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    Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

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    Mr.Kalishnikov47
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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:03 pm

    Ship bound for Syria was carrying 3 old helicopters repaired in Russia - Lavrov



    Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has confirmed in an exclusive interview to RT that a Russian ship bound for Syria was not carrying anything but 3 Syrian helicopters that had been repaired in Russia.

    RT: The Western media this week has been frenzied about Russia sending warships and helicopters to Syria. How do you react to that?

    Sergey Lavrov: It was part of a campaign and not a very decent campaign, I would say.

    We are sending no battleships to Syria. We have been saying publicly that we have been implementing contracts under which we have to supply arms to Syria. Those armaments are entirely defensive and they mostly consist of air defense systems, which cannot be used against the population and can only be used to respond to outside aggression.

    The ship which is being discussed these days was indeed carrying air defense systems. It was carrying three helicopters which had been repaired in Russia under contracts signed in 2008. Those are Soviet helicopters. They have been in Syria from Soviet days. In 2008 there was a contract to repair them.

    They are still to be assembled after delivery. The entire process will take no less than three months.

    So to speak about something we have just sold to Syria and which is being used in action is not true at all.

    But this story has another twist with the British insurance company, which decided to withdraw insurance from this particular ship. This is a testimony that the insurance system of Great Britain is not reliable, because they were citing sanctions imposed on Syria unilaterally by the EU.

    This means that anyone – any country or any company – who is not violating any international rules, who is not violating any UN Security Council resolutions might be subject to extra-territorial application of somebody else’s unilateral sanctions. This is a very slippery slope.

    I do believe we have to discuss the issue of unilateral sanctions in a systematic manner: what they mean and what can be done to make those who faithfully implement international law, including UNSC resolutions, not be subject to application of somebody else’s rules.

    Bad examples are contagious. It was until recently the US which was resorting to unilateral sanctions to punish countries every now and then, including sanctions with extra-territorial application. Now unfortunately the EU is taking the cue, beginning to use sanctions in a unilateral manner more and more against Syria, but also against some other cases.

    This is a trend which is counter-productive. In principle dealing with any international issue you need to include partners with whom you have difficulties, not isolate them. Isolation never works.

    RT: We are hearing reports of a clemency for President Assad from the West if he steps down, some kind of immunity, how would Russia react to that?

    SL: I would just repeat what I said:it's for the Syrian people to decide who should rule them, how they should live. The main thing for the external players is to ensure that they all sit down at the negotiating table to discuss their future, where the minority and the majority will feel safe and included into the political system, otherwise the groups that now support president Assad, and there are quite a number who do so, would be in the opposition to the ruling majority and the war and violence would continue, but the positions of the participants would be shifted. This is something that might happen if people insist on one-sided approaches to the crisis and on imposing something on the Syrians.

    RT: British Prime Minister David Cameron says that in Los Cabos at the G20 meeting President Vladimir Putin shifted his view on the situation in Syria. Is that true?

    SL: It is not true.

    The meetings with UK PM David Cameron and US President Barack Obama did discuss Syria. Both our partners said President Bashar Al-Assad must go and external players must develop a transition plan for the Syrians to agree. We expressed our position that we cannot accept a policy which would aim at changing regimes from the outside. This has been our position all along. We also cannot prejudge for the Syrians what the outcome of the political dialogue would be. We strongly support a political dialogue and efforts to stop the violence. We suggest for this purpose that all external players should lean on the Syrian party on which they have influence and thus persuade them to withdraw from cities – both the government and opposition – to sit down and have a dialogue. But there should be no prejudging from outside what the substance and result of this dialogue might be. It’s for the Syrians to decide.

    I have seen the statement made by PM Cameron that President Putin shifted his position after meetings in Los Cabos. It is not true at all. President Putin was asked in Los Cabos himself at his press conference about his position on Syria. He expressed it exactly the way he did with David Cameron and Barack Obama.

    http://www.rt.com/news/lavrov-syria-exclusive-394/

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:28 pm

    Revealed: CIA secretly operates on Syrian border, supplies arms to rebels

    American secret service operatives are distributing illegal assault rifles, anti-tank rocket launchers and other ammunition to Syrian opposition, the New York Times reports. But due to some rebels’ links to Al Qaeda, the CIA’s task is precarious.

    ­The paper reports that for weeks now, officers based in southeast Turkey have supervised the flow of illegal arms to numerous opposition factions ready to fight the regime of President Bashar Assad. The only problem is some of the rebel groups have links with terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda, so the CIA mission must be careful not to arm proven terrorists by mistake.

    Arms and ammunition are being brought into Syria mainly over the Turkish border with the help of Syria’s Muslim Brotherhood network and other groups, the report says. Expenses are being shared by Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

    The NYT source, an unnamed Arab intelligence official, revealed that American officers are also collecting information on Syrian opposition groups and recruiting informants among their ranks. The source said the Obama administration is considering sharing its intelligence data, such as satellite images and detailed information on the location and maneuvers of Syrian troops.

    According to the source, CIA operatives might be helping the rebels with organizing a rudimentary intelligence organization. The CIA agents have reportedly not set foot on Syrian soil, however.

    While, it seems, supplying Syrian opposition with arms, the US would like to see Syria’s allies, Russia in the first place, stop supplying weapons to the regime of President Bashar Assad. Washington has expressed concern with Russia performing maintenance of Syrian Mi-25 assault helicopters.

    Moscow has consistently denied supplying to Damascus any types of assault weapons that can be used against armed rebels. Russia’s Foreign Ministry says the country has only supplied Syria with defensive capabilities such as anti-air missile systems.

    Russia is not violating any international sanctions against Syria, and Moscow has declared it will not cease military cooperation with Damascus.

    Prior to the report about CIA officers operating on the Turkish-Syrian border, the Obama administration’s declared policy on the conflict in Syria centered on diplomacy and humanitarian aid. The State Department has reportedly allocated $15 million in medical supplies and communication equipment for armed opposition groups in Syria.

    In the meantime it seems the Pentagon is considering various options for interference in the Syrian conflict, including establishing no-fly zones over the country, as was done in Libya a year ago.

    American and Israeli generals are also concerned with securing alleged stockpiles of Syrian chemical weapons, the very existence of which has never been proven.

    http://www.rt.com/news/cia-officers-turkey-syria-378/
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________


    Now this is funny. US and UK going crazy over a few helicopters while at the same time supplying weapons to the rebels.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:33 am

    Now this is funny. US and UK going crazy over a few helicopters while at the same time supplying weapons to the rebels.

    More importantly getting their panties in a bunch because the Russians are RETURNING Syrian helicopters that aren't being used so far, while the west supplies the rebels with small arms that are killing people every day in Syria.

    Some things about the west I like... equal rights etc etc, but integrity and practising what you preach and not judging others by your own values just make me hate them... us.


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:16 pm

    US is already buying 10 Be-200s and helicopters to placate us for Afghanistan. This move could hamper the ship reaching Syria since it won't be able to replenish in any EU port. Arrangements can be made for at-sea refueling but it is a major hassle finding someone that isn't an EU ship.

    I was watching hours worth of Syria fighting last night... so much burning armour, especially tanks. There seems to be an endless supply of RPGs and even Metis ATGMs. The IEDs are slaughtering them.


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:54 pm

    The Be-200 deal is pretty unlikely.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/268388.html

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:40 pm

    Russian Arms Ship Offloads Syria Helicopters

    A Russian cargo ship carrying a batch of Mi-25 attack helicopters and air defense systems for Syria has offloaded the aircraft in the Russian port of Baltiysk in the Kaliningrad region, a security source said on Friday.

    "The ship has unloaded," the source said. "These helicopters are now on the shore. A decision from Rosoboronexport on what to do with them is expected shortly."

    The helicopters, which were originally overhauled at the 150th aircraft repair plant in Russia's exclave of Kaliningrad, have been at the center of a diplomatic row between Russia and the West.

    U.S Secretary of State Hillary Clinton accused Russia in June of supplying helicopter gunships to Damascus which could be used to massacre civilian demonstrators in the ongoing insurrection in the country. Russia said it was fulfilling a contract previously signed long ago for repair of the aircraft and denied they could be used for attacking civilians.

    Femco, the shipping agent which owns the ship, the Alaed, previously said the documentation accompanying the cargo did not contain any data linking it to Syria.

    The Alaed originally set sail from Baltiysk in June, allegedly carrying three Mi-25s and some air defense equipment. The ship turned back to Russia later that month, after its insurance cover was suspended by its British insurer, Standard Club. It later turned back and entered the port of Murmansk, and was later re-flagged as a Russian registered vessel.

    The U.S. Congress voted to break off all contacts with Russia's state arms corporation Rosoboronexport on Thursday over concerns about Russia continuing to supply arms to Syria. Russia has maintained it is only fulfilling contracts signed before the current wave of unrest in Syria, and said last week it will not supply a batch of Yak-130 advanced jet trainers to Damascus.

    http://en.rian.ru/russia/20120720/174698082.html

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:05 am

    Well if the US has already started to punish Russia for its military contracts with Syria, then it should start to punish the US for secretly supplying arms to the terrorists in Syria and supporting an insurrection.


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:19 am

    GarryB wrote:Well if the US has already started to punish Russia for its military contracts with Syria, then it should start to punish the US for secretly supplying arms to the terrorists in Syria and supporting an insurrection.

    More info :

    The Russian arms ship at the center of a diplomatic row between Russia and the West is loading up with a new unknown cargo at the St. Petersburg port, according to a bulletin posted on the port’s website on Tuesday.

    The Alaed docked at St. Petersburg on Friday after offloading Mi-25 helicopters in the Russian port of Baltiysk in the Kaliningrad region

    There has been no word from the ship’s owner, Femco, about the nature of the new cargo.

    Femco previously said the documentation accompanying the cargo did not contain any data linking it to Syria.

    The Alaed originally set sail from Baltiysk in June, reportedly carrying three Mi-25s and some air defense systems. The ship turned back to Russia later that month, after its insurance cover was suspended by its British insurer, Standard Club. It later turned back and entered the port of Murmansk, and was later re-flagged as a Russian registered vessel.

    A Defense Ministry spokesman said on Tuesday warships from Russia’s Baltic and Northern Fleets have passed through the Strait of Gibraltar and entered the Mediterranean, where they will team up with Black Sea Fleet ships for an exercise.

    According to some media reports, in the course of the exercise they may call at the Syrian port of Tartus.

    Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, deputy head of Russia's military technical cooperation agency, said recently Russian warships will be sent to defend Russian merchant shipping in the event of a blockade due to the situation in Syria.

    The U.S. Congress voted to break off all contacts with Russia's state arms corporation Rosoboronexport on Thursday over concerns about Russia continuing to supply arms to Syria. Russia has maintained it is only fulfilling contracts signed before the current wave of unrest in Syria, and said last week it will not supply a batch of Yak-130 advanced jet trainers to Damascus.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120724/174757466.html

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    Iskander delivered to Syria

    Post  SOC on Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:18 am

    Russia has delivered the Iskander to Syria in response to NATO plans for Patriots in Turkey:

    http://www.wnd.com/2012/12/russia-arms-syria-with-powerful-ballistic-missiles/

    http://www.worldtribune.com/2011/12/21/russia-sent-advanced-rockets-to-syria-due-to-threats-from-turkey/

    The second one has an interesting line at the end:

    “There will be strict supervision over the latest weapons sent by Russia to make sure they are not used to begin a regional conflict,” the source said.

    Does that mean that they aren't going to be used to shoot at Israel just because, well, Israel? Or that they won't be targeting rebels/insurgents, as that's what the West is falling all over itself about and considering action over (i.e. shooting them in the conflict could finally get the West involved, ergo they'd be used to begin a regional conflict)?

    Seems to me much ado about nothing on all sides. Turkey wants NATO SAM/ATBM protection, big deal. They were in the market for a strategic SAM anyway, so had this occurred, say, two years from now, Turkey would have its own SAM systems to deploy. Besides, if it's PAC-3 systems that deploy, to have the greater ATBM capability, the engagement range isn't really that impressive against aircraft. The Buk-M2E is in the same neighborhood in terms of range. Is this an example of butthurt over the forthcoming SAM decision?

    Maybe this is a very sly marketing job. Send the weapons to Syria, let them show how accurate they are in combat, and get more export orders.

    Or, maybe this actually stabilzies the situation somewhat. Being able to shoot these highly accurate weapons at rebels/insurgents (and actually make headway in defeating them) rather than the hilariously useless SCUD or its DPRK knockoffs would significantly reduce collateral damage and perhaps alleviate the need to break out the WMD warheads since, you know, the SRBM force as previously constituted couldn't be counted on to hit anything except a huge city. Which is, of course, what you once again get by relying on comparatively ancient technology for too long. At least Syria seems to be learning the technological lessons demonstrated since 1991. Can't really say the same about Iran or the DPRK!

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Viktor on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:03 am

    This info could be true but I would still wait for more official confirmation.

    Western newspapers are for to long trying to

    1. Distort the truth by all means and ways possible
    2. Portray Assad as lunatic
    3. Portray as terrorist are wining by reporting only their stories and successes but none of Syrian Army
    4. Showing that in all that mess hyping insignificant situation throw out all media all is doomed and Assad will have to resort to chemical
    weapons
    5. Portray Putin as a sole (interesting how China is not mentioned but equal supports Syria) supporter of "terrorist" Assad who has nothing
    on his mind but to kill his own civilians with WMD Very Happy and other he could think of
    6. And because Assad has no other option to stay on power (disregard the democratic elections 70% + people voted and REAL oposition exists)
    as free Syrian protesters and unarmed are gaining ground will have to resort to using WMD responsibility of the World is to stop that
    lunatic maniac by bombing etc.

    No matter what numerous "western" stories about situation in Syria where proven to be staged events and obvious lies to its readers no one seems to give a f....
    Specially is interested that right after each and every one of the "Frends" of Syria meting takes place some Russian official words are being misunderstand and media hype goes on its rampage around the world with Russians trying to be heard.
    Right before "Frends" of Syria takes place terrorist offenses begin, bomb trucks activate its deadly cargo etc on a much larger scale than on average ...

    Well Im offtopic now and Im not ...

    Syria has placed orders on Iskander / S-300 (five batteries) / MIG-31E / MIG-29M2 and other heavy weapons none of which will be delivered

    before situation gets clearer. Iskander missiles along with S-300 is said by Russia will NOT be delivered long before conflict started and was not delivered.

    As far Im I aware no S-300 (except for search radar 36D6) has managed to find its way to Syria much less Iskander, MIG-31E althrow there where all these years newspaper articles coming from Israel papers about Russia delivering S-300 divisions and regiments etc etc ...

    On the other hand It could be that Russia got irked by Patriot deployment or some other thing and delivered Iskander but up until now Russia has only and always showed policy of piece and respect for Syrian people and its need to be heard. I dont think Russia will all the sudden completely abandon its way and practice weapon delivery policy.


    Last edited by Viktor on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:07 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:06 am

    I find the reports to be highly unlikely.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:25 am

    TR1 wrote:I find the reports to be highly unlikely.
    Yeah my ass Russia is going to risk its Iskanders falling into NATO hands and its crews beheaded by some Allah-Akbarians.

    Besides which, Russia has not shown any sort of hostility towards Turkey or Israel for the duration of this entire crisis - why would it suddenly want to bring Iskanders into Syria in order to threaten them? It's got ICBMs for that anyway.

    SOC wrote:Or, maybe this actually stabilzies the situation somewhat. Being able to shoot these highly accurate weapons at rebels/insurgents (and actually make headway in defeating them) rather than the hilariously useless SCUD or its DPRK knockoffs would significantly reduce collateral damage and perhaps alleviate the need to break out the WMD warheads since, you know, the SRBM force as previously constituted couldn't be counted on to hit anything except a huge city. Which is, of course, what you once again get by relying on comparatively ancient technology for too long. At least Syria seems to be learning the technological lessons demonstrated since 1991. Can't really say the same about Iran or the DPRK!

    Ultimately, Iskanders used in this way won't make an impact in the final result - all that Russia will end up with is wasting extremely expensive missiles on some irregular infantry, with NATO Radar sites and instruments close-by in order to track the trajectories and patterns.

    If Russia wanted to kill insurgents from afar, it could base Uragans/Smerches or Tochka-Us in Syria's defended coastal-regions, or employ its naval task force with its cruise missiles and the Admiral Kuznetsov airwing. All far more viable approaches.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Pyrrus on Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:33 pm

    I've heard about plans to deliver these rockets not a fact of delivery. Once asked why they don't provide Arabic countries with the newest weapons Russians responded: they are not able to use older ones properly, what's the reason to send them even more sophisticated weapons?
    If this statement is true or not judge on your own. I recon these rockets are still in Russia. That's it.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  SOC on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:40 am

    Pyrrus wrote:they are not able to use older ones properly, what's the reason to send them even more sophisticated weapons?

    Except Syria has already taken delivery of the Bastion system armed with Yakhont, arguably far more advanced than any of the Soviet or DPRK SCUDs. Granted, two different types of systems, but one is clearly far more advanced than the other from a technological standpoint.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:47 am

    I wonder about the performance of Yakhont against Patriot batteries...


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    Another point of view: Russian Tech Fails To Protect Syria

    Post  nemrod on Thu May 16, 2013 10:40 pm

    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htada/articles/20130516.aspx

    I don't endorse this point of view, however it is usefull to understand why the Israeli raid seems to be successfull-?-, as you can see, untill now, no images, no proofs about a so-called success.

    What they did not say, the terrorists rats gangs that are in Syria for two years, are there, at first to make the mess as attrition war, secondly, as fifth column in order to provide Israel usefull informations, and sabotage operations.
    It is well known that between 5%-15% of the population suppport these filthy terrorists rats, among this hostil population you can find officers, and under officers, knowing very well the weak point of Syrian air defense.

    Moreover, a few weeks ago-before I registered in this forum-, I read that terrorists rats blew a state of the art radar station-provided by russians-, near Damascus, paving the way to Israel attacks. I don't know if this was terrorists rats themselves that destroyed this radar -there are chechens extremists too among them-, or western servives as SAS, green berets, turkish commandos, or israelis commandos. In fact the only way to disable S-300 is by commandos.

    As long as the syrian army won't exterminate these filthy terrorists rats -the same bastards that kills inoncent people in New York, Algiers, Baly, Beslan, Boudienowsk, Moscow theater, Madrid, Bagdad, Najaf, Kerbala, Tombuctu, Aden, London, etc...- Israel could quietly bomb Syria.
    Furthermore, just after the raid, immedialty the terrorists rats attacks with coordinatiion the outskirts of syrian capital, in order to penetrate in Damascus, but they were pushed back by syrian army. It proves that Israel protect these terrorists rats.

    This is my explanation about the Israelis successfull operations.
    If someone has another explanation...



    http://www.debka.com/article/22566/

    Part of israeli website Debka's article

    DEBKAfile Exclusive Report November 26, 2012, 9:05 PM

    Syrian rebels captured Marj al-Sultan military base in a resounding blow to the combat capabilities of Bashar Assad’s army against external enemies, Syrian rebels destroyed their most important electronic warning radar station facing Israel – M-1 – Monday, Nov. 26, debkafile reports exclusively from its military sources.

    This Russian-built station monitored Israeli warplanes' takeoff and landing activities at air bases in the Negev and Hatzerim in the south and tracked them up to the Syrian border. The facility was designed to guide Syrian missiles targeting any point on the Israeli map, in sync with air defense facilities south of Damascus and on the Golan Heights.

    The radar’s range also covered naval movements in Mediterranean waters off the shores of Israel and Lebanon....

    ....It has therefore crippled, though not completely dismantled, Bashar Assad’s ability to got to war against Israel, Jordan or Saudi Arabia.
    M-1 radar also swept all parts of Jordan and northern Saudi Arabia where the important Tabuk air base is situated. Deployed there in addition to the Saudi Air Force are French fighter-bombers ready to go to war against Syria.
    M-1 also relayed current data on Israeli military movements to Hizballah and would have been a vital source of intelligence in a potential Lebanese Shiites offensive against the Jewish state.

    The Syrian ruler and his spokesmen have frequently threatened since the eruption of the popular insurrection that if Assad had his back to the wall, the entire Middle East would go up in flames, especially Israel.....

    .... the Assad regime still retains two key radar stations: M-2 in Shanshar south of Homs, which covers central and northern Syria; and M-3 near Latakia which keeps an eye on the northern region up to the Turkish border and the eastern Mediterranean up to Cyprus.


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 17, 2013 1:13 am

    Not really that much of a surprise... rockets are regularly fired into Israel and kill people, so you could say uber state of the art US and Israeli tech fails to protect Israel...


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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Zivo on Fri May 17, 2013 11:15 pm

    In 2007, Israel simply circumnavigated Syrian air defense hotspots. No planes were shot down, because no planes were in range of AD assets.

    The recent attack most likely employed long range munitions launched from OUTSIDE syrian airspace. Aside from a pantsir being deployed near the target zone and intercepting the incoming round, there was nothing the Syrian army could do that wouldn't have been diplomatic suicide. Especially considering NATO will try or say almost anything to intervene to help the collapsing rebel front.

    "Russian Tech" hasn't failed to protect Syria.

    Remember, Syrian air defense is designed around total war between Israel and Syria. It concentrates assets to protect key strategic locations, and prevent Israeli's from gaining uninhibited air superiority and bombing SAA ground forces into oblivion. Nothing more, nothing less.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Regular on Tue May 21, 2013 1:59 pm

    Syrians failed to protect Syria. From thelselves. From foreign islamsits. From Israel air attack.
    There is a good Russian saying - A bad dancer blames his balls

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  nemrod on Wed May 22, 2013 10:32 pm

    Zivo wrote:In 2007, Israel simply circumnavigated Syrian air defense hotspots. No planes were shot down, because no planes were in range of AD assets.

    The recent attack most likely employed long range munitions launched from OUTSIDE syrian airspace.

    Do you mean this kind of raid is efficient ?



    Zivo wrote:
    .... there was nothing the Syrian army could do that wouldn't have been diplomatic suicide. Especially considering NATO will try or say almost anything to intervene to help the collapsing rebel front.
    I agree with you, of course Syria is caught between Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Turkey. US politics -not US Army- wished to go to war. The worst warmongers are always the most corwards, behind desks.



    Zivo wrote:
    "Russian Tech" hasn't failed to protect Syria.

    I also agree with you, I tried to explain the relative success of Israeli raids by the facts that a radar was destroyed 7 months ago, paving the way to Israel attacks. As Syria had not radar to detect intrusive aircrafts, Air defence became blind, then it is hard to guess from where the threats will come. If it come.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Zivo on Thu May 23, 2013 10:11 pm

    Do you mean this kind of raid is efficient ?

    How would you prevent it? Shoot down an Israeli aircraft in Lebanese airspace?

    The only reason these raids are "efficient" is because Israel's diplomacy is nil and the international community has failed to stop it. The Syrian government is walking on egg shells right now, they last thing they need are the terrorists to have their own air force.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  SOC on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:28 pm

    Zivo wrote:
    Do you mean this kind of raid is efficient ?

    How would you prevent it? Shoot down an Israeli aircraft in Lebanese airspace?

    Why else do you think Israel was blowing up Syrian Buk-M2Es? The whole "but they were gonna give them to Hezbollah" is a complete pack of nonsense. Just because a system can exploit a high degree of automation doesn't mean it can be crewed by untrained people from the streetcorner. Those things were going to the border where there are a ton of Kub batteries, and then they might have planned to sneak them across and make a really surprising SAM trap. Either way putting them along the border would've given them a significant boost in capability in the area, and increased their reach into Lebanese and Israeli airspace with systems that are actually credible threats.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  Zivo on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:25 pm

    Why else do you think Israel was blowing up Syrian Buk-M2Es?

    We don't know what Israel actually hit.

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    Re: Russian Military involvement and aid to Syria

    Post  SOC on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:27 pm

    Zivo wrote:
    Why else do you think Israel was blowing up Syrian Buk-M2Es?

    We don't know what Israel actually hit.

    Absolutely true. I'm just going with what they said they were blowing up and why.

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    Why do western armies fear the S-300 in Middle East

    Post  nemrod on Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:55 pm

    Here are explanations from romanian commandant about the S-300 and their efficiencies.
    Unfortunetly these interrestings informations -i did not find it this article in english, if someone finds please...- are in french language, and I give some of the great ideas.
    The S-300 was upgraded with C4I -in order to see this go here http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/c4i/- in order to defeat western ESM/ELINT.
    This technology of ESM/ELINT explain why during this last decades, western figther-bombers could easily defeat any air defence, and successfully bombed any targets, with a limited cost -this is what US propaganda claimed, untill now, we have no clues, if it is correct, or not.-.

    The S-300 is equiped with C4I equiped with modern radars with low-frequencies, the system add a new modern mobile radar 1L119-Nebo with VHF frenquency. Moreover, it is capable to track and destroy any jam sytems.

    In spite of the fact that Russia after the USSR's collapse, was far from US technology, Russia's army realized the greatest urgency to have a similar DARP agency. Russians scientists successfully found a way to stalemate US air domination by implementing it in Yougaslavia's war, where few F-117 were downed.
    However the late were caught up during Georgia's war, where russian army captured several C4I components and was later integrated in modern russian components.


    http://strategika51.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/les-missiles-s-300-russes-et-la-neutralisation-de-la-suprematie-militaire-americaine-par-valentin-vasilescu/


    In fact any attack on middle-east country implies sever blow to US-allies- aircrafts, this is why the Washington is so anxious about the S-300.
    This is why USA pressured Russia about S-300 sales to Syria, Iran, Iraq. They want to extend their empire without any losses, for finally turn back against Russia.
    But Russia understood very well the game, and it is not impossible beside Syria, and Iraq, Iran will get S-300 soon.



    Les missiles S-300 russes et la neutralisation de la suprématie militaire américaine par Valentin Vasilescu
    Pourquoi les États-Unis, Israël et l’UE ont-ils réagi si violemment au sujet de la livraison par la Russie des missiles S-300 à la Syrie? En fait, une ou plusieurs batteries de missiles anti-aériens ne peuvent rien changer quant au déroulement de la guerre civile en Syrie. Surtout avec la décision de l’UE, la Grande-Bretagne, la France et d’autres pays occidentaux membres de l’OTAN de fournir aux rebelles armés syriens des systèmes d’armes similaires. Alors, pourquoi Les Russes ne veulent-ils, en aucun cas, renoncer à armer l’Armée Syrienne avec des S-300 ?

    Pour comprendre ce que cette livraison d’armes signifie pour les occidentaux, il faut préciser que le secret du succès des campagnes militaires des États-Unis et d’Israël au cours des 20 dernières années, a été fondée sur la possession et l’utilisation d’un antidote universel appelé ESM / ELINT (électronic Support Measures). Ce type d’équipement permet l’enregistrement et l’analyse des émissions des radars de détection et de contrôle des systèmes d’armes de l’ennemi et de les neutraliser par brouillage. Cela permet ainsi à leur propre aviation un maximum de liberté d’action et la possibilité d’effectuer, sans pertes, toutes les missions de frappes sur des cibles air, mer et terre.

    L’élément nouveau dans le scénario classique des occidentaux, c’est que la Russie a fourni à l’armée syrienne les lanceurs de missile S-300 dotés d’un système très complexe intégrant le C4I pouvant détecter les cibles, avec une gestion automatisée de feu. Avant de servir au lancement et au guidage de missiles S-300, le système assure une surveillance efficace de l’espace aérien syrien et au-delà ses frontières par un réseau de radars fixes de basse fréquence de dernière génération, résistant au brouillage et aux attaques de missiles antiradar. A cela s’ajoute un réseau supplémentaire de radars mobiles, du type 1L119-Nebo, fonctionnant dans la bande de fréquence VHF.

    En plus de ces deux réseaux automatisés de surveillance de l’espace aérien, s’ajoute un autre élément destiné à la détection, la poursuite et l’attaque de toute source de brouillage ESM / ELINT des occidentaux (électronic Support Measures) monté sur des avions ou sur des navires de guerre.

    En pratique, avec l’exportation croissante ces nouveaux systèmes d’armes dans le monde par la Russie, les Etats-Unis, ses alliés de l’OTAN et Israël ne pourront plus imposer de soi-disant « zone d’exclusion aérienne » comme ils l’ont fait en Yougoslavie, en Irak et en Libye. Ils ne pourront pas plus prendre le risque d’une invasion terrestre avec utilisation de la flotte militaire et de l’infanterie de marines.

    Comment les Russes ont-ils réussi à concevoir et à fabriquer ce type de technologie, dans les conditions de l’effondrement de l’URSS et de déclin économique, alors que l’avantage technologique détenue par les États-Unis face à la Russie, a permis à l’Armée américaine de mener avec succès des guerres en Yougoslavie, en Irak, et en Afghanistan contre des armées équipés de matériel de guerre Soviétique? Quel pouvait être l’élément qui conférait à l’armement américain une telle suprématie ? La réponse est : le C4I (Command, Control, Communications, Computers, and Intelligence).

    C4I est un concept moderne, le seul moyen actuel pour multiplier jusqu’à 10 fois la mobilité, la vitesse de réaction, l’efficacité et la précision technique dans les guerres conventionnelles, basé sur l’utilisation extensive de la dernière génération de microprocesseur et de matériel de communication, intégrant des capteurs de détection et de guidage des armes. Pour rattraper les Américains, la Russie a mis en place une agence de recherche pour la défense similaire à Defense Advanced Research Projects du Pentagone (DARPA, créé en 1958 suite au lancement du satellite Spoutnik par l’Union soviétique), qui s’occupe de la recherche sur les risques scientifiques, et la recherche et développements sur les dernières découvertes pour l’industrie militaire Russie.

    Si on examine attentivement comment, le 27 Mars 1999, a été abattu un avion « furtif » américain F-117 à Budjanovci en Yougoslavie par le système S-125 (Neva / Petchora), on constate que l’Agence russe de recherche pour la Défense a trouvé et mis en œuvre une solution technique de détection et de destruction de ce type d’appareils et des missiles de croisière. Mais pour atteindre les performances technologiques des Etats-Unis, il faudra attendre 2008, lors de la guerre avec la Géorgie. Avant le conflit, l’armée géorgienne avait reçu, de la société américaine L-3 GCS (Leader du marché des équipements électroniques miniaturisés) et des israéliens, les systèmes C4I les plus modernes. Au lendemain de la guerre de 2008, l’armée russe a mis la main sur une grande partie des équipements C4I détenus par l’armée géorgienne, puis les a analysés, copiés et multipliés. Les composants high-tech qui en ont résulté furent largement intégrés dans la production des nouveaux systèmes d’armes ou dans la modernisation de celles déjà existantes.

    Le système modulaire C4I permet la création de réseaux tactiques de communication par l’intégration dans une plateforme telle qu’un véhicule militaire en mouvement. Il permet l’affichage et la mise à jour automatiquement de la situation tactique sur consoles avec des cartes numériques, la gestion des contrôles, les rapports de combats et la situation de la logistique (les besoins en munitions, carburant, etc), ou de surveiller l’état de préparation et de fonctionnement des systèmes d’armement. Le système C4I permet, également, d’assurer la collecte, la transmission par satellite et l’analyse des Informations au format standard de l’OTAN en temps réel grâce à des capteurs placés aux avant-postes en première ligne, et grâce aux systèmes AGS (Alliance Ground Surveillance), destinés à l’observation / suivi électronique du terrain par des moyens satellitaires et de drones performant. Toutes les informations sont dirigées vers le poste de commandement mobile au niveau de la compagnie, du bataillon ou de la brigade. Ainsi, il est possible de connaître la situation sur le plan tactique, la gestion du champ de bataille, de faciliter la prise de décision par le commandement.

    C4I permet aussi la transmission et la réception audio et vidéo avec un équipement sans fil, dans des conditions sécurisées, une grande quantité de données à haut débit telles que la voix et des données numériques, en présence de brouillage. Ses éléments disposent d’installations de mémoire, accèdent à leurs propres serveurs gérés par de puissants processeurs de dernière génération, et couvrent le spectre entier des fréquences, et sont sécurisés par un cryptage numérique.

    Valentin Vasilescu

    Ancien commandant-adjoint des forces militaires à l’Aéroport Otopeni (Roumanie)

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