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    [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

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    kvs
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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  kvs on Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:43 pm

    Thermobaric shells are not practical. There is a reason why thermobaric bombs are huge. The concept is to detonate a fuel aerosol in air. You
    need a lot of fuel to create the aerosol. There are physical constraints and you can't simply replace the fuel with some high explosive variant
    that can be packed more tightly and made to fit in a tank shell.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:36 pm

    kvs wrote:Thermobaric shells are not practical.   There is a reason why thermobaric bombs are huge.  The concept is to detonate a fuel aerosol in air.  You
    need a lot of fuel to create the aerosol.   There are physical constraints and you can't simply replace the fuel with some high explosive variant
    that can be packed more tightly and made to fit in a tank shell.
    Then how is it done on the even tinier shmel and metis-M1 warheads?

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:03 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    kvs wrote:Thermobaric shells are not practical.   There is a reason why thermobaric bombs are huge.  The concept is to detonate a fuel aerosol in air.  You
    need a lot of fuel to create the aerosol.   There are physical constraints and you can't simply replace the fuel with some high explosive variant
    that can be packed more tightly and made to fit in a tank shell.
    Then how is it done on the even tinier shmel and metis-M1 warheads?

    He's referring to thermobaric shells against armor, you would need fairly large and heavy thermobaric weapon to do some seriously damage to any MBT...now compare that to HEAT warheads, where the Kornet's 152mm 10kg warhead against any MBT armor would be best described as a grown man jumping on top of a well shaken can of soda!

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:32 am

    i think Mindstorm explained pretty well(as usual) that modern MBTs(at least latest soviet/russian ones) are very resistant to blast damage.
    If you close down everything and apply NBC overpressure the crew should only be pretty well shell shocked- bruises and concussions but nothing life threatening.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:47 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    kvs wrote:Thermobaric shells are not practical.   There is a reason why thermobaric bombs are huge.  The concept is to detonate a fuel aerosol in air.  You
    need a lot of fuel to create the aerosol.   There are physical constraints and you can't simply replace the fuel with some high explosive variant
    that can be packed more tightly and made to fit in a tank shell.
    Then how is it done on the even tinier shmel and metis-M1 warheads?

    He's referring to thermobaric shells against armor, you would need fairly large and heavy thermobaric weapon to do some seriously damage to any MBT...now compare that to HEAT warheads, where the Kornet's 152mm 10kg warhead against any MBT armor would be best described as a grown man jumping on top of a well shaken can of soda!

    I think you misunderstood what i was saying.

    My solution against new modern APS systems that can intercept HEAT,APFSDS and ATGM to speeds of 1800m/s, meaning all of those systems would be highly uneffective against an highly capable and effective APS equipped tank. The solution based on asumption of course, would be a 125mm Thermobaric warhead that does not aim to kill crew, but to destroy APS, cannon, optics and maybe do damage to ERA tile fixing points and displace them.

    In case of APS interception against a thermobaric warhead it will not "intercept" it and prevent it from doing its work, but blow it off.
    The question at this point would be how effective a comprimized aerosol is, or what kind of APS grenade/shotgun is used and if that is enough to "set-off" the thermobaric filler before it becomes an aerosol. The principe of thermobaric weapons is that the explosive part needs the oxygen from the air to become an aerosol to be reactionary with fire (ignition), meaning even if it is "set off" by APS it should expand before actually igniting and exploding with a massive shockwave.

    Since a modern highly capable APS is not easily touched by APFSDS/HEAT/ATGM and even top-attack weapons, so what should be the cheapest and easiest solution to counter such an APS without firing hundreds of rounds untill he runs out of countermeasures. That is obviously speculation from my part but i think Thermobaric weapons should deal some damage to destroy the one or the other part to overcome the APS or to comprimize offensive capabilities of the tank, via destruction of optics or damage to cannon.
    I've seen somewhere on the net a picture of a tank's cannon ripped off from a simple RPG-7 warhead which exploded very close to it, since the cannon is not armor but rather simple steel with far lower tolerance of force that is not symetrical from cannon designated use, it should fairly easily be damaged to make it inoperable.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:10 am

    In regards to the ability of knocking out a tanks APS radar, it may work for one vehicle, but if it's integrated in to a BMS than it'll be sharing data with other vehicles with radar making it a moot point. As far as asymmetrical warfare goes, it'll probably evolve away from ATGM units at some point and transforms in to remote operators of cheap helicopter drones, with TV guidance, and wired to EFP's, and the operators could launch the helicopter drones remotely and stealthily off the top of building rooftops. That level of asymmetrical warfare has the potential to be devastating!!!

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:42 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:In regards to the ability of knocking out a tanks APS radar, it may work for one vehicle, but if it's integrated in to a BMS than it'll be sharing data with other vehicles with radar making it a moot point. As far as asymmetrical warfare goes, it'll probably evolve away from ATGM units at some point and transforms in to remote operators of cheap helicopter drones, with TV guidance, and wired to EFP's, and the operators could launch the helicopter drones remotely and stealthily off the top of building rooftops. That level of asymmetrical warfare has the potential to be devastating!!!
    not only that- you lose a potentially lethal first shot and just gave away your position. If any targeting channel is still operational the target can still fight back. imo the preempt burst of decoy rounds from 20/30mm coax cannon before a few tenths of a second later apfsds is much better solution. the thermobaric is still great for some applications particularly in the anti-helicopter dept. - even mighty mi-28 would get blown to the ground by the blast from a 125mm thermobaric shell detonating closeby

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:42 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:In regards to the ability of knocking out a tanks APS radar, it may work for one vehicle, but if it's integrated in to a BMS than it'll be sharing data with other vehicles with radar making it a moot point. As far as asymmetrical warfare goes, it'll probably evolve away from ATGM units at some point and transforms in to remote operators of cheap helicopter drones, with TV guidance, and wired to EFP's, and the operators could launch the helicopter drones remotely and stealthily off the top of building rooftops. That level of asymmetrical warfare has the potential to be devastating!!!
    not only that- you lose a potentially lethal first shot and just gave away your position. If any targeting channel is still operational the target can still fight back. imo the preempt burst of decoy rounds from 20/30mm coax cannon before a few tenths of a second later apfsds is much better solution. the thermobaric is still great for some applications particularly in the anti-helicopter dept. - even mighty mi-28 would get blown to the ground by the blast from a 125mm thermobaric shell detonating closeby

    To make direct conclusion we would need to test thermobaric weapons against tanks and see what damage they do to optics, cannon and APS and for the part that Thermobaric weapons used as Anti-aircraft weapon, they are not favorable because the shockwave is rather small in comperision with a HEF were fragments can fly several dozen meters and still make damage, where the Thermobaric warhead needs remote detonation at maximum of 10 m not counting in the split second delay after aerosol has formed itself.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:51 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:In regards to the ability of knocking out a tanks APS radar, it may work for one vehicle, but if it's integrated in to a BMS than it'll be sharing data with other vehicles with radar making it a moot point. As far as asymmetrical warfare goes, it'll probably evolve away from ATGM units at some point and transforms in to remote operators of cheap helicopter drones, with TV guidance, and wired to EFP's, and the operators could launch the helicopter drones remotely and stealthily off the top of building rooftops. That level of asymmetrical warfare has the potential to be devastating!!!
    not only that- you lose a potentially lethal first shot and just gave away your position. If any targeting channel is still operational the target can still fight back. imo the preempt burst of decoy rounds from 20/30mm coax cannon before a few tenths of a second later apfsds is much better solution. the thermobaric is still great for some applications particularly in the anti-helicopter dept. - even mighty mi-28 would get blown to the ground by the blast from a 125mm thermobaric shell detonating closeby

    In all practical applications a thermobaric warhead would prove to be far less effective against helicopters than a HE-Frag shell with ANIET fuzing, which is already widely deployed in active service.

    The best weapon against APS would be moment of surprise and stealth, the best and most cost effective solution would be cheap helicopter drones with TV guidance and directly linked to EFP's. A small drone with some ram coating would show up very small on a X-band AESA radar of a APS system, combined with the effect that the slow rate of flying speed would further disguise itself with birds, maybe even strap sythetic bird wings for further disguise.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:58 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    To make direct conclusion we would need to test thermobaric weapons against tanks and see what damage they do to optics, cannon and APS and for the part that Thermobaric weapons used as Anti-aircraft weapon, they are not favorable because the shockwave is rather small in comperision with a HEF were fragments can fly several dozen meters and still make damage, where the Thermobaric warhead needs remote detonation at maximum of 10 m not counting in the split second delay after aerosol has formed itself.
    true- i also forgot that thermobarics have delay when initial fuel cloud is ignited- a helos fan would blow quite a lot of the mixture away.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:05 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    The best weapon against APS would be moment of surprise and stealth,
    funny how this mirrors overcoming ships defences now, Cool
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    the best and most cost effective solution would be cheap helicopter drones with TV guidance and directly linked to EFP's. A small drone with some ram coating would show up very small on a X-band AESA radar of a APS system, combined with the effect that the slow rate of flying speed would further disguise itself with birds, maybe even strap sythetic bird wings for further disguise.
    for anti-tank teams- but for MBTs i think 23mm decoy round burst followed very shortly by apfsds would be adequate and cheap.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:02 pm


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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Regular on Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:06 pm

    Someone just crushed merkava Wink Can't wait to see the real deal.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:19 am

    Regular wrote:Someone just crushed merkava Wink Can't wait to see the real deal.

    Crushed Merkava? As in recently? Pretty sure Merkava was crushed back in 2006 in Cedars country. Wink

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:37 am

    George1 wrote:

    If this comes rolling down the streets on May 9th... the tears of russian military detractors, I can taste them.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  AbsoluteZero on Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:47 am

    If this comes rolling down the streets on May 9th... the tears of russian military detractors, I can taste them.

    I think the anti russian trolls will always find a way to downplay this development though, like they'll say it wont be built in meaningful numbers, its weak, and the likes, I've seen them do it alot on mp lol

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:58 am

    AbsoluteZero wrote:
    If this comes rolling down the streets on May 9th... the tears of russian military detractors, I can taste them.

    I think the anti russian trolls will always find a way to downplay this development though, like they'll say it wont be built in meaningful numbers, its weak, and the likes, I've seen them do it alot on mp lol

    They will complain until the west catches up and copies Armata, then they will sing from the highest mountain about autoloaders and indestructible crew capsules. Laughing

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:52 am

    Zivo wrote:
    AbsoluteZero wrote:
    If this comes rolling down the streets on May 9th... the tears of russian military detractors, I can taste them.

    I think the anti russian trolls will always find a way to downplay this development though, like they'll say it wont be built in meaningful numbers, its weak, and the likes, I've seen them do it alot on mp lol

    They will complain until the west catches up and copies Armata, then they will sing from the highest mountain about autoloaders and indestructible crew capsules. Laughing

    You got to love how they live in denial. So many armor concepts and developements were created by the Russian's first! Composite armor, ERA, autoloaders, GLATGM's, APS, PPS...even the concept of remotely controlled drone ground vehicle was first used in the Winter War against Finland (the Soviets field tested a radio-command controlled tank in that war). With the coming of the MBT on the Armata platform we'll see a completely isolated crew, an external gun with greater levels of elevation and depression, a completely modular MBT that's bits and bob's it'll later receive will prove how versatile it is as a MBT.

    Probably the most interesting aspect is the APS system attached to Armata. 'Afghanistan' is the name but it'll be using the PAK-FA's X-Band AESA radar...but what does that truly entail? Would the radar retain the 400 km range? If so then would that mean that various Armata vehicles in service would be a bona fide piece of Russia's IAD puzzle? 2000+ Armata's with 400 km range X-band AESA radar would provide excellent additional radar coverage (especially for low flying objects) for the Russian territory if I believe what it is to be true. 'Afghanistan' is Armata's APS, but what would stop them from going further? What if there was additional room for a modular Morfey missile attachment to be placed in the hull? Combined with the 400 km X-Band AESA, the Armata platform could potentially come standard with SHORAD capabilities, only time will tell if that turns out to be true.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  Zivo on Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:12 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Zivo wrote:
    AbsoluteZero wrote:
    If this comes rolling down the streets on May 9th... the tears of russian military detractors, I can taste them.

    I think the anti russian trolls will always find a way to downplay this development though, like they'll say it wont be built in meaningful numbers, its weak, and the likes, I've seen them do it alot on mp lol

    They will complain until the west catches up and copies Armata, then they will sing from the highest mountain about autoloaders and indestructible crew capsules. Laughing

    Probably the most interesting aspect is the APS system attached to Armata. 'Afghanistan' is the name but it'll be using the PAK-FA's X-Band AESA radar...but what does that truly entail? Would the radar retain the 400 km range? If so then would that mean that various Armata vehicles in service would be a bona fide piece of Russia's IAD puzzle? 2000+ Armata's with 400 km range X-band AESA radar would provide excellent additional radar coverage (especially for low flying objects) for the Russian territory if I believe what it is to be true. 'Afghanistan' is Armata's APS, but what would stop them from going further? What if there was additional room for a modular Morfey missile attachment to be placed in the hull? Combined with the 400 km X-Band AESA, the Armata platform could potentially come standard with SHORAD capabilities, only time will tell if that turns out to be true.

    They're not going to slap the PAK FA's radar on armata and call it a day, lol.

    Armata will have small AESA units. Besides being a primary element of the APS, the radar will act as Armata's ears, "listening" for infantry movement, and pointing the gun were it "heard" the enemy shooting from.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:36 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    kvs wrote:Thermobaric shells are not practical.   There is a reason why thermobaric bombs are huge.  The concept is to detonate a fuel aerosol in air.  You
    need a lot of fuel to create the aerosol.   There are physical constraints and you can't simply replace the fuel with some high explosive variant
    that can be packed more tightly and made to fit in a tank shell.
    Then how is it done on the even tinier shmel and metis-M1 warheads?

    He's referring to thermobaric shells against armor, you would need fairly large and heavy thermobaric weapon to do some seriously damage to any MBT...now compare that to HEAT warheads, where the Kornet's 152mm 10kg warhead against any MBT armor would be best described as a grown man jumping on top of a well shaken can of soda!
    No you just automatically assume that. In fact I was refering to use against soft targets and against structures, and thermobaric blasts are far superior against them than HE of equal size ,I thought you got the context.

    Or what you thought I'm some HESH fetishist?

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:49 am

    Zivo wrote:
    They're not going to slap the PAK FA's radar on armata and call it a day, lol.

    Armata will have small AESA units. Besides being a primary element of the APS, the radar will act as Armata's ears, "listening" for infantry movement, and pointing the gun were it "heard" the enemy shooting from.
    more importantly it would impart true all weather fighting capability- against MBTs with only thermals any ensuing battle in adverse weather conditions like rain, snowstorm, sandstorm and critter storms(frogs and fishes raining Razz ) would be wholly in favor of the Armata.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:32 am

    Think of APS is a mini anti-air system and anti-tank weapons are mini bombs or mini suicide UAV... then I guess we can figure a way to deal with the issues.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  collegeboy16 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:42 am

    Zivo wrote:

    They will complain until the west catches up and copies Armata, then they will sing from the highest mountain about autoloaders and indestructible crew capsules. Laughing

    by that time they are introducing armata influenced vehicles the russians would be introducing ETC gun, and other next gen tech. i particularly mentioned ETC gun because i can imagine them complaining as they did when smoothbore gun was introduced. they would say it would be too dangerous, would blow up the tank if they fire it yadda, yadda.

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  AbsoluteZero on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:00 pm

    Russia's Armata Battle Tank to Go Through State Trials in 2016

    So i guess they'll be showing it on Victory day 2015 before state trials?

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    Re: [Official] Armata Discussion thread #2

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:16 pm

    AbsoluteZero wrote:Russia's Armata Battle Tank to Go Through State Trials in 2016

    So i guess they'll be showing it on Victory day 2015 before state trials?

    Remember the T-95 was completed and supposedly passed state trials before it was cancelled, the MBT Armata takes many things from the T-95, meaning their's less trial and error and MOD and the ground forces understand what to expect.

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