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    Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

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    AlfaT8
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:58 pm

    Kyo wrote:Here we go again. Chapter 2 of the Swedish hysteria over Russian submarines near Stockholm.

    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150111/1016767901.html
    Ok, so either the Swedes have gone Cucu for Russian subs or Russia has an actual Red October sub in the area.
    I know it's the former, but i honestly hope it's the latter. pirat

    flamming_python
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:05 pm

    Title should read: Sweden & Finland will join NATO in 2015 or ELSE Smile

    Would more accurately reflect the reality really.

    Battalion0415
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:31 pm

    New size will be these:

    Home Guards - 18637
    Army - 11363
    Air Force - 8000

    Total: 38000 soldiers.

    Swedish Armed Forces this year for general Sverker Goransson.

    Regemente in Boden of 6000 soldiers.

    One brigade in Ostersund of 2363 soldiers.

    Two skyttebataljoner i Stockholm of 600+600.

    En bataljon in Gotland plus one jeager brigade in Norrland of 600+1200.

    Rest will be Home Guards around Skovde and Linkoping and down.

    And 8000 personnal in Air Force.

    I do not know reserve force. Maybe no one.

    jocolor

    Battalion0415
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:30 pm

    My top-3:

    1.23000 - Home Guards, Army, Air Force, Navy + 5000 in reserve.
    2.38000 - Home Guards, Army, Air Force plus no reserve.
    3.60000 - Army plus no reserve force. Big gerilla Army.

    In Swedish Army.

    I didn't like 38000 forces most even Sverker Goransson choise this next month if I know right. Only second best.

    100 Gripen C/D goes down to 60 like new Gripen E/F of 60 in season 2025-2026.

    17 EF Typhoon to 23000 size are best.

    Sweden join NATO with new size this year. Joins NATO 2016 or 2018.


    Last edited by Battalion0415 on Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:44 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Biggest third place. Plus my favorite.)

    Battalion0415
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:58 am

    Or 22 Rafale to my favorite size. 15 for one division + 2 for Gotland + 5 for NATO tactics.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:56 pm

    40 Rafale I think now.

    Great french air planes.

    Division's of 15+15 in Saternas and Uppsala and 10 in NATO.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  George1 on Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:17 pm

    Battalion0415 wrote:40 Rafale I think now.

    Great french air planes.

    Division's of 15+15 in Saternas and Uppsala and 10 in NATO.

    are u speaking alone?

    Battalion0415
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:33 pm

    No.

    Battalion0415
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:41 pm

    30 C/D and rest C/D became E/F in 2026 of 70 pers.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:55 pm

    Now I am will 40 Super Hornets from United States.


    Last edited by Battalion0415 on Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changes stiles of fighter jets.)

    Battalion0415
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:00 pm

    41000 and with 3000 Navy size in 2020 if general of Sweden's Armed Forces will in 2020 so they can wait to have 1+2 submarines between 2020-2024 finished to leverans. 3 in Gotland class away from buisness. They are closed to 30 year to have them left in Navy. My favorite size 41000 and with Navy in Armed Forces. And with 40 Super Hornets I am will in this time of lifetime. Close to restart this life with war and religions what I will.

    Träfflich me old friends again. Many vodka times. And school again.

    Battalion0415
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:27 pm

    Swedish Armed Forces:

    Navy - 6000 and half is Marines in Gotland, Sthlm and Östersund.

    Air Force - 8000 personnal.

    - This strenght in 2015 of 14000 seeman and soldiers.
    - Reserves in Boden of 26000 soldiers.
    - 42 Leopard A5 in 2019 after modernization.
    - 9 new Blackhawk it been totally 24 Blackhawk. Orders in 2016.
    - 12 Apache orders in 2016-2017.
    - Two division's C/D of 30 Gripen.
    - 5 submarines between 2020-2023 and go 20 years forward.
    - Then it will been 60 new Gripen or 30 Super Hornets in 2022 or 2024-26.
    - General Göransson choise Army away. Only in reserves the Army.

    Maybe this.

    Is writen this sizes in Global Fire Power 2014.

    29th place in 106 country list.

    yes sir

    Edit. Sweden and Finland have own alliance in Navy in Baltic Sea.


    Last edited by Battalion0415 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:40 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Spelling. Ones Armies Groups away.)

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:00 pm

    Thinking of professionel Armed Forces of 160,000 starts 2025.

    Maybe 400 or 450 Super Jas sell out lands before 2022. Half million of one plane. Is much money.

    Maybe Sweden will choise 160,000 starts in 2020.

    Much money from selling in out lands bring bigger troops in Swedish Army.

    60 from beginning go to 100 new Gripen E/F in big troops size.

    Orders 100-120 Airbus from Germany.

    15000 in Navy so we build one small air craft carrier. Finished in 2022. Of 3000 seeman.

    20 destroyers new in. 5 submarines between 2020-2023.

    Plus more in Navy. Plus Marines.

    Maybe 90 new Leopard A5 in so we have 200 in totally.

    90 MLRS orders in 2019-2020.

    100,000 soldiers in Army. 45000 personnal in Air Force.

    9 new Blackhawk so we have 60 helicopters total.

    Plus 25 Apache from United States.

    I like size of 160,000 how are bigger second war size of 120,000 from beginning.

    Winter war destroy around seven tousand swedish troops in north Finland.

    This swedish defence will cost around 10 billion euros.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:18 pm

    Battalion0415 wrote:Thinking of professionel Armed Forces of 160,000 starts 2025.

    Maybe 400 or 450 Super Jas sell out lands before 2022. Half million of one plane. Is much money.

    60 from beginning go to 100 new Gripen E/F in big troops size.

    Orders 100 Airbus from Germany.

    Plus more in Navy. Plus Marines.

    9 new Blackhawk so we have 60 helicopters total.

    This swedish defence will cost around 10 billion euros.

    Or will be 88000 with big Air Force then 50000 in Army. Concripts Army. Many swedes will these one.

    Thinking 60 new Gripen E/F is wrong.

    100 Airbus orders from Germany like before post.

    60 helicopters is perfect.

    It will cost us 7-8 billion euros this concripts Army per year.

    This is nearly better before post outside Navy and near South Africa troops. Vice versa so have South Africa one Navy but no this concripts Army in Sweden. And South Africa have orders new Gripen E/F in futures.

    No Navy and Marines in this one.

    Edit1. Will am 75 Super Hornets orders in 2023-2027 like Finland from United States? 15 per year to defence.

    Edit2. In 2022 is finished this new Army outside professionel Army. Recruits starts in 2016 or 2017.


    Last edited by Battalion0415 on Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Super Hornets after Gripen C/D.)

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:43 am

    Good influense.

    Only if Germany have 42000 in first size i'm wills bigger force in Sweden.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Battalion0415 on Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:08 am

    Swedish Army.

    - One strenght in 2015.

    6000 soldiers in southern Sweden with 7 battalion's. Planned allready.

    Edit1. 9 new Blackhawk. Orders in 2016.

    Sweden have total 24 Blackhawk and only 24 finished jobs of helicopters in Swedish Air Force.

    Edit2. Wills 30 or 45 Leopard A5 in future defence.

    Edit3. It will been 60/70/80 JAS 39-E/F in future defence.


    Last edited by Battalion0415 on Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:20 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Plannes...)

    Kyo
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Kyo on Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:12 am

    Sweden is getting pathetic:

    Sweden suspects up to 4 subs violated its waters – report
    Published time: January 25, 2015 17:56
    Reuters/Marko SavalaReuters/Marko Savala

    The Swedish military now believes that not one, but up to four foreign submarines were operating in the Stockholm Archipelago in mid-October last year, a source within the country’s armed forces said.

    An unidentified sub was allegedly spotted in Swedish waters on several occasions, October 17-19, 2014.

    This led to a two-week submarine hunt, the Swedish military’s largest operation since the Cold War, but it turned out fruitless, despite the media hype.

    Earlier this month, the Swedish military said it spotted another foreign sub in its territorial waters on October 31 and organized a search operation, which also proved futile.

    The Swedish media alleged the operation in mid-October could’ve been a hunt for a “damaged Russian submarine,” but Moscow has repeatedly denied the claims.

    But now after analyzing the evidence, the armed forces concluded that three or even four vessels violated Sweden’s territorial waters in October 2014, a “central source” told the local Dagens Industri newspaper.

    Rear Admiral Anders Grenstad, deputy chief of operations at the Swedish Armed Forces, confirmed to the paper that the military “suspects there may be several vessels,” but stressed “he doesn’t know how many there were.”

    In his other interview with Tidningarnas Telegrambyra news agency, Grenstad said the official investigation of the incident won’t be completed until March, with the military yet to decide whether to go public with their findings.

    Chairman of Sweden’s parliamentary Defense Committee, Allan Widman, described the report in Dagens Industri as “very worrying.”

    "Three to four sounds like a comprehensive foreign underwater operation, if the information is correct. It seems this business is more extensive than what I thought based on the information that was given at the press conference [by the Swedish military on November 14],” he said.

    With the October hunt yielding no result, Widman had to acknowledge that Sweden’s capability to detect foreign submarines has deteriorated drastically compared to the Cold War times of the 1980s and 1990s.

    The Defense Committee chairman said the country urgently needed to boost its fleet of helicopters with anti-submarine capabilities.

    He said NATO’s NHIndustries NH90 helicopter project has been “a nightmare for Sweden” as it’s “gone on for thirteen years without reaching any of its goals” and is only expected to have anti-submarine capabilities by 2020.

    "The fastest way now I believe is not to continue the project, but to make a direct purchase of a maritime operations helicopter from the US,” Widman stressed.

    Werewolf
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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:35 am

    Lobbyism and war propaganda in one move nothing else, US bribes many people and scares even more in believing of Putin throwing little children from their bikes and stealing lolipops.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  richsu on Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:10 pm

    Battalion0415, it is quite hard to understand your 'agenda' here...


    The general opinion of the public in Sweden is that no one really wants to join Nato but when Russia is visiting with their submarines very close to
    the capital and fly close to commercial airlines with their fighter planes without any reasons, it is Russia who pushes Sweden towards Nato.

    Sweden just wants to be left alone, but if swedes are forced to chose a side, it will always be the Nato side.

    No russian submarines a few miles from the capital --> No Nato membership.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:34 pm

    richsu wrote:Battalion0415, it is quite hard to understand your 'agenda' here...


    The general opinion of the public in Sweden is that no one really wants to join Nato but when Russia is visiting with their submarines very close to
    the capital and fly close to commercial airlines with their fighter planes without any reasons, it is Russia who pushes Sweden towards Nato.

    Sweden just wants to be left alone, but if swedes are forced to chose a side, it will always be the Nato side.

    No russian submarines a few miles from the capital --> No Nato membership.

    Yes, sure the russian submarines...and yes it is also the russian jets that are "aggressive" in international waters, not NATO planes constantly trying to get closer and closer to russian airspace and already have abused in incidents and were flying to close to russian airliners.

    It is not Russia driving Sweden towards NATO it is traitor oligarchic Swedisch political slaves that do that, there was no submarine only warmongering and fearmongering of the stupid average citizen to justify NATO integration.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  richsu on Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:37 pm

    Exactly the attittude that brings Sweden closer to Nato I'm afraid.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:56 pm

    richsu wrote:Battalion0415, it is quite hard to understand your 'agenda' here...


    The general opinion of the public in Sweden is that no one really wants to join Nato but when Russia is visiting with their submarines very close to
    the capital and fly close to commercial airlines with their fighter planes without any reasons, it is Russia who pushes Sweden towards Nato.

    Sweden just wants to be left alone, but if swedes are forced to chose a side, it will always be the Nato side.

    No russian submarines a few miles from the capital --> No Nato membership.

    All the circus aside - is there any evidence that it was a Russian sub down there?
    Scant few details have been released.

    The problem is that Sweden has a very, very obvious anti-Russian agenda and has had one for quite some years, and if it's floating false rumours about chasing down a Russian sub - it wouldn't be the first time that it would have done so.

    I remember the uproar a couple years back about how Russian planes were supposedly practising a 'bombing run' against Sweden. What actually happened, what we know, is that some 2 Su-34s or Su-30SMs (forget which) headed on a trajectory towards Swedish airspace, but then changed their course about 10-15km from Swedish airspace.

    They could have been practising any kind of manuever. It could have been related to Sweden, it could have not been. It could have been anything actually, even just a normal flight bearing and course correction.

    Yet the Swedish media, or Swedish MoD expects us to believe that it has some magic means of scrying, by which it was actually able to see into the cockpit and discern what the Russians were planning.
    Well the only other way I guess would be to intercept and decode Russian communications - but if the Swedes had that capability, they sure as hell wouldn't let the whole world (and consenquently Russia) know about it.

    This fits into the other pattern of BS I noticed recently, all the accusations of Russian military aircraft flying with their transponders off and every other means of identification, not agreeing their flight paths or informing any airspace authorities.
    Well the Russian MoD recently vehemently denied such accusations.

    So who's lying? My bet is on the Western NATO allies - it's in their interests to demonize the Russians as much as possible.
    Conversely, it's not really in the Russian's interests to create bad PR for themselves, endanger civilian airtraffic, try and provoke Sweden into joining NATO, etc... go ahead and think for yourself.

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  richsu on Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:08 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    richsu wrote:Battalion0415, it is quite hard to understand your 'agenda' here...


    The general opinion of the public in Sweden is that no one really wants to join Nato but when Russia is visiting with their submarines very close to
    the capital and fly close to commercial airlines with their fighter planes without any reasons, it is Russia who pushes Sweden towards Nato.

    Sweden just wants to be left alone, but if swedes are forced to chose a side, it will always be the Nato side.

    No russian submarines a few miles from the capital --> No Nato membership.

    All the circus aside - is there any evidence that it was a Russian sub down there?
    Scant few details have been released.

    The problem is that Sweden has a very, very obvious anti-Russian agenda and has had one for quite some years, and if it's floating false rumours about chasing down a Russian sub - it wouldn't be the first time that it would have done so.

    I remember the uproar a couple years back about how Russian planes were supposedly practising a 'bombing run' against Sweden. What actually happened, what we know, is that some 2 Su-34s or Su-30SMs (forget which) headed on a trajectory towards Swedish airspace, but then changed their course about 10-15km from Swedish airspace.

    They could have been practising any kind of manuever. It could have been related to Sweden, it could have not been. It could have been anything actually, even just a normal flight bearing and course correction.

    Yet the Swedish media, or Swedish MoD expects us to believe that it has some magic means of scrying, by which it was actually able to see into the cockpit and discern what the Russians were planning.
    Well the only other way I guess would be to intercept and decode Russian communications - but if the Swedes had that capability, they sure as hell wouldn't let the whole world (and consenquently Russia) know about it.

    This fits into the other pattern of BS I noticed recently, all the accusations of Russian military aircraft flying with their transponders off and every other means of identification, not agreeing their flight paths or informing any airspace authorities.
    Well the Russian MoD recently vehemently denied such accusations.

    So who's lying? My bet is on the Western NATO allies - it's in their interests to demonize the Russians as much as possible.
    Conversely, it's not really in the Russian's interests to create bad PR for themselves, endanger civilian airtraffic, try and provoke Sweden into joining NATO, etc... go ahead and think for yourself.

    I hear what you are saying and the fact is that US and their foreign politicts is'nt widely popular in Sweden. But if swedes are forced to chose side, it will be US/NATO.
    If the swedish goverment claims to have evidence of a russian submarine very close to the capital, and the russian government denies it. Who do you think they will believe in? Their own government ofcourse.

    I would rather see that my country (sweden, if that wasn't clear yet Wink ) didn't chose any side and that is probably still the public opinion.

    The media reporting is very one sided also, and one russian fighter jet in swedish airspace is big news while french jets (or whatever) will go unnoticed in media.


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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:46 pm

    richsu wrote:Battalion0415, it is quite hard to understand your 'agenda' here...


    The general opinion of the public in Sweden is that no one really wants to join Nato but when Russia is visiting with their submarines very close to
    the capital and fly close to commercial airlines with their fighter planes without any reasons, it is Russia who pushes Sweden towards Nato.

    Sweden just wants to be left alone, but if swedes are forced to chose a side, it will always be the Nato side.

    No russian submarines a few miles from the capital --> No Nato membership.

    What a crock of bullshit, the claim of 'Russian Submarines' were never actually proven out right at the time of the 'incident', and fast-forward months later and they still haven't found definitive evidence. BTW Russian planes were flying in international airspace. I

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    Re: Sweden and Finland NATO ambitions:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:15 am

    Hahahahaha... so if all these so called sightings will push Sweden into the arms of NATO, what do Swedes think the Russians are doing in their waters?

    Perhaps read a book:

    The Secret War Against Sweden: US and British Submarine Deception in the 1980s
    By Ola Tunander
    Psychology Press, 2004 - History - 358 pages

    Following the stranding of a Soviet Whiskey-class submarine in 1981 on the Swedish archipelago, a series of massive submarine intrusions took place within Swedish waters.

    However, the evidence for these appears to have been manipulated or simply invented. Classified documents and interviews point to covert Western, rather than Soviet activity. This is backed up by former US Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, who stated that Western "testing" operations were carried out regularly in Swedish waters. Royal Navy submarine captains have also admitted to top-secret operations.

    Ola Tunander's revelations make it clear that the United States and Britain ran a "secret war" in Swedish waters. The number of Swedes perceiving the Soviet Union as a direct threat increased from 5-10 per cent in 1980 to 45 per cent in 1983. This Anglo-American "secret war" was aimed at exerting political influence over Sweden. It was a risky enterprise, but perhaps the most successful covert operation of the entire Cold War.

    But of course the wonderful and pure and clean NATO and western powers would never want Sweden to give up neutrality and become a front line for a new cold war... would they?

    Very simply they did it before, why wouldn't they do it now?

    US forces have repeatedly violated the air and sea space of dozens of countries and has no respect for sovereignty... do you think your waters are sacred... do you think they spy on everyone except you?

    Go ahead and Join NATO... it is not as if Sweden has been neutral in the past... so nothing really changes on that score.


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