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    Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

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    runaway
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    Crimea and Black sea

    Post  runaway on Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:18 pm

    So it seems Crimea is to be russian again, as it should be, no way Putin will back away from that.
    All the clumsy rules and sabotage from Ukraine is over. Remember 2008 when they said the BSF couldnt go back to Sevastopol, they did anyway. Remember the Ukrainians have let BSF become obselete as they have refused replacing old ships.
    With Crimea back to russia, a strongpoint in black sea has been revived, from there russia is in the strongest position and can effectively control the black sea.
    I am happy the historical city of Sevastopol is again a russian victory city as of old.

    Now, last i heard 4 russian ships have entered Sevastopol along with transports. Its said against the "rules"...
    One was a intelligence ship, the other three i dont know. I saw Moskava cruiser was out patrolling the waters around Crimea along with ASW ships.


    flamming_python
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  flamming_python on Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:56 am

    Crimea is a deadweight without the rest of Eastern Ukraine; both strategically and economically. The access route to the peninsula will be cut except via a new Kerch bridge, and the region's economy (hardly great - it makes its bucks off tourism) will be completely reliant on Russia; moreover it won't be recognized by anyone else.
    BSF's position will now be more compromised not less; before we had a neutralish Ukraine with the BSF in Sevastopol. Now we're in danger of having that same fleet in the same place but surrounded by NATO forces right next door in Odessa, Mariupol, Nikolayev, etc... or at the very least a hostile Ukraine that will cause problems and invite the US the first chance it gets.

    Admittedly the situation wasn't about to lend itself to the best outcome, and the putchshists shouldn't be recognized in any case; but with the occupation of Crimea a high-stakes gamble has begun and if the rest of Eastern Ukraine stays passive as usual (Crimea was always rather more active) then we're in serious trouble. Combined with the increased West-East tensions and inevitable NATO focus on its Eastern border.

    The Crimea has to be integrated into either a federalised, de-centralised, neutral or Russia-friendly Ukraine; or become part of a new South-East Ukrainian republic; comprised of the Nikolayev, Odessa, Kherson, Zaporozhia and Donetsk regions at the least - to secure the entire Black Sea coast and to secure access to Pridnestrovie.

    Those are the only possible positive outcomes. A Malorussian republic would be good, if a federal state can't be agreed upon. But looking at the current state of things - a dim prospect so far; most of these regions right now are fairly passive and subordinate to Kiev.

    runaway
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  runaway on Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:52 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Crimea is a deadweight without the rest of Eastern Ukraine; both strategically and economically. The access route to the peninsula will be cut except via a new Kerch bridge, and the region's economy (hardly great - it makes its bucks off tourism) will be completely reliant on Russia; moreover it won't be recognized by anyone else.

    Crimea is actually a region that wont be totally reliant for russia. It has shipbuilding and fishing industries, and of course tourism.


    BSF's position will now be more compromised not less; before we had a neutralish Ukraine with the BSF in Sevastopol. Now we're in danger of having that same fleet in the same place but surrounded by NATO forces right next door in Odessa, Mariupol, Nikolayev, etc... or at the very least a hostile Ukraine that will cause problems and invite the US the first chance it gets.

    The situation was grave, nationalsts and nazis are in power in Ukraine and was to kick out both BSF as well as russian culture from Crimea. Nato forces are already on the south and west coast of black sea, to keep Crimea as main naval base for BSF is very very important.


    The Crimea has to be integrated into either a federalised, de-centralised, neutral or Russia-friendly Ukraine; or become part of a new South-East Ukrainian republic; comprised of the Nikolayev, Odessa, Kherson, Zaporozhia and Donetsk regions at the least - to secure the entire Black Sea coast and to secure access to Pridnestrovie.
    Those are the only possible positive outcomes. A Malorussian republic would be good, if a federal state can't be agreed upon. But looking at the current state of things - a dim prospect so far; most of these regions right now are fairly passive and subordinate to Kiev.

    In fact  Nikolayev, Odessa, Kherson, Zaporozhia and Donetsk have expressed their will to join Crimean region and vote for independence and assosiation with russia. Either way, Crimea is back under russian rule and will stay that way. Not a deadweight but a strong region with huge strategic value and a prosperus future with russia.


    Flyingdutchman
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:40 pm

    You're right and i must tell you that i think this time nato and EUare wrong. Russia has every right to deploy troops to crimea as Russians in all of ukraine are being beaten up, humiliated etc.

    And of course because of its history it already belongs to russia.

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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:03 am

    runaway wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Crimea is a deadweight without the rest of Eastern Ukraine; both strategically and economically. The access route to the peninsula will be cut except via a new Kerch bridge, and the region's economy (hardly great - it makes its bucks off tourism) will be completely reliant on Russia; moreover it won't be recognized by anyone else.

    Crimea is actually a region that wont be totally reliant for russia. It has shipbuilding and fishing industries, and of course tourism.

    It's quite economically underdeveloped; compared to the Ukraine on average. It's a receiver of federal funds, not a donor of them. If you're looking for shipbuilding - then you can look at Nikolayev, Kherson maybe. The majority of industry in Eastern Ukraine is located in places like Dneprpetrovsk, Donbass, Kharkov, etc... not the Crimea.

    Biggest trouble though, is that it would literally be cut off from mainland Ukraine. I'd imagine that this is with who most of its trade is with, not to mention tourism. Tourism can be made up for by Russia, but the trade will be harder to replace.
    Remember that the Crimea has been part of the Ukraine's rusting industries and fail economy for the past 23 years. Who in Russia will be interested in the Crimea's exports?
    Heck, Russian tourists might not even be interested in what the Crimea has to offer; I mean what kind of tourist infrastructure is there anyhow, compared to places like Egypt, Turkey, Mallorca, Cyprus, even Krasnodar Krai, etc... that the Russian tourist has been spoiled with over the last decade?
    If the Crimea today is still like when I visited there back in 2001; then it may be a beautiful country alright, but the facilities just won't cut it.


    BSF's position will now be more compromised not less; before we had a neutralish Ukraine with the BSF in Sevastopol. Now we're in danger of having that same fleet in the same place but surrounded by NATO forces right next door in Odessa, Mariupol, Nikolayev, etc... or at the very least a hostile Ukraine that will cause problems and invite the US the first chance it gets.

    The situation was grave, nationalsts and nazis are in power in Ukraine and was to kick out both BSF as well as russian culture from Crimea. Nato forces are already on the south and west coast of black sea, to keep Crimea as main naval base for BSF is very very important.

    Hah! All the new authorities said (not that we should recognize them), is that Russia should respect the Ukraine's "European choice", but that they are ready to do business with us, and develop ties. No threats or anything there against the BSF or anything else.
    Nazis haven't disappeared, they haven't demobilized, disarmed, etc... they are there patrolling around and waiting on the sidelines for their time to come, just like the Bolsheviks after the February revolution.
    But... for now at least in the new parliament they've been mostly sidelined; their leader secured a 2nd line post.
    While Svoboda's initiatives looked more like trolling and populism than any real attempt at threatening Russia.

    Basically what I'm saying is that there was no real threat to the BSF. No-one is offering the Ukraine NATO or EU membership anyway, and especially not after what has just transpired.

    Now this isn't to say that we should have accepted the putshchists, or let them have the Crimea. Just that it's perfectly possible to refuse to recognize them and do as we please, even without introducing any forces in theater.
    I mean, what were they going to do? The Ukrainian army had been neutral all throughout the crisis. Why would it have suddenly started listening to the putschists if they ordered it to storm Crimea?
    And anything else would have ended in failure; half the Berkut units in the entire country ended up in the Crimea, and set up their own checkpoints there, defenses; complete with their own arsenals of machine guns, grenade launchers, etc...
    That's not to mention the large number of volunteers and the Sevastopol militia, who could have be trained and armed if need be.
    Access to the Crimea is very easy to control.

    And of course if the new government DID use the military, then THAT'S when Russia should have introduced it's own forces, and rapdily mobilised its marines who are already stationed there and could respond very quickly if needed.

    The Crimea has to be integrated into either a federalised, de-centralised, neutral or Russia-friendly Ukraine; or become part of a new South-East Ukrainian republic; comprised of the Nikolayev, Odessa, Kherson, Zaporozhia and Donetsk regions at the least - to secure the entire Black Sea coast and to secure access to Pridnestrovie.
    Those are the only possible positive outcomes. A Malorussian republic would be good, if a federal state can't be agreed upon. But looking at the current state of things - a dim prospect so far; most of these regions right now are fairly passive and subordinate to Kiev.

    In fact  Nikolayev, Odessa, Kherson, Zaporozhia and Donetsk have expressed their will to join Crimean region and vote for independence and assosiation with russia. Either way, Crimea is back under russian rule and will stay that way. Not a deadweight but a strong region with huge strategic value and a prosperus future with russia.

    They're all suckering out, the authorities in Kiev are tightening their grip and they have a good amount of people from exactly such regions as Odessa, Kherson & Zaporozhia on their side. Pro-Russians in these regions aren't doing anything. I really don't think the Russian operation to seize the Crimea helped matters. In fact I think it weakened the resistance in these regions against the center; because now the conflict has shifted to one between Russia and the Ukraine; people are afraid of getting accused of seperatism while many who were neutral before are now pissed off at Russia.
    Since the Russian military started disarming the Ukrainian military; a lot of them have now openly taken the side of the putschists too.

    The situation therefore, if it doesn't get result as part of a Russia-West agreement, could be quite dire; the BSF will be surrounded by angry hohols from Odessa to Melitopol. They won't be able to do anything themselves of course, but in time they could invite in somebody who could.

    Vann7
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:02 pm

    All Southern Ukraine ,And eastern Ukraine the industrial zone seems to be in the side of Russia.

    Odessa coast wants to be part of Crimea autonomous region.. and basically coastal zones of Ukraine to the black sea.Also the eastern parts of Ukraine seems very strong on the side of Russia..

    This was today.. in Donetsk..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkTyD8Ix-Ek&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLeIzHhBSrVIbzIQfNuw_xXkEtkKO09rSH

    Berkut police who used to be the police of Ukraine and disbanded by the new fascist rules in kiev is now hired by Crimea autonomous region and seems they operate in eastern Ukraine,on the side of Russia.
    Is major conflict start.. and Russia is forced to invade ,they will end capturing al Souther part of Ukraine and the east.. capturing 1/3 of ukraine claiming . But i don't think they will do it.. Ukraine is a bankrupt nation and it will impact the Russian economy greatly ,on top that could kill any possibility of Ukraine surviving without any industry. MY best guess is that Russia will use their control and support they already have in easter Ukraine and souther ukraine to negotiate for a new Government more balanced in Ukraine. Crimea most likely will remain an autonomous region with more powers and Pro Russia.. unless a major war start.

    One thing i notice is the huge support for Staling and lenin and communist in Ukraine. If ever Ukraine become part of Russia ,the eastern and southern. It will be massive support for the communist party in Russia. So not very convenient for Putin political party.

    flamming_python
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:03 pm

    Other than the Crimea the only other region with a chance of splitting is the Donetsk region. At the very least they are capable of mobilising considerably larger crowds than the Maidanites are there, and have stormed their regional administration time and time again; basically every day. They are there at night time too. Albeit their own appointed people's governor is a very uncharismatic chap IMO, and Kiev is sure to send police reinforcements there. Time will tell.

    All the others are more or less passive, their pro-Russian meetings at most draw up a few thousand people, and pro-Maidan demonstrators draw up a not much smaller amount.

    In Kharkov the largest gathering so far has been a pro-Maidan one 2 weeks ago; about 25,000-30,000 people albiet with many arrivals from other regions. That got the locals pretty fired up. Since then the regional adminstration has been stormed a few times, cleared out of Maidanites holed up in there (who were beaten, publically humiliated), Russian flags raised, pro-Russian rallies of over 10,000 people, constant duty and watch at the Lenin monument day and night, etc... but it's all gone quiet now.
    Pro-Russians set up a tent-city around the Lenin monument, but it was demolished yesterday night. Their own mayor and governor betrayed them; publicly agreeing with them but at the same time slyly following the orders of the new government in Kiev. The leader of the organisation 'Oplot' who ambushed pro-Maidan protestors there 2 weeks back and besieged them in the regional administration is now wanted for questioning by the police.
    And the Kiev government has appointed a new governor and soon a new mayor of Kharkov; allied oligarchs who backed the new regime. The current mayor has only promised to keep the Lenin standing, as long as he is mayor.
    Yesterday a bunch of people turned up to protest the new governor, but there were no more than a few hundred of them. They were pushed back by multiple lines of police, many of whom arrived from other regions.
    I think the city is more pro-Russian than not but if they are all this passive than it doesn't really matter.

    In Odessa the largest gathering so far has been the pro-Russian one on 23rd of February. But of the ones lately, the largest was a protest against the Russian intervention in the Crimea; one report says 15,000 people although I have no idea how accurate it is. Earlier on their administration was also stormed by pro-Russians, flag raised, etc... but it's all gone quiet again. The general feeling is that at least a large number of people view the pro-Russians as the same sort of hooligans as the Maidanites. Or at the very least, they are neutral, and are not willing to go into the streets, or support the Crimea. About 2 days ago a large group of Maidanites arrived overnight, mostly from out of town, together with their own security; shields clubs and so on. They staged a large gathering there, and no-one did anything.
    Odessa has more proponents of the Ukrainian national idea, and the Maidan movement than one might think - they aren't a majority but there are a number of such people there.
    This despite the fact that a couple of weeks back a huge bunch of armed Odessans went out to kick the hell out of a small gathering of Maidanites. Now no-one's doing anything, and people are just following the new government.
    Also, the main pro-Russian activist got beaten up yesterday. He's not cut out for the role I think.
    The Ukrainian military moved some BMPs into the city. A paltry gathering of mostly 40+ year olds attempted to block the road and stop them, but they were just moved aside by the police; they didn't even have time to put up barricades from the tires they brought with them.
    Now the Ukrainian fleet has rebassed to Odessa.
    That report earlier about the Ukrainian ship on anti-piracy duty switching allegiances to the Crimea turned out to be false too; it docked in Odessa just yesterday, flying the Ukrainian flag

    In Dneprepetrovsk the largest gathering has been a pro-Maidan one a few days ago. 20,000 people turned up and sang the Ukrainian anthem. Enough said really. On 1st of March their regional administration was stormed and a Russian flag was raised, but by a smaller crowd.
    After the Kiev authorities took power, Maidanites toppled the Lenin statue there. Then, in an attempt to kiss some ass, the city administration changed the name of Lenin sq. to Heroes of Maidan sq. When the pro-Russian crowd gathered on the 1st of March, they knocked that sign right down. Now though, it will probably just be put back up again. Pro-Russians have achieved nothing there, and the Russian invasion has probably mobilised more people against Russia there, than those who aren't.

    In Kherson both sides had rival rallies side by side a few days back. Both were laughably small, but the pro-Russian one was smaller.
    I think they had the Russian flag raised too on the 1st of March, although I may be wrong. Doesn't matter now.

    Lugansk has also been mostly inactive; other than the Russian flag raised there a week ago.
    Albeit that might be changing now, as influence from the Donetsk region takes hold. As of yet, they haven't proved that they are able to mobilise enough people to do anything.

    Zaporozhie has perhaps been the most passive of all. Didn't even hear of a Russian flag being raised. Probably split 50/50 between pro and anti Maidan, and of the anti-Maidanites - no-one there is really doing anything.

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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  Firebird on Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:01 pm

    But I wonder if there are other factors at work. The Western ones might be unemployed on a payroll.
    The pro Russians might be at work most of the time. Clearly the Western movement had been developed with outside money for a long time. And the Pty of the Regions/Russian leaners may have been surprised by the whole thing.

    In other words, how accurate are the crowd sizes as an indicator of support/or disinterest?

    "Do you want to break away?" isn't a simple question. I mean many Ukrainans might choose a Russia leaning unified country, and then a breakaway, but never a Western/Nazi Ukraine.

    Once the East separates, where is the border drawn. That means Russian speakers/Russia leaners isolated in a Nationalist/Nazi state. And how many Maiden-nuts truly wanted an EU-Nazi-Nationalist type coup govt? I think many were protesting about the state of their lives and overall political system rather than have US backed loons in power.

    I suppose, there has to be a day of reckoning and decision. Maybe that will happen in the East over the next week or 2?

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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:34 am

    Firebird wrote:But I wonder if there are other factors at work. The Western ones might be unemployed on a payroll.
    The pro Russians might be at work most of the time. Clearly the Western movement had been developed with outside money for a long time. And the Pty of the Regions/Russian leaners may have been surprised by the whole thing.

    In other words, how accurate are the crowd sizes as an indicator of support/or disinterest?

    "Do you want to break away?" isn't a simple question. I mean many Ukrainans might choose a Russia leaning unified country, and then a breakaway, but never a Western/Nazi Ukraine.

    Once the East separates, where is the border drawn. That means Russian speakers/Russia leaners isolated in a Nationalist/Nazi state. And how many Maiden-nuts truly wanted an EU-Nazi-Nationalist type coup govt? I think many were protesting about the state of their lives and overall political system rather than have US backed loons in power.

    I suppose, there has to be a day of reckoning and decision. Maybe that will happen in the East over the next week or 2?

    That's true, all those reasons, but what does it change? One way or the other the Western bums with nothing to lose are politically active while the hard-working Easterners are too busy, too afraid of losing their jobs, too loosely organised to defend their interests, etc...
    Oh there seem to be all kinds of excuses going around; "anything but war", "what Nazis? Haven't seen them", "us Russian-speakers are doing fine in the Ukraine, no-one's oppressing us", "Putin's occupying us", "Ukraine is one and united", "Yanukovich was a corrupt SOB", etc...
    Although in many regions there is clear pro-Russian sympathy; but still people are nowhere near as active as they should be to effect a change. I mean a protest of 15,000 in a city like Kharkov, with nearly 1.5 million population? Pathetic; Sevastopol mobilised 1.5x as much, despite having only a quarter of the population of Kharkov. And accordingly, they are the ones who achieved results. In Kharkov all they've managed is for the Kiev authorities to send an oligarch loyal to take over as governor for the Kharkov region.

    Maybe it will change in month or two once the economy really does go into a tailspin. It's quite possible. But it's just as likely that the new government will cement their authority by that time, and they will use repression, propaganda, etc... to achieve their goal

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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:59 am

    I think its time for PMC backed covertly by russkies to take action.

    runaway
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  runaway on Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:42 am

    The decomissioned Kara cruiser Ochakov has been sunk as a block ship by russian sailors to prevent the obselete Ukrainian navy to leave port.
    Meanwhile cruiser Moskva has been on patrol at sea of Crimea along with other ships from BSF the last week.



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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  Firebird on Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:11 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Firebird wrote:But I wonder if there are other factors at work. The Western ones might be unemployed on a payroll.
    The pro Russians might be at work most of the time. Clearly the Western movement had been developed with outside money for a long time. And the Pty of the Regions/Russian leaners may have been surprised by the whole thing.

    In other words, how accurate are the crowd sizes as an indicator of support/or disinterest?

    "Do you want to break away?" isn't a simple question. I mean many Ukrainans might choose a Russia leaning unified country, and then a breakaway, but never a Western/Nazi Ukraine.

    Once the East separates, where is the border drawn. That means Russian speakers/Russia leaners isolated in a Nationalist/Nazi state. And how many Maiden-nuts truly wanted an EU-Nazi-Nationalist type coup govt? I think many were protesting about the state of their lives and overall political system rather than have US backed loons in power.

    I suppose, there has to be a day of reckoning and decision. Maybe that will happen in the East over the next week or 2?

    That's true, all those reasons, but what does it change? One way or the other the Western bums with nothing to lose are politically active while the hard-working Easterners are too busy, too afraid of losing their jobs, too loosely organised to defend their interests, etc...
    Oh there seem to be all kinds of excuses going around; "anything but war", "what Nazis? Haven't seen them", "us Russian-speakers are doing fine in the Ukraine, no-one's oppressing us", "Putin's occupying us", "Ukraine is one and united", "Yanukovich was a corrupt SOB", etc...
    Although in many regions there is clear pro-Russian sympathy; but still people are nowhere near as active as they should be to effect a change. I mean a protest of 15,000 in a city like Kharkov, with nearly 1.5 million population? Pathetic; Sevastopol mobilised 1.5x as much, despite having only a quarter of the population of Kharkov. And accordingly, they are the ones who achieved results. In Kharkov all they've managed is for the Kiev authorities to send an oligarch loyal to take over as governor for the Kharkov region.

    Maybe it will change in month or two once the economy really does go into a tailspin. It's quite possible. But it's just as likely that the new government will cement their authority by that time, and they will use repression, propaganda, etc... to achieve their goal
    I think to get equipped and organised takes a little time. There's still some things unclear. Like whether Putin wants to play a short game or a longer one. I'm just baffled at why the Ukraine isn't full of Ru special ops undercover, dressed as "self defence units". (Maybe it is?)

    Maybe the plan is to show the coup leaders up for what they are first. 

    Eastern people have a dilemna. Do they demand independece? Or do they demand a new/old/Russia centric govt or federalisation, or what else? And that will reflect in protests.

    The numbers I saw on TV in Kharkov looked  immense by Western standards. And also, Kiev crowds were normally not that big, just got v big for some rallies. Which, as many people say, weren't even about EUrope, certainly not supporting the wicked coup leaders.

    I wonder what Ru special ops are doing, backed by loyal local forces. I mean IT, infrastructures etc etc. Surely it wouldn't be that hard to turn the off switch. And then occupy key govt buildings? Once the Kiev Parliament is occupied, it could be largely over for the coup leaders?

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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:53 pm

    flamming_python wrote:I think to get equipped and organised takes a little time. There's still some things unclear. Like whether Putin wants to play a short game or a longer one. I'm just baffled at why the Ukraine isn't full of Ru special ops undercover, dressed as "self defence units". (Maybe it is?)

    Maybe the plan is to show the coup leaders up for what they are first.

    Eastern people have a dilemna. Do they demand independece? Or do they demand a new/old/Russia centric govt or federalisation, or what else? And that will reflect in protests.

    The numbers I saw on TV in Kharkov looked immense by Western standards. And also, Kiev crowds were normally not that big, just got v big for some rallies. Which, as many people say, weren't even about EUrope, certainly not supporting the wicked coup leaders.

    I wonder what Ru special ops are doing, backed by loyal local forces. I mean IT, infrastructures etc etc. Surely it wouldn't be that hard to turn the off switch. And then occupy key govt buildings? Once the Kiev Parliament is occupied, it could be largely over for the coup leaders

    Hmmm.... from the look of thing we still aren't clear on what Putin's or should i say Russia's objective is.

    Is it to take back all of Ukraine?
    Unlikely, Russia probably wouldn't waist there time with negotiating with fools not to mention the waist of resources on such a venture, and even even if they were to succeed it would it would be nothing more then a short term gain and a long term death spiral, best to cut the cancer from the body(what's left of it) before it spreads.

    Is it to just take the Crimea and be done with it?
    Also unlikely, why stop at the Crimea, when there are other heavily Russian populated areas who are not yet infected by the "cancer".

    IMO, Russia should just secure as many Russian friendly areas as possible and then separate them the cancer.

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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:10 pm



    Most of the maidan pro EU protesters come from western Ukraine to protest at Dontesk..
    This was proven when a group enter the building at slow hours. and the kick them out..
    and discover they were from the city that border Ukraine with Poland. The farthest way possible.
    Simply the Pro EU protesters are being Organized and Financed by NATO.. they have radio satellite communication ,and a few of them Guns.. The west paid up to $US 10 billions to protesters to overthrow a legitimate government. This is why it appear there are more Pro West.. but reality is different. All easter and Souther Ukraine is a Pro Russian bastion and for the entire conflict in kiev have been totally peaceful those zones. The numbers of Anti-Maidan factions will exponentially increase when they discover the cuts to their salaries and pensions they already planning to receive a loan from the IMF. Their economics problems will not be solved with the illegal coup and it will be a matter of weeks before the Roles Reverse. and Kiev parliament will be overthrown.

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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  runaway on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:08 am

    The ships of Ukrainian navy is to be incorporated into the new Crimea navy, and in case of a joining to Russia into BSF.
    Altough i think most of these which are confiscated will head straight to the scrapyard..


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    3  Soviet Union Grisha corvettes
    2  Soviet Union Tarantul II corvettes
    2  Soviet Union Pauk corvettes
    1  Poland Ropucha landing ship
    1  Poland Polnocny-C class landing ship
    2  Soviet Union Natya I minesweepers
    2  Soviet Union Sonya minesweepers
    1  Soviet Union Matka missile boats
    1  Soviet Union Zhuk inshore patrol boats

    Auxiliary vessels
    Over 20 naval support vessels including:
    2  Soviet Union Toplivo class logistics tankers
    1  Soviet Union Hydrographic vessel (U635 Skvyra Hydographic cutter)
    1  Soviet Union Moma class small intelligence ship
    1  Soviet Union Muna class costal survey ship
    1  Soviet Union Bambuk class command ship

    Vann7
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:37 am

    Visual Protest its numbers Not very accurate.. That only indicates organization and not nation wide numbers.. Majority of people with a job dont protest. or others afraid of the violence either.

    Ukraine have 45 million citizens.. and the maidan protest at best only got from 50,000 to 100,000 people.. and all of them financed by the US state department.

    One of the best report about Ukraine..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEcZFgSnVP0&index=2&list=FLwGYjBaQ5y2UY3gKVsOTACw


    IF for example NATO have 50,000 names of unemployed Ukrainians people ,paying each one $20 dollars a day. This is about 1 million dollar each day.. perfectly possible for NATO to do it.. 3-4 days a week.

    Special trained protesters could also be exported from abroad. I really think Ukraine are abysmal Failure of Russia intelligence. They should have warned Yakunovych how to better prepared to avoid the conflict.. and even send their own special forces to counter the riots . Instead Russia just waited for things to get worse to interfere. What i saw of Ukrainian police is that they were very unprepared to counter the unrest..very disorganized and poorly equipped .. Where was the dozen of water cannons? The Sound weapons? The shot guns with plastic bullets?  Electrical guns? the horses and dogs? So many things they could have done to avoid losing control of the nation. And if that wasn't bad enough they release prisoners for beating police..clearly teaching the bandits there is no consequences for breaking the law. and the last straw was allowing to remove police from government buildings . So now Yakunovych who didn't wanted to use violence ,will have to face not only violence in many other cities but a potential civil war with a major war between Russia and NATO terrorist by proxy.

    For me the real indicator of which side have more support is that in all Easter and souther Ukraine have been largely peaceful the entire conflict . This is where 60% -70% of Ukrainians live. north Ukraine and west is not as populated and there are many desolated zones too.

    Vann7
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:44 am

    i have a question ..

    Anyone knows in what way will benefit Russia ,if Crimea officially joins Russia territory?

    Some have said Russia will save the 100 million every year for renting the base. But
    others have said Crimea is one of the region that less money produce and more social spending consume ,and that their economy is entirely tourism based but that now will face competition from Sochi. some economyst have said the new cost for Russia for maintaining Crimea will be 3 billions per year. That economically speaking is not a good business for Russia.. any experts opinions?

    Another question is about eastern Ukraine.. in what way will benefit Russia economy if somewhere in the future Ukraine Split in half (east vs west),and eastern Ukraine becomes official part after refendumand join Russia?

    runaway
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  runaway on Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:16 am

    Now time is running out for those ukrainian ships blocked in port, will they defect to Crimea and Russia or will they scuttle their ships like Germans in WW1?
    21 March is the deadline.
    I think they will swear alligience to Crimea and Russia.




    TheArmenian
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:10 am

    If the Ukrainian officers/sailors scuttle the ships or do any damage to them, they will be arrested and face charges of damaging/destroying Crimean State property.

    GarryB
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:26 am

    The reason the Crimea is not in great shape economically is the same reason most industry in the Ukraine is not in good shape economically... no investment and it has been largely cut off from its traditional markets... Obviously given the choice to go to the Black Sea for a holiday many Russians would prefer to remain in Russia.

    Of course the Crimea is very naval oriented with lots of ship building etc... I am sure a few ship building contracts from the Russian Navy would perk things up, and of course the area has a lot of historical value to Russians who will visit the many war memorials and places of interest.

    russia will have to invest money into the region but i am sure it will develop into a much better place that will likely generate revenue... at the very least as part of Russia the Sevastopol base is secure and stable.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Flyingdutchman
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:41 pm

    If crimea is russian again that means they can build supercarriers there right?
    Or was it in a different part of ukraine where they were building the ulyanovsk class?

    TR1
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  TR1 on Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:57 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:If crimea is russian again that means they can build supercarriers there right?
    Or was it in a different part of ukraine where they were building the ulyanovsk class?

    Nikolayev is not in the Crimea, and it can't build super anything right now.

    Flyingdutchman
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:00 pm

    And so it begins............



    http://www.dw.de/ukrainian-soldier-killed-as-troops-storm-simferopol-base/a-17504202

    GarryB
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:51 am

    Lets wait for independent confirmation... so far it sounds like Ukrainian coup propaganda...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    TR1
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    Re: Crimea's integration into Russian Federation:

    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:58 am

    Some local sniper shot A Ukrainian soldier it looks like.

    RIP.

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