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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

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    mack8
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  mack8 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:29 am

    Not sure if this link has been posted before, but lots of high quality pictures of the new vehicles from V. Kuzmin:
    http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/601

    Zivo
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:11 am

    T-15's backside.







    Not sure if this link has been posted before, but lots of high quality pictures of the new vehicles from V. Kuzmin:
    http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/601

    At a glance nothing groundbreaking. Still that's a good selection of photos.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  TR1 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:12 am

    There are some differences on the Boomerang's glacis, from vehicle to vehicle.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  kvs on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:20 am

    Zivo wrote:T-15's backside.







    Not sure if this link has been posted before, but lots of high quality pictures of the new vehicles from V. Kuzmin:
    http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/601

    At a glance nothing groundbreaking. Still that's a good selection of photos.

    Haha I can see these photos being used to prove Russian army presence in Ukraine.

    attack

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:35 am

    Zivo wrote:T-15's backside.

    At a glance nothing groundbreaking. Still that's a good selection of photos.

    Finally, at least a blury glance of the back of T-15..

    Meanwhile model-makers @Otvaga forum strike again!

    Animated 3d view. GIF:


    Last edited by alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:10 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:44 am

    TR1 wrote:There are some differences on the Boomerang's glacis, from vehicle to vehicle.

    Some appear to have a currently unused bracket system for mounting something next to the driver's hatch.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  xeno on Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:14 am

    TR1 wrote:http://topwar.ru/index.php?do=lastcomments&userid=60226

    Intersting info from Alex, overall a relatively reliable "insider":

    -152mm WILL be on the tank, but not right away. And it will be electrochemical, and has already been financed by the MOD.
    -Tanks are not final products, half of the ones already made will be sent to Kubinka to be flogged the other back to UVZ. This includes the T-15.
    -Protection.....make of this what you will, but I just translating what he said:
    -traditional  ERA has become outdated in terms of potential
    -instead they will use 'electro, plasma polymers, graphene" <--------anyone with a background should comment here.
    -APS will be very advanced, multi-shot, with automatic reloading.
    -Electrical transmission
    -Claims crew in the next 5-6 years will be cut down to 2- FOR SURE.
    -45mm has been chosen as firm replacement for 30mm- already has started testing with new rounds- YAY
    -Armata program so far has full funding, no sequester.

    Anyways yeah.
    The guy has generally been proven more right than GurKhan has in their big Armata debate....how much of the above will come to fruition I cannot say.

    Like a dream if were true...

    BTW, can you clarify "-Electrical transmission" does he mean Armata has it now or in the future?


    Last edited by xeno on Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:15 am

    Zivo wrote:
    TR1 wrote:There are some differences on the Boomerang's glacis, from vehicle to vehicle.

    Some appear to have a currently unused bracket system for mounting something next to the driver's hatch.

    AND mounts for thicker armor plates (size of those bolts is bigger).


    Last edited by alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:37 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:04 am

    TR1 wrote:http://topwar.ru/index.php?do=lastcomments&userid=60226

    Intersting info from Alex, overall a relatively reliable "insider":

    -152mm WILL be on the tank, but not right away. And it will be electrochemical, and has already been financed by the MOD.
    -Tanks are not final products, half of the ones already made will be sent to Kubinka to be flogged the other back to UVZ. This includes the T-15.
    -Protection.....make of this what you will, but I just translating what he said:
    -traditional  ERA has become outdated in terms of potential
    -instead they will use 'electro, plasma polymers, graphene" <--------anyone with a background should comment here.
    -APS will be very advanced, multi-shot, with automatic reloading.
    -Electrical transmission
    -Claims crew in the next 5-6 years will be cut down to 2- FOR SURE.
    -45mm has been chosen as firm replacement for 30mm- already has started testing with new rounds- YAY
    -Armata program so far has full funding, no sequester.

    Anyways yeah.
    The guy has generally been proven more right than GurKhan has in their big Armata debate....how much of the above will come to fruition I cannot say.

    ETC.. interesting, though i don't really see advantages on it over conventional gun we have today.

    Electro, plasma polymer and graphene might refers to a new composite armor array AND some sort of "Electric reactive armor" That electric one works against shaped charge by inducing magnetic field, messing with the jet's structure.

    2 man tank would be very interesting, it would means highly automated tank with computer as the gunner, commander will only need to "point where to shoot" Or sort of advanced networking, where friendly asset around the tank can actually gain control of the tank's firepower.

    Maintenance wise however it would be pretty much like fighter aircraft. It would have its own maintenance team. Or perhaps each tank platoon (my own guess.. dunno about Russian tank organization) may form its own maintenance team.


    About the ERA.. Well yes with appearance of small surface area and segmented penetrators in the west.. It would challenge ERA as it can puncture through without blowing.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:33 am

    Met some good remark regarding frontal armor "wings" on T-15: it is mounted on hinges and can be pointed up during transportation or on some of those tight narrow streets during urban battles. I can see it might be used as impromptu shield for extra protection for those guys who like to ride on BMP instead of inside of it. That's pretty much 99% of them Surprised

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:41 am

    alexZam wrote:Met some good remark regarding frontal armor "wings" on T-15: it is mounted on hinges and can be pointed up during transportation or on some of those tight narrow streets during urban battles. I can see it might be used as impromptu shield for extra protection for those guys who like to ride on BMP instead of inside of it. That's pretty much 99% of them Surprised

    I am pretty sure that those "wings" are for protection of the engine bay, and they folded them up so that they wouldn't hit anything.

    If it can be folded up intentionally to provide some shelter for additional occupants(why would they ride outside? Maybe on the march to decrease # of vehicles needed to transport an entire platoon?)

    then thats just extra gravy on top of a perfect turkey.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:48 am

    the 152mm ETC gun bit is music to my ears. for reference, the swiss 140mm gun (conventional) can push an apfsds through 1m of rha steel. a 152mm gun can perform up to at least that level, but no, they apparently want an ETC version of it Twisted Evil . might as well call the weapon and its ammo Gae Bolg (gay bulge?  Laughing ) for not giving a fck about enemy armor and going through anyways.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:53 am

    2SPOOKY4U wrote:
    alexZam wrote:Met some good remark regarding frontal armor "wings" on T-15: it is mounted on hinges and can be pointed up during transportation or on some of those tight narrow streets during urban battles. I can see it might be used as impromptu shield for extra protection for those guys who like to ride on BMP instead of inside of it. That's pretty much 99% of them Surprised

    I am pretty sure that those "wings" are for protection of the engine bay, and they folded them up so that they wouldn't hit anything.

    If it can be folded up intentionally to provide some shelter for additional occupants(why would they ride outside? Maybe on the march to decrease # of vehicles needed to transport an entire platoon?)

    then thats just extra gravy on top of a perfect turkey.

    Russian soldiers historically like ridding outside (since Aghan's 80's). From that I heard of, there are more chances of surviving in case of those sideroad TNT or similar 'big boom' under tracks. Plus, troops will be able to imidiatelly to return fire to those "freedom fighters" in ambush. Being inside squally cause more contiguous and wasting time for troops to get out. So ridding on top is risking a bullet for a few, but the rest the soldiers are able to engage enemy right away. More chances of surviving and protect yourself, although a bigger risk. That's how I see it. dunno


    Last edited by alexZam on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  2SPOOKY4U on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:53 am

    TR1 wrote:http://topwar.ru/index.php?do=lastcomments&userid=60226

    Intersting info from Alex, overall a relatively reliable "insider":

    -152mm WILL be on the tank, but not right away. And it will be electrochemical, and has already been financed by the MOD.
    -Tanks are not final products, half of the ones already made will be sent to Kubinka to be flogged the other back to UVZ. This includes the T-15.
    -Protection.....make of this what you will, but I just translating what he said:
    -traditional  ERA has become outdated in terms of potential
    -instead they will use 'electro, plasma polymers, graphene" <--------anyone with a background should comment here.
    -APS will be very advanced, multi-shot, with automatic reloading.
    -Electrical transmission
    -Claims crew in the next 5-6 years will be cut down to 2- FOR SURE.
    -45mm has been chosen as firm replacement for 30mm- already has started testing with new rounds- YAY
    -Armata program so far has full funding, no sequester.

    Anyways yeah.
    The guy has generally been proven more right than GurKhan has in their big Armata debate....how much of the above will come to fruition I cannot say.

    1. Awesome, can't wait for mp.net butthurt.
    2. Not final product? Does that mean their will be a major change from prototype to serial?
    3.
    Electro probably means electroslag melted steel. I remember that they made some alloy called "Damascus" or whatever, I'll find the link.
    Plasma Polymers probably means Polymers made with high temperature methods. Something new and innovative.
    Graphene is a really tough material, since nanofibers were discovered in the 70s by the USSR, I am sure they know what they are doing.
    Electrical Transmission, sounds like an automatic to me. Me thinks it will be tied into the overall vehicle electronic system to get max performance.
    5-6, sounds like an AI system will be taking over gunner, and Commander just points. Not that big of a step considering how easy the gunner's job is in the T-90MS
    45mm for kurganets or for the autocannon supposedly on the T-14 turret?
    Full funding for a military program in Russia? It can't..possibly..be..



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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  mutantsushi on Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:14 am

    TR1 wrote:-Claims crew in the next 5-6 years will be cut down to 2- FOR SURE.
    So the crew capsule and likely over-all vehicle dimensions (and armor area/weight) would become over-sized even before it enters full-rate production?
    Alternatively, perhaps they have in mind another role for a 3rd crew member to cover, e.g. organic UAV controller?

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Regular on Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:21 am

    alexZam wrote:
    Russian soldiers historically like ridding outside (since Aghan's 80's). From that I heard of, there are more chances of surviving in case of those sideroad TNT or similar 'big boom' under tracks. Plus, troops will be able to imidiatelly to return fire to those "freedom fighters" in ambush. Being inside squally cause more contiguous and wasting time for troops to get out. So ridding on top is risking a bullet for a few, but the rest the soldiers are able to engage enemy right away. More chances of surviving and protect yourself, although a bigger risk. That's how I see it. dunno
    You will hardly see them riding on top Kurganets-25. But You are right, US soldiers were sitting on top of their M113 in Vietnam too for same reasons.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:03 am

    New video with some interesting info from the head of the main Armored Directorate Ministry of Defense of Russia (1996 - 2004) Sergey Maiev.

    On Otvaga they're saying you can't take all his says as 100% guaranteed but still...


    The secrets of the Armata
    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201504260950-qyc9.htm

    Some interesting points from the video

    Information system for the control of the movement of the machine
    Information system for Fire control.
    Three types (or 3 channel ??) detection/vision system

    Previously expected the tank to be equipped with a radar, but has since been rejected- according to Sergey Maiev

    Digital systems increase the speed of any of the operations and shall connect "Armata" with any other technique which is equipped with a computer.


    The speed of the machine itself provides a diesel engine with 1500 horsepower. Terrain, acceleration and speed qualities leave behind the current flagship T-90, and a power reserve of "Armata gives it a range of at least 500 kilometers. It can accelerate from 0-70km/h in 5-10 sec

    Smoothbore gun caliber 125 mm can be used as a launcher for guided missiles, in addition, twin 12 mm gun and 57 mm automatic grenade launcher.


    In the "Armata" you can change the location of the engine from the front to the back, add and remove the necessary arms and equipment. There are about 30 variants of transformation.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:11 am

    alexZam wrote:Met some good remark regarding frontal armor "wings" on T-15: it is mounted on hinges and can be pointed up during transportation or on some of those tight narrow streets during urban battles. I can see it might be used as impromptu shield for extra protection for those guys who like to ride on BMP instead of inside of it. That's pretty much 99% of them Surprised

    Meh already tested during Burlak turret program, the panels mounted in such a way. It wasn't retained. But who knows. ANd the area protected is likely the engine.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:34 am

    So if the 45mm has been chosen then there will be no 57mm in the Army anyway.

    -traditional ERA has become outdated in terms of potential

    rendered obsolete with NERA...

    -instead they will use 'electro, plasma polymers, graphene" <--------anyone with a background should comment here.

    Don't confuse as one thing... electric armour uses very very high voltage differentials between inner and outer armour so when a penetrator comes in through the outer plate and touches the inner plate an enormous voltage would obliterate the penetrator... more effective against a HEAT warhead as in its plasma state would act like a metal no matter what its composition.

    Plasma polymers would be super plastic armour... which would be rather strong and light and easy to fix.

    Graphene is immensely strong and would make a good armour material in conjunction with other materials.

    -APS will be very advanced, multi-shot, with automatic reloading.

    Interesting that it is autoloading...

    -Electrical transmission

    Interesting... using a step motor instead of gearing you effectively have infinite gear options... makes a diferential redundant too.

    -Claims crew in the next 5-6 years will be cut down to 2- FOR SURE.

    they have been talking about this for a while, though it might have a crew of 3 but the third person is resting, so 8 hour shifts staggered so one is resting and two are operational to allow 24/7 operation. With auto tracking the role of the gunner could be largely automated...

    Previously the commander directed the driver and the gunner with his position in the top of the tank with the best view. In these new vehicles all three crew will get the advantage of the virtual view of the battlefield so the driver can make more decisions and find his own best route from place to place.



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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  k@llashniKoff on Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:19 pm

    from otvaga:




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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Acheron on Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    -traditional  ERA has become outdated in terms of potential

    rendered obsolete with NERA...

    Not true, the general principle of NERA is as old as that of ERA (~early to late 60s for both of them). Sandwiching rubber between armoured steel plates has been in use since the T-64 first rolled out. Also, I am pretty sure that T-80 had a similar NERA arrangement from the very start. Sandwiching rubber b/w steel creates an outward motion of rubber when a cumulative jet first penetrates a steel plate into the rubber underneath. This counter "jet" effectively disrupts the cumulative one, decreasing its potential penetrating power.

    Anyway, ERA is never going to be obsolete until someone successfully demonstrates a pure NERA that is capable of stopping 125 mm tungsten/du APFSDS rounds travelling at 1.5 km/s. Until that day, I am afraid Kontakt-5/Relikt/Nozh ERAs are the only proven ERA designs to achieve such. The general problem with NERA is that although it has better multi-hit capability, is cheaper, less dangerous due to lack of highly explosive elements, and less bulky, it always has lesser effective stopping power versus chemical warheads than ERA of the same weight. Also, the potential of pure NERA against kinetic penetrators is, politely speaking, underwhelming. Counter moving armour plates that induce yaw and/or shear the kinetic penetrator (Kontakt-5), or shearing the kinetic penetrator via cumulative "knives" (Nozh) is much more effective than whatever NERA can offer.

    However, I am pretty sure that an effective combination of ERA/NERA which is more effective than either on its own does exist.




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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:51 pm

    Acheron wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    -traditional  ERA has become outdated in terms of potential

    rendered obsolete with NERA...

    Not true, the general principle of NERA is as old as that of ERA (~early to late 60s for both of them). Sandwiching rubber between armoured steel plates has been in use since the T-64 first rolled out. Also, I am pretty sure that T-80 had a similar NERA arrangement from the very start. Sandwiching rubber b/w steel creates an outward motion of rubber when a cumulative jet first penetrates a steel plate into the rubber underneath. This counter "jet" effectively disrupts the cumulative one, decreasing its potential penetrating power.

    Anyway, ERA is never going to be obsolete until someone successfully demonstrates a pure NERA that is capable of stopping 125 mm tungsten/du APFSDS rounds travelling at 1.5 km/s. Until that day, I am afraid Kontakt-5/Relikt/Nozh ERAs are the only proven ERA designs to achieve such. The general problem with NERA is that although it has better multi-hit capability, is cheaper, less dangerous due to lack of highly explosive elements, and less bulky, it always has lesser effective stopping power versus chemical warheads than ERA of the same weight. Also, the potential of pure NERA against kinetic penetrators is, politely speaking, underwhelming. Counter moving armour plates that induce yaw and/or shear the kinetic penetrator (Kontakt-5), or shearing the kinetic penetrator via cumulative "knives" (Nozh) is much more effective than whatever NERA can offer.

    However, I am pretty sure that an effective combination of ERA/NERA which is more effective than either on its own does exist.

    Exactly, untill someone renders ERA ineffective with Rail guns so the explosion from ERA can not be faster than the projectile untill then ERA is the only type of armor that is the most effecient, yes even more effecient than the main armor (Side and top). What we will see is NERA used as standoff detonator armor before the main armor and ERA tiles mounted on NERA, since there is a big problem for main armor, it may be thick enough to withstand most capable AT weapons but the weapons will still perforate the main armor and it will be expensive to repair that, so it is much more effecient to just mount a new ERA tile on it instead of shipping entire tank back for repairs.

    ERA right now is the king against any AT weapons, low weight, slim and the highest effeciency against CE and KE.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Mefesto on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:33 pm


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:37 pm

    Seems like they finally equipped the turret with ERA/NERA tiles. I already hoped that the turret shape would be similiar to the Obyekt 640 Black Eagle and advertized turret shape of Armata. Looks good. Very Happy

    I just really hope it gets Red Eyes Shtora like T-90A, not that it is that great for todays weapons but still has its use and certainly terryfing looks.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Viktor on Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:26 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    "Armata" received equipment for network-centric warfare

    MOSCOW, April 27. / TASS /. Specialists Joint instrument-making corporation (DIC, is a "Rostec") equipped with the latest Russian armored vehicles, including tanks on the platform "Armata" software and hardware complex for conducting network-centric warfare.

    He said that the new equipment were also infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers on the basis of "Kurganets-25" armored personnel carrier "Boomerang" and the armored car "Typhoon".

    Software and hardware complex development concern "Constellation" makes fighting machine part of a network structure, which integrate drones, electronic warfare equipment, reconnaissance, targeting, fire damage. "Modern methods of data visualization, and a high level of automation greatly simplifies the process of decision making in combat conditions. The transfer target coordinates of the means of destruction takes less than a minute after the detection of the enemy," - said the representative of the defense industry

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