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    Talking bollocks thread

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    TR1
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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  TR1 on Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:44 pm

    MoscowTimes is a joke.

    And the worst of the brain drain has passed, even if the government today is pretty damn far from ideal when it comes to helping the country develop to its full extent.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Regular on Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:42 am

    As mentioned before, brain drain was thing of the past. Now it's more important to boost interest in young generation and raise quality of higher studies.

    Soviet type education had it's downsides too. I've met people in Moscow with two degrees working jobs that require no higher education, but it pays more. Identical situation in my country, before EU borders where opened to get a job as a HGV driver You had to show Your uni diploma. Absurd.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:18 pm

    Hahaha... they say exactly the same thing here in New Zealand... it seems a lot of New Zealanders are moving to the larger warmer country next door and many politicians like to gain cheap points by demanding the government do something about it.

    Of course with the problems with their mines at the moment it is not so perfect over there.

    Many years ago a politician called Robert Muldoon said the movement of people from New Zealand to Australia increases the average IQ of both countries... Twisted Evil 


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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:45 am

    GarryB wrote:Many years ago a politician called Robert Muldoon said the movement of people from New Zealand to Australia increases the average IQ of both countries...  Twisted Evil 
    Even I heard that one before. Clever and classic quote Cool 

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  vK_man on Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:04 pm

    TR1 wrote:MoscowTimes is a joke.

    And the worst of the brain drain has passed, even if the government today is pretty damn far from ideal when it comes to helping the country develop to its full extent.

    Its a western outlet and the gibberish that many western outlets are writing on financial markets and the cover up of Libor rigging is astounding. I would recommend that take western outlets with grain of salt.These days citizen journalists are a lot better.


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    Cossackistan ?

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:55 am

    I was told by someone that Kasakistan is the capital from where all Cossacks originate..  is that is true?

    Also im Curious about Cossacks today that are proud Christian Orthodox that likes to defend their Land.. I have heard Cossacks
    Enemies are Jews and Muslins... and that they now help in security on caucasus..  the question is.. Are there Christian Cossacks
    in chechenia that are hired for security and help police?  How does the President of Chechenia and muslins in chechenia see Cossacks
    if they patrol in what many muslins consider as "their land" ?  

    Is interesting that Cossacks see Russia as their mother land ,and talk always about looking to defend it.. but muslin do not speak about
    Russia as their mother land.. for what i have seen on videos in youtube , it seems that chechens and other muslins do not feel about
    Russia as their motherland and instead they complain about Cossacks harassing them..Is something like Muslin patriotic about Russia as their motherland exist? it is normal?  does majority of muslins will switch sides and split from Russia at the first opportunity or do they see Russia as their mother land?

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:01 pm

    Ask yourself a question real quick...why would a Chechen think of Russia as his "motherland"?

    And no, there are no Christian militia patrolling Chechnya, Kadyrov has his boys looking after the place, with his own Islamic code of sorts.


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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Asf on Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:16 am

    I was told by someone that Kasakistan is the capital from where all Cossacks originate..  is that is true?

    Lol, that stupid western believe cossacks are somekind of a nation  Very Happy  Cossack was a class of people, not a nation.
    There is Kazakhstan (ex-soviet republic) though which has no relation to cossacks


    but muslin do not speak about Russia as their mother land.

    Some of them do. Some of them don't.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:14 pm

    Ask yourself a question real quick...why would a Chechen think of Russia as his "motherland"?

    Large numbers of Chechens fought to remain part of the Russian federation... perhaps they think of Chechnia as part of Russia and therefore at least a piece of Russia as their motherland?

    I doubt there is a single thing every single Chechen would agree upon...


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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  macedonian on Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:29 pm

    TR1 wrote:Ask yourself a question real quick...why would a Chechen think of Russia as his "motherland"?

    Well you live in America, you tell me:
    Why would a Native-American, Iraqi-American, African-American, Japanese-American etc (you get the point), call the USofA his "motherland"?
    Don't tell me there are none of the said people that believe the US is their "motherland", as I've met quite a few that do.

    [the] Ball is in your court Mister.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:30 pm

    You just grabbed a massive spectrum of people. Much more broad then Chechens, much more broad then even "Kavkaz" or "Muslims in Russia" in general.

    Iraqi-Americans immigrated to the US.
    Chechens did not immigrate to Russia. Russia expanded and conquered them, along the way commiting many crimes against the populace every several dozen years.

    Feel the difference? The Chechens certainly do. Go ahead and see how many of them feel Russia is their "mottherland". Their country, maybe more. But motherland? lol.


    Last edited by TR1 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:37 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Ask yourself a question real quick...why would a Chechen think of Russia as his "motherland"?

    Large numbers of Chechens fought to remain part of the Russian federation... perhaps they think of Chechnia as part of Russia and therefore at least a piece of Russia as their motherland?

    I doubt there is a single thing every single Chechen would agree upon...

    And more Chechens fought against Russia, then some were bought to fight in Russia's name.
    Not such a rosy picture.


    The Bolded part you would probably find a lot more people agreeing on...but "rodina" is a very different implication.
    There are a lot of people in Dagestan who wear cloths with Russian flags or something similar for example but I can tell you for fact most still consider themselves a very much separate people, but within the same legal borders. The distinction between a sense of country and origin is big. There is pretty much zero basis for someone from Kavkaz to feel like Russia is their motherland like for ethnic Russians.

    We are of course generalizing...

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  macedonian on Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:43 pm

    TR1 wrote:You just grabbed a massive spectrum of people.
    Indeed I did, and you, conveniently, chose to answer about Iraqis.
    How about the Native-Americans and the Japanese-Americans?
    The first were pretty much cleansed, the second put in camps solely because of their ethnicity.
    Will be waiting for your answer on that point too.

    TR1 wrote:Iraqi-Americans immigrated to the US.
    Chechens did not immigrate to Russia.
    From YouTube and LiveLeak, I'd say that's not true. Seen many, many Checchens in Moscow and Saint Pete.
    But you might know better.

    TR1 wrote:Russia expanded and conquered them, along the way commuting many crimes against the populace every several dozen years.
    Native-Americans were slaughtered in their MILLIONS. What used to be their land is now the USofA. Where you live.
    African-Americans were treated a bit worse than animals.

    TR1 wrote:Feel the difference? The Chechens certainly do. Go ahead and see how many of them feel Russia is their "mottherland". Their country, maybe more. But motherland? lol.
    I don't. That's what I'm saying...
    Where do I go in order to see how many of them consider Russia their "motherland"?
    Are you their spokesman or something? And what's the "LOL" for?

    Oh, and I'll refrain from answering your posts if you only choose a part of my question (the one that suits you) to answer to.
    You do that a lot, and it's not what I consider a healthy discussion. Actually it degrades the discussion quite a lot.
    Much obliged.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:50 pm

    1.) I was not loling @ you, but at the thought of Chechens (lets say most of them) declaring Russia to be their motherland. It is a funny concept.
    2.) Chechens in Moscow seeking work (legal and illegal) is a bit different then full scale immigration like that to the United States. Even then, go ahead and ask them what they feel about Russia. You would be surprised how many immigrants (Chechen and Central Asian) talk shit about Russia, not even going to talk about considering it their home....I chalk that up to economic condition (no brainer correlation there) and ethnic differences, not necessarily deep rooted hate of Russia, but still. It exists.
    3.) Yes, Blacks and Natives got the shaft in America, on a massive scale. That does not make Chechens feel any more "Russian" though, now does it? Plus, recent history (Chechen Wars) has not faded away. Native Americans have been stuffed on a few reservations, and most of the populations have long since died out- they don't really have much of a choice but to think of America as their home now (though I won't speak of this too much because frankly I don't know much or many Native Americans and their feelings on the US in 2014). Chechnya still exists, so does the Chechen people.
    4.) I am talking as a whole. There are exceptions, I am sure you can find Chechens who are firmly pro USSR, who love Stalin, Chechens who are Russian Imperialists, etc. As a whole I don't think those groups are very numerically significant though.
    5.) If I had to take an American example.....idk...this might be a stretch but Puerto Rico. It is American territory, and Puerto Ricans have both their own space within the US and also live in large numbers on the mainland. Many of them (including my Puerto Rican born GF) have a "I am a Puerto-Rican, not an American" identity going on. Their country is the US, but their origin/home is Puerto Rico. Now add the difficult history of Chechnya into the fray, and the feeling of a separate identity makes sense today.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:07 pm

    Chechens actually are pro russian in general and were it for long period of time.
    The chechen war was not chechen hate against russians but US propaganda and money that propagated hatred towards russia with false nonsense history education of "suppressing of chechens" and other bullshit. This wars would never happen without US leading money,hand and propaganda.

    Same bullshit like todays russians living on Ukraine mostly western ukraine calling themselfs "not russian" and bullshit like "ukrainian ethnicity" and wanting to kill russians, while completley brainwashed over last 23 years that they are refusing to believe they are russians.

    Chechens do think of russia as their motherland, different than russians but still they are a part of russia and they like it better than being some indepentent incapable and unable to survive country, they would be swollowed withing a month by USA.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:16 pm

    Are you seriously spinning the Chechen wars into a US-created conflict?

    Jesus christ. I've seen it all now.

    Nonsense history eh? Anything that involves the Russian state oppressing people is all made up right? Chechens never took a state-paid vacation to Kazakhstan or anything.
    I am not going to down-vote your post, but you should know that it gave me cancer.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:36 pm

    TR1 wrote:Are you seriously spinning the Chechen wars into a US-created conflict?

    Jesus christ. I've seen it all now.

    Nonsense history eh? Anything that involves the Russian state oppressing people is all made up right? Chechens never took a state-paid vacation to Kazakhstan or anything.
    I am not going to down-vote your post, but you should know that it gave me cancer.

    Wow you are truelly blind and ignorant about facts and involvement of USA, creating such NGOs like "Freedom for Chechnya" with George Soros money invest to arm Chechens.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/04/29/cia-financing-of-chechen-and-other-caucasus-regional-terrorists/

    However, large portions of U.S. assistance money has «bled» over to support Chechen and other North Caucasus terrorist groups, which the U.S. State Department and U.S. intelligence agencies insist on referring to as «separatist guerrillas», «nationalists», «insurgents», and «rebels», instead of terrorists. wrote:....

    U.S. «humanitarian» and «civil society» assistance to radical Islamist groups has, for the past three decades, filtered into the coffers of terrorist groups celebrated as «freedom fighters» in Washington. This was the case with U.S. support for the Afghan Mujaheddin through such groups as the Committee for a Free Afghanistan during the Islamist insurgency against the People’s Democratic Republic of Afghanistan in the 1980s and the Bosnia Defense Fund in the 1990s.....


    After revelations that an entity called the Caucasus Fund was used by the CIA-linked Jamestown Foundation of Washington, DC to sponsor seminars on the North Caucasus in Tbilisi from January to July 2012, Georgian authorities moved to shut down the fund. The reason given by Georgia was that the organization had «fulfilled its stated mission».

    U.S. «civil society» aid to groups fomenting terrorism, nationalism, separatism, and irredentism in the Caucasus is either direct through the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) or covert through organizations funded by George Soros’s Open Society Institute.

    A November 12, 2009 Confidential cable from the U.S. embassy in Moscow implies that the Carnegie Center NGO in Moscow be engaged to stymie Russia’s political and economic goals in the North Caucasus, particularly by taking advantage of 50 percent unemployment in Ingushetiya and 30 percent in Chechnya. Areas of high unemployment in the Muslim world have served as prime recruiting grounds for Wahhabist and Salafist radical clerics financed by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the emirates of Sharjah and Ras al Khaimah. Dagestan is cited in a June 8, 2009 embassy Moscow cable as Russia’s «weakest link» in the Caucasus region.

    Sure, Russia oppresses all Chechens, all those poor chechens are oppressed in their russian build schools, hospitals, cities like Grozny. Some say the russian occupation are the cruelest on earth forcing Indigenous people to live in cities, forcing them to learn writing and reading, forcing on them health care system, forcing them to doing jobs.

    What a cruel suppressive regime Russia is, poor chechnians. Put your head out of your rear, where on earth was Chechnia oppressed by Russia, all chechnians lived equal to any russian or any other ethnicity in Soviet Union and that did not change in Russia, the only thing that changed was Jelzin the drunk has let american CIA into Kreml, creating propaganda in all directions and was glorified in the West as the biggest democrat and best russian leader in entire history.

    I say it like it is, without US funding Chechnian war would never happen!

    Stop ignoring facts and trying to blame Russia for things it did not do, you are not concerned about yourself and your views, critizing Putin,Russia but never giving any reasons, only making remarks about Russian agenda here and there and down playing everything the west does.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:32 am

    TR1 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Ask yourself a question real quick...why would a Chechen think of Russia as his "motherland"?

    Large numbers of Chechens fought to remain part of the Russian federation... perhaps they think of Chechnia as part of Russia and therefore at least a piece of Russia as their motherland?

    I doubt there is a single thing every single Chechen would agree upon...

    And more Chechens fought against Russia, then some were bought to fight in Russia's name.
    Not such a rosy picture.


    The Bolded part you would probably find a lot more people agreeing on...but "rodina" is a very different implication.
    There are a lot of people in Dagestan who wear cloths with Russian flags or something similar for example but I can tell you for fact most still consider themselves a very much separate people, but within the same legal borders. The distinction between a sense of country and origin is big. There is pretty much zero basis for someone from Kavkaz to feel like Russia is their motherland like for ethnic Russians.

    We are of course generalizing...

    Seems like you're thriving on making controversial statements these days TR1 Smile
    I agree this forum needs a counter-balance to the intense Russophilia, but you can do better IMO.

    I've met plenty of Kavkaz people who are more patriotic about Russia than most Russians I know. No exaggeration - literally plenty of people. I know Georgians, Jews, etc.. who are patriotic about Russia and view it as their motherland.
    In fact I'll tell you right now - the most patriotic 'Russians' I've met, have been more often than not - non-ethnic Russians. While there are many foreign people even, Serbs, Armenians, etc... that are more patriotic about Russia than many Russians. This forum is as good an example as any.
    That doesn't mean they don't have any connection to their home countries/regions; but it's possible to believe in the 'greater motherland' so to speak, just as its possible for someone to be a patriot of their own country yet fight or believe in some ideology, religion or whatever.  For many people Russia represents a belief, probably due to the fact that it's a powerful country and they don't like America.

    Now you can chalk that down to indoctrination or whatever, but it's there.

    Of course they're a separate people - 'Russian' just as 'Soviet' before it has always been more of an ideological or civil identity than anything else (even during the Russian empire days). In actual fact there are hundreds of languages and peoples and all have their own traditions, etc... Russia is a motherland to all because it accepts all.

    You can argue that Caucasus-peoples and other non-ethnic Russians would take the side of their home republics if they got into a war with the rest of Russia - but then the same would probably apply to me if it was my region/area that started getting shelled and repressed, etc... look at the Donetsk and Lugansk regions in the Ukraine to see what I'm talking about. At that point it becomes a civil war and the calculus changes.

    What you're arguing about is semantics; country, motherland - it's just words. During WW2 many fought for the 'motherland' with great ferocity; and I think many of the nations with among the highest proportion of 'heroes of the USSR' are ones that have had little historical connection to Russia for most of the last millennium. The amount of people who fought, bled and died for a country that 1-2 centuries prior had nothing to do with them - is a far more important indicator of who considers what country as his own; than any such debate on terminology.

    About the Chechens - it's pretty sad all that happened, but before the war - they weren't particular Russophobes I think; even with the local ethnic riots there and so on that happened in the 50s - on the whole the picture that I got is that nationalists-seperatists were the minority in the early 90s.
    And the war itself - well they started it themselves, let's agree on that - the whole situation and how it developed pretty much gave Russia no choice but to go in (even if Russia and its officers were earlier instrumental in such people gaining power there and cementing themselves in). Zavgayev's government was too weak to maintain power against the radicals led by Dudayev, then 1-2 years later the pro-Moscow militias who came in from north Chechnya were too weak to topple Dudayev - and the rest that happened afterwards we already know.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  macedonian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:46 am

    TR1 wrote:1.) I was not loling @ you, but at the thought of Chechens (lets say most of them) declaring Russia to be their motherland. It is a funny concept.
    2.) Chechens in Moscow seeking work (legal and illegal) is a bit different then full scale immigration like that to the United States. Even then, go ahead and ask them what they feel about Russia. You would be surprised how many immigrants (Chechen and Central Asian) talk shit about Russia, not even going to talk about considering it their home....I chalk that up to economic condition (no brainer correlation there) and ethnic differences, not necessarily deep rooted hate of Russia, but still. It exists.
    3.) Yes, Blacks and Natives got the shaft in America, on a massive scale. That does not make Chechens feel any more "Russian" though, now does it? Plus, recent history (Chechen Wars) has not faded away. Native Americans have been stuffed on a few reservations, and most of the populations have long since died out- they don't really have much of a choice but to think of America as their home now (though I won't speak of this too much because frankly I don't know much or many Native Americans and their feelings on the US in 2014). Chechnya still exists, so does the Chechen people.
    4.) I am talking as a whole. There are exceptions, I am sure you can find Chechens who are firmly pro USSR, who love Stalin, Chechens who are Russian Imperialists, etc. As a whole I don't think those groups are very numerically significant though.
    5.) If I had to take an American example.....idk...this might be a stretch but Puerto Rico. It is American territory, and Puerto Ricans have both their own space within the US and also live in large numbers on the mainland. Many of them (including my Puerto Rican born GF) have a "I am a Puerto-Rican, not an American" identity going on. Their country is the US, but their origin/home is Puerto Rico. Now add the difficult history of Chechnya into the fray, and the feeling of a separate identity makes sense today.

    That's a much more detailed reply, and I thank you for that.
    You do raise some good points, but you chose to ignore one quite significant factor, and that's RELIGION.
    Chechnya has had a difficult history - yes, and I have no doubt that Chechens are proud people and all that...but...throw Islam and indoctrination by radical preachers from Saudi Arabia in the mix, and you got a part of the population ready to fight Jihad on ALL "kafirs" and not just Russians. The Boston bombing is a good example, wouldn't you agree?

    No offense, but we've yet to see a single Puertorican stripe-on a suicide vest, and head off to a Broadway show...

    The way I see it, Chechens are in need of good education, civil liberties, and all that, but unless the radical Islamists are rooted out, Chechnya will be a hot-spot of terrorism for time to come. And the more peaceful part of the population will be indoctrinated against Russia because of the ATO's going on there. Perhaps that's why Putin chose Kadyrov to rule there, because if Chechens feel that they're oppressed by one of their own, and not by "kufir" Russians, they'll drop the hatred for Russians who are there to steal their land, and turn to more pressing issues in their lives, like educating their kids, and earning a better living. And when they go to Moscow or Saint Pete, they get that. That's a smart plan, but a slow process that will take time...at least few generations.
    Just my thoughts...IMHO and all that.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:25 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Chechens did not immigrate to Russia. Russia expanded and conquered them, along the way commiting many crimes against the populace every several dozen years.

    That is not a good argument to support your point.

    In history, the Russian empire never conquered Chechnya.....simply because there was never a country with proper borders called Chechnya or Chechenistan.
    Chechens are an ethnicity, and they definitely have the right to identify themselves as Chechens. They were not a country.


    Many of them (including my Puerto Rican born GF) have a "I am a Puerto-Rican, not an American" identity going on. Their country is the US, but their origin/home is Puerto Rico.
    Well, lets hypothetically assume that you marry her and have children. What will they identify themselves as: Puerto Ricans? Dagestanis? Russians? Americans?

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:06 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Chechens did not immigrate to Russia. Russia expanded and conquered them, along the way commiting many crimes against the populace every several dozen years.

    That is not a good argument to support your point.

    In history, the Russian empire never conquered Chechnya.....simply because there was never a country with proper borders called Chechnya or Chechenistan.
    Chechens are an ethnicity, and they definitely have the right to identify themselves as Chechens. They were not a country.


    Many of them (including my Puerto Rican born GF) have a "I am a Puerto-Rican, not an American" identity going on. Their country is the US, but their origin/home is Puerto Rico.
    Well, lets hypothetically assume that you marry her and have children. What will they identify themselves as: Puerto Ricans? Dagestanis? Russians? Americans?

    Hijacking TR1s reply - they can identify themselves as anything - but they'll be Americans.
    If you're born in Russia you're Russian
    If you're born in Algerian you're Algerian
    If you're born in South Africa, you're South African.

    You're the product of where you're born, where you grow up, how your parents raised you and in what environment, where you went to school, etc... That is where your 'motherland'/rodina is.

    Some people really make this simple matter a lot more complicated than it should be. Just IMO.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:34 pm

    macedonian wrote:The Boston bombing is a good example, wouldn't you agree?

    That Boston bombing was a fake . Another False Flag event created by the CIA in conjunction with the State Dept .

    US TV stations said that they captured the event live . But then take a look at those images again . In live footage you don’t see cuts. You know, cutting from one scene to another and in live footage you don’t have .

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/21-08-2013/125452-boston_fakery-0/

    Truth is CIA and MI5 had recruited thousand of Muslim youths from impoverished countries to fight the Serbs in Belgrade . They were indoctrinated with "radical " Islamic literature in specially set up mosques in places like Birmingham . Part of the funding was done by Gulf states like Saudi Arabia , Qatar and UAE .

    After the success of the mission in Serbia they started to send these Muslim youths to various "hot spots" across the world to fight wars on behalf of the CIA/MI5 .

    If anything what the Boston bombing exposed is that the CIA / State Dept are carrying out their vile acts in their own backyards.

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  macedonian on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:03 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    macedonian wrote:The Boston bombing is a good example, wouldn't you agree?

    That Boston bombing was a fake . Another False Flag event created by the CIA in conjunction with the State Dept .

    I know that's a rather controversial [wink, wink] event.
    But it was perfect for illustrating my point.

    flamming_python
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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:24 am

    On the theme of Cossackistan Very Happy


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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  RTN on Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:24 pm

    Mike E wrote:Yeah, and the US public is oblivious to Sudai, so what?

    Mike E wrote:That is totally "wrong". Russia doesn't care that India is a part of Asia or whatever. They care about their needs, which India wants to be from Russia. 


    Mike E wrote:Yes, they have industry, a large population that can do business with Russia, forces that buy Russian weapons etc. India is one of Russia's "best" allies, and their relationship only continues to grow.

    Mike E wrote:The heck! Are you making this crap up, or are you just....... Russians I know do give a crap about Australia.

    You sure you are American? Not that I care but reading your English is a pain in the ass.


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