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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

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    Viktor
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Viktor on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:54 pm

    Interesting - Janes claims 57mm guns on Kurganets where taken off until parade day.


    The latter would fit with IHS Jane's understanding that there will be two principal Kurganets IFV configurations: one with a 30 mm cannon and one with a 57 mm cannon. Although covered, the apparent profile of the second Kurganets turret appears similar to that of the UralVagonZavod AU-220M turret displayed recently at IDEX in Abu Dhabi - minus its 57 mm cannon.

    The Russian Ground Forces' new Kurganets-25 infantry fighting vehicle seen during rehearsals for the 9 May Victory Day Parade in Moscow. The vehicle pictured appears to be in a command configuration, or in a 57 mm turreted version - without its main gun attached. (Russian Ministry of Defence)

    New Russian heavy armour breaks cover

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  k@llashniKoff on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:06 pm

    Viktor wrote:Interesting - Janes claims 57mm guns on Kurganets where taken off until parade day.


    The latter would fit with IHS Jane's understanding that there will be two principal Kurganets IFV configurations: one with a 30 mm cannon and one with a 57 mm cannon. Although covered, the apparent profile of the second Kurganets turret appears similar to that of the UralVagonZavod AU-220M turret displayed recently at IDEX in Abu Dhabi - minus its 57 mm cannon.

    The Russian Ground Forces' new Kurganets-25 infantry fighting vehicle seen during rehearsals for the 9 May Victory Day Parade in Moscow. The vehicle pictured appears to be in a command configuration, or in a 57 mm turreted version - without its main gun attached. (Russian Ministry of Defence)


    What? Not likely. APC version with 12,7 mg turret and IFV with "Epoha light". 57 turret in Abu Dhabi was just a model.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:59 pm


    T-14 and T-15 in the back


    T-15

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Flyboy77 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:35 pm

    After looking at a lot of the T-14 photos it looks like turret will resemble the M1 Abram but smaller. Especially form the front.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:55 pm

    ^^^ Possibly. But there are a lot humorous speculation that Russians are just teasing us, performing such a slow erotic softcore-p**n/striptease. A glimpse here, a hint there. Besides, a lot of guys still sure there is a wooden "masquerading" frame around the turret that gives it such "edgy stealthy" look similar to Abrams. Some guys even insisting that there is a APS or additional armor panels mounted on hinges (like 'wings' on T-15) around T-14's turret and currently it's just pointed up for a sake of a joke. It's kinda make sense a bit, because turret is unmanned and there is no need for all that extra volume space, so all volume of it most is likely thick protection plates. There are rumors that tarp will only be removed a day or two before mayday parade. If Russian MoD was fooling us and enjoying reading our silly comments - this we will find out soon enough. censored

    Meanwhile there are some more night time pix (available in bigger resolution on visualrian.ru)








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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Viktor on Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:53 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    The representative of the military-industrial complex: Tank "Armata" to 2020 will not be exported

    MOSCOW, April 27 - RIA Novosti. The latest Russian armored vehicles on the platforms "Armata", "Kurganets" and "Boomerang" in the next five years, the export will not work, said deputy chairman of the board of the Military-Industrial Commission (MIC) Oleg Bochkarev.

    BMP "Kurganets-25" will go into production in the years 2019-2020

    "Defense Ministry have signed state contracts with our vendors. The first part of the pilot batch" Kurgan "will be presented at this year's May 9 Victory Day parade in Moscow, and then contracted these machines the next three years. That is, from 2016 to 100 units" Kurgan "go to different regions for testing, testing, and then after processing mass production will begin in 2019-2020 years", - he said on the radio station "Echo of Moscow".

    Weight of the machine design project "Kurganets-25" does not exceed 25 tons

    The maximum number of paratroopers - eight people in full gear.

    Armor "Armata" experience in the Arctic, heat and swamps

    The first batch of equipment "Armata" appears in the parade, and will continue to be "a fairly good number of vehicles close to a hundred."


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:05 pm

    Our all-time favorite Vitaly Kuzmin posted additional pix of T-15 backside, he explained that those shots are not that "artistic" to post, but due to massive amount of requests and questions he decided to posted them. An hour or less ago. Seems like MoD is running a smart and successful PR campaign... Wink

    size is huge. Sorry it does not allow me to resize with (800px, 600 px), I'm too new I guess - no links allowed for me yet.. well, open in the new window. sorry. Can mods add (640px,480px) bb-code tag to my post plz?






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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:15 am

    Nice ... when the production starts - "they" will be ready thumbsup

    Defense Ministry has ordered the development of new guns for armored vehicles

    "Today, it is the military a new task, and the industry started manufacturing some other martial offices, there will be a different caliber from the main armament, but the crew compartment we begin to experience approximately four years - this upgrade, various options, and single base" - Bochkarev said Monday on the radio station "Echo of Moscow".



    Deputy chairman of the military-industrial complex: with the transportation of tanks "Armata" no problems

    He explained that the task allow easy transport was one of the main engineers. Bochkarev noted that even the side protecting units allow to carry new tanks without inconvenience.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:19 am

    Viktor wrote:Nice  thumbsup

    "Armata" received equipment for network-centric warfare

    Same report (more or less) in English from RT

    Network-centric: Russia’s new Armata tank ‘to absorb all battlefield intel’
    http://rt.com/news/253445-armata-tank-network-warfare/

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:02 pm

    Russian soldiers historically like ridding outside (since Aghan's 80's). From that I heard of, there are more chances of surviving in case of those sideroad TNT or similar 'big boom' under tracks. Plus, troops will be able to imidiatelly to return fire to those "freedom fighters" in ambush. Being inside squally cause more contiguous and wasting time for troops to get out. So ridding on top is risking a bullet for a few, but the rest the soldiers are able to engage enemy right away. More chances of surviving and protect yourself, although a bigger risk. That's how I see it.

    Sitting on top of vehicles is common practise when the perceived threat of combat is low, but the main risk comes from land mines... sitting on top gives better chance of spotting an ambush and also your ability to jump off and return fire immediately is much better.

    So the crew capsule and likely over-all vehicle dimensions (and armor area/weight) would become over-sized even before it enters full-rate production?
    Alternatively, perhaps they have in mind another role for a 3rd crew member to cover, e.g. organic UAV controller?

    UAV controller is a possiblity, but having two crew operating the vehicle while one crewman rests and an 8 hour rotation would keep the vehicle fully operational 24/7.

    A further crewman back at base would give you the four crewmen you would need to service the tank properly... like replace a track, but in combat you would just abandon a vehicle that loses a track and let the engineers drag it back to base... no way would you replace a track under fire.

    Three types (or 3 channel ??) detection/vision system

    Thermal, Digital optics, and likely MMW radar. the digital optics would be best for identification, but would be effected by dust, smoke, rain, and snow... and of course night.

    Previously expected the tank to be equipped with a radar, but has since been rejected- according to Sergey Maiev

    which begs the question what would be used instead of MMW? Perhaps remote optical from UAV is counted as a channel? Or perhaps Lidar? the latter would make sense as it could also detect enemy optics of Javelin or sniper scopes etc etc.

    Of course another "channel" would be audio to listen for shots and detect their direction...

    Smoothbore gun caliber 125 mm can be used as a launcher for guided missiles, in addition, twin 12 mm gun and 57 mm automatic grenade launcher.

    A belt fed 57mm weapon would be very useful... it is like the 100mm gun of the BMP-3 in that it has a very small shell case because it is a low velocity weapon that relies on shell power for performance which makes it much more compact but still very powerful...

    the original box feed with 3-5 rounds would be of little use in an unmanned turret...


    In the "Armata" you can change the location of the engine from the front to the back, add and remove the necessary arms and equipment. There are about 30 variants of transformation.

    Makes sense as each brigade will have at least 30 different vehicles from APC and MBT though engineer and air defence and artillery vehicles etc ambulance, mine clearance, ATGM carrier, TOS and other vehicles.

    Which suggests there will also be about thirty different variants of Kurganets and Boomerang too.

    So if the 45mm has been chosen then there will be no 57mm in the Army anyway.

    Hahaha... to correct myself... if the IFVs are going to be fitted with high velocity anti armour 45mm guns then they wont adopt also the high velocity 57mm gun. It appears however that they are adopting the very different 57mm grenade launcher... its shells will likely be considerably more powerful than the 30mm or 40mm grenade alternatives.

    A bit like a lighter Vasilek.

    Not true, the general principle of NERA is as old as that of ERA (~early to late 60s for both of them). Sandwiching rubber between armoured steel plates has been in use since the T-64 first rolled out. Also, I am pretty sure that T-80 had a similar NERA arrangement from the very start. Sandwiching rubber b/w steel creates an outward motion of rubber when a cumulative jet first penetrates a steel plate into the rubber underneath. This counter "jet" effectively disrupts the cumulative one, decreasing its potential penetrating power.

    perhaps I should clarify... ERA is not an option on light vehicles, and rubber between sheets of steel has never been as effective as ERA except against 1st gen ERA against APFSDS rounds... which it wasn't.

    to clarify that.... what I mean is that two sheets of metal with rubber between them (NERA) was more effective against APFSDS rounds when early model ERA did not stop APFSDS rounds. now that new ERA does, it is more effective than NERA... but they have improved NERA.

    Of course new ERA plates dont explode so if you have standoff plates on the side of the vehicle you could include ERA on the outer surface so they can be replaced easily and in the middle use NERA, and then on the inside have ERA again... then a gap of up to half a metre to the tracks and hull of the vehicle. If the outer ERA is set off but not the NERA and inner ERA then just replace the outer ERA tiles. If a deeper penetration occurs swap the entire armour skirt with a fresh one and have the damaged components on the skirt replaced... fully modular. Also as ERA and NERA further develop you can insert new versions.

    The new NERA is as effective as new ERA with the bonus that there is zero chance of sympathetic detonation of adjacent tiles and it can be used on light vehicles too... in that sense it supersedes ERA by offering the same performance without the disadvantages... and I can assure you it does not consist of two sheets of steel with rubber in the middle.

    Anyway, ERA is never going to be obsolete until someone successfully demonstrates a pure NERA that is capable of stopping 125 mm tungsten/du APFSDS rounds travelling at 1.5 km/s. Until that day, I am afraid Kontakt-5/Relikt/Nozh ERAs are the only proven ERA designs to achieve such.

    Why? none of those ERAs can do the job of stopping such a projectile without tank level armour behind it...

    The general problem with NERA is that although it has better multi-hit capability, is cheaper, less dangerous due to lack of highly explosive elements, and less bulky, it always has lesser effective stopping power versus chemical warheads than ERA of the same weight.

    I have seen plates that have been hit and only have a small hole in the outer plate with newer heavier ERA... the risk of ERA exploding all over the place are highly exaggerated.

    Modern ERA just puts a metal plate in the way of the incoming threat and moves it so as the beam continues it continues to have to cut its way through... a bit like sliding a piece of sheet metal in front of a bullet so instead of having to penetrate the thickness it has to penetrate the length of metal.

    With most NERAs I have seen they appear to have two converging metal sheets so the penetrator has to continue to penetrate both sheets but there is a risk of guillotining the incoming penetrator resulting in the need to reform the point through penetration which wastes an enormous amount of energy... further reducing penetration.

    you wont get it to the point where a light vehicle can shrug off full calibre tank gun ammo, but together with APS and indeed smoke and shtora like systems and nakidka the chance of a hit is greatly reduced.

    Counter moving armour plates that induce yaw and/or shear the kinetic penetrator (Kontakt-5), or shearing the kinetic penetrator via cumulative "knives" (Nozh) is much more effective than whatever NERA can offer.

    ERA uses explosive for that effect... NERA does the same thing, but using the energy of the projectile to get the same effect.  Wink

    However, I am pretty sure that an effective combination of ERA/NERA which is more effective than either on its own does exist.

    Russians have a history of trying all sorts of things to make their tanks safer... not many western equivalents of APS, let alone Shtora, Nakidka, ERA, etc etc...

    Interesting - Janes claims 57mm guns on Kurganets where taken off until parade day.

    Probably just making assumptions to explain the 30mm cannon on an IFV... it doesn't make sense so perhaps they have jumped to the conclusion they wont fit the 57mm gun till the actual parade.

    Of course we have seen a lot about the 57mm gun and very little about the 45mm gun... if we look back in history in the 1980s we saw the Mi-28A first and the Ka-50 much later but the Ka-50 was the chosen aircraft and the information about the Mi-28 was released early for export potential.... based on that can we assume the 45mm has won as TR-1s source suggests?

    I think it makes sense.


    Last edited by GarryB on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clarity)


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:41 pm

    Sounds like sensetionalistic bullshit.

    true... it does... but I suspect that in the 1960s if you heard rumours about the new plane to replace the U-2 that was called the RS-71 that could fly at mach 3 for thousands of kms at high altitude and was made from titanium you would probably think that was BS too.


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Sounds like sensetionalistic bullshit.

    true... it does... but I suspect that in the 1960s if you heard rumours about the new plane to replace the U-2 that was called the RS-71 that could fly at mach 3 for thousands of kms at high altitude and was made from titanium you would probably think that was BS too.

    Like most people i will believe it when i see it, no russia Stronkk here just plain and simple unlikely.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:31 pm

    alexZam wrote:^^^ Possibly. But there are a lot humorous speculation that Russians are just teasing us, performing such a slow erotic softcore-p**n/striptease. A glimpse here, a hint there. Besides, a lot of guys still sure there is a wooden "masquerading" frame around the turret that gives it such "edgy stealthy" look similar to Abrams. Some guys even insisting that there is a APS or additional armor panels mounted on hinges (like 'wings' on T-15) around T-14's turret and currently it's just pointed up for a sake of a joke. It's kinda make sense a bit, because turret is unmanned and there is no need for all that extra volume space, so all volume of it most is likely thick protection plates. There are rumors that tarp will only be removed a day or two before mayday parade. If Russian MoD was fooling us and enjoying reading our silly comments - this we will find out soon enough. censored

    Meanwhile there are some more night time pix (available in bigger resolution on visualrian.ru)


    Good post.

    Anyway now reliable measurement can be performed. The tank is carried onboard KAMAZ truck.. It's 2.5 m in width and around 7.5 m in length.

    Eyeballing the Armata..it's width is around 3 m.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:42 pm

    If they were going for sensational BS I am sure they could have slipped the term Nano in there somewhere... but sure... lets see. Smile


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:54 pm

    152mm WILL be on the tank, but not right away. And it will be electrochemical, and has already been financed by the MOD.

    I think any modern reference to 152 mm smooth-bore guns is to be replaced with 155 mm, be it as it may the nominal caliber or the actual caliber. I think smooth-bore gun calibers ending in "5 mm" became a standard starting with the 115 mm.


    Protection ...: instead they will use 'electro, plasma polymers, graphene

    I think in this context the author has mixed up the relationship between technologies and their applications.

    The terms "electro" and "plasma" refer probably to electrochemical guns in this context.

    The terms "polymer" and "graphene" refer to armor and other structural members using high-mass-density polymers and graphene.

    While high-density polymer armor are very revolutionary, I think they would probably be part of Armata's armor suite. I think even RIAN had announced this.

    I am sure the rest of these technologies have been in service in Russia, but for now wouldn't be part of systems that are for public showing. After all, all of these are just decoys, a la BT-5 and BT-7, as I have written about previously.



    Claims crew in the next 5-6 years will be cut down to 2- FOR SURE.

    Technologically this is easy for Russia to do, but I think tactically it is unlikely. One of the tank's main roles is to provide battlefield stability, and for this role a crew size of 3 is probably optimal. Two human crew members and one android is also acceptable.  Smile

    I am certain that tanks and tank destroyers with a crew size of even zero have been in Russian service for a long time, but they are really robotic combat vehicles.



    45mm has been chosen as firm replacement for 30mm- already has started testing with new rounds

    In 1994 Russians even announced 45 mm guns that were drop-in compatible with 2A42.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Acheron on Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:52 pm

    alexZam wrote:Our all-time favorite Vitaly Kuzmin posted additional pix of T-15 backside, he explained that those shots are not that "artistic" to post, but due to massive amount of requests and questions he decided to posted them. An hour or less ago. Seems like MoD is running a smart and successful PR campaign... Wink

    Is it me, or is there slat armour on top of the dismounting ramp at the back?
    Does anyone else see a problem with that?


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:58 pm

    Acheron wrote:
    alexZam wrote:Our all-time favorite Vitaly Kuzmin posted additional pix of T-15 backside, he explained that those shots are not that "artistic" to post, but due to massive amount of requests and questions he decided to posted them. An hour or less ago. Seems like MoD is running a smart and successful PR campaign... Wink

    Is it me, or is there slat armour on top of the dismounting ramp at the back?
    Does anyone else see a problem with that?


    Not really, that points out that it is used as a ramp.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  jhelb on Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:43 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Electro, plasma polymer and graphene might refers to a new composite armor array AND some sort of "Electric reactive armor" That electric one works against shaped charge by inducing magnetic field, messing with the jet's structure.  


    The new type of armour will use pulses of electrical energy to repel rockets, shrapnel and other ammunition that might damage a vehicle.

    Researchers at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl), which is the research and development arm of the Ministry of Defence, claim it is possible to incorporate material known as supercapacitors into armour of a vehicle to turn it into a kind of giant battery.

    When a threat from incoming fire is detected by the vehicle, the energy stored in the supercapacitor can be rapidly dumped onto the metal plating on the outside of the vehicle, producing a strong electromagnetic field.

    Scientists behind the project claim this would produce a momentary "force field" capable of repelling the incoming rounds and projectiles



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7487740/Star-Trek-style-force-field-armour-being-developed-by-military-scientists.html

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Acheron on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:23 pm

    The new NERA is as effective as new ERA with the bonus that there is zero chance of sympathetic detonation of adjacent tiles and it can be used on light vehicles too... in that sense it supersedes ERA by offering the same performance without the disadvantages... and I can assure you it does not consist of two sheets of steel with rubber in the middle.

    Of course. Instead it consists of two sheets of "insert preferred type of metal here" with "insert your exotic filler material name here" in the middle. The mechanism of operation of NERA, has not changed since its inception. In fact, there is less variation in NERA designs than there is of ERA designs, since NERA has to use a certain physical principle which causes a buckling of the outside plates due to the hydrostatic shock waves within the filler material. The best you can do with NERA is to change the filler material (such as in various soviet tanks, where everything from rubber to quartz was used) or to sandwich a multitude of such NERA layers (such as in T-72B).
    However, with ERA, we have everything from moving plates to cumulative jets.


    Counter moving armour plates that induce yaw and/or shear the kinetic penetrator (Kontakt-5), or shearing the kinetic penetrator via cumulative "knives" (Nozh) is much more effective than whatever NERA can offer.

    ERA uses explosive for that effect... NERA does the same thing, but using the energy of the projectile to get the same effect.  Wink

    The problem is that this effect is not as powerful. I remember looking at a graph that had a comparison of the penetrating qualities of kinetic and chemical penetrators after passing through NERA/ERA, with the ERA being the most effective at reducing the penetrating qualities. I think up to 90%. In comparison, the best NERA designs achieve 60-70%.
    If you are interested in more information about dynamic (ERA+NERA) armour design concepts, google for: "ОСНОВНЫЕ НАПРАВЛЕНИЯ РАЗВИТИЯ ЗАЩИТНЫХ УСТРОЙСТВ ДИНАМИЧЕСКОГО ТИПА, ПРОБЛЕМЫ, ПЕРСПЕКТИВЫ"
    Also, to see more data about NERA designs (comparison of effects of different filler materials + comparison with ERA), google for: "Принципиальные особенности функционирования ЗУДТ невзрывного действия"

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:43 pm

    jhelb wrote:

    The new type of armour will use pulses of electrical energy to repel rockets, shrapnel and other ammunition that might damage a vehicle.

    Researchers at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl), which is the research and development arm of the Ministry of Defence, claim it is possible to incorporate material known as supercapacitors into armour of a vehicle to turn it into a kind of giant battery.

    When a threat from incoming fire is detected by the vehicle, the energy stored in the supercapacitor can be rapidly dumped onto the metal plating on the outside of the vehicle, producing a strong electromagnetic field.

    Scientists behind the project claim this would produce a momentary "force field" capable of repelling the incoming rounds and projectiles



    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7487740/Star-Trek-style-force-field-armour-being-developed-by-military-scientists.html


    Well.. The IEEE paper that i read didn't say a thing about "repelling projectiles" uh and yeah..apparently not magnetic field but high current.

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/263431176/Electric-Armor-Against-Shaped-Charges-Analysis-of-Jet-Distortion-With-Respect-to-Jet-Dynamics


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  k@llashniKoff on Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:17 am


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:21 am

    Are they going to mount ERA/NERA tiles right beneath the angled NERA/ERA tiles above the engine exhaust pipe, because there is a spot unprotected?

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:31 am

    It's soo beautiful...top notch.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Acheron on Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:24 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Are they going to mount ERA/NERA tiles right beneath the angled NERA/ERA tiles above the engine exhaust pipe, because there is a spot unprotected?

    That's a good question. By extrapolation of the fact that at each public appearance of this vehicle its armour coverage seems to be significantly iterated upon, we can assume that this is still not the final state of the vehicle that is going to be presented on the 9th of May.
    Even after that day, I still expect modifications in the external armour modules of this vehicle as a result of testing and throughout its service.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:29 pm

    Acheron wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Are they going to mount ERA/NERA tiles right beneath the angled NERA/ERA tiles above the engine exhaust pipe, because there is a spot unprotected?

    That's a good question. By extrapolation of the fact that at each public appearance of this vehicle its armour coverage seems to be significantly iterated upon, we can assume that this is still not the final state of the vehicle that is going to be presented on the 9th of May.
    Even after that day, I still expect modifications in the external armour modules of this vehicle as a result of testing and throughout its service.

    I really hope so. When looking at the T-15 armor it seems like it lacks NERA/ERA on top near the engine compartment door, i hope they give both the engine compartment door and the gaps from it to the sideskirts to smoothen it up and providing more protection.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

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