have such capabilities with far higher capability, integration, performance and outgun aircrafts which is important. For ZSU-23-2 it is not feasible to be that effective to destroy bombs/missiles except if they use most modern Morphei, Igla-S which already cost quite a lot and maybe to expensive to mount them on an old plattform with limited performance.

    Like sometimes old cars when they break "total schaden" the costs to repair it, is very often far higher then their actual costs which makes a purchase of new car more economical solution. However i've no information on how far old systems can be upgraded to meet such needs for Anti-PGM capability with decentralized air defence network, but i highly doubt it is as cost effecient as buying more modern systems which already have such technology since decades and are not as expensive as most modern TOR, Panzir or a BUK komplex.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:54 am

    I am talking about irregular units with limited ability to aquire modern weaponry, that want to have basic AD capability - ability to protect it's forces from enemy ordnance and maybe shoot down some helicopters and low flying drones.

    Large calliber (12.7mm and 14.5mm) machineguns and unguided AD artillery from 1950s-60s are among the most common stuff in armed conflicts worldwidde.and their cost does not exceed $10,000 per unit (Pantsir costs $13 mln per unit). How much would it cost to mount such system on a pick-up, connect it to another pick up with a radar and then connect both to a targeting system on a computer (may even be a laptop)? Alternatively install a thermal sight together with targeting software

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:54 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:I am talking about irregular units with limited ability to aquire modern weaponry, that want to have basic AD capability - ability to protect it's forces from enemy ordnance and maybe shoot down some helicopters and low flying drones.

    Large calliber (12.7mm and 14.5mm) machineguns and unguided AD artillery from 1950s-60s are among the most common stuff in armed conflicts worldwidde.and their cost does not exceed $10,000 per unit (Pantsir costs $13 mln per unit). How much would it cost to mount such system on a pick-up, connect it to another pick up with a radar and then connect both to a targeting system on a computer (may even be a laptop)? Alternatively install a thermal sight together with targeting software

    Well in that scenario something similiar but little bit more optimized tactics like Serbs have done of concealing and deceicive exposure of dummies operations to limit own losses and lure enemy Air force for easy bait strikes which worked for a time untill they got desperate and started attacking not just military targets but infrastructure. The Serbs were unprepared, if you have limited capabilities but enough to assure protection to even some degree of infrastructure you can double tap their initial tactics. A very important role in Serbs case was that it is, unlike iraq, not an open flat environment with little to no visual and cognitive distraction of a dense and unhomogen environment, with lot urban are scattered across the country that may from air are not visible. Serbian soil and the mentioned high visual distractions had to push NATO aircrafts to relative low altitudes for assured target detection and engagement, this had left NATO aircrafts well within ground fire range of even sub 14.5mm weapons range and left them exposed in lethal zone for 23mm or higher cannon fire which is within 1.5km. This environment in the case of Serbia like it would be for many countries in that region with similiar limited military power and importance of the countries demize for political reasons like the AMBO pipeline for Serbian destruction and split of kosovo, the entire situation has made it unfeasible to operate ground units, meaning the US and NATO were completley deprived of any ground assets to achieve military relevant goals, which made the entire air strike campaign a farce that could be sustain over a relative short period of time without achieving anything military relevant of actual occupation or control of the enemies soil and their routes and therefor capability. Untill the last day of US air strikes the Serbian forces remained to great extent of their ADS capability uncomprimized with relative low amount of losses and a surprisingly high count of downed NATO aircrafts and lost land only due the illegal seperation of a NGO called ICC. However besides the political rant, the basic principle of limited resources is always to switch to an asymmetrical warfare to reshuffle the oppossing forces military strengths.

    Like Clausewitz said the best way to fight your opponent to lead his future decisions by your own planning and actions to basically liquidated other usually feasible or rational tactics for your enemy and bind him to a limited amount of reactions he can make, by that your own resources are greatly spared and you can reply with bound resources rather with split resources to assure any military feasible action from your enemy.

    Regarding costs of seperate upgrade of ZSU-23-2, there are some units upgraded with FLIR and if i am not mistaken there is an upgrade option for a small sized Radar and FCS, not much bigger than the M113 Vulcan 2 radar which can recieve data, maybe full sharing, which i doubt. I do not know the exact costs but upgrades exist the only problem with such stationary targets is fielding them on suitable and formidable plattforms for mobility but with enough stability to actually benefit from FCS or Radar, not like those flimsy toyota trucks that almost get overthrown by a 14.5/4 gun system.

    However why not going for a ZUR-23-8? tongue

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:54 pm

    I would give you +1 and I can't... damn. I have exactly neutral reputation.

    Do you know general Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck (amazing man) and his campaign? The idea of a somewhat crude but effective AD system came to me after reading about how he removed guns from a beached German cruiser and used them as artillery - then I started thinking about various wars (including Kosovo) and it occured to me that such a cheap combo may be effective for guerilla forces - you have a company/battalion of light infantry, you add a vehicle with a modernized AA gun and you can protect uour forces. Imagine that situation - somw guys in pickups are driving exposed and F-16s that fly above them can do nothing because some guy with a 1950s gun shoots down incoming PGMs. Laughing Idea

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:19 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:I would give you +1 and I can't... damn. I have exactly neutral reputation.

    Do you know general Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck (amazing man) and his campaign? The idea of a somewhat crude but effective AD system came to me after reading about how he removed guns from a beached German cruiser and used them as artillery - then I started thinking about various wars (including Kosovo) and it occured to me that such a cheap combo may be effective for guerilla forces - you have a company/battalion of light infantry, you add a vehicle with a modernized AA gun and you can protect uour forces. Imagine that situation - somw guys in pickups are driving exposed and F-16s that fly above them can do nothing because some guy with a 1950s gun shoots down incoming PGMs. Laughing Idea

    No, never heared of that general. If i recall correctly either i've read somewhere or have heared that in Vietnam some dispearsed and isolated US troops have done something similiar after being cut off from own troops with ammunition scratching to zero but with a few destroyed vehicles among them Ontos M-50 an actually effective vehicle for that period of war (the chassis reminds me of Weasel) and they stripped it from its recoilless weapons and used them in the field while retreating to find back to some of their troops.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:27 pm

    You never heard of Lettow-Vorbeck? That's the guy who led German troops in East Africa during ww1 - he had 11,000 troops at peak and these forces successfully tied 300,000 Anglo-Belgian troops... in 1914 with 1,000 men he repelled 8,000-strong British naval assault losing about 140 men while the British lost over 800.

    Amazing man.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:33 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:You never heard of Lettow-Vorbeck? That's the guy who led German troops in East Africa during ww1 - he had 11,000 troops at peak and these forces successfully tied 300,000 Anglo-Belgian troops... in 1914 with 1,000 men he repelled 8,000-strong British naval assault losing about 140 men while the British lost over 800.

    Amazing man.

    To be honest i have very little interest in WW1 besides some geopolitical things. The warfare itself was vastly wasteful of all resource overall human in comperision with the achievements and ineffective warfare and doctrines at that time.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:07 pm

    Werewolf:

    Ok. Let's suppose we have an irregular army (like Houthis in Yemen, vs Saudi Arabia, Syrian rebels vs Assad, IS against coalition and Assad) that wants to have basic AD capability (like what I said - destroying PGMs, low flying helicopters/drones and maybe 1-2 fighters under ideal circumstances) - what equipment would you give them and what tactics would you propose to have maximally cost-effective AD? Imagine you're a millitary advisor to Houthi revels in Yemen and you have to build their AD so that they can render Saudi AF ineffective. You have a budget of around $50 mln

    Would a modernized ZPU/ZSU with either FLIR or a radar, mounted on a truck stand the test?

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:54 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Werewolf:

    Ok. Let's suppose we have an irregular army  (like Houthis in Yemen, vs Saudi Arabia, Syrian rebels vs Assad, IS against coalition and Assad) that wants to have basic AD capability (like what I said - destroying PGMs, low flying helicopters/drones and maybe 1-2 fighters under ideal circumstances) - what equipment would you give them and what tactics would you propose to have maximally cost-effective AD? Imagine you're a millitary advisor to Houthi revels in Yemen and you have to build their AD so that they can render Saudi AF ineffective. You have a budget of around $50 mln

    Would a modernized ZPU/ZSU with either FLIR or a radar, mounted on a truck stand the test?

    50 mln USD?

    That is almost nothing, with such a budget you can forget anything advanced, no network no radars, no communication systems besides basic infantry radios. The US has spend more millions to provide Taliban with basic infantry ammuntion every year.

    With such a tight budget the only option for you to end up with any kind of effeciency against aircrafts is to by low calibre Anti Aircraft guns with some fewer higher calibre guns ZSU-23-2 the mere the better, because your asymmetric warfare will not be advanced by any kind of intel shared among your forces, meaning they are very reactionary and have to have necessary means for that but with basic tactics embeded as their doctrine as AD.

    The high amount of 12.7-14.5mm will be necessary to keep at least the presence of some very basic and very limited but in biggest numbers possible to compensate the disadvantage of not having an actual integrated Air defence system or any kind of advanced technologies for such jobs. The problem for such weapons are jet fighters striking down with hit and run tactics, but that is not their job anyway, they will be mere assets of representing a threat, but their job will and must be based on concealed tactics similiar to what taliban did against Mig-23 and Hinds in Afghanistan, which had hard time to effectivley fight taliban that had used tarps with ZSU-23-2 and 12.7-14.5mm MG's, they were particulary weighting near convoys untill one group was engaging the convoy and the ZSU-23-2 and KPVT where weighting for air assault that either was escorting or came for support. This was the first and biggest problem for hinds and some Mig-23's.

    The other issue is, today FLIR's are rather wide spread even for such countries like Saudi Arabia, that will make some tactics less effective but concealing against aircraft isn't hardest job since some insurgents have been educated well enough to conceal themselfs against Aircraft based FLIR's by placing Glas sheets in a relative flat angle so the glas sheets are reflecting the sky back to whatever could be watching you from the sky. The trick behind this is that glas is not and never used in aviation to protect or cover FLIR's. Light in the thermal spectrum is mirrowed by glass to 99% degree which is one of the reasons why thermal imaging googles can not or have not been deployed by aircraft crew, even tho some could due the acryl plastic glass lot of aircrafts use, but that is different story. I do not know how often such strategy was used, but it is a very simple solution to conceal yourself from FLIR's.

    I don't know if your proposed means of example include only one time this budget of 50 mln USD, because ammunition will be used and needed in very great numbers for relative long time and 50 mln USD won't cut it, but lets not break heads about logistics of ammunition, it is unrealistic but you have to cheat somewhere to get effeciency from such circumstances, anyways...

    The big issue here is that the environment is less favorable then compared to lot of european countries or Serbia, the concealment of ADS units of all types was not a big problem, from the urban to forests and hills they had enough concealing possibilities and used them. It was very effective and due the environment the NATO Airforce was forced to strike from low altitude to identify anything as a target to have capability to engage it, by the time they could identify a target dummy or real target they usually have already entered the enemies envelope of even basic Anti Aircraft guns of 23mm or less and helicopters usually have entered lethal zone of 1.5-1km before they could effectively see or engage their targets. This is not the same for the locations in the ME, at least such beneficial environments are rare and not often already dragged far back to important assets or interests for you and enemy which can be already quite dangerous for your defending side.

    To be honest 50 mln USD, i personally couldn't think under such circumstances of much effeciency even when you would spare some of that money to buy advanced modern MANPADS as an important mean to protect most vital military assets on the field or to keep an enemy airforce long enough away from such assets, but that is the highest efficiency, i can think off for such circumstances. I would assume Mindstorm, SOC and GarryB can give you far better examples to make it more effective, especially SOC since this is his field of profession, but unfortunatley he hasn't posted in quite long time.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:03 pm

    So let's assume it's $500 mln at once and a smaller but fixed amount each year for ammo and spare parts.

    Though it's doubtful that Iranians would spend so much on AD for Houthis. They could equip and train a eliten infantry division for so much money. Hezbollah receives max. 200 mln USD from Iran annually.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Militarov on Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:32 pm

    This might sound funny but somehow i feel that Iran somehow pioneered comeback of these 57 and 76mm AA guns, now you ask how and laugh, BUT. Couple years ago Iranians presented their "new" AA gun 100mm "Sa'eer".

    "The Sa'eer or Saeer is an Iranian upgrade of old Russian or Chinese 100 mm air defence gun. Iran has a stock of obsolete Soviet KS-19 100mm anti-aircraft guns, some likely captured from Iraq during the 1980s. The Sa’eer would be based on the Russian made anti-aircraft gun KS-19 or its Chinese equivalent the Type-59, but now equipped with automatic motorized positioning system and firing radar. A crew is still required for reloading. With automated targeting and alignment far greater accuracy should be obtainable, likely increasing effective range and altitude. The system is still unsuited to “CIWS (close-in weapon system)” type employment but a useful stop-gap addition to Iran’s more capable SHORAD (Short Range Air Defense) missile forces like SA 15 Tor deployed at Natanz. The Sa'eer can create a shield against enemy aircraft and missiles at medium and low altitude. The most important feature that it can be control by complete smart system which requires the minimum operating personnel."

    And then after 2-3 years whoala everyone started roaming though their old high caliber self propelled AA gun projects and started reviving them, most notably Italians with Draco and Russians with their 57mm turrets. I mean it could and probably is a coincidence i just love how it happened Smile.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:05 am

    The KS-19 and the KS-21 were always designed as anti aircraft weapons (100mm and 130mm guns) and had radar support. They were made obsolete fairly quickly as missiles became more reliable and came down in cost.

    The 57mm gun is being revived in Russia not for anti aircraft purposes, the main reason is because full calibre tank gun missiles are more expensive per round than dumb rounds and 30mm cannons just wont penetrate IFV armour at battlefield ranges any more.

    The 57mm calibre with APFSDS rounds should be able to penetrate any Bradley or Warrior at 2km fairly easily... its added advantage of having a calibre large enough to allow guided shells for AA use is a bonus.

    regarding anti aircraft guns of large calibre we can blame the italians for that... with their 76mm gun vehicle in the 1980s.


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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Militarov on Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:46 am

    GarryB wrote:The KS-19 and the KS-21 were always designed as anti aircraft weapons (100mm and 130mm guns) and had radar support. They were made obsolete fairly quickly as missiles became more reliable and came down in cost.

    The 57mm gun is being revived in Russia not for anti aircraft purposes, the main reason is because full calibre tank gun missiles are more expensive per round than dumb rounds and 30mm cannons just wont penetrate IFV armour at battlefield ranges any more.

    The 57mm calibre with APFSDS rounds should be able to penetrate any Bradley or Warrior at 2km fairly easily... its added advantage of having a calibre large enough to allow guided shells for AA use is a bonus.

    regarding anti aircraft guns of large calibre we can blame the italians for that... with their 76mm gun vehicle in the 1980s.

    I am well aware KS19 and KS21 are AA guns however they were removed from the service almost everywhere in the world and suddenly they got pulled back into service in Iran with automated loading system, new radars and optical tracking devices etc. Atm i belive only two countries to operate high caliber self propelled guns (not counting NK and fact they still use KS19 in original state and ZSU57-2 which) are Iran and Sweden with their LvKv 90. From what i am seeing Russians are also trying to build AA platform with 57mm gun too beside original role for AU220M turret to be used on IFVs. Yes Otomatic was somewhat of a pioneer but it was forgotten very fast.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:16 pm

    As you likely already know fully well large calibre AAGs are made obsolete by modern missile technology.

    These large calibre guns... even with radar guidance and auto loading would have to fire thousands of rounds and even then may not hit anything.

    In comparison a medium range missile might get a kill every 10-15 launches for older missiles and much better performance with newer systems.

    The Osa replaced the 57mm guns because anti aircraft performance of the 57mm guns required very skilled operators and large numbers of guns and lots of ammo to be effective.

    The main reason the 57mm gun is being looked at is because guided shells make it more effective.

    The 37mm guns of WWII were replaced by more powerful 57mm guns in the hope that they would be effective over greater ranges. It was found the low rate of fire reduced hit probability, so it was replaced by 23mm cannon and even 14.5mm HMG which had much shorter range but higher hit probability.

    As we know these systems were powerful and effective but with helicopters being introduced with standoff ATGMs the 30mm cannon was introduced along with missiles to compliment them... high rate of fire but heavier shell with better range.

    The 57mm round was being revisited as a replacement for the main gun in the PT-76 and guided shells were looked at. Guided shells made their use against point targets at extended range possible and the larger calibre allowed for better armour penetration for enemy light vehicles.

    There was already a programme to develop a replacement for the 30mm cannon shell used in all Russian armed forces branches (Air Force, Army, Navy) and it was either a 45mm or a 57mm calibre weapon... This was revealed in the early 1990s when the Il-102 alternative to the Su-25 was revealed and it was mentioned it would have had a 45mm or 57mm belly mounted anti armour gun.

    If they can get the system to work efficiently I suspect the new standard IFV gun will be a 57mm gun or a 45mm gun and their might not need to be a separate anti aircraft "gun" vehicle as the standard IFVs will almost certainly be able to engage aircraft effectively. Modern BMP-3M fire control systems reportedly have an autotracker to allow aircraft to be effectively engaged... I suspect that will continue...

    Likely the first implementation of 57mm anti aircraft guns will be on Russian Navy corvettes. Possibly then being used on the replacement for the Su-25.... Twisted Evil


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    Militarov
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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Militarov on Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:59 pm

    GarryB wrote:As you likely already know fully well large calibre AAGs are made obsolete by modern missile technology.

    These large calibre guns... even with radar guidance and auto loading would have to fire thousands of rounds and even then may not hit anything.

    In comparison a medium range missile might get a kill every 10-15 launches for older missiles and much better performance with newer systems.

    The Osa replaced the 57mm guns because anti aircraft performance of the 57mm guns required very skilled operators and large numbers of guns and lots of ammo to be effective.

    The main reason the 57mm gun is being looked at is because guided shells make it more effective.

    The 37mm guns of WWII were replaced by more powerful 57mm guns in the hope that they would be effective over greater ranges. It was found the low rate of fire reduced hit probability, so it was replaced by 23mm cannon and even 14.5mm HMG which had much shorter range but higher hit probability.

    As we know these systems were powerful and effective but with helicopters being introduced with standoff ATGMs the 30mm cannon was introduced along with missiles to compliment them... high rate of fire but heavier shell with better range.

    The 57mm round was being revisited as a replacement for the main gun in the PT-76 and guided shells were looked at. Guided shells made their use against point targets at extended range possible and the larger calibre allowed for better armour penetration for enemy light vehicles.

    There was already a programme to develop a replacement for the 30mm cannon shell used in all Russian armed forces branches (Air Force, Army, Navy) and it was either a 45mm or a 57mm calibre weapon... This was revealed in the early 1990s when the Il-102 alternative to the Su-25 was revealed and it was mentioned it would have had a 45mm or 57mm belly mounted anti armour gun.

    If they can get the system to work efficiently I suspect the new standard IFV gun will be a 57mm gun or a 45mm gun and their might not need to be a separate anti aircraft "gun" vehicle as the standard IFVs will almost certainly be able to engage aircraft effectively. Modern BMP-3M fire control systems reportedly have an autotracker to allow aircraft to be effectively engaged... I suspect that will continue...

    Likely the first implementation of 57mm anti aircraft guns will be on Russian Navy corvettes.  Possibly then being used on the replacement for the Su-25.... Twisted Evil

    I agree on part where you say that guns during 60s and 70s were greatly outperformed by missiles, however i do not agree on your statement that they need to spend thousands of shells to destroy something today, actually Italian Draco apparead to have exeptional target destruction rate with just couple of shells on up to 12km ranges. Effectiveness of SPAAGs greatly improved over guns that were connected to "direction pointers" and not radars and lacked any kind of optical channel etc, so yeah they did perform quite poorly compared to missiles. So if you mix in one unit some short range SAMs and high calibre SPAAGs you get full spectrum of engagement, you engage slower and less dangerous targets with Draco, and you engage further and higher speed targets with missiles, i hope you follow what i am trying to say.

    One proximity fuse 76mm shell for for Draco probably does not cost more than 100USD probably, meanwhile one missile for Tor or Pantsir has quite a significant price, and they both will generally speaking engage same spectrum of targets, Serbians in 1999. were managing to shoot down cruise missiles, even gliding bombs with 20mm guns, if they had modern SPAAGs of 57 or 76mm target envelope would be alot higher coz 20mm guns have very limited target engage altitude. So i cannot really agree on that, i dont belive high caliber AA guns are to be part of the past.

    Yeah i am aware of 57mm gun plans to be used on corvetes and that is capable enough weapon for them, however what i would like to see is Russian aircraft based gunship with such gun, that would be very interesting something based on IL112 for an example.

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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:19 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Modern AD systems are expensive and often hard to get for a non-state participants of armed conflicts but there is plenty of older stuff.

    I wonder - would it be possible to increase the efficiacy of old Soviet stuff (ZPU, ZSU-23-2 and the like) by linking it to some radar, then linking everything to a computer and using the whole system (it could be installed on two pick-ups) to shoot down easier targets like helicopters and incoming bombs/missiles?

    ZU-23/30M1-3 (images by Vitalij Kuz'min)






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    Post  d_taddei2 on Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:04 pm

    nemrod wrote:The AZP-S60, beside ZSU23-4, ZPU-14.5, ZPU-23,  AK-47, RPG-7, T-54/55, T-62, T-72, Mig-15, Mig-17, Mig-19, Mig-21, Mig-25, Mig-29, SU-25, SSNX-3 Styx, SA-2, SA-6, and many many others deserve respect. Why so few articles about this absolutly incredible legend ? Why this wonderfull hardware is so despised, including by russsiandefense's forum users ?
    Its incredible palmares is :
    - AZP-S60 was the unfortunate hero 1967 war, nevertheless effective after the surprise attack, and this hardware limited the egyptian, and syrian losses.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of Vietnam war.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of the 1973 war.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of Iraq-Iran war.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of Gulf war -1991-. It hampered in a significant way western bombing campaign.
    - AZP-S60 was the hero of Israel-Hizbollah war in 2006.
    - AZP-S60 is the actual hero of Saudi-Yemen war, where untill now, Saudis did not successfully reach their objectives. In fact saudi air force  -in reality westerners pilots and must be american pilots, if not israelis pilots run saudis aircrafts- did not reach any of its objectives.
    - AZP-S60 has redoutable effectiveness, because as westerners provided a significant number to DAESH terrorists criminals, untill now, neither russian-syrian chinese bombardements, or US western coalition's bombardements were effectives. DAESH terrorists successfully took Ramadhi, and Palmyre. It proves the louder and ostentatious F-22 presence was just no more than a show, but completly useless. The most responsible of this faillure is still the AZP-S-60. Why ?
    Westerners asserts that its effectiveness range is between 500-1500 m.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZP_S-60
    Well, if I see untill now its effectiveness, and how this basic asymetric, anti-aircraft cannon could hampered the most modern air bombardements, this claim seems to be completly false. Why this success ?
    In fact its secret could be its upgrade amnutions like HE-T, and AP-T. If I take the original amnutions, indeed, the range of the AZP S-60 could be limited to 1.500 m, where it can perfored 96 mm. But with modern amnutions it can perfored the fragile fighter bombers armour, and exploded inside the aircraft transforming this basic cannon as redoutable anti-aircraft artillerie, and sometimes as anti lightly armored vehicles. As I understood, its effective range must be above 5.000 meters. As the velocity of the amnutions are around 1000 m/s the fighter-bombers will have to fly high, and very quiclkly. In these conditions the precision could not be meet. If someone among you has more clues about this incredible, and amazing old soviet weapons that is still effective nowadays.










    hi i have posted a couple threads about the 57mm gun, in S-60 form and ZSU 57-2 and have nothing but praise for it, the shell is devastating against aircraft and ground targets, i rather like to look at the gun itself than just solely the S-60, but i think really in todays conflicts, the only use the S-60 has is in the ground support role, in Syria they (SAA) have even mounted them on trucks.

    the gun itself has is pure excellence and would be ideal mounted on a AFV,  i think the ZSU -57-2 is brilliant at providing ground suport and with a few modifications like adding armour to the turret to protect crew and some sighting upgrades and its a useful ground support vehicle and would be ideal to use them up in this manner if you have in your inventory. Also the gun has been used on upgraded PT-76's the PT-76E, see below,  and of course they could still be used in anti air role if needed. Another option for the S-60 would be upgrade along the same lines what the Iranian's did with the KS-19 (100mm) anti aircraft gun, think they called it Sa ir or saeer, which is fully automatic, self loading and radar controlled, see pic below, ive also included a video of the ZSU 57-2 being used in ground support role, enjoy, the S-60/ 57mm gun is a hero and could still be used in newer equipment as there is talk in putting on the new Kruganets AFV,








    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : info)

    GarryB
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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:42 am

    There is an excellent opportunity with the new vehicle families the Russians are developing for mobile gun platforms in the form of a range of vehicle types including heavy and medium tracked vehicles and medium and light wheeled vehicles.

    Fitting a fairly large vehicle with a 57mm gun turret with the internal capacity of the hull of the vehicle for extra ammo would enable the creation of very powerful vehicles.

    Imagine a 57mm gun armed armata based vehicle with an enormous amount of internal ammo, plus guided shells and modern long range sensors and heavy armour.

    Not designed to take on enemy tanks of course, but pretty much able to take on any enemy light vehicle or ground position... and light aircraft...


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    Re: Old AA Guns | S-60 57mm and ZSU 23-4: Views

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:33 pm

    GarryB wrote:There is an excellent opportunity with the new vehicle families the Russians are developing for mobile gun platforms in the form of a range of vehicle types including heavy and medium tracked vehicles and medium and light wheeled vehicles.

    Fitting a fairly large vehicle with a 57mm gun turret with the internal capacity of the hull of the vehicle for extra ammo would enable the creation of very powerful vehicles.

    Imagine a 57mm gun armed armata based vehicle with an enormous amount of internal ammo, plus guided shells and modern long range sensors and heavy armour.

    Not designed to take on enemy tanks of course, but pretty much able to take on any enemy light vehicle or ground position... and light aircraft...

    I don't think anyone believes a 57mm gun can penetrate the frontal armor of modern MBT's, however with guided shells it's quite possible with the help of command posts (maybe capable of guiding 20 or more shells at a time) and maybe drones for guidance accuracy, to direct 57 mm shells to hit (within 1-4 meters of each other) the top armor of MBT, taking out the crew compartments and the engine spaces.

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