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    Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

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    medo

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  medo on Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:32 pm

    I'm sure Iran watched very closely, how did T-90 tanks perform in Syria.

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    Can Iran Still Trust Russia?

    Post  Arash_IMV on Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:31 pm

    .

    Hi all,


    Just finished my sixth vlog on Youtube called "Can Iran Still Trust Russia?" which deals with the purchase of the S-300 system and Russia's attitude vis-a-vis Iran.

    Just to be clear, this is not an attack on Russia, but rather a critical assessment of what has taken place in the last ten years between the two countries and the implications thereof for multipolarity.

    I am not *against* Russia at all but I do believe in healthy cooperation which has been damaged by past experiences.


    Let me know what you think:




    Description of the video:

    After nine years, Russia delivered Almaz-Antey's S300 missile to Iran in April, 2016. But why the delay? Find out here.

    The political détente between Iran and Russia began in 1989. In that year, Russian Foreign Minister Shevardnadze met Ayatollah Khomeini after the Soviet pullout in Afghanistan. A few months later, president Rafsanjani met with Mikhail Gorbachev to discuss cooperation on the use of peaceful atomic energy. These series of meetings spawned atomic cooperation agreements to be signed in 1992. The Soviet Union's weakness and its ultimate dissolution accelerated calls within Russia to revive Russia's nuclear industry abroad.

    From the mid-2000s, both countries had seen relations deteriorate. In Iran, the deregulation of the Khatami administration shifted towards an autarky-minded Ahmadinejad government insisting on Iran autonomously developing a full nuclear cycle.

    Russia's buildup after the Soviet collapse left it desperate to maintain Iran as a purchasing market. The Russians provided Iran with light-water nuclear reactors (LWRS) in 1992, the Bushehr plant was reconstructed through a $1 billion contract in 1995 and other side agreements included the negotiated delivery of a gas-centrifuge uranium enrichment facility. With the prospects of an increasingly independent Iran ahead and rapprochement with Washington, Russia decided to punish the Iranians through various international mechanisms.

    The delay of the S300 therefore serves as a case study illuminating the selfish economic interests of two states on the one hand, and the indifference by Russia to enhance regional security on the other.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:23 am

    I would consider relations are actually rather good, considering the period you talk about... 1989 and onwards is a period of time just after Iran actively supported terrorists killing Soviet troops in Afghanistan.

    Regarding S-300 sales to Iran, there was enormous pressure put on Russia to deliver nothing and to cut ties building nuclear reactors in Iran too... pressure from the US and EU and Israel... it is amusing you blame Russia for not delivering S-300s and yet are so keen to buy US civilian aircraft from a country that has tried so hard to undermine your country.

    Iran produces a range of weapons on its own... some of which are copies of Soviet designs... trust is earned.

    Why does Iran need S-300 when it clearly makes even better long range missiles itself...
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:01 am

    GarryB wrote:I would consider relations are actually rather good, considering the period you talk about... 1989 and onwards is a period of time just after Iran actively supported terrorists killing Soviet troops in Afghanistan.

    Regarding S-300 sales to Iran, there was enormous pressure put on Russia to deliver nothing and to cut ties building nuclear reactors in Iran too... pressure from the US and EU and Israel... it is amusing you blame Russia for not delivering S-300s and yet are so keen to buy US civilian aircraft from a country that has tried so hard to undermine your country.

    Iran produces a range of weapons on its own... some of which are copies of Soviet designs... trust is earned.

    Why does Iran need S-300 when it clearly makes even better long range missiles itself...

    Come now Garry, we both know that Medvedev was trying to play ball with Washington, then Arab spring happened, Libya, Syria and the final cord Ukraine made the situation crystal clear,.... Perhaps they're trying to acquire U.S aircraft because Russia has proven "unreliable" in the past.

    Semantics aside, i don't believe Russia was being hostile to Iran, more like they were disinterested.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:26 am

    Arash_IMV wrote:.

    Hi all,


    Just finished my sixth vlog on Youtube called "Can Iran Still Trust Russia?" which deals with the purchase of the S-300 system and Russia's attitude vis-a-vis Iran.

    Just to be clear, this is not an attack on Russia, but rather a critical assessment of what has taken place in the last ten years between the two countries and the implications thereof for multipolarity.

    I am not *against* Russia at all but I do believe in healthy cooperation which has been damaged by past experiences.


    Let me know what you think:




    Description of the video:

    After nine years, Russia delivered Almaz-Antey's S300 missile to Iran in April, 2016. But why the delay? Find out here.

    The political détente between Iran and Russia began in 1989. In that year, Russian Foreign Minister Shevardnadze met Ayatollah Khomeini after the Soviet pullout in Afghanistan. A few months later, president Rafsanjani met with Mikhail Gorbachev to discuss cooperation on the use of peaceful atomic energy. These series of meetings spawned atomic cooperation agreements to be signed in 1992. The Soviet Union's weakness and its ultimate dissolution accelerated calls within Russia to revive Russia's nuclear industry abroad.

    From the mid-2000s, both countries had seen relations deteriorate. In Iran, the deregulation of the Khatami administration shifted towards an autarky-minded Ahmadinejad government insisting on Iran autonomously developing a full nuclear cycle.

    Russia's buildup after the Soviet collapse left it desperate to maintain Iran as a purchasing market. The Russians provided Iran with light-water nuclear reactors (LWRS) in 1992, the Bushehr plant was reconstructed through a $1 billion contract in 1995 and other side agreements included the negotiated delivery of a gas-centrifuge uranium enrichment facility. With the prospects of an increasingly independent Iran ahead and rapprochement with Washington, Russia decided to punish the Iranians through various international mechanisms.

    The delay of the S300 therefore serves as a case study illuminating the selfish economic interests of two states on the one hand, and the indifference by Russia to enhance regional security on the other.


    .

    Punishing Iran when exactly? If Iran wasn't bombed already is in part due to Russia using Iran as a trump card. If S-300 is the point you want to lean on to muster Russia punishing anyone, the you should look at Russia's role in the oil surge which was also a great help to Iran's beleaguered economy.

    In both cases Russia acted in a cold, calculated manner while maintaining its rectitude in the deals, they were frozen, not canceled and Iran has its own fallacies about "multi polar" relationships. Especially given the rather large reliance on its own diaspora network for facilitating business with Western Powers.

    If anything one could even say that Bushehr isn't all that interesting when it comes to alliances, while the way Russia reacted towards the US strategical fallacies (also because it was clear that Iran was only a pretext on many accounts) and stalled as discretely as possible the push for war that slowly but surely was being prepared and that culminated with the famous 2009 "revolution" that happened everywhere in the Western Press but didn't really exist in Iran itself.

    I find also very interesting that Iran would consider the ties damaged while Iran itself has no exchange token and the other alternative to Russia for many issues is China, which behaved even more cowardly than Russia with a lot of statements but few actions. And on the international stage, China even used the Iranian crisis for its own interest by playing the oil market which is coherent, China being a net importer of oil.

    There is a deep issue with Iran however, while I do like the country and have found it pretty amazing in any occasion I have had to visit it (last one in May of this year), on a political level the system is very complicated to deal with. Russia isn't exactly crazed to watch Iran gear for a largely ideological confrontation in the Muslim world that is overlapping other more strategical concerns. Russia isn't all that thrilled to see that Iran is being allowed back in the oil market at the dead center of the biggest oil slump of this century, nor is it all that crazed about Iran being embroiled in Iraq and Syria while the US is all over both crisis trying to turn everything to shit.

    The biggest problem in my opinion isn't that both sides can't trust each other, it's that both sides have no credible options except each other. Until China decides it won't be D-riding Russia internationally, Iran has no other partners to assert its own interests in the region.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:58 am

    Come now Garry, we both know that Medvedev was trying to play ball with Washington, then Arab spring happened, Libya, Syria and the final cord Ukraine made the situation crystal clear,.... Perhaps they're trying to acquire U.S aircraft because Russia has proven "unreliable" in the past.

    Semantics aside, i don't believe Russia was being hostile to Iran, more like they were disinterested.

    Sorry, I wasn't clear.

    My point was that the non sale of S-300 to Iran was not about Russia and Iran... it was about Russia and the US and Russia and the EU and Russia and Israel.

    The reason they were unreliable was because of the US and EU and Israeli pressure... in the scheme of things a sale of S-300 to Iran is not actually worth that much money and if it hurt relations with the US/EU/Israel then Russia really needed to consider her options. Of course with hindsight the US and EU imposed sanctions fairly readily against Russia anyway, but Iran is hardly a buddy that Russia should get upset about upsetting.

    Iran seems happy with F-14s and modified F-5s rather than Flankers and Fulcrums.

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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:09 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Come now Garry, we both know that Medvedev was trying to play ball with Washington, then Arab spring happened, Libya, Syria and the final cord Ukraine made the situation crystal clear,.... Perhaps they're trying to acquire U.S aircraft because Russia has proven "unreliable" in the past.

    Semantics aside, i don't believe Russia was being hostile to Iran, more like they were disinterested.

    Sorry, I wasn't clear.

    My point was that the non sale of S-300 to Iran was not about Russia and Iran... it was about Russia and the US and Russia and the EU and Russia and Israel.

    The reason they were unreliable was because of the US and EU and Israeli pressure... in the scheme of things a sale of S-300 to Iran is not actually worth that much money and if it hurt relations with the US/EU/Israel then Russia really needed to consider her options. Of course with hindsight the US and EU imposed sanctions fairly readily against Russia anyway, but Iran is hardly a buddy that Russia should get upset about upsetting.

    Iran seems happy with F-14s and modified F-5s rather than Flankers and Fulcrums.


    IT's not. The problem is that the acquisition of SU-27 series is a matter of contention and could be raised at the UNSC. Iran wants them, Russia wants to offload them but it is going to be problem within 5 years anyway, because most of the weapons would then be impossible to export against the UN ban. So what good is it to sell planes without weapons?

    My opinion stays the same, send pilots, tankers, specialized assets to Russia, open cooperation programs, train the hell out of their personnel and then discover the Iranians have "reverse-engineered" cum laude Russian systems. Yes it is convoluted and yes it is cheap, but Iran needs the know-how now. Tools could come n short notice if the personnel is ready and trained. Plus Syrian trainees, Iranian trainees, could you tell the difference, given both could be trained "in Arabic" material.

    I think the Russians know this and this cat and mouse game is happening, at least in Syria.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Come now Garry, we both know that Medvedev was trying to play ball with Washington, then Arab spring happened, Libya, Syria and the final cord Ukraine made the situation crystal clear,.... Perhaps they're trying to acquire U.S aircraft because Russia has proven "unreliable" in the past.

    Semantics aside, i don't believe Russia was being hostile to Iran, more like they were disinterested.

    Sorry, I wasn't clear.

    My point was that the non sale of S-300 to Iran was not about Russia and Iran... it was about Russia and the US and Russia and the EU and Russia and Israel.

    The reason they were unreliable was because of the US and EU and Israeli pressure... in the scheme of things a sale of S-300 to Iran is not actually worth that much money and if it hurt relations with the US/EU/Israel then Russia really needed to consider her options. Of course with hindsight the US and EU imposed sanctions fairly readily against Russia anyway, but Iran is hardly a buddy that Russia should get upset about upsetting.

    Iran seems happy with F-14s and modified F-5s rather than Flankers and Fulcrums.


    I doubt it Garry, one such as Russia does not simply yield to external pressures like this, there must have been some sort of agreement, a deal of sorts in the background, since there was this "RESET" endeavor going on and all.

    Odd, i thought Iran had plenty of Fulcrums and Fencers?

    BTW, can Russia even supply Iran with new Flankers and/or Fulcrums, since they signed that UN arms embargo agreement?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:15 pm

    No. Unfortunately they cannot. Only sell defensive systems.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:46 am

    IT's not. The problem is that the acquisition of SU-27 series is a matter of contention and could be raised at the UNSC. Iran wants them, Russia wants to offload them but it is going to be problem within 5 years anyway, because most of the weapons would then be impossible to export against the UN ban. So what good is it to sell planes without weapons?

    Iran could have bought Flankers any time over the last 25 years...

    I doubt it Garry, one such as Russia does not simply yield to external pressures like this, there must have been some sort of agreement, a deal of sorts in the background, since there was this "RESET" endeavor going on and all.

    Correction... Putin does not simply yield to external pressures... Yeltsin and Medvedev seem to be made of lessor stuff.

    Odd, i thought Iran had plenty of Fulcrums and Fencers?

    Most flew from Iraq and were kept as war reparations...

    BTW, can Russia even supply Iran with new Flankers and/or Fulcrums, since they signed that UN arms embargo agreement?

    Then they should unsign it...

    Ilegal sanctions unilaterally imposed by the EU and US can be sited as the grounds for ignoring UN sanctions until ilegal US and EU sanctions are lifted... Smile

    No. Unfortunately they cannot. Only sell defensive systems.

    Yeah, because the west always abides by UN resolutions and sanctions... remind me... what was UNSC resolution 1244 all about again...
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:51 am

    GarryB wrote:
    IT's not. The problem is that the acquisition of SU-27 series is a matter of contention and could be raised at the UNSC. Iran wants them, Russia wants to offload them but it is going to be problem within 5 years anyway, because most of the weapons would then be impossible to export against the UN ban. So what good is it to sell planes without weapons?

    Iran could have bought Flankers any time over the last 25 years...

    Iran didn't have the money or economy to buy any sizable fleet of aircraft and most of its sources have been closed to Iran since 1995 at least, non withstanding the de facto embargo from the US & friends following the 79 events. We're talking about a country that only passed through multiple sanction regimes. Militarily Iran has been forced to do with scraps.

    BTW, can Russia even supply Iran with new Flankers and/or Fulcrums, since they signed that UN arms embargo agreement?

    Then they should unsign it...


    They made a deal about the Nuclear row, they are bound by it. There's no unilateral solution to this. There are ways to get around, like setting up military cooperation trusts and having Iranian specialists go up North to gain everything they can bar the assets, which would be available between 5 and 8 years.


    Ilegal sanctions unilaterally imposed by the EU and US can be sited as the grounds for ignoring UN sanctions until ilegal US and EU sanctions are lifted... Smile

    There are ways to go around while being "sanctioned". No need for confrontation, just look at how Iran implements ATGM RE while many components are supposed to be illegal to transfer or sell.

    No. Unfortunately they cannot. Only sell defensive systems.

    Yeah, because the west always abides by UN resolutions and sanctions... remind me... what was UNSC resolution 1244 all about again...

    For better or worse, they are doing fairly well in negating those sanctions.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I doubt it Garry, one such as Russia does not simply yield to external pressures like this, there must have been some sort of agreement, a deal of sorts in the background, since there was this "RESET" endeavor going on and all.

    Correction... Putin does not simply yield to external pressures... Yeltsin and Medvedev seem to be made of lessor stuff.

    You know, normally i would say your just moving the goalpost, but i am inclined to somewhat agree on this one, yet at the same time maintain that there must have been something of benefit to Russia at the time in exchange.
    Why couldn't they simply put it on hold, why did Medvedev go so far as to sign a goddamn UN embargo, which in effect put Russia's credibility as a reliable arms exporter into serious doubt, WTF were they going for???

    BTW, can Russia even supply Iran with new Flankers and/or Fulcrums, since they signed that UN arms embargo agreement?

    Then they should unsign it...

    Ilegal sanctions unilaterally imposed by the EU and US can be sited as the grounds for ignoring UN sanctions until ilegal US and EU sanctions are lifted... Smile

    I would love to see Russia do that. Twisted Evil
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:07 am

    They were going for a carrot & stick approach after Georgia.

    It backfired spectacularly. And now back to normalcy.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:39 am

    Iran didn't have the money or economy to buy any sizable fleet of aircraft and most of its sources have been closed to Iran since 1995 at least, non withstanding the de facto embargo from the US & friends following the 79 events. We're talking about a country that only passed through multiple sanction regimes. Militarily Iran has been forced to do with scraps

    They have done amazing work keeping the F-14 and other aircraft flying... a fraction of that effort could have been directed and buying some cheap Flankers to replace them... they were clearly not interested... and I can understand that... Iran and Russia are not best buddies... Iran has no more reason to buy lots of Russian stuff as it is to want to buy lots of French or British stuff... but if they want to buy lots of American stuff then that is fine... trust goes both ways... Russia has no reason to think Iran is trustable... sell them stuff but that is all...

    They made a deal about the Nuclear row, they are bound by it. There's no unilateral solution to this. There are ways to get around, like setting up military cooperation trusts and having Iranian specialists go up North to gain everything they can bar the assets, which would be available between 5 and 8 years.

    Can't believe I am saying this but it is a shame Hilary didn't win because that agreement would not have lasted long with her in charge anyway.

    For better or worse, they are doing fairly well in negating those sanctions.

    They should use the threat of bad behaviour to get rid of those sanctions or at least compensate for the effect.

    If someone claims Russia is doing something bad and then imposes sanctions on them for it then Russia should say they will do something bad in protest.

    In this case... the EU and US have imposed various sanctions upon Russia because of claimed Russian interference in the Ukraine... Russia should simply state that with no evidence of this Russian interference and clear western interference in the Ukraine that Russia will start exporting of certain technology to countries like North Korea and Iran... till the western interference and sanctions stop.

    Fuck em.

    You know, normally i would say your just moving the goalpost, but i am inclined to somewhat agree on this one, yet at the same time maintain that there must have been something of benefit to Russia at the time in exchange.

    Medvedev like Gorby and Yeltsin basically believed the west was good and honest and thought they would get credit for cooperation regarding Iran... Putin is not so Naive...

    Why couldn't they simply put it on hold, why did Medvedev go so far as to sign a goddamn UN embargo, which in effect put Russia's credibility as a reliable arms exporter into serious doubt, WTF were they going for???

    They clearly wanted proof of his good intentions before delivering what they promised... I wonder what he was promised and whether he got it... would be interesting to see another Medvedev presidency to see whether he would be so west friendly or not...

    I would love to see Russia do that.

    They should play hardball and unsign a lot of things that are no longer useful to Russia but the west benefits from.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:57 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Iran didn't have the money or economy to buy any sizable fleet of aircraft and most of its sources have been closed to Iran since 1995 at least, non withstanding the de facto embargo from the US & friends following the 79 events. We're talking about a country that only passed through multiple sanction regimes. Militarily Iran has been forced to do with scraps

    They have done amazing work keeping the F-14 and other aircraft flying... a fraction of that effort could have been directed and buying some cheap Flankers to replace them... they were clearly not interested... and I can understand that... Iran and Russia are not best buddies... Iran has no more reason to buy lots of Russian stuff as it is to want to buy lots of French or British stuff... but if they want to buy lots of American stuff then that is fine... trust goes both ways... Russia has no reason to think Iran is trustable... sell them stuff but that is all...

    Cheap Flankers? 1 Flankers for the Iranian Economy were never cheap, an Air Force cannibalizing its own jets to maintain a token force means that it really hasn't the means to buy anything relevant. Then there's is the military budget. even now with sizable overhaul of the military budget, the procurement average of Iran's armed forces is 500/600 million USD (2015 numbers) which is roughly 5% of the current nominal budget.

    Through out the 1990's the Iranian military budget has been of 2.2 billion on average. While any half squadron of SU's would have cost them 20% of that number (with spares and weapons). Even in the 2000 years the military budget has been of 5/6 billion on average (except for black budget sometimes doubling it). It's just not possible for a force like the Iranian Military to be able to stash money for procurement. They did so with the S300 contract which backfired in a spectacular fashion.

    It's more complex than trust. Iran doesn't have many sources. For high end assets, Russia and China remain unavoidable.That's why Iran adopted the C802/Noor and that's why they wanted the S300.

    When Iran became more than interested and had the cash it was already under embargo. And it will remain so for a decade. Now there's 5 more years.

    They made a deal about the Nuclear row, they are bound by it. There's no unilateral solution to this. There are ways to get around, like setting up military cooperation trusts and having Iranian specialists go up North to gain everything they can bar the assets, which would be available between 5 and 8 years.

    Can't believe I am saying this but it is a shame Hilary didn't win because that agreement would not have lasted long with her in charge anyway.

    I don't think that Trump was too keen on the agreement either. So careful what you wish for.

    For better or worse, they are doing fairly well in negating those sanctions.

    They should use the threat of bad behaviour to get rid of those sanctions or at least compensate for the effect.

    If someone claims Russia is doing something bad and then imposes sanctions on them for it then Russia should say they will do something bad in protest.

    In this case... the EU and US have imposed various sanctions upon Russia because of claimed Russian interference in the Ukraine... Russia should simply state that with no evidence of this Russian interference and clear western interference in the Ukraine that Russia will start exporting of certain technology to countries like North Korea and Iran... till the western interference and sanctions stop.

    This is not recess. Every country knows that predictability is a better answer even though in the long run, the contrary emerges. It was predictable that the US would fail on its ME endeavor, and it failed more spectacularly than if it was asymmetrically countered by countries like China and Russia. Read Sun Tzu, crack a beer. Iran is doing great, they're picking the long haul vs the shortcut. That what countries with a past do. They rely on their roots to prevail.

    Fuck em.

    It's sweeter when said diplomatically.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:40 am

    It's sweeter when said diplomatically.

    I was once told that real diplomacy is being able to tell someone to go screw themselves and have their response being to sincerely thank you for the advice...


    Cheap Flankers? 1 Flankers for the Iranian Economy were never cheap, an Air Force cannibalizing its own jets to maintain a token force means that it really hasn't the means to buy anything relevant. Then there's is the military budget. even now with sizable overhaul of the military budget, the procurement average of Iran's armed forces is 500/600 million USD (2015 numbers) which is roughly 5% of the current nominal budget.

    They didn't need to try to buy Su-27Ms... base model Su-27s in the 1990s would have cost less than $30 mil each... over five years a few squadrons would have been vastly more useful than wasting time and money trying to keep F-5s and F-4s and F-14s going.

    Through out the 1990's the Iranian military budget has been of 2.2 billion on average. While any half squadron of SU's would have cost them 20% of that number (with spares and weapons). Even in the 2000 years the military budget has been of 5/6 billion on average (except for black budget sometimes doubling it). It's just not possible for a force like the Iranian Military to be able to stash money for procurement. They did so with the S300 contract which backfired in a spectacular fashion.

    Its military budget would not include its rocket and nuclear weapon budget...

    Buy air defence capabilities before you develop the need to be invaded...


    Iran is doing great, they're picking the long haul vs the shortcut. That what countries with a past do. They rely on their roots to prevail.

    Buying Boeings from a country that has a habit of imposing sanctions on any country that shows growth and expands its capabilities in any area is very shortsighted...

    But I guess that is up to the hostage to get over Stockholm syndrome...
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    It's sweeter when said diplomatically.

    I was once told that real diplomacy is being able to tell someone to go screw themselves and have their response being to sincerely thank you for the advice...
    That's the idea.


    Cheap Flankers? 1 Flankers for the Iranian Economy were never cheap, an Air Force cannibalizing its own jets to maintain a token force means that it really hasn't the means to buy anything relevant. Then there's is the military budget. even now with sizable overhaul of the military budget, the procurement average of Iran's armed forces is 500/600 million USD (2015 numbers) which is roughly 5% of the current nominal budget.

    They didn't need to try to buy Su-27Ms... base model Su-27s in the 1990s would have cost less than $30 mil each... over five years a few squadrons would have been vastly more useful than wasting time and money trying to keep F-5s and F-4s and F-14s going.

    Half a squadron would have taken all the procurement budget for years...that's the whole point. Iran didn't have the plans and cash for aircraft. Iranians also knew that their airforce would be done early and fast in any open conflict with the Great Satan. That's why they wanted GBAD not Air Force.

    Through out the 1990's the Iranian military budget has been of 2.2 billion on average. While any half squadron of SU's would have cost them 20% of that number (with spares and weapons). Even in the 2000 years the military budget has been of 5/6 billion on average (except for black budget sometimes doubling it). It's just not possible for a force like the Iranian Military to be able to stash money for procurement. They did so with the S300 contract which backfired in a spectacular fashion.

    Its military budget would not include its rocket and nuclear weapon budget...

    Buy air defence capabilities before you develop the need to be invaded...

    I spoke about black budget didn't I? anyway, just not enough cash for aircrafts...it's simple. And relatively small need for them, to be modern.

    Iran is doing great, they're picking the long haul vs the shortcut. That what countries with a past do. They rely on their roots to prevail.

    Buying Boeings from a country that has a habit of imposing sanctions on any country that shows growth and expands its capabilities in any area is very shortsighted...

    But I guess that is up to the hostage to get over Stockholm syndrome...
    [/quote]

    They're buying the planes for their civilian companies that are certified to be able to fly in all airports...they also have experience with them, when Russia had nothing to offer. Seems to me that you are disputing these facts for the sake of hitting on Iran. This is how the game is played; when the rules would be bendable, Iran will bend them.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:37 am

    Seems to me that you are disputing these facts for the sake of hitting on Iran.

    The post I started my response to was basically... why is Russia so mean to Iran when Iran has done nothing to Russia.

    In my first post I mentioned they did fund an insurgency against Soviet supported Afghanistan... and continued from there that Iran and Russia have never been buddies.

    Iran does not owe Russia anything but also vice versa.

    Russia is building nuclear power stations in Iran for money.

    Russia is defending Iran in the UNSC because that is what the UNSC is supposed to do... protect countries from big bullies.

    Iran can buy from anyone they like and Russia can do what they like including refusing to sell something when it suits them....
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:50 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Seems to me that you are disputing these facts for the sake of hitting on Iran.

    The post I started my response to was basically... why is Russia so mean to Iran when Iran has done nothing to Russia.

    In my first post I mentioned they did fund an insurgency against Soviet supported Afghanistan... and continued from there that Iran and Russia have never been buddies.

    Iran does not owe Russia anything but also vice versa.

    Russia is building nuclear power stations in Iran for money.

    Russia is defending Iran in the UNSC because that is what the UNSC is supposed to do... protect countries from big bullies.

    Iran can buy from anyone they like and Russia can do what they like including refusing to sell something when it suits them....


    When you quote me, you engage me in the debate. My point was never that Iran was mean, so you pulling me in and giving a certain answer, distorts what I said.

    So I repeat:

    - Iran has almost no choice in its strategical partnerships.
    - Iran tried to buy Russian, when it was possible(it ended up in half success, Kornet sale was a very good news for Iran, S300PM, not so much). It just doesn't have the money to make sweeping purchases like Iraq. To compare the two budgets, Iran has spent as much as Iraq from 2012 to 2015 in foreign procurement in 15 years.
    -Russia was not defending Iran, it was defending its interests that happen to be aligned with Iran. However now it is far more than interests. Now it is a reluctant alliance that is blooming. It is probably going to be a full blown alliance once they bash some sense in the Sunni populations in the Aleppo, Tehran axis.
    Iran cannot buy from anyone on the military side of their deals. NATO countries are a big No-No. Russia, China and some wild cards like South Africa will be Iran's only possibilities.

    What we see now, is a disastrous US policy, backfiring in spectacular fashion.
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    d_taddei2

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    reply

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:28 pm

    Iran’s demand for Russian weaponry is estimated at $10 bln

    The package of contracts that have been discussed by now and Iran’s demand are estimated at about $10 billion. It is not an amount to be provided over one year. It will take far more time

    http://tass.com/defense/912141

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/irans-demand-russian-weaponry-estimated-10-billion/


    lets wait and see what materialises.

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    gaurav

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    Surprise: MIG-29 M2 deal with Iran

    Post  gaurav on Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:25 pm

    Surprise: Iran buys MIG-29M from Russia

    A senior Iranian MP says the country has purchased the most advanced type of Russian fighter jet which is only sold to the Russian army.


    According to a report by Mizan, as translated by IFP, Abolfazl Hassanbeigi, the vice-chairman of Iranian Parliament’s
    National Security and Foreign Policy Commission, referred to the history of Iran’s plane purchase from the Soviet Union,
    and then Russia, and said, “Iran has purchased Sukhoi and Mikoyan MiG-29 fighters before.”

    MiG-29 is manufactured in three ranges. The first is sold to small countries; the second to Russia’s allies, and the third
    to the Russian Army,
    ” he added.

    The Islamic Republic of Iran has bought the same MiG-29 fighter jet that the Russian army possesses, namely the most
    advanced type.
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    George1

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  George1 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:03 am

    Purchase of Russia's Su-30 Jets on Iran's Defense Ministry's Agenda - Minister

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/business/201611261047861707-iran-russia-su-30/
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:53 pm

    Call me when the ink is on the paper.

    Update: Ooh, damn, they actually bought the Migs, seriously?
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    crod

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  crod on Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:51 pm

    George1 wrote:Purchase of Russia's Su-30 Jets on Iran's Defense Ministry's Agenda - Minister

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/business/201611261047861707-iran-russia-su-30/

    This cannot be surely? These type systems are clearly on the embargo list as offensive weapon systems not defensive...
    Hope it's accurate but don't understand how it can be.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:32 am

    crod wrote:
    George1 wrote:Purchase of Russia's Su-30 Jets on Iran's Defense Ministry's Agenda - Minister

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/business/201611261047861707-iran-russia-su-30/

    This cannot be surely? These type systems are clearly on the embargo list as offensive weapon systems not defensive...
    Hope it's accurate but don't understand how it can be.

    The thing is both Trump and Hillary were planning to vacate the treaty anyway so...

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    Re: Russia - Iran Military Cooperation

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