Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Talking bollocks thread

    Share

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3228
    Points : 3352
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:35 am

    seph got mad , because he thinks , i downgraded Russia technological and scientific
    and business potential capabilities in any way shape or form. and thats not correct.
    Im really convinced Russia can do as well in many other technology business and it can do
    in space.  My only complain is with Putin's Policies , that Russia have a Huge , potential and the government does not take advantage of it. Putin waste the money of Russian citizens in pensions , in sports , in maintain a very large soviet navy ,and cut the funding in the most important things in were Russia can truly make a difference in business in the world.    

    How i cannot get upset , when Russia spend $62 billions in sports alone  , but then go give $2billions a year to its space program and be happy with that. and now Russian banned from sports but when it comes to space or any high tech business , Putin goes and goes
    very cheap .  then Go and a makes a deal with China to build a $250 billions super train .   Suspect    but then at the same time cut space budget by 30%.   cry   then later give away
    $1billion to pensioners that not even live in Russia.

    Then announce a new super nuke train to "protect Russia" from an american attack.

    Am i not reasonable to see upset about this  ?  Is this is trolling?    Neutral    

    Then later Putin complains that the west does not takes Russia seriously , and i see clearly
    what Putin is doing wrong. Is simply not leading in the world in the business that really matters.
    Is not stealing the show. Not competing with Americans in their best business.  Putin loves to compete with Americans in sports..  But What's wrong to compete with americans best business too ? Whats so bad about it?  Putin needs to wait for sanctions to happen in 2014 to start replacing american IT technology in Russia.  He is like an decade late.  Neutral  But still just very timid with that.very limited the investments of Russia in IT.  Sports investments is like 50x times higher. of what Russia spend in IT.

    The key of Russia to stop American Imperialism and even end NATO ,is to counter
    American top business ,at least compete just like Japan does. But Putin cannot do that with words alone. it needs to create Top quality Business (technology and entertainment) that represent an alternative to the American Business. at the same Start experimenting with a new Swift ,new internet ,new economic model not using dollars .Create conditions for an easier transition from the American world ,once their economy collapse. So  Russia becomes a Real Alternative to American IT business and Entertainment and more than anything Russia needs to takes the lead again in Space.

      If Putin just stay happy with easy to run ,low risk business , like Oil and Gas ,and agriculture , and allow Americans to continue leading in the most popular business , then it will be a matter of time Americans will manage to isolate Russia from the western world completely.and even provoke revolution in Russia ,just like Euromaidans. when Russia economy gets very bad. they can do that easily By creating more problems and conflicts near Russian borders as they did in Ukraine and Georgia and Syria ,or countries Russia have interest and disconnecting all Russian business from Europe.


    OminousSpudd
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 806
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2015-01-03
    Age : 21
    Location : Nelson, New Zealand

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  OminousSpudd on Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:32 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    sepheronx wrote: Whatever, I am done with this forums as well I think.  It is beyond me why we allow such people to flood the forums, degrading it with incoherent rants.  I will stick around to read but I don't think I will contribute anymore.

    Sorry to hear that Seph, appreciated your contribution anyway and hope you reconsider your decision  Smile

    As for Vann he is well kinda of childish living in fantasy world where everything is black and white but IMHO he is no troll jut to young to understand.



    PapaDragon wrote: Agreed, this place has turned to crap long ago. Trolls flood the place with trash which convinces both frequent users and casual lurkers to avoid this forum but mods just ignore and support them.

    I am done too. I will be keeping account for the sake of ignore function but I have finished with wasting my time posting content here.

    Enjoy Ultron's company and his intelligent contributions.  

    Adios!

    oh no not you again! damn you guys, worthy contributors should not leave

    Damn... It's sad but true. Mods have ignored the trolls, while punishing legitimate posters, every bloody thread is broken up by ignored posts now.

    Werewolf
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5390
    Points : 5639
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:09 pm

    That is why i haven't posted much like half a year or more now. Mods and Vlad maybe think about it or see it dying your choice and you know it. Over a year i have complaint about double accounts by trolls even the forum rules by Vlad stated it is prohibited aswell voting system was abused by such double accounts but still no action against the abusers. Your own fault when it dies, not ours. Have better things to do then waste my time being flooded by trolls which purpose is soley to let it die since their little rats ship mp.net sunk. They are a cancer, cut it out or die!

    higurashihougi
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2129
    Points : 2244
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:04 am

    @Garry, @Vlad: I think there is a serious problem here, would you mind giving your opinion ?

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15468
    Points : 16175
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:01 am

    I could say everyone with a view contrary to mine is a troll... if I ban everyone who does not agree with me then we end up with a forum of yes men, where I post my opinion and everyone agrees.

    I don't like arguments... the old saying of arguing with an idiot on the internet is a waste of time... they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    I am annoyed at people who blame everything on Putin, but then there are people who blame everything on the US or the Jews or aliens or Muslims. I can't stop ignorance, no matter how much I ban.

    As shown by an obvious return idiot, do we keep banning over and over as they keep returning with different usernames?

    IP bans are not the answer as you can just unplug your router and then plug back in as most companies have a range of IP addresses that are assigned dynamically, so when they reconnect they will be allocated a new IP address.


    Damn... It's sad but true. Mods have ignored the trolls, while punishing legitimate posters, every bloody thread is broken up by ignored posts now.

    I object to that comment Spudd... what legitimate or illegitimate posters have been punished by a mod?


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3228
    Points : 3352
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:24 am

    GarryB wrote:I could say everyone with a view contrary to mine is a troll... if I ban everyone who does not agree with me then we end up with a forum of yes men, where I post my opinion and everyone agrees.

    I don't like arguments... the old saying of arguing with an idiot on the internet is a waste of time... they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    I am annoyed at people who blame everything on Putin, but then there are people who blame everything on the US or the Jews or aliens or Muslims.  I can't stop ignorance, no matter how much I ban.

    As shown by an obvious return idiot, do we keep banning over and over as they keep returning with different usernames?

    IP bans are not the answer as you can just unplug your router and then plug back in as most companies have a range of IP addresses that are assigned dynamically, so when they reconnect they will be allocated a new IP address.


    Damn... It's sad but true. Mods have ignored the trolls, while punishing legitimate posters, every bloody thread is broken up by ignored posts now.

    I object to that comment Spudd... what legitimate or illegitimate posters have been punished by a mod?


    I have disagree many times with Garry in the past.. and still does.. Smile in many strategy
    issues of Russia military.. ie.. Like the way Pak-DA should be. etc. But i never for a single
    moment though it was not valuable Garry contributions to the forum. he knows a lot of
    military stuff and learn alot.. Seph i think he got mad , because he believed i was downplaying Russia capabilities in technology as no idea how he got that impression.
    Since i my only complain is Putin internal Policies with Russia economy. how he waste so much money in things i feel Russia dont need. The funny thing in all this is that i always appreciated
    Seph information about technology , he knows a lot of IT.. So he was too over sensitive when
    he joined the discussion. In any case i think he will return.. lol and all back to normal.
    Because he clearly missinterpreted what i told . Since im not expert in economy will leave this section to the people who are experts in the subjet. i just shared my view about How Russia
    waste money and how it creates the economic problem it gets.


    OminousSpudd
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 806
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2015-01-03
    Age : 21
    Location : Nelson, New Zealand

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  OminousSpudd on Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:I could say everyone with a view contrary to mine is a troll... if I ban everyone who does not agree with me then we end up with a forum of yes men, where I post my opinion and everyone agrees.

    I don't like arguments... the old saying of arguing with an idiot on the internet is a waste of time... they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    I am annoyed at people who blame everything on Putin, but then there are people who blame everything on the US or the Jews or aliens or Muslims.  I can't stop ignorance, no matter how much I ban.

    As shown by an obvious return idiot, do we keep banning over and over as they keep returning with different usernames?

    IP bans are not the answer as you can just unplug your router and then plug back in as most companies have a range of IP addresses that are assigned dynamically, so when they reconnect they will be allocated a new IP address.


    Damn... It's sad but true. Mods have ignored the trolls, while punishing legitimate posters, every bloody thread is broken up by ignored posts now.

    I object to that comment Spudd... what legitimate or illegitimate posters have been punished by a mod?

    I apologize for the generalization, overall you have been fine (in my short time here, and my opinion) with the posters that have added to the forum. What or who I mainly meant was the blatant slamming of Militarov for that WiB article... It just seems like double standards when there are multiple people quoting sources with incorrect or propagandist fantasy, yet go largely ignored by admins, and I do not understand having different expectations for different people. At the end of the day, should we not all post to relatively the same standards, so as to keep the integrity of the forum? You stuck to your guns with Militarov even though he didn't even believe the article he had posted, unlike many of the other members here: Ultron and his crew of bot accounts, Vann7 occasionally, Solcenepek, Rmf etc. Militarov was otherwise a high quality poster, and although you never took physical action against his account, he decided that he was being treated poorly considering the circumstances (the surrounding aforementioned trolls), an opinion the majority of us were inclined to agree with (I know it's not a democracy, but there is often merit to someone's point if other well established and respected members are taking the same view).

    As an example, Rmf has been debunked numerous times by Big_Gazza and crew, yet he still believes the same tripe, and continues to clog up the threads with propaganda, I simply can not understand the tolerance towards these members, yet a seeming intolerance when valued contributors post "know your enemy" links.

    Rmf
    Master Sergeant
    Master Sergeant

    Posts : 380
    Points : 375
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Rmf on Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:51 pm

    will you stop mentioning me in any context ,ever again. noob.
    i have 300ish posts 2 times less then you and yet your constant so called ""flood""b.s. is getting annoying.

    gaza didnt debunk anything , 0 proof , not 1 link from you so stop b.s. trolling....i actually destroyed him on many things.
    and i am reporting you for mobbing other users.

    jhelb
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 418
    Points : 482
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  jhelb on Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:32 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Agreed, this place has turned to crap long ago. Trolls flood the place with trash which convinces both frequent users and casual lurkers to avoid this forum but mods just ignore and support them.

    I am done too. I will be keeping account for the sake of ignore function but I have finished with wasting my time posting content here.

    Enjoy Ultron's company and his intelligent contributions.  

    Adios!

    Plz give me the name of at least one forum that's devoid of trolls? These trolls are just a bunch of pathetic hack desperate for relevance.

    Why would you take a troll's obvious bait? Learn to ignore them. DO NOT reply to their posts. End of matter. Period.

    OminousSpudd wrote: I simply can not understand the tolerance towards these members, yet a seeming intolerance when valued contributors post "know your enemy" links.

    But that's the beauty of this forum my friend. If posters would have been banned for airing their views this forum would have been called mp.net or keys or F16.net.

    If you respond to these trolls & help them gain the attention that they desperately seek you are actually becoming an accessory to trolling.

    Ignore these fools, grow up. What do you think the "Ignore List" function of this forum is for?

    Werewolf
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5390
    Points : 5639
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:43 pm

    Seriously are you guys stuck with your heads in your own arse and listening to your own shit or is your brain just dislocated from the rest of your heads?

    Nobody fucking gives a shit about people with opinion, people are fucking complaining about Trolls that are rampaging here with fucking DOZENS of fucking accounts and while mods/admin does not do jack shit despite having official forum rule for no double accounts you are just do not give a fuck about it. The consequence for not having consequences for forum abusers and forum rule breakers is they do what the fuck they want and you only encourage it by your shitty attitude like Garry said: "They will just make another account or reconnect to internet bla bla bloop". Fucking keep them banning untill they fucking get annoyed and quit for good.

    Use your brain for once or just see this turn to meaningless and then try to find another english speaking forum of russian equipment, good luck with that. Nobody says go ban everyone with different opinion you are just full of your own shit right now.

    OminousSpudd
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 806
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2015-01-03
    Age : 21
    Location : Nelson, New Zealand

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  OminousSpudd on Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:54 pm

    @Jhelb, Rmf.
    I wasn't even addressing anyone getting banned... I was asking for equal treatment. I wouldn't have thought that was so hard, maybe I am wrong.

    kvs
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2521
    Points : 2654
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:27 am

    I don't see a massive troll problem on this board. Perhaps I am not visiting the afflicted threads to see this.
    The Syria threads have some troll-ish posters but in my experience there will always be some and there is no
    swarm of them here. Dozens of accounts? Sorry but that cannot be true otherwise we would have several times
    more troll posts than regular posts. There are not that many regular posters on this board and they are not
    swamped.

    I guess everyone's troll sensitivity is different but the level of freaking about trolls that I see is excessive. Even
    if you see a troll get quoted that does not mean you have to read what they wrote. Troll post followups are
    sparse on this board.

    MP net was a steaming pile of trolls who were in effect the regular posters and the moderators themselves. This
    board is not like this at all (the mods do not troll at all) and people should not be so quick to flush it down the
    toilet and quit.

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3228
    Points : 3352
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:54 am

    Werewolf wrote:Seriously are you guys stuck with your heads in your own arse and listening to your own shit or is your brain just dislocated from the rest of your heads?

    Nobody fucking gives a shit about people with opinion, people are fucking complaining about Trolls that are rampaging here with fucking DOZENS of fucking accounts and while mods/admin does not do jack shit despite having official forum rule for no double accounts you are just do not give a fuck about it. The consequence for not having consequences for forum abusers and forum rule breakers is they do what the fuck they want and you only encourage it by your shitty attitude like Garry said: "They will just make another account or reconnect to internet bla bla bloop". Fucking keep them banning untill they fucking get annoyed and quit for good.

    Use your brain for once or just see this turn to meaningless and then try to find another english speaking forum of russian equipment, good luck with that. Nobody says go ban everyone with different opinion you are just full of your own shit right now.

    Now seriously you are trolling here..
    who have 12 accounts? Suspect Stop complaining and crying , is just a forum. If you don't
    like anyone post just use Ignore function and problem solved. Rolling Eyes

    Big_Gazza
    Lieutenant
    Lieutenant

    Posts : 508
    Points : 532
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:15 am

    Rmf wrote:gaza didnt debunk anything ....i actually destroyed him on many things.

    You think so?.... ffs.... whenever I try to give you the benefit of the doubt, you open your gob and make me regret it....

    jhelb
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 418
    Points : 482
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  jhelb on Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:14 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:@Jhelb, Rmf.
    I wasn't even addressing anyone getting banned... I was asking for equal treatment. I wouldn't have thought that was so hard, maybe I am wrong.

    Neither am I advocating a ban. All that I am saying is if you think a forum poster is trolling simply add that poster to your ignore list.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15468
    Points : 16175
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:54 am

    Seph i think he got mad , because he believed i was downplaying Russia capabilities in technology as no idea how he got that impression.

    I think seph got mad because we keep having the same discussions with you over and over... Russia is not the US and it is all Putins fault seems to be your point of view.

    When we try to tell you Russia does not need to emulate the US and be more US than the US... because that would actually be a bad thing rather than a good thing.

    Russia needs to find its own way... the measure of Russias success is not how popular Russia becomes in western media and western pop culture, nor is it how many TVs are made in Russia that hang on the walls of my home.

    Russia will always be the boogey man in western media because Russia is not the west... Russia has a choice... it can either be the boogeyman, or it can be irrelevant and largely ignored like it was in the 1990s... I know which is better for Russia.

    Since i my only complain is Putin internal Policies with Russia economy. how he waste so much money in things i feel Russia dont need.

    Have not seen the polls for your popularity, but the polls for Putin suggest that most Russians are happy with his choices... and I think that is what matters.

    I mean no disrespect for disagreeing with you, you are entitled to your opinion.

    i just shared my view about How Russia
    waste money and how it creates the economic problem it gets.

    It could solve all its international economic problems overnight... it just has to let foreign... read western oil companies into Russia and let them do what they like where they like and America will love their new Russian allies... as long as they step into line and love Israel unconditionally and hate Iran and North Korea and their friends and allies.

    Russia is better off with poor economic ties with the west... it can create ties with the rest of the worlds economies and be economically successful.

    What or who I mainly meant was the blatant slamming of Militarov for that WiB article... It just seems like double standards when there are multiple people quoting sources with incorrect or propagandist fantasy, yet go largely ignored by admins, and I do not understand having different expectations for different people.

    If someone like Flagship Victory or Ultron or Resistance posts an article about Russian aircraft getting shot down in enormous numbers in Syria while trying to kill innocent civilians I should ban them but if Militarov should post the same article I should just ignore it because he was being ironic?

    Militarov was a good contributor to this forum, but if he is going to start posting shit and then defending a right to post shit because other members do the same then I am not allowed to post my opinion that what he posted was shit?

    Not when confronted about what he posted he didn't say he just posted it for a laugh at the ignorance of the author... he said he posted it because it had a few good points.

    I thought Zivo had the best reply... he took the article to pieces showing there was very little of any worth at all.

    At the end of the day, should we not all post to relatively the same standards, so as to keep the integrity of the forum?

    We all should... but we don't.

    You stuck to your guns with Militarov even though he didn't even believe the article he had posted, unlike many of the other members here: Ultron and his crew of bot accounts, Vann7 occasionally, Solcenepek, Rmf etc.

    I stuck to my guns because I expected better than that shit from him. Someone with lessor knowledge might post such an article and ask us to pick it to pieces to find anything relevant, but that is not what he did. He posted crap and then tried to defend his right to post crap by saying others post crap here.

    Militarov was otherwise a high quality poster, and although you never took physical action against his account, he decided that he was being treated poorly considering the circumstances (the surrounding aforementioned trolls), an opinion the majority of us were inclined to agree with

    I think Papadragon and JohnMK agree with you as they both continue to post shit articles from War is boring. I don't bother pointing it out as it is just my opinion that the articles they point out are crap and if they want to lower the tone with such garbage who am I to tell them what to post here... I am not the content police.

    Of course I am a member too so if the mood takes me and if they post crap like the Russian AF is killing innocent civilians and is losing half their aircraft in Syria rather than just posting a link I might reply with a WTF are you posting this shit here reply... or I might just lower my expectations of what to expect from those two posters.

    Militarov surprised me with that article... I was disappointed, and asked for a reason why he posted such rubbish... to my surprise his reply was that other people post similar drivel so why can't he.

    He was defending a right to lower the tone... perhaps he is having problems at home or at work.

    I haven't banned him, but I really now realise I don't understand him.

    As an example, Rmf has been debunked numerous times by Big_Gazza and crew, yet he still believes the same tripe, and continues to clog up the threads with propaganda, I simply can not understand the tolerance towards these members, yet a seeming intolerance when valued contributors post "know your enemy" links.

    You can lead a horse to water by you can't make them drink.

    To help with your understanding... I did respect Militarov, which is why I expected more from him... both in terms of what he posts, and what he defends as his right to post.

    If he wants to post from War is boring and that david ax guy then I wont stop him but I will post my opinion of those shit articles and what an ignorant prick this david ax guy is.


    Why would you take a troll's obvious bait? Learn to ignore them. DO NOT reply to their posts. End of matter. Period.

    Exactly... you can discuss all you want but you can't make them right.

    DOZENS of fucking accounts and while mods/admin does not do jack shit despite having official forum rule for no double accounts you are just do not give a fuck about it.

    What is your fixation about multiple accounts?

    The most common rules broken on this forum are rules 13 and rules 16.

    The consequence for not having consequences for forum abusers and forum rule breakers is they do what the fuck they want and you only encourage it by your shitty attitude like Garry said: "They will just make another account or reconnect to internet bla bla bloop". Fucking keep them banning untill they fucking get annoyed and quit for good.

    The only purpose for a double account is to allow you to get away with breaking the rules so when the rule breaking account is banned they just swap to one of their other accounts.

    WTF... I haven't banned anyone for ages... so why bother making extra accounts if you are not going to get banned.

    Perhaps you might have a point if we kept getting new account users that blatantly break the rules and get banned... quickly followed by new account uses with the same behaviour that also get banned.

    When no one is getting banned then what is the point of having multiple accounts?

    BTW I have no way of seeing IP addresses.

    I wasn't even addressing anyone getting banned... I was asking for equal treatment. I wouldn't have thought that was so hard, maybe I am wrong.

    Nobody has been banned... isn't that equal treatment?

    OK, I am going to leave this post here for a day or two and then I am going to prune this thread of all this off topic stuff.

    Back on topic please.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3228
    Points : 3352
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:00 am



    I think seph got mad because we keep having the same discussions with you over and over... Russia is not the US and it is all Putins fault seems to be your point of view.

    When we try to tell you Russia does not need to emulate the US and be more US than the US... because that would actually be a bad thing rather than a good thing.



    Im not saying Gary that Russia needs to be United States. All i am saying is that
    Russia needs to Compete with American business ,in such a way ,that it can become
    and alternative to Americans in a few but very good and and important business.




    Russia needs to find its own way... the measure of Russias success is not how popular Russia becomes in western media and western pop culture, nor is it how many TVs are made in Russia that hang on the walls of my home.


    and here i agree with you.. Russia have to find its own way.
    But is not going to do that by following the american world. by following the american
    rules , by using American Internet ,by following the american banking industry and by not doing anything to lead in business.

    This is because Russia will be unable to "find its own way" ,while dependent on the american
    world. see?  Americans will never leave alone Russia to make money ,and create a powerful army. it will use everything they have to collapse Russia. Fortunately until now Russia
    is holding the economic warfare. But i don't think this is the best the west can do to damage
    Russia economy. it could be much worse. Imagine Russia disconnected from the american banking system.will have no way to trade with Europe.  or Russia disconnected from internet?


    So i agree with you ,Russia better do something as start putting into action what you say. to find its own way by creating its own world and no longer depending on Americans
    for anything.

    1)Because Russia design its Economy ,around the American world.
    Russia needs to be Popular not only in Russia..but also in the west too..

    Russia develop its nation around the american world ,it use American Internet,
    it use American controlled banking System ,It use American controlled Politics called United Nations. participate in wallstreet ,and its neighbors all of them follows too the American world. So because Russia participate in the American game. IT NEEDS TO COMPETE .
    why it needs to compete?.. to survive  and weaken american business leadership in the world.

    Russia cannot ignore americans ,economic war on Russia,or how they are aligning the world against Russia.

    and how Russia ignores Americans ?
    By not leading ,by not competing. by being happy with easy profit business ,that nobody cares.
    By not creating very influential business for the western average society.
    This does not means to stop doing easy business , only to not ignore
    that it also needs to compete with Americans in the business that allows them to influence more
    the world.

    So Russia cannot be happy with just a growing GDP again, is not enough. it needs to influence
    Europe too , because of #1... and better it will be if Russian business influence Americans society too. (as Russia space program is doing) But that Mr Putin the UnWISE president have chosen to reduce its budget.  Allowing americans to catchup Russia in the only Business Russia was managing to get some respect and some attention  in the world . Neutral

    because Russia REFUSE to compete with Americans most influential Business , it is happy with making money selling food , happing with selling gas at discount.. then it become DISRESPECTED in the world.   RUSSIA MAKES NOTHING  says Obama. and the majority of
    people in the west believe it too.  Because when it comes to their NEEDS.. the needs of the average citizens ,who influence their governments  ,Russia offers NOTHING to Americans society or to European Society ,offers nothing that will make anyone in the west.. Pick Russia
    over United States when it comes to business that and nation development.  

    In the other Hand Americans cannot be isolated ,because everyone needs Internet that americans controls. Everyone needs its computers, everyone/majority wants its Apple products . etc etc etc etc etc. Everyone loves american entertainment industry. including Russians.
    and its the highest economy in the world ,cheating or not , it is.  So this is the major point im
    i have been trying to explain. that Russia is not doing a lot to compete and offer an alternative
    to the american world. and why Russia needs to compete with Americans?.. Go back to 1)
    Because Russia development of its nation is based around the american world ,American Business and American laws.


    So Russia have either.. To Disconnect from the American World. Nationalize its banks ,no longer
    use Dollar or american Internet and create its own World. or they either stay in the American world and competes with them ,to counter American most influential business. and here is the
    major issue. Americans Influence Enormously the Russian society with its business. This means
    that the Russian government is Doomed. it have to do something really Horrible. it needs to compete with American business. This is IF Russia do not want to continue to be humiliated
    in the world as American does and does not want to be under sanctions for ever. All because
    Russia have failed to compete with Americans in the business that more influence they have.
    with the exception of SPACE.. where Russia competes.. but is not taking advantage of it. Is allowing americans to catch up them. So Russia keeps doing safe Business that are very easy and very low risk , which is nothing wrong with that.. but they ignore to compete with Americans in the business that could allow Russia to become more attractive to Europeans in the world and finally convince Europe to leave the american Business world and create a new one with Russia.  And why Russia needs to convince Europe? Go back to #1.
    Because Russia competes in the American world and under their rules. and if want to compete there needs to ,defeat Americans in more places that none ,with its business. So that Americans lose its Power of Influence over Europe and no longer Russia experience sanctions or proxy wars
    that damage Russia economy . If Russia had the influence that Japan have in the world ,it will
    have been very difficult for Americans to do any sanctions on Russia at all.  and NATO will not
    even exist.


    This is all the problem with Russia economy . Is not that their business are wrong.
    Is not that they need to increase the RICE production , Is not Kudrin ,Is not
    that needs to sell more potatoes. because americans can hit anything they want and send
    to the button the prices of anything ,just to damage Russia economy.

    Is not that they need to sell more gas or Oil.. Notice how Americans Collapsed the prices of OIL to sabotage Russia economy . Is not that Russia needs to move to ASIA ,which also plays in the american world.  Is that Russia Plays in the American world ,but do very little ,to be seen as a potential alternative to American Business . Is an influence problem. what Russia have.
    Where Americans influence even Russian society with its business. But Russia influence in Nothing the american society or the European one.. with the only exception of a business
    that Putin is reducing is budget by 30%.   Rolling Eyes

    So Putin complain and complain every week about missile shield ,every week about NATO.
    every week about sanctions . complaining that Europe is following American leadership and is ignoring Russia. why would europe do that? it is because american get a gun and point to their faces? no. .it is because Russia is not seen as an alternative to United States. Russia does not lead.  does not offer a roadmap for Europe to follow. Simply Russia does not lead ,and Americans do it.  Russia cannot even get any of its allies to help them in Syria. So is a leadership problem. no more and no less. Russia have some leadership ,only because of its powerful military, and its competitiveness in space ,but is not enough to convince
    Europe to create an alliance with Russia and not follow NATO or United States.


    Have not seen the polls for your popularity, but the polls for Putin suggest that most Russians are happy with his choices... and I think that is what matters.

    Sure this is were Putin have been effective. In Ratings , but is not about Russians ,where Putin needs to work .. is about the west. where Russia popularity is low ,why the west? and not east? go back to #1. Because Russia *follows* the american world ,the american rules , and not
    on its own world. then it needs to compete there ,in the american world. and the easier way to defeat americans is by luring Europeans closer to Russia. but the only way Russia can do that is with Spectacular very popular Business.


    So by competing in American world , Russia is vulnerable to American Rules ,American cheats , American sanctions , etc. And American Humilliation. if Russia do not want to compete with americans. then it needs to move away , and create its own world. Nationalize its bank ,no longer use dollar or Euros ,creates its own internet.. etc. And build an alliance that can live without American business and without they nations American business controls.

    If Russia was as good in civilian business ,as it is on its defense industry is in military technology  , Then none of this economic problems will be happening. because Europe will not be following Americans.. but Russia ,creating a new Russian world , abandoning the american world model.  Americans and Europe will be fighting to get the exclusivity of the business with Russia. And Russia will stop following Amerians and will start leading in the world ,creating a new Russian world.

    I can summarize this in simply terms , by saying.

    Countries in this planet ,can do only 3 things.. It can lead , it can follow or it can be north korea.
    That is to be completely isolated from the world. But it is possible to Lead inside the American
    world.. or to Lead outside of the American world. But Russia is leading in none. BRICS was a good step in the right direction. to start leading.but as long Putin allows Americans to steal the show in Business in the world and only focus in easy ,low risk business like energy and agriculture ,then BRICS have no chance to take off ,because their influence in the world will be very poor. Look how easy Americans weaken BRICS by taking down Dilma in brazil and replacing her with a PRO AMERICAN puppet. That will leave Russia only with 2 nations China and India and the only solid powers and they themselves are influenced a LOT by American business.  lol1


    So Russia is choosing to follow the American world. To follow American Banking system , To Follow American International Rules , Rules that Americans and their friends are not bound to follow , but that Russia is bound. And later Putin Complains the west does not listen Russia or take Russia seriously.. when he dont see , His own policies in how he develops Russia are the one to blame for that , for not creating as you say Gary. "His own way" , just like Soviet Union tried to do at least.. but forgot about the human rights part.  

    So because Russia follows to play in the American way, and not Russian way , and seek to participate in the American Banking System , with American controlled international rules and american controlled internet.  Then Russia will continue being a shadow of the Americans
    in the world and a nation disrespected by the west.
    ,and will face economic sanction and economic problems ,if continues to stay in the comfort waters of doing easy low risk  Business ,and allow Americans to continue stealing the show and lead the development in the world in Business and refuse to counter or at least offer a decent alternative to Americans most popular business in the world.


     IF Russia refuse to be leader in the civilian Business in the world, like Japan,Germany,South Korea are in many things. then it will face serious problems of being its interest respected in the world. Because Europe is not going to risk ,its business with Americans that leads.. for the business of Russia and the so called "Asian Pivot" is not going to solve this. Because Asia follows the American business world too.


    So Russia economic problems ,what they are really telling Russia.. is that Russia needs to lead. and need to stop depending on the west. that Russia needs to be truly Independent.
    Not only independent in military ,but also independent too in technology and entertainment too.
    and why technology and entertainment are so important? because are the business that more
    influence society in the world. much more than selling apples or coconuts. Laughing

    In an ideal world ,were all nations respect each other , any business will be good ,it will not matter. but we dont live in that world. we live in a world where leaders take it all ,and followers
    its interest are not respected.

    The Largest Engineering company in Europe , in transportation ,technology for scientific industries,hospitals ,and generation of electricity --Germany Siemens , Told that Russia needs an Industrial Revolution. and they are 100% correct.  Im sure Europe will be more than happy
    to help Russia ,to create that. in order for them to be free again ,from the American dictatorship.

    So Putins vision of Russia is wrong. Russia needs an industrial revolution. and not to sell
    more energy or more organic food in the world. and not to be better in sports.

    . Russia needs to become a decent ,alternative to United States. And it doesn't need to do it alone. it could create an technology alliance with China ,India do achieve that.. See?  and it will receive a LOT of help from Europe too and Russia have good relations with Japan ,so it will be
    an spectacular alliance.  In fact Russia could try to pull Japan into BRICS and replace brazil. and create a technology united business alliance withing that organization. So alternatives there are.
    it just the lack of vision of Putin's of what it needs to do to counter Americans ,what's makes more difficult things for Russia development in the world.

    as long Putin ,continues to allow American business to win the hearts of Europeans
    and Russian citizens.. then Russia government will continue being disrespected its interest
    in the world. Will continue to see Euromaidans at its borders or in Russia. will continue to see
    Europe to ignore Russia interest. and with economic warfare from the west. and speaking
    about 5th column and traitors. is a problem of Influence .  Russia try to pulls Europe away
    of the american world ,to stop them following NATO and American policies , but have nothing
    attractive enough to offer back to Europe in change .

    But.. is not all lost.. Americans leaders are doing terrible mistakes too.. So there is hope.
    But it shouldn't be that way. The future of Russia ,should not depend on the mistakes of American leaders policies , or what could be called LUCK. Russia can do better if took very seriously the competition with Americans most popular business.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:18 pm; edited 6 times in total

    RTN
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 185
    Points : 170
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield , CT

    Pruned posts from economic thread TEMP

    Post  RTN on Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Nobody has been banned... isn't that equal treatment?

    OK, I am going to leave this post here for a day or two and then I am going to prune this thread of all this off topic stuff.

    I suspect these guys who are complaining are kids. They have set their expectations based on what they see on other forums. I remember on forums like MP.NET & F16.NET you could get banned simply for criticising Lockheed or Boeing.

    So these kids believe every time you criticise Russia, or Putin or the Russian Military Industrial Complex you should get banned. Thank goodness this hasn't happened so far, thanks to the MODS & ADMIN thumbsup and I hope that's how it remains.

    You can always criticise without being disrespectful. These kids will learn as they age.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15468
    Points : 16175
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:48 am

    It is very unhealthy to be above criticism...

    Look up the definition of "Yes Men" and you will see it is a real problem where criticism is not acceptable so the leaders feel they can do no wrong... and typically end up doing very wrong things but no one will tell them what they are doing is wrong until everything goes tits up so to speak and everyone loses their job... and usually their life savings...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2193
    Points : 3099
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:28 pm

    RTN wrote:

    I suspect these guys who are complaining are kids. They have set their expectations based on what they see on other forums. I remember on forums like MP.NET & F16.NET you could get banned simply for criticising Lockheed or Boeing.

    So these kids believe every time you criticise Russia, or Putin or the Russian Military Industrial Complex you should get banned. Thank goodness this hasn't happened so far, thanks to the MODS & ADMIN  thumbsup and I hope that's how it remains.

    You can always criticise without being disrespectful. These kids will learn as they age.

    There isn't much point having a forum if everyone thinks the same way.


    _________________
    The true value of life knows only the paratrooper. For he is more likely to look death in the eye.  -- Vasily Margelov

    RTN
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 185
    Points : 170
    Join date : 2014-03-24
    Location : Fairfield , CT

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  RTN on Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:12 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:There isn't much point having a forum if everyone thinks the same way.

    Exactly, that's what I said in my last post. However the "Russia Strong" crowd in this forum are intolerant to even the slightest criticism of Russia, especially Putin

    This is despite the fact that these Russia Strong forum members choose not to reside in Russia for some unknown reason though they pass themselves off Russians Very Happy

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15468
    Points : 16175
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:51 am

    Well, I am probably part of the Russia Strong crowd, though I have never claimed to be Russian... I don't say Putin is perfect, but I object when everything is Putins fault... whether it is a plot to murder some nobody in London, or to dope all Russian athletes to get the victory in the olympic games.

    Lance Armstrong was a drugs cheat and cheated successfully for decades... you can't tell me he developed the drugs on his own... how about punishment for the drug companies that sell illegal drugs? Or at least some investigation as to how they get them in the first place. I am not suggesting a blanket ban on all American athletes... drug cheats and athletes who have never failed a drug test all in the same ban like the western based authorities are with Russia...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    GunshipDemocracy
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1516
    Points : 1558
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:03 am

    RTN wrote:
    So these kids believe every time you criticise Russia, or Putin or the Russian Military Industrial Complex you should get banned. Thank goodness this hasn't happened so far, thanks to the MODS & ADMIN  thumbsup and I hope that's how it remains.

    You can always criticise without being disrespectful. These kids will learn as they age.

    in short for them there is not enough Putin in Putin? Smile

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3228
    Points : 3352
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:11 pm


    GarryB wrote: "They are not in a hurry" to get it into service in enormous numbers because they don't need enormous numbers of them.

    They are not making thousands of PAK FAs because they don't need thousands of PAK FAs... I think the Su-35 is a far better counter to NATO F-35s anyway.



    Please stop with your non sense.
    They training for evacuation of 40 million of civilians. So if that doesn't Ring an emergency to you ,then no idea what's is wrong with your logic.  Russia is in a state of very highly potential war even more dangerous that the one Soviets times . And contrary to Soviet times , here NATO is pushing for provoking Russia into a war in many fronts at same time ,and far from its borders. All that it takes for it to start a major war is a happy trigger general that attack a Russian warship or submarine or plane. So if Pak-FA was invented for the defense of Russia , to guarantee air supremacy , then i can't image a better time ,than NOW!!!! and not in the future for them to having them in Service.  Americans have near 200 F-22 that could be put in Service
    in no time.  and being upgraded and they can carry nuclear weapons, and those will give a major problem to Russia airforce with the ridiculous low numbers of Su-35 Russia have in the few dozens. And lets not go to the Armata T-14 , Russia also needs them.. NOW.. Russia needs Pak-fa and T-14s in the hundreds at very least ,but in reality needs a thousand or two ,and right now ,and not tomorrow or the next week or next year. because Russia face a real state of war NOW.. and not in the future. So why would you say Russia have enough planes and that their 40 or 50 Su-35 can handle near 200 F-22 + NATO airforces is Pure NON SENSE. Russia with all its airforce will be in a 20 to 1 outnumbered to NATO if not more when it comes to modern airforce with modern electronics and radars And to think NATO will fight under ideal conditions for Russia ,is foolishness , In a world war 3 , NATO will force Russia to fight far from its borders ,to create logistical problems for them ,and will fight in as many frontlines as possible ,To significantly reduce Russia capabilities to fight. and this is EXACTLY what NATO is doing today.
    NATO is fighting Russia..
    1)In Ukraine...check
    2)In Syria.... check.

    But this is far from what they can do ,it can provoke more fronts, like TUrkey already shot down Russian plane, Israel, Moldova,Serbia,Armenia ,Georgia,Egypt,Tajikistan ,or even Scandinavia or Kalingrad ,NATO could provoke wars there to bleed Russia to death in wars everywhere. So Russia needs as many Pak-FA or Armatas as they can build IF Russia was piece of mind that is ,that no matter how many front lines NATO support against Russia,That Russia will handle it without problems. but Now that is not the case. Russia can barely hold in Syria. and being slapped in the face there at times.. So you tell me that Russia does not need Pak-fa now and that SU-35 ,the few Russia have are enough?  NON SENSE.  Russia needs to be Prepared for
    a total war with NATO right this year in 2016.. So it will make sense for Russia to have a very lethal Airforce and Army with conventional force ,that can overwhelm NATO in any place. Because again Russia cannot use nukes and risk they fall in the wrong place and kill millions of civilians in cities . So this is why Russia needs to be very strong ,much more than NATO in conventional force too.This is because Russia face war , right Now from NATO ,and is only proxy ,but it will be a matter of time it will become a direct one ,if things dont change.

    Wars That could happen with Ukraine and or Baltics and or Turkey and or US and or UK and or Moldova if invade Transnistria and or to counter Israel.. so many places that Russia will save many lives or even avoid it ,if they had a very strong number of modern planes and tanks deployed there. So that Russia can become a major deterrence with conventional power too. and not be so limited with their nukes ,that will not be ideal to use them first ,because NATO can later use a Russia first use of nuclear weapons ,to claim on its media is bombing million of civilians . Russia will not mind to have a clear major domination, in tanks inventory and Air supremacy to avoid a war before it start.  .. and for the only Reason Russia does not have them in the Hundreds or a thousand numbers is because Russia economy is not there. . Russia even need more Submarines way more and Pak-FA now.. not tomorrow.  So stop the Non sense ,that Russia "don't need them."  because thats not true.  Russia needs to be very strong ,if they want to become a major deterrence for NATO ,not only with nuclear weapons ,but also conventional weapons.

    It was people like YOU garry ,who were saying day and night.. oh noo.. .No one is going to attack Russia since they have nuclear weapons.. then guess what? Turkey shot down a Russian Pilot and did it intentionally and to provoke Russia into a war. So in what way Russia nukes serve as a deterrence to Turkey ? In none.. Because Erdogan knows Putin is weak President and cares a lot of public opinion and sanctions and cannot use nukes against its enemy unless is attacked with Nukes first.  So Russia depends strongly on its Conventional forces ,tanks and airforce to counter NATO.. and its nukes is only to counter the use of nuclear weapons against Russia.  Russia DO needs hundreds if not a thousand of Pak-fa planes ,to fight against NATO.
    Because you cannot say it will never happen, it can. And the only reason Russia does not have them is because of Economic limitations , nothing more and nothing else. But Russia needs a very strong army .. not that is "good enough" as you claim.. but one that is overwhelming superior in numbers and technology that can overwhelm NATO in a domestic war any time .
    This is because the only Thing the west Respect is overwhelming force . They are picking low to medium level fights with Russia ,because they know Russia will not use nuclear of any NATO city ,risking civilians in a meaningful way to stop a war if they are not attacked with nukes first.

    So Russia do needs as many Pak-fa and armatas and pak-da as they can. Not in the future
    but right now ,that Russia is facing a state of war. stop the nonsense that Russia is good enough now.. because is not . "Good enough" , is a myth.. such a thing doesn't exit for Russia today in a fight with NATO. We only need to look at the embarrassing performance of Russia with Georgia and this was even told by medvedev ,where Russia lost a thousand soldiers to a small third world nation like Georgia.  If NATO does what is trying to do ,and Clinton have been hinting will do.. that is provoke a full scale war in Ukraine and Syria . Then Russia will be forced at the same time a war in no less than 2 fronts. and guess what? Russia cannot use nuclear weapons against Ukraine , because it could potentially kill civilians or poison them with radiation .then you have crazy Erdogan ,an ISIS fanatic that could start a full scale war against Syria and Russia a conventional war. Then Russia cannot start using nuclear weapons against Turkey cities . Because that will justify NATO to retaliate with nukes Russia etc and they will claim is because Russia is using nukes against civilians. So Russia not only need a very powerful Nuclear force ,but also a very powerful modern Airforce ,with hundreds if not at least a thousand of Pak-Fa planes and a thousand of Armata ,just in case Russia is forced to fight NATO in a conventional war.  In world war 2 , that war will have never ended if Russia does not invade Germany capital and put a flag in Berlin. So Russia needs to be prepared ,even if you think it will not happen ,for a war against NATO and being forced to invade them to stop them. So this is why you cannot say Russia have "good enough" anything. Russia does not have the Airforces or Tank force to capture Kiev ,Ankara at same time ,without horrendous casualties. And the only thing Russia can win a conventional war with NATO , is by having Modern Tanks and Pak-fa in the hundreds if not a couple of thousands For a very quick victory.  This is because what Russia have today is not good enough for that.  Russia cannot think in defense of its nation only , and needs to think in very potential wars it could face ,far away of its territory to defend its interest as they doing in Syria and as they will have to do in Egypt and Serbia that will be attacked too. By NATO freedom terror fighters.

    What you fail to understand
    is that Russia nuclear weapons is deterrence against NATO use of nuclear weapons.
    But not a deterrence against Nations like Turkey or Ukraine. people who cares NOT SHIT
    about civilians being nuked by Russia since they do not care about its people , So because Russia cannot use nukes against kiev or Ankara.. for the major legal problems it could face
    if kill millions civilians ,it will be forced to use only conventional forces. And only having an overwhelming conventional force , like a Thousand of Pak-FA and many thousands of ARmata tanks can guarantee Russia a very fast war ,a very fast victory with next to no casualties. Having Big numbers of modern military will help Russia to overwhelm the enemy very fast
    in any conventional war and force him to peace ,when Russian tanks in their capital.
    Time is everything in wars ,and delaying things and allowing your enemy to regroup or develop a strategy is not good against an invasion of a NATO country. To fight in 3 or 4 front lines at same times from kaliningrad to Syria to Caucausus and Far east Russia will need at least 5,000 armata tanks to have overwhelming force ,while at the same time have all its borders protected ,and even have them in reserve too .So Russia can deploy in all potential battlefields if forced to fight in many places at same time as NATO is clearly seeking to achieve . but you dont see. If you think Ukraine and Syria is concidence ,then you are seriously behind in understanding what is NATO strategy against Russia. To overwhelm it in many fronts at same time , destabilize all its borders and all the nations Russia have interest to force Russia to interfere and becoming weakened ,something Russia could avoid if had a very overwhelming conventional but also nuclear force to effectively take the fight directly to their powerful enemies . Russia simply needs to be prepared to take the fight Directly to its most powerful enemies ,and that can only be achieved with an overwhelming conventional modern force. Otherwise will continue Russia facing Proxy wars with Alqaeda and ISIS or wars against border nations, endlessly being armed in Russia noses by NATO ,to fight for decades against Russia . So not is not enough , as you claim. Russia military capabilities are only designed to fight an invasion on Russia ,but not to take the fight to their enemies and invade and capture a major NATO power and overthrow its Government by force. So Russia needs to build as many Pak-fa as possible , 500 , 1000 or 2,000. or even more. Because it have a very large nation to protect and cannot have all those planes in the same place . And cannot rely Russia anymore in a defensive war only ,and sooner or later if things dont change Russia will need to take the war directly to NATO ,for what they are doing in Ukraine and Syria. And possibly even Russia will have to prepare to invade NATO too ,as they did with Hitler. Because when you have a tyrant in power ,wars dont end until he is removed by force. So yes Russia does not have such capabilities now , but it have to think plan for it ,whether it like it or not. If want to really protect Russia ,and force them to stop any criminal action against their nation ,then there is nothing better than to take the fight directly
    to them ,and not continue playing embarrasing and weak games like in Syria allowing Alqaeda to continue bombing civilians,of pretending is not a war with NATO and that all is just a "misconception" or "misunderstanding".  IF trump doesn't wins the elections , i don't see
    how Russia will avoid a war with US if clinton elected. Since she have already told in every debate ,she will kick Russia out of Syria and Ukraine too, by force ,by giving lethal weapons to their Alqaeda "moderates" and their Ukraine nazis allies. Moral of the story ,for a WAR with NATO ,Russia will never have "good enough" army or airforce or Navy. it needs to get as many military modern weapons it can, as many planes and tanks and warships, without going bankrupt. because contrary to what you believe ,a world war 3 cannot be predicted ,how bad could be ,and how many theaters of Battle Russia will be forced to fight. Im sure the Pentagon ,
    will try to get as many front lines as possible with violence and war , to take advantage of Russia military weakness ,that is out numbered by the west.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15468
    Points : 16175
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:32 am

    They training for evacuation of 40 million of civilians. So if that doesn't Ring an emergency to you ,then no idea what's is wrong with your logic.

    That is what civil defence does. That is what they do.

    Sailors on a ship also train for fires... it is a precaution so they know what to do in the worst case scenario. Not that they expect their ship to suddenly burst into flames.

    Russia is in a state of very highly potential war even more dangerous that the one Soviets times . And contrary to Soviet times , here NATO is pushing for provoking Russia into a war in many fronts at same time ,and far from its borders.

    And even assuming that is right WTF difference would Russia spending 10 billion dollars making a few hundred PAK FAs do to change that?

    Do you think the US and NATO would become more or less aggressive if Russia was stronger?

    Hint in the 1990s when Russia had lots of problems NATO and the US didn't notice they existed.

    happy trigger general that attack a Russian warship or submarine or plane. So if Pak-FA was invented for the defense of Russia , to guarantee air supremacy , then i can't image a better time ,than NOW!!!! and not in the future for them to having them in Service.  Americans have near 200 F-22 that could be put in Service
    in no time.  and being upgraded and they can carry nuclear weapons, and those will give a major problem to Russia airforce with the ridiculous low numbers of Su-35 Russia have in the few dozens. And lets not go to the Armata T-14 , Russia also needs them.. NOW..

    If it just took one trigger happy dick to start a war then we already would have had several wars.

    Russias conventional military power has nothing to do with whether war will start or not.

    So why would you say Russia have enough planes and that their 40 or 50 Su-35 can handle near 200 F-22 + NATO airforces is Pure NON SENSE.

    Russia does not need to fight and defeat NATO... it needs to be able to defend its own airspace and to be able to nuke Europe to the stone age... for that it does not need thousands of anything.

    NATO is fighting Russia..
    1)In Ukraine...check
    2)In Syria.... check.

    Bullshit.

    There are no Russian forces in the Ukraine and NATO forces are attacking non Russian targets in Syria.

    So you tell me that Russia does not need Pak-fa now and that SU-35 ,the few Russia have are enough?  NON SENSE.  

    So Russia gets trillions into debt and builds thousands of PAK FA and T-14... you idiot... NATO does not need to attack Russia anywhere... it owns Russia already... its economy would be in tatters.

    WTF difference would PAK FA do in Syria? In the Ukraine? The US has over stretched its force of F-22s... they are everywhere... oops, no they are not... they are expensive hangar queens they can't even use in Syria because S-400 will shoot them down.

    Because again Russia cannot use nukes and risk they fall in the wrong place and kill millions of civilians in cities .

    Nukes are to kill people... that is their purpose.

     Russia needs to be very strong ,if they want to become a major deterrence for NATO ,not only with nuclear weapons ,but also conventional weapons.

    Russia is strong and getting stronger. Luckily it is not stupid and making things it does not need... even if they had 1,000 PAK FA right now... who is going to fly them?

    It was people like YOU garry ,who were saying day and night.. oh noo.. .No one is going to attack Russia since they have nuclear weapons.. then guess what? Turkey shot down a Russian Pilot and did it intentionally and to provoke Russia into a war.

    And how would a much larger conventional Russian military force in Russia have changed that?

    The cowardly Turks shot down a Russian aircraft, while terrorists on the ground actually murdered two Russians... if they had PAK FAs there in Syria... what difference would it have made?

    The facts are that the Russians did not expect Turkey to interfere with its aircraft as they were there fighting terrorists. It turns out Turkey murdered those Russians and as a result the Russians took precautions... Su-30 and Su-35 escorts and S-400 SAM batteries... note none of which involves PAK FA fighters...

    So in what way Russia nukes serve as a deterrence to Turkey ? In none.. Because Erdogan knows Putin is weak President and cares a lot of public opinion and sanctions and cannot use nukes against its enemy unless is attacked with Nukes first.  So Russia depends strongly on its Conventional forces ,tanks and airforce to counter NATO.. and its nukes is only to counter the use of nuclear weapons against Russia.  Russia DO needs hundreds if not a thousand of Pak-fa planes ,to fight against NATO.

    The Russians were hammering Turkeys terrorist allies and Turkey took an action... an action they clearly recognise now to have been a mistake.

    Are you suggesting that Turkey shooting down a plane killing their allies equates to a threat to Russia that Russian defence forces need thousands of expensive stealth aircraft to defend themselves against?

    Really?

    This is because the only Thing the west Respect is overwhelming force . They are picking low to medium level fights with Russia ,because they know Russia will not use nuclear of any NATO city ,risking civilians in a meaningful way to stop a war if they are not attacked with nukes first.

    OK lets assume you are right... then only having nukes is the best solution... a NATO attack on Russia could only be responded to with a tactical nuclear attack... fuck NATO civilians... why should Russia not nuke a NATO city?

    Im sure the Pentagon ,
    will try to get as many front lines as possible with violence and war , to take advantage of Russia military weakness ,that is out numbered by the west.

    Bring it on... US "advisors" made little or no difference for the Georgian conflict... they likely got killed in Syria... why else would the west be bleating about Russia bombing Allepo? It was obviously the wests centre of operations for their special forces... that explains why the SA couldn't take it previously.
    Who gives a crap about the Ukraine... any of those Russians want to become Russian then declare it or move.

    Very simply the Russians have a rearmament plan which they are pretty much keeping to.

    They will never make thousands of PAK FAs for themselves... they simply don't need thousands of them and have no use for thousands of them... they don't even have use for thousands of planes already in storage.

    What they need to do is keep their heads and react as the west does stupid things like support terrorists in Syria. And I said react... not over react like start WWIII because some Turk pilot shot down a Fencer... even if it was under the personal order of the Turkish leader.

    That would not help Syria and it would not help Russia.

    Turkey has shown guts or is that common sense and realised that Syria has no future in the control of the opposition... which is just a bunch of hundreds of independent factions who don't like Assad.

    They apologised for what they did, and I assume some changes have been made.

    If Russia had just shot down a Turkish aircraft things would not be good for anyone.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Sponsored content

    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 8:49 pm


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:49 pm