Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    West revives China fear mongering..

    Share

    type055
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Posts : 103
    Points : 110
    Join date : 2014-09-03

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  type055 on Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:58 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    type055 wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:Will Russia become China's Canada?  lol! 

    Right now, China is the Mexico of Russia's Far East.  For Russia to come into a subjugated position to China, they would have to continue on course to rival the US.  That just isn't going to happen.  They have more debt to GDP than Greece and more in line with Japan.  They have created an entire bubble economy that is funded by inflated land prices and negative interest on bank deposits.  Some time soon, CCP is going to have to allow red lined industry to start defaulting and when that happens, the miracle of the Chinese economy will be over and no one will even bring up conversations like this.  


    hahaha  you are funny Russia economy totally rely on gas and weapon  investment. Russia's military industry is shrinking. If china has the other options, china will never buy russia weapons. next ten years china will make more advanced weapon than russia . just wait and see.  russia will not be mexico to china. It will be cuba to China in nearly future

    Yeah right.  Russian military industry shrinking (sales for military products from Russia is increasing every year, making Russia second in the world for sales of military industrial equipment)? What figures do you have to back that claim up?  Military Industrial complex account for 25% of Russia's Industrial strength.  Russia is an energy Superpower and well, Energy is what is needed for any nation to become a major power, hence why China and India (mostly China atm) is most interested in Russian energy.  Add to that, Russian market is huge and is always in demand for new goods, that Chinese businesses are investing billions into its infrastructure and manufacturing, as that would give China an increased edge over a major market.  That is about it.  As well, since Chinese market may go bust and the investments into Ghost Cities are a bubble waiting to burst, China is looking to Russia for where to put its investments and development so that there will be an actual return.

    Now add Brazil and India to the mix, and massive potential for Russia to sell its goods to and as well, its resources to, and China will just be another part of the fraction.  If Russia decides to simply start investing in their allied nations like Cuba, Venezuela, Tajikistan, etc in order make them richer and more developed, there would be a higher demand for Russian goods.  A good alternative to what China produces in heavy industrial equipment.



    Russia MIC is not shrinking? Russia navy start to buy ship from France , Russia never built a battle ship over 6000 tons after 1991 ,all the nuclear subs russia build today is design by CCCP times( yes it advanced) and one sub took 20 years to finish. T50's engine is not real AF41 as they planed. energy superpower? do u know The shale gas revolution. China is working on it, if Russia is energy superpower, so dose Saudi Arabia. none of Industrial countries proud of raw material export.
    brics ?what's this ?? this words invented by western. It's not a group as nato . in BRICS most Chinese don't care this groups. look at statistics. how much china invest in middle asia and other parts of worlds each year, and check Russia’ number.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:07 am

    type055 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    type055 wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:Will Russia become China's Canada?  lol! 

    Right now, China is the Mexico of Russia's Far East.  For Russia to come into a subjugated position to China, they would have to continue on course to rival the US.  That just isn't going to happen.  They have more debt to GDP than Greece and more in line with Japan.  They have created an entire bubble economy that is funded by inflated land prices and negative interest on bank deposits.  Some time soon, CCP is going to have to allow red lined industry to start defaulting and when that happens, the miracle of the Chinese economy will be over and no one will even bring up conversations like this.  


    hahaha  you are funny Russia economy totally rely on gas and weapon  investment. Russia's military industry is shrinking. If china has the other options, china will never buy russia weapons. next ten years china will make more advanced weapon than russia . just wait and see.  russia will not be mexico to china. It will be cuba to China in nearly future

    Yeah right.  Russian military industry shrinking (sales for military products from Russia is increasing every year, making Russia second in the world for sales of military industrial equipment)? What figures do you have to back that claim up?  Military Industrial complex account for 25% of Russia's Industrial strength.  Russia is an energy Superpower and well, Energy is what is needed for any nation to become a major power, hence why China and India (mostly China atm) is most interested in Russian energy.  Add to that, Russian market is huge and is always in demand for new goods, that Chinese businesses are investing billions into its infrastructure and manufacturing, as that would give China an increased edge over a major market.  That is about it.  As well, since Chinese market may go bust and the investments into Ghost Cities are a bubble waiting to burst, China is looking to Russia for where to put its investments and development so that there will be an actual return.

    Now add Brazil and India to the mix, and massive potential for Russia to sell its goods to and as well, its resources to, and China will just be another part of the fraction.  If Russia decides to simply start investing in their allied nations like Cuba, Venezuela, Tajikistan, etc in order make them richer and more developed, there would be a higher demand for Russian goods.  A good alternative to what China produces in heavy industrial equipment.



    Russia MIC is not shrinking? Russia navy start to buy ship from France , Russia never built a battle ship over 6000 tons after 1991 ,all the nuclear subs russia build today is design by CCCP times( yes it advanced) and one sub took 20 years to finish. T50's engine is not real AF41 as they planed.  energy superpower?  do u know The shale gas revolution. China is working on it, if Russia is energy superpower, so dose  Saudi Arabia. none of Industrial countries proud of raw material export.
    brics ?what's this ?? this words invented by western. It's not a group as nato . in BRICS most Chinese don't care this groups.  look at statistics. how much china invest in middle asia and other parts of worlds each year, and check Russia’ number.

    If all of this was the case, then your nation of China wouldn't be purchasing near trillion in gas and oil from Russia.  Add to that, Russia wouldn't be the second biggest supplier of weapons.  China would.  But it isn't.  Building ships is one thing, but building a full array of other systems is another.  BTW, how is China's engine program going?  Not to well from what I hear.  Add to that, China's investment into BRICS is the largest.  Because China knows that is what they will have to rely on sooner or later.

    You can try to convince yourself Type.  But you know your full of it.  BTW, might I suggest you read this site: sdelanounas.ru.  It will give you a better indication of what is happening in that country of Russia.  As well, you will be happy to know your great nation of China is getting Russian NPP's.

    See, China is smarter than you are.  As the government knows they cannot simply rely on themselves.  Just like Russia knows they cant rely on themselves.  So in the end, it is far better to work together than anything else.  China's military industrial complex isn't in good shape either, but yes, they can build ships fast.  Question is though, the quality.  If it is anything to go by with their aircrafts, then I have very little hope for them.

    Mistral deal was one deal.  I wonder how many aircrafts China bought?  If that is the case, China cannot build aircrafts?  But the funny thing is, they can and do.  But still purchase other tech from abroad.

    http://www.sipri.org/googlemaps/2013_of_at_top_20_exp_map.html

    BTW, China doesn't have a lot to brag about.  Majority of their industries was built for them.  Majority of their weapons designs were not of their own.  China was merely a state of cheap labour from the 70's and onwards.  Good for them I guess.  But sure did not help their GDP per capita.

    China will feel the issues later on when automation becomes cheaper than Chinese labor. Already many plants in Russia alone are moving to Automation due to the cheapness of it in long term. China on the other hand, is good with semiconductor production and produces nearly every single semiconductor.

    As for Shale gas, I guess you are not aware, but Shale gas production is usually a joke and not really working all too well. Exxon failed miserably in Poland for example.

    Also, China is now heavily investing in Russia. So I guess the Chinese government disagrees with you.

    type055
    Junior Sergeant
    Junior Sergeant

    Posts : 103
    Points : 110
    Join date : 2014-09-03

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  type055 on Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:10 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    type055 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    type055 wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:Will Russia become China's Canada?  lol! 

    Right now, China is the Mexico of Russia's Far East.  For Russia to come into a subjugated position to China, they would have to continue on course to rival the US.  That just isn't going to happen.  They have more debt to GDP than Greece and more in line with Japan.  They have created an entire bubble economy that is funded by inflated land prices and negative interest on bank deposits.  Some time soon, CCP is going to have to allow red lined industry to start defaulting and when that happens, the miracle of the Chinese economy will be over and no one will even bring up conversations like this.  


    hahaha  you are funny Russia economy totally rely on gas and weapon  investment. Russia's military industry is shrinking. If china has the other options, china will never buy russia weapons. next ten years china will make more advanced weapon than russia . just wait and see.  russia will not be mexico to china. It will be cuba to China in nearly future

    Yeah right.  Russian military industry shrinking (sales for military products from Russia is increasing every year, making Russia second in the world for sales of military industrial equipment)? What figures do you have to back that claim up?  Military Industrial complex account for 25% of Russia's Industrial strength.  Russia is an energy Superpower and well, Energy is what is needed for any nation to become a major power, hence why China and India (mostly China atm) is most interested in Russian energy.  Add to that, Russian market is huge and is always in demand for new goods, that Chinese businesses are investing billions into its infrastructure and manufacturing, as that would give China an increased edge over a major market.  That is about it.  As well, since Chinese market may go bust and the investments into Ghost Cities are a bubble waiting to burst, China is looking to Russia for where to put its investments and development so that there will be an actual return.

    Now add Brazil and India to the mix, and massive potential for Russia to sell its goods to and as well, its resources to, and China will just be another part of the fraction.  If Russia decides to simply start investing in their allied nations like Cuba, Venezuela, Tajikistan, etc in order make them richer and more developed, there would be a higher demand for
    Russian goods.  A good alternative to what China produces in heavy industrial equipment.

    Russia MIC is not shrinking? Russia navy start to buy ship from France , Russia never built a battle ship over 6000 tons after 1991 ,all the nuclear subs russia build today is design by CCCP times( yes it advanced) and one sub took 20 years to finish. T50's engine is not real AF41 as they planed.  energy superpower?  do u know The shale gas revolution. China is working on it, if Russia is energy superpower, so dose  Saudi Arabia. none of Industrial countries proud of raw material export.
    brics ?what's this ?? this words invented by western. It's not a group as nato . in BRICS most Chinese don't care this groups.  look at statistics. how much china invest in middle asia and other parts of worlds each year, and check Russia’ number.

    If all of this was the case, then your nation of China wouldn't be purchasing near trillion in gas and oil from Russia.  Add to that, Russia wouldn't be the second biggest supplier of weapons.  China would.  But it isn't.  Building ships is one thing, but building a full array of other systems is another.  BTW, how is China's engine program going?  Not to well from what I hear.  Add to that, China's investment into BRICS is the largest.  Because China knows that is what they will have to rely on sooner or later.

    You can try to convince yourself Type.  But you know your full of it.  BTW, might I suggest you read this site: sdelanounas.ru.  It will give you a better indication of what is happening in that country of Russia.  As well, you will be happy to know your great nation of China is getting Russian NPP's.

    See, China is smarter than you are.  As the government knows they cannot simply rely on themselves.  Just like Russia knows they cant rely on themselves.  So in the end, it is far better to work together than anything else.  China's military industrial complex isn't in good shape either, but yes, they can build ships fast.  Question is though, the quality.  If it is anything to go by with their aircrafts, then I have very little hope for them.

    Mistral deal was one deal.  I wonder how many aircrafts China bought?  If that is the case, China cannot build aircrafts?  But the funny thing is, they can and do.  But still purchase other tech from abroad.

    http://www.sipri.org/googlemaps/2013_of_at_top_20_exp_map.html

    BTW, China doesn't have a lot to brag about.  Majority of their industries was built for them.  Majority of their weapons designs were not of their own.  China was merely a state of cheap labour from the 70's and onwards.  Good for them I guess.  But sure did not help their GDP per capita.

    China will feel the issues later on when automation becomes cheaper than Chinese labor.  Already many plants in Russia alone are moving to Automation due to the cheapness of it in long term.  China on the other hand, is good with semiconductor production and produces nearly every single semiconductor.

    As for Shale gas, I guess you are not aware, but Shale gas production is usually a joke and not really working all too well.  Exxon failed miserably in Poland for example.

    Also, China is now heavily investing in Russia.  So I guess the Chinese government disagrees with you.


    China start building AC in dalian in 2013 called type 001A and will begin to build AC type002( Steam Power ,Steam catapult) in 2years from a most reliable insider work in industry.
    China' GDP grow fast in last 30 years ,so did GDP per capita if do more investigation,. 2020 government target to double GDP per capita than 2012. China is a country on transition. cheap labor will be end , start to produce high value-added products. India has lower GDP per capita than china , why companies don't build their manufacturing base in India?
    China knows he can not rely on itself . China knows russia helped us when china was weak. China want to build good relation with russia . But it seems most Russian think China is a big threat(nowadays most Chinese dont consider russia as threat,the boarder issue is settle), .and make stupy comments on what they don't know. only when china and russia use each other counter US influence , they will come together. Can u explain me why Russian think china is a threat?


    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:27 pm

    Russia doesnt. Russians that live in western countries (excluding myself thank you) do. Best bet are to ask Russians who live in Kraznoyarsk what they think as they do more business with China than they do of Moscow and such as, they view themselves as more Asian than European.

    It is the mindless numpty's who follow US rhetorics of China bad, believe that. But majority of Russians seem to be happy or contempt with China. There are Russian locations in China and both countries have student exchange happen very often.

    The Russians you are referring to are ones who been in US or CAN for too long.

    If you want my viewpoint, China is a far better trading partner that does not throw strings attached, when they do business. Unlike western countries, making China more reliable.

    Only thing that makes China unreliable is their push for territories that theu lost long ago, and that seems to be more geared towards Asia, and Russia also faces that same issue as China.

    It is really more like the animosoty between China and India is the one to be worked over.  Whatever territory disputes the two countries had, were resolved under medvedev when he gave that land back to China.

    Asf
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 488
    Points : 515
    Join date : 2014-03-27

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  Asf on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:48 pm

     Russians who live in Kraznoyarsk what they think as they do more business with China than they do of Moscow and such as, they view themselves as more Asian than European.

    I've been at Krasnoyarsk not a long time ago, nice city. Russian there are just like regular ones and view themselves as russians) Many familiar food brands in stores, it was just like I never leave St-Petersburg then I came in a Krasnoyarsk grocery

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:17 pm

    What I meant waa in regards to people who work with China more often and their viewpoint.

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:48 pm

    type055 wrote:China start building AC in dalian in 2013 called type 001A and will begin to build AC type002( Steam Power ,Steam catapult) in 2years from a most reliable insider work in industry.
    China' GDP  grow fast in last 30 years  ,so did GDP per capita  if do more investigation,. 2020 government target  to double GDP per capita  than 2012. China is a country on transition.  cheap labor will be end , start to produce high value-added products.  India has  lower GDP per capita than china , why companies don't build their manufacturing base in India?
     China knows he can not rely on itself . China knows russia helped us when china was weak.  China  want to build good relation with russia . But it seems most Russian think China is a big threat(nowadays most Chinese dont consider russia as threat,the boarder issue is settle), .and make stupy comments on what they don't know. only when china and russia use each other counter US influence ,  they will come together. Can u explain me why Russian think china is a threat?
    How does China building a new carrier have anything to do with Russia. 
    It has grown fast, thanks to the large population and workforce. - It will have to even out sometime!
    Chinese companies already have established their reputation, Indian ones are still "immature". - Companies don't build their factories anywhere, they find providers such as Foxconn.
    Mumbo jumbo... Russia (and Russians) don't consider China a threat... Why? - Because Russia has been signing billion dollar contracts with them!

    kvs
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2500
    Points : 2633
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  kvs on Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:37 am

    The claim that Russia will be some vassal of China, assumes that China will grow exponentially for the foreseeable future and will eventually take what it wants, US-style.

    1) China's growth is bounded by factors such as energy. It made the choice to emulate the broken US model of a fossil fuel based "paradise" where
    you need to drive to a grocery store. So fossil fuel supply constraints are going to dominate its economic performance in the coming two decades.
    Don't expect 10% growth in China in 2030.

    2) China has been one of the more reasonable countries on the planet and prefers trade over war. It can get access to Siberian resources by peaceful
    means. Maybe this will change, but more than "proof by assertion" has to be provided.

    3) Russia is not stagnating and has escaped the hole of the 1990s. Canada is just a handme down colony from the UK to the USA and is not any sort
    great power. Canada's GDP is primarily dependent on the US market. Russia's GDP does not depend on the Chinese market. In fact, Russia's GDP
    is large enough and diversified enough that it does no depend on exports. The oil and gas exports are 13% of Russia's GDP and falling.

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:11 am

    kvs wrote:The oil and gas exports are 13% of Russia's GDP and falling.  
    Yet people still believe that "not using Russian gas" will completely ruin their economy!

    AbsoluteZero
    Corporal
    Corporal

    Posts : 81
    Points : 105
    Join date : 2011-01-29
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  AbsoluteZero on Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:50 pm

    more low quality western propaganda  Laughing Laughing

    Why China Will Reclaim Siberia

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:51 pm

    AbsoluteZero wrote:more low quality western propaganda  Laughing Laughing

    Why China Will Reclaim Siberia

    Even the comments section are calling out NYT on that BS article.  And it is true, Siberia never belonged to China, they never even taken any land in Siberia.  They pretty much went as far as inner Mongolia.

    They try to create these fears to try to get the people in these two countries who read NYT (I doubt many do) and try to get these two countries to hate each other.  China has no claims on Siberia.  Actually, all claims China has are in south east Asia.

    They fail to mention that Siberia has a population of 44 million.

    magnumcromagnon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 4468
    Points : 4659
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:04 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    AbsoluteZero wrote:more low quality western propaganda  Laughing Laughing

    Why China Will Reclaim Siberia

    Even the comments section are calling out NYT on that BS article.  And it is true, Siberia never belonged to China, they never even taken any land in Siberia.  They pretty much went as far as inner Mongolia.

    They try to create these fears to try to get the people in these two countries who read NYT (I doubt many do) and try to get these two countries to hate each other.  China has no claims on Siberia.  Actually, all claims China has are in south east Asia.

    They fail to mention that Siberia has a population of 44 million.

    The charlatans at the New York Times are basically masturbating at the idea of 'The Great Siberian War of 2030', a total fabrication from the dungeons of the Rand Corporation. How ironic that our self-proclaimed kingpins of humanitarian rights are in fact advocating a war that will kill millions of people.

    collegeboy16
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1207
    Points : 1234
    Join date : 2012-10-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Roanapur

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:11 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    The charlatans at the New York Times are basically masturbating at the idea of 'The Great Siberian War of 2030', a total fabrication from the dungeons of the Rand Corporation. How ironic that our self-proclaimed kingpins of humanitarian rights are in fact advocating a war that will kill millions of people.
    they are free to suck on this>>>

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3182
    Points : 3310
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:59 am

    I don't mind them amalgamating the Russian Far East and Siberia; historically everything east of the Urals has been known as Siberia - but they could at least get the population right in that case.

    Otherwise, they're just using the name 'Siberia', while actually excluding Siberia's population and pulling numbers exclusively from the Russian Far East instead. It's deliberate, and it's propaganda at its most blatant.
    It would be like me saying that the whole of South America only has the population of Argentina.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15440
    Points : 16147
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:33 am

    It is like when the west demonises Putin... you know he must be doing something right...

    If they so desperately want a war between Russia and China then clearly they see both countries as a threat... well not as an actual threat... they don't see Russia or China attacking the US... what they see is the worlds pie of food and water and resources and they see Russia and China as rivals to their access to those resources.

    Very desperate...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    George1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 9422
    Points : 9914
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:05 am

    Former head of Moscow FSB warns Russia could lose territory to China

    kvs
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2500
    Points : 2633
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  kvs on Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:37 am

    George1 wrote: Former head of Moscow FSB warns Russia could lose territory to China

    A liberast spouts BS in a rag owned by Finnish corporate interests (Siberian Times = The Moscow Times = St. Petersburg Times).

    This clown is playing his little 5th columnist role of trying to poison Russia-China relations.

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3221
    Points : 3345
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:30 am

    CHina depends more on RUssia ,that Russia in CHINA.. Since Russia have all the energy they need and all the land
    to produce their own food.. and all the space.. and have a major influence in the world than China. Simply because its culture is more compatible with Europe.. have a democracy and Christian nation.

    Without Russia , China will have NATO at the doors of CHINA ,creating revolutions "for freedom".
    Contrary to Russia.. Chinesse are not seen in the world as a model nation to follow. Russia is seen like that..
    by many countries in Latin America ,Asia and Africa.  Russia is a leader in the world.. China is not.. China is just
    a bank with a big manufacturing capability.. but they are not popular for innovation.. instead for copying technology more than anything.  For China to become the dominant power in the east.. they need much more than good economy.. they need to influence the world with their inventions and their culture.. good luck with that..  China will be the world major economy for sure.. but i don't see any nation in the world forming in line to become a communist rich nation.  

    The answer is no.. Russia will never be the vassal of any nation.. that will be opposite to their 9 centuries story.
    Could Russia split in the very long future and become a smaller country? perhaps who knows..  if Russia does not control its muslin population it will be.. and asians stealth invasion too. but a Vassal state never.

    I think RUssia and CHina will become just strong allies and each one with their own independence and sovereignty.
    it cannot be like USA and CANADA.. because they are very different nations ..contrary to canada that is same ethnic group of USA. like others told.. Russia does not need to be a world major economy to be highly influential.

    I think if any China will experience sooner or later a revolution 10 to 20 years.. and they will need of Russia
    experience to deal with that.. we saw already the signs of that in Hong KOng ..So i do not see ever China having colonies , their culture is too different to their neighbors. this is similar to INdia.. completely different culture to anything Russia or CHina have.

    THe only vassal states i see could happen is eastern Ukraine and Belarus and abkhazia and Armenia becoming autonomous republics of Russia.

    In short i do not see ever Russia and China as enemies.. they complement each other well .. and they both need each other.. but Russia could continue existing without China for sure.. they don't buy much military hardware any way and neither Russia trade much with them. Europe will lift the sanctions you will see.. and US will be the one isolated in the world. their colonies will rebel .

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15440
    Points : 16147
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:19 pm

    All this time and Russia hasn't become a vassal to the US or Europe... I really don't see why it would bow to China so to speak.

    Only the US demands its "allies" behave as vassals.... why would China want to become like the US?


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    PutZin
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 11
    Points : 9
    Join date : 2015-01-22

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  PutZin on Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:04 pm

    Vann7 wrote:CHina depends more on RUssia ,that Russia in CHINA.. Since Russia have all the energy they need and all the land
    to produce their own food.. and all the space.. and have a major influence in the world than China. Simply because its culture is more compatible with Europe.. have a democracy and Christian nation.

    Without Russia , China will have NATO at the doors of CHINA ,creating revolutions "for freedom".
    Contrary to Russia.. Chinesse are not seen in the world as a model nation to follow. Russia is seen like that..
    by many countries in Latin America ,Asia and Africa.  Russia is a leader in the world.. China is not.. China is just
    a bank with a big manufacturing capability.. but they are not popular for innovation.. instead for copying technology more than anything.  For China to become the dominant power in the east.. they need much more than good economy.. they need to influence the world with their inventions and their culture.. good luck with that..  China will be the world major economy for sure.. but i don't see any nation in the world forming in line to become a communist rich nation.  

    The answer is no.. Russia will never be the vassal of any nation.. that will be opposite to their 9 centuries story.
    Could Russia split in the very long future and become a smaller country? perhaps who knows..  if Russia does not control its muslin population it will be.. and asians stealth invasion too. but a Vassal state never.

    I think RUssia and CHina will become just strong allies and each one with their own independence and sovereignty.
    it cannot be like USA and CANADA.. because they are very different nations ..contrary to canada that is same ethnic group of USA. like others told.. Russia does not need to be a world major economy to be highly influential.

    I think if any China will experience sooner or later a revolution 10 to 20 years.. and they will need of Russia
    experience to deal with that.. we saw already the signs of that in Hong KOng ..So i do not see ever China having colonies , their culture is too different to their neighbors. this is similar to INdia.. completely different culture to anything Russia or CHina have.

    THe only vassal states i see could happen is eastern Ukraine and Belarus and abkhazia and Armenia becoming autonomous republics of Russia.

    In short i do not see ever Russia and China as enemies.. they complement each other well .. and they both need each other.. but Russia could continue existing without China for sure.. they don't buy much military hardware any way and neither Russia trade much with them.  Europe will lift the sanctions you will see.. and US will be the one isolated in the world. their colonies will rebel .

    LMAO! What are you smoking, my "friend" ? I think you've had an overdose of VoltaireNet, GlobalResearch and too much nationalistic propaganda lately.

    So China needs Russia more than the other way around? You're funny, I'll give you that.

    You say that Russia has "all the energy" China needs. You do realize that Central-Asian republics have the same energy as Russia? Furthermore, you do realize that China has ALL THE MONEY Russia needs ?

    Russia "having major influence more than China" ? LOL

    "Culture comparable with Europe" - Ok, I think you should take a look at several opinion polls to find out what most people in the EU think about Russia and the Russians in general.

    "Russia is a leader of the world, China is not" ?? Hahahah

    How nice that you're worried about "HK". May I remind you again which country experienced a massive collapse in 1989 - was it the USSR or China ? How did "HK protest" turn out by the way ? It got nowhere. I guess Russia didn't had protests against Putin, three years ago in the middle of Moscow ?

    "Copying technology" - Yeah, I see "original Made in Russia" products anywhere these days, yup or NOT.

    "Asian stealth and Muslim invasion" - Oh my, that's some serious paranoid stuff going on in your head. Not that I haven't noticed that earlier.

    Keep on writing, you're giving me a good laugh!

    Werewolf
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5390
    Points : 5639
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:32 pm

    "Culture comparable with Europe" - Ok, I think you should take a look at several opinion polls to find out what most people in the EU think about Russia and the Russians in general.

    It is completley horse shit and it does not matter what most people think in EU about russia since they are indoctrinated by Cold war rhetoric that russia is some barbarian nation all living in some tribe-like houses or in caves. Russia is far closer with most european countries like germany and hundred years ago with scandinavian countries which are today just some gay loving countries that have tossed their culture completley away.

    It does not matter what countries believe since their opinions were formed by anglo-suckson and zionazi politics which hold till this very day controll of EU and their leadership and what politics are followed what news are censored and what is shown.

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3182
    Points : 3310
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:08 pm

    PutZin wrote:LMAO! What are you smoking, my "friend" ? I think you've had an overdose of VoltaireNet, GlobalResearch and too much nationalistic propaganda lately.

    So China needs Russia more than the other way around? You're funny, I'll give you that.

    They both need each other actually, I'd say equally as mcuh

    You say that Russia has "all the energy" China needs. You do realize that Central-Asian republics have the same energy as Russia? Furthermore, you do realize that China has ALL THE MONEY Russia needs ?

    Yes and Russia has all the energy, agricultural land and natural resources that Russia needs.

    But of course they are not exclusive partners with one another; they both have plenty of other strategic and trading partners.. many of whome will give better deals on various things.

    Russia "having major influence more than China" ? LOL

    Politically speaking yes, Russia is a more politically influential country than China is as of 2015.

    It also has a lot more strategic room for maneuver.

    China has been slacking off and is surrounded by US bases, client states and allies. Philippines, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Thailand.. the US is now trying to get Vietnam and India in on the action too - and have found some success.
    Then there's the Tibet issue too, which is being used as a lever of influence against China; the US has many supporters among China's own separatists. And amongst many naive Chinese too, as seen in the HK protests.

    China has very few allies around it, even less than 10-20 years ago. North Korea has fallen further behind the South and often just goes off on its own mental tirades, Burma has been switching to the US side or at least a neutral one, while no-one cares about Laos I think.

    China has a powerful military and a huge economy - but it faces an uphill battle to get rid of all the US encroachment around it; which has sunk very deep in and continues to make gains even today.

    As for Russia; separatism has been checked, 'democracy protests' have been checked, NATO expansion has been checked, Russia has started its own military alliance and economic union to counter the EU and NATO, and has been actively courting traditional US allies such as Turkey, Israel, South Korea, Japan and others. It's strategic position looks a lot more tenable, and it can afford to defy the US more than China can at the moment (although of course China has a lot more economic leverage over the US, but it itself is more vulnerable too).

    "Culture comparable with Europe" - Ok, I think you should take a look at several opinion polls to find out what most people in the EU think about Russia and the Russians in general.

    Please enlighten us then.

    "Russia is a leader of the world, China is not" ?? Hahahah

    China just lays back and doesn't do anything, plays the long game.

    Russia is not the leader of the world but there are far more world leaders that are trying to imitate Putin at the moment than Jinping.

    How nice that you're worried about "HK". May I remind you again which country experienced a massive collapse in 1989 - was it the USSR or China ? How did "HK protest" turn out by the way ? It got nowhere. I guess Russia didn't had protests against Putin, three years ago in the middle of Moscow ?

    The USSR, Russia is not the USSR and doesn't share its ideology, demographic makeup or economic system. It'll be fine.

    Protests against Putin? That was about 1% of Moscow's population. A pretty small number and after the Maidan events and the Russia-West tensions, nowadays it will be smaller still.

    "Copying technology" - Yeah, I see "original Made in Russia" products anywhere these days, yup or NOT.

    Plenty of them around actually. If you're going to make the claim that Russia copies everything - back it up.

    PutZin
    Private
    Private

    Posts : 11
    Points : 9
    Join date : 2015-01-22

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  PutZin on Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:51 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    PutZin wrote:LMAO! What are you smoking, my "friend" ? I think you've had an overdose of VoltaireNet, GlobalResearch and too much nationalistic propaganda lately.

    They both need each other actually, I'd say equally as mcuh

    Yes and Russia has all the energy, agricultural land and natural resources that Russia needs.

    Politically speaking yes, Russia is a more politically influential country than China is as of 2015.

    It also has a lot more strategic room for maneuver.

    China has been slacking off and is surrounded by US bases, client states and allies. Philippines, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Thailand.. the US is now trying to get Vietnam and India in on the action too - and have found some success.
    Then there's the Tibet issue too, which is being used as a lever of influence against China; the US has many supporters among China's own separatists. And amongst many naive Chinese too, as seen in the HK protests.

    China has very few allies around it, even less than 10-20 years ago. North Korea has fallen further behind the South and often just goes off on its own mental tirades, Burma has been switching to the US side or at least a neutral one, while no-one cares about Laos I think.

    China has a powerful military and a huge economy - but it faces an uphill battle to get rid of all the US encroachment around it; which has sunk very deep in and continues to make gains even today.

    As for Russia; separatism has been checked, 'democracy protests' have been checked, NATO expansion has been checked, Russia has started its own military alliance and economic union to counter the EU and NATO, and has been actively courting traditional US allies such as Turkey, Israel, South Korea, Japan and others. It's strategic position looks a lot more tenable, and it can afford to defy the US more than China can at the moment (although of course China has a lot more economic leverage over the US, but it itself is more vulnerable too).

    Please enlighten us then.

    China just lays back and doesn't do anything, plays the long game.

    The USSR, Russia is not the USSR and doesn't share its ideology, demographic makeup or economic system. It'll be fine.

    Protests against Putin? That was about 1% of Moscow's population. A pretty small number and after the Maidan events and the Russia-West tensions, nowadays it will be smaller still.

    First of all, I am disappointed that you're taking sides with that "air head" since I consider you being one of the few normal&rational people on here.

    Let's start with your first comment:

    A) They need each other yes, but not equally. China is in a far better position regarding economy and diplomacy these days. China is not short of cash, neither is it short of having countries they can buy oil and gas from.

    Countries in Central Asia are trading heavily with China even though Russia has this "Customs Union" going on. The fact is that you can just take a look at who Turkmenistan is selling their oil and gas to; 70% goes to China. 56% of all imports for Kyrgisistan comes from China.

    China is the biggest trading parther of Kazakhstan - and China is also one of the top two economic partners with Uzbekistan. So Russia can call it's "alliance" for Customs Union or whatever, but there is no doubt who has the money and who countries in Central Asia are trading with the most - China being one of the top economic partners.

    B) I don't see where Russia has succeeded in being more political influential. Russia tried in Syria (still trying), but it isn't working out as of now. While Russia is busy "being influential" in war-thorn countries such as Syria and Ukraine, China is busy making even more money than they have.

    C) It is the other way around. The whole massive NATO&EU structure is pointing against Russia. Russia has only one real ally left in Europe - Belarus - and that is against whole NATO and the EU.

    Having NATO and the EU against you is far worse than having recession/stagnated Japan + third world Phillippines against you. Taiwan can't do anything as the U.S. doesn't even care to sell them strategic weapons anymore and South Korea is the largest economic partner with China.

    Furthermore if you look at the Pew Research poll, 56% of South Koreans are looking positively on China. But if you take a look at how many hate Russia in the rest of the Europe, you'll have a hard time finding anyone else liking Russia besides Belarus, Serbia and maybe Greece. The latter doesn't matter as they're economically destroyed and still members of both NATO and the EU.

    Thailand is definitely not hostile to China. China and the PLA has great relationship with Thai military and regarding Thailand, 72% of all Thai people view China positively. So there is no hate there and once again, it would be extremely hard for the U.S. to make Thailand hostile to China.

    Three countries in Asia that are hostile to China and where majority hate China are: Japan, Vietnam and the Phillippines - and that is no threat at all.

    China is friendly with South Korea, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Malaysia, Central Asia, Russia, Lao PR, Cambodia, etc. Not only is China friendly with these countries vis-a-vis diplomacy and international relations, but majority of people in these countries doesn't have anything against China. Just check the Pew Research and other polls.

    Russia on the other hand is now a top 5 country along with Iran, Israel, North Korea and Pakistan that are view most negatively around the world.

    So I cannot see Russia doing much "manouvering" as Russia has been losing influence in several countries for the past 15 - 20 years (Yemen, Iraq, Libya, Syria) comes to mind - and now Ukraine.

    Use 1990 as your starting point and figure how who's influence has expanded since then.

    Finally, China has no problems with South Korea or Israel at all. So I really don't see why you're counting these in on "Russia's" side.

    Don't have much problems with Turkey either; they even chose Chinese SAMs over Russian SAMs, until U.S. pressured Turkey to cancel.

    The "others" would be Vietnam, since that's the only country you can count as Russia-friendly vis-a-vis China. Even with Japan that is hostile,
    they still trade a lot more with China than they do with Russia.

    Japan can't simply afford to be "tough" economically on China or any other country for that matter.



    Werewolf
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5390
    Points : 5639
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:28 pm

    C) It is the other way around. The whole massive NATO&EU structure is pointing against Russia. Russia has only one real ally left in Europe - Belarus - and that is against whole NATO and the EU.

    Having NATO and the EU against you is far worse than having recession/stagnated Japan + third world Phillippines against you. Taiwan can't do anything as the U.S. doesn't even care to sell them strategic weapons anymore and South Korea is the largest economic partner with China.

    And what is NATO?

    Shitty germany with entire 17 jets in operation while the rest can barely survive from year to year with less flight hours and readiness, or the shrinking Tank fleet that is already beneath 120 tanks ready.

    Or the Baltic states, that can not even guard their own pockets properly.

    France,Poland,UK, they have no chance, nor do they want really. The entire NATO is a big joke only USA within NATO is the entire NATO, the rest can not even guard their own countries against their boardering neighbours which are all together quite a joke military speaking. None of this so called NATO countries has even the basic logistics chain to Afghanistan, they constantly need russia to bring their Tigers, Leo2's, APC's and IFV's to be transported into Afghanistan. They are absolutley useless, it is only USA the rest can do nothing but boust themselfs like blowfish without poison.

    Furthermore if you look at the Pew Research poll, 56% of South Koreans are looking positively on China. But if you take a look at how many hate Russia in the rest of the Europe, you'll have a hard time finding anyone else liking Russia besides Belarus, Serbia and maybe Greece. The latter doesn't matter as they're economically destroyed and still members of both NATO and the EU.

    What kind of shitty polls you are looking at? State funded polls? The polls made by the states that are in 100% controll of EU = USA?

    Look some of actual polls you will see that there are many more "Putinversteher" than Obombaversteher.

    He is right FP, China is playing on long turn, they sit back and don't do anything despite they actually could unleash economical mayhem over entire EU and US, since those idiots have transfered all their technology and production in China and China holds now both technology and working facilities, but they don't do anything. China has no influence at least it does not use any of its political influence it holds today. Russia on the other hand does so, since they are under attack and US is pushing for WW3, china is not that smart on that behave since they could gain influence within this time beyond that of US if they would already act, because War is set in stone, the anglo-suckson zionazis want war desperatley and russia is preparing, china is just pushing for military preparations not really much more except developing some partnerships with some countres that are not helping in war.

    Walther von Oldenburg
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 894
    Points : 951
    Join date : 2015-01-23
    Age : 25
    Location : Oldenburg

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:54 pm

    Hello brothers. I have read a bit and I am sure that Russia will not be a vassal of China and may even have a chance surpassing it. Very Happy

    The key is demographics. Russia has a REALLY HUGE demographic potential and it will become larger because of new technologies allowing more food production, cheaper heating etc. Come on, Russians only need to step up their demographic recovery and in 100 years they will have 500 mln people (can have). Chinese population will age very fast and in 2050-60 Chinese demographics will be like Japan now - f..... up. Very Happy

    So, all Russian guys out there, just make lots of kids and victory is guaranteed. Very Happy cheers

    Sponsored content

    Re: West revives China fear mongering..

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 7:44 am


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:44 am