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    Cuba in the Cross fire

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    Werewolf
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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  Werewolf on Sat May 30, 2015 12:58 am

    George1 wrote:US drops Cuba from list of terrorism sponsors



    Seriously if irony would be lethal the entire so called 1st world countries would explode with the force of thousand suns.

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  kvs on Sat May 30, 2015 1:34 am

    George1 wrote:US drops Cuba from list of terrorism sponsors

    The US is the biggest exporter of terrorism ever.

    1) Saudi Arabia is a US vassal state that exports Wahabbi terror.

    2) The US arms Wahabbi groups such as ISIS to enable the US to achieve its geopolitical goals, for
    example to undermine Iran and install US friendly regimes in Syria and Iraq (they actually failed in
    Iraq when the Iran aligned Shi'ite majority took over). Iran is the main counterbalance to Saudi
    influence in the middle east and outside it (e.g. in Canada).

    3) The US installed the butcher regime in Kiev which is pursuing a war of terror against the people
    of the Donbas.

    4) The US dropped two nuclear bombs on civilians in Japan "to win WWII". That was an act
    of pure terror. They could have dropped the bombs on Japanese forces or other assets. If
    the Japanese would not surrender or sue for peace, then they could have some excuse to
    ratchet up the attacks. But directly targeting civilians is a war crime.

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sat May 30, 2015 11:21 am

    kvs wrote:
    George1 wrote:US drops Cuba from list of terrorism sponsors

    The US is the biggest exporter of terrorism ever.

    1) Saudi Arabia is a US vassal state that exports Wahabbi terror.

    2) The US arms Wahabbi groups such as ISIS to enable the US to achieve its geopolitical goals, for
    example to undermine Iran and install US friendly regimes in Syria and Iraq (they actually failed in
    Iraq when the Iran aligned Shi'ite majority took over).   Iran is the main counterbalance to Saudi
    influence in the middle east and outside it (e.g. in Canada).

    3) The US installed the butcher regime in Kiev which is pursuing a war of terror against the people
    of the Donbas.

    4) The US dropped two nuclear bombs on civilians in Japan "to win WWII".  That was an act
    of pure terror.  They could have dropped the bombs on Japanese forces or other assets.  If
    the Japanese would not surrender or sue for peace, then they could have some excuse to
    ratchet up the attacks.   But directly targeting civilians is a war crime.
    Will this forum EVER understand that international politics is about interests and not about vassals, puppets etc.? Rolling Eyes

    1) Saudi Arabia is not a US "vassal". They're allied with US only because it suits their interests. Once they realize that alliance with America no longer suits their interest, they'll abandon this alliance in no time. And their treatment of Americans is far from perfect in spite of alliance - Americans in KSA clearly DON"T enjoy the same freedoms as Saudis in the United States.

    2)Expanding one's sphere of influence and fighting influence of other powers is what every major power did since the dawn of civilization. You don't like it? Great. Swallow it and move on.

    3)I don't disagree with that. But your accusations are like blaming dogs for barking

    4) Nobody in America celebrates these bombings. US society as a whole is ashamed of what their ancestors did.


    The United States of America is no more immoral than Russia, China, India, Iran or any major/regional power that exists today or in the recent past (USSR). It's simply the strongest player on the board so it's transgressions are more visible. Does it mean that other powers don't want to behave in the same way? Nope - it means they are too weak.

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 30, 2015 1:24 pm

    I think the greater irony is the more obvious... the CIA ran a terror campaign against Castro for years and never really stopped.

    It even included an attempted invasion, but assassination and terrorism, including economic terrorism like burning sugar cane fields and random cutting of power lines.

    In comparison the actual Cuban terrorism in the US was largely by the opposition to Castro...  Twisted Evil


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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sat May 30, 2015 2:21 pm

    I repat what I said some time ago - argumentum ad misericordiam is a major logical fallacy. Being hunted/persecuted does not prove moral superiority of the persecuted party. It does not prove inferiority either. In short - it proves nothing. Relative lack of Cuban terrorism in US mainland has nothing to do with some high morals of communist Cuban government - rather it has more to do with power disparity - Cuba is a small and dirty poor country and they know what the consequences will be if they decide to do something stupid.

    Well, US actions vis a vis the Cuban government have been negligible since the 1950s compared to what they could possibly do -destroying power lines, burning sugar cane fields or preparing a regiment-sized invasion force can hardly be qualified as genocidal excesses (seizing all of Cuba could easily be done with 2-3 USMC divisions)

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  max steel on Sat May 30, 2015 2:49 pm

    As long as russia exists usa can't seize cuba .

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sat May 30, 2015 3:34 pm

    max steel wrote:As long as russia exists usa can't seize cuba  .
    It could easily seize Cuba in 1990s - Russia under Yeltsin surely would not risk anything just to save a small and dirty poor island some thousands km away from the nearest Russian border. Rolling Eyes Their alliance was dissolved when USSR collapsed and mutual relations only started increasing a few years ago.

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  whir on Sat May 30, 2015 4:36 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:4) Nobody in America celebrates these bombings. US society as a whole is ashamed of what their ancestors did.
    LOL, that's simply not true, the bombings are widely justified by US society as necessary to save lives.

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  Werewolf on Sat May 30, 2015 6:15 pm

    The US society is in a limbo of self-evident propaganda that they are "Protectors of the world" and they only Bomb to safe lifes...The US can start 10 wars at once the stupid american population would not have much of a problem with it except of such a small portion that would not even be noticed within the US. The US needs a decade long war with million dead on their own soil to change their mindset about war, because they never have seen war so they happily watch other countries getting bombed by US.

    Seriously in most other countries when you walk on streets and ask question "Which country next should we invade" most would look at you with an expression of being puzzled and shocked by such stupid question. In the US the only reaction is a List of countries those uneducated population somehow managed to remember besides USA.



    You can argue as much as you want that some exceptional are not mirroring the entire population but the issue here is that is not some or a minority it is unfortunatley the big majority that do not care about anything else but shouting Patriotic idiocracy slogans they have been indoctrinated since childhood (best countr yon the planet, Exceptionalism) while only getting educated about Reality TV Shows, without even understanding a single thing about politics, such scum are the first to shout WAR,WAR,WAR.

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat May 30, 2015 6:21 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    max steel wrote:As long as russia exists usa can't seize cuba  .
    It could easily seize Cuba in 1990s - Russia under Yeltsin surely would not risk anything just to save a small and dirty poor island some thousands km away from the nearest Russian border. Rolling Eyes Their alliance was dissolved when USSR collapsed and mutual relations only started increasing a few years ago.

    Nonsense, Cuba is vital for Russia to keep America in check. Base S-500's, mobile Moscow ABM's, Murmansk-BN strategic ECM's, Iskander-M's, Blackjacks with X-102's, and eventually Zircon cruise missiles could be placed in Cuba if NATO decides to get froggy with their Euro-meatshield project, BTW the alliance wasn't dissolved...where did you hear that lie from?

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sun May 31, 2015 2:28 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    George1 wrote:US drops Cuba from list of terrorism sponsors

    The US is the biggest exporter of terrorism ever.

    1) Saudi Arabia is a US vassal state that exports Wahabbi terror.

    2) The US arms Wahabbi groups such as ISIS to enable the US to achieve its geopolitical goals, for
    example to undermine Iran and install US friendly regimes in Syria and Iraq (they actually failed in
    Iraq when the Iran aligned Shi'ite majority took over).   Iran is the main counterbalance to Saudi
    influence in the middle east and outside it (e.g. in Canada).

    3) The US installed the butcher regime in Kiev which is pursuing a war of terror against the people
    of the Donbas.

    4) The US dropped two nuclear bombs on civilians in Japan "to win WWII".  That was an act
    of pure terror.  They could have dropped the bombs on Japanese forces or other assets.  If
    the Japanese would not surrender or sue for peace, then they could have some excuse to
    ratchet up the attacks.   But directly targeting civilians is a war crime.
    Will this forum EVER understand that international politics is about interests and not about vassals, puppets etc.? Rolling Eyes

    1) Saudi Arabia is not a US "vassal". They're allied with US only because it suits their interests. Once they realize that alliance with America no longer suits their interest, they'll abandon this alliance in no time. And their treatment of Americans is far from perfect in spite of alliance - Americans in KSA clearly DON"T enjoy the same freedoms as Saudis in the United States.

    2)Expanding one's sphere of influence and fighting influence of other powers is what every major power did since the dawn of civilization. You don't like it? Great. Swallow it and move on.

    3)I don't disagree with that. But your accusations are like blaming dogs for barking

    4) Nobody in America celebrates these bombings. US society as a whole is ashamed of what their ancestors did.


    The United States of America is no more immoral than Russia, China, India, Iran or any major/regional power that exists today or in the recent past (USSR). It's simply the strongest player on the board so it's transgressions are more visible. Does it mean that other powers don't want to behave in the same way? Nope - it means they are too weak.


    So much A-grade BS in this statement. I agree that the Saudis aren't vassals, but due to them being run by a bunch of bratty princes makes them exceptionally easier to control, simply give them more candy if they get unruly. The entirety of the EU on the other hand is most certainly a collection of vassal states, as can be demonstrated today by their incredible willingness to be the fall-guy for the US e.g. economic sanctions against Russia, a country they almost solely rely on for their energy needs and agricultural imports, sanctions that hurt them far more than it hurts "their" target. Oh, did I mention the US gets off scot-free?
    All of the supposedly "big" players in Europe are locked into a military alliance with the US where their combined militaries make up less than quarter of the alliance's total power, the other three-quarters belonging to their gratuitous overlord Uncle Sam who, being the majority shareholder, gets to call the shots (quite literally), and there's crap-all any of the crushed idiots underneath can do about it. That is vassal behavior.



    Yes, but no. I don't know if you've noticed but we've been through two World Wars and nearly obliterated the human race off the face of the earth in a nuclear arms race since the Roman-esque era and rules you imply. Those rules should have changed, and they had a chance to at the end of World War II, but the West, particularly the United States, were so concerned that their new found power would be ripped out from under them by the Soviet warmachine that they never even gave peace in a new multipolar world a thought. Indeed Churchill thought that Russia hadn't suffered nearly enough, so put forward a plan to nuke the rest of them. Charming. That sort of thing breeds a wonderful atmosphere for long-term peace plans. Besides, the Nazis were just the US' bad dog that got off the leash, if only Hitler hadn't mobilized against Europe, but rather had attacked the Soviet Union first, things would have turned out so much better for the oh so exceptional nation across the sea.
    The state of paranoia was so strong that no one even stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, the nation that had lost 20,000,000 of its own countrymen and women actually had zero interest in another war. Of course nuking Japan to scare Stalin shitless was the best idea 'murica could come up with. Again, such fantastic, insightful peace-planning.

    Which leads me on to the next point. I was in a store the other day and overheard a man talking to a yank about the nuking of Japan. The store owner was saying how his granddaughter had written a school essay on the greatest humanitarian act of our time. Do you know what she picked? The nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do you think the two men were talking in disgust about her chosen topic? No, they stood there and praised it. So don't talk to me about how it's widely regarded as a blot in US history. I have only ever seen it actively praised or justified by the US citizens I have talked to, never the opposite.

    As for blaming dogs for barking, go read William Blum's list on US interventions since 1945 then come back and tell us we're blaming dogs for barking.


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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 31, 2015 5:18 am

    I repat what I said some time ago - argumentum ad misericordiam is a major logical fallacy.

    And I am sure Goebbels would approve the idea that repeating a claim over and over often enough makes it true.. but that doesn't make it true either.

    Being hunted/persecuted does not prove moral superiority of the persecuted party. It does not prove inferiority either.

    No... all it proves is that the bullying party is misusing their power against a weak opponent... some countries might respect such nonsence, but the official morality of the US is actually against such behaviour, so the countries that will be impressed will be countries that are completely unlike the US in terms of morals and values like Saudi Arabia, so why do other countries condone US behaviour?

    Fear that they might bring the same sort of attention from the US if they don't fall into line... a coalition of the afraid...

    BTW Cuba maintains a moral superiority over the US because they are standing up to a bully that is rather more powerful than they are and they could never defeat on the battlefield, yet they still stand against them... that shows backbone... a rare thing these days.

    Relative lack of Cuban terrorism in US mainland has nothing to do with some high morals of communist Cuban government - rather it has more to do with power disparity - Cuba is a small and dirty poor country and they know what the consequences will be if they decide to do something stupid.

    Rubbish... Al quada was able to perpetrate terrorist acts on US soil... it is not that hard or expensive.... even a tiny nation like Fiji could do it if they wanted... hell with a truck and some diesel and fertiliser Timothy McVeitch was able to do it very easily.

    All through the cold war the Cubans had the Soviets backing them... they could have created a false organisation... say the Cuban intervention army... lets call them the CIA for short to attack infrastructure and civilian targets in the US with the mission to kill people until the US stopped attacking Cuba... what would the US do exactly?

    Well, US actions vis a vis the Cuban government have been negligible since the 1950s compared to what they could possibly do -destroying power lines, burning sugar cane fields or preparing a regiment-sized invasion force can hardly be qualified as genocidal excesses (seizing all of Cuba could easily be done with 2-3 USMC divisions)

    Indeed attacking infrastructure and over 200 attempts to murder Castro and an actual invasion attempt are negligible compared with the excesses we have seen from the US that ranges from regime change in a dozen countries or more and now an attempt at regime change at FIFA... but compared with the actions of Cuba against the US they are significant because the reciprocal actions have been nonexistent... yet they call Cuba a state that supports terrorism.

    Hypocrites... 

    It could easily seize Cuba in 1990s - Russia under Yeltsin surely would not risk anything just to save a small and dirty poor island some thousands km away from the nearest Russian border. Their alliance was dissolved when USSR collapsed and mutual relations only started increasing a few years ago.

    And how long would Vietnam part II last for the US exactly?

    When the local population hates you, you can't really stay very long... and the idea that all the Cuban exiles in Miami would suddenly take over and control Cuba is amusing for all those Cubans who stayed...

    LOL, that's simply not true, the bombings are widely justified by US society as necessary to save lives.

    I am afraid you are right... most westerners believe the Japanese started the Pacific War by attacking Pearl Harbour, but of course it really started several years before when the US and UK imposed sanctions on Japan because they thought they were growing too fast... remind anyone of anything?

    Like current sanctions on Russia... and likely future sanctions on China regarding rights over certain islands...  hmm that sounds like a sensible way to go...  Rolling Eyes


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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sun May 31, 2015 7:25 am

    GarryB wrote:
    And how long would Vietnam part II last for the US exactly?

    When the local population hates you, you can't really stay very long... and the idea that all the Cuban exiles in Miami would suddenly take over and control Cuba is amusing for all those Cubans who stayed...
    am I the only one here imagining hordes of coked-up Tony Montanas as the guerilla force? Twisted Evil

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Sun May 31, 2015 10:31 am

    Cubans don't hate Americans and America - and it can be easily seen by comparing numbers of Cubans that migrated to USA versus number of Americans that migrated to Cuba.

    By the way - America can take no more credit for it's expansionism than you do for the carbon dioxide you exhale - expansionism simply is THE way politics manifests itself - and you can't change it without invoking a magical demon that controls the minds of all people on earth, preventing them from ever again interfaring in each other's political affairs.

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sun May 31, 2015 1:19 pm

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:Cubans don't hate Americans and America - and it can be easily seen by comparing numbers of Cubans that migrated to USA versus number of Americans that migrated to Cuba.

    By the way - America can take no more credit for it's expansionism than you do for the carbon dioxide you exhale - expansionism simply is THE way politics manifests itself - and you can't change it without invoking a magical demon that controls the minds of all people on earth, preventing them from ever again interfaring in each other's political affairs.

    Of course expansion is natural, how you go about enacting your expansion is something else altogether. Take the EEU or BRICS for instance, organisations that attempt to help their member nations by exacting mutually beneficial trade agreements and developing healthy trade relationships. That is expansion in its own right, the difference being that both parties benefit from it.

    Land expansion (war essentially, where the stronger party takes from the weaker) is nothing but greed in most cases, certainly not a natural occurrence in a nation's development.

    Excusing US crimes against the world as being a natural "survival of the fittest" occurrence is where you're missing it here. In this age and "globalised" era there is no need for a modern day Rome.

    Has it ever struck you as odd that the King of Capitalism is scared to death of competition?

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:04 am

    Cubans don't hate Americans and America - and it can be easily seen by comparing numbers of Cubans that migrated to USA versus number of Americans that migrated to Cuba.

    I would say all Cubans hate all American governments past and present... half of the Cubans will hate the governments of the US because they think they have gone too far in punishing Cuba for something that was really nothing to do with the US in the first place... and I think that the other half of Cubans will hate the US government for not going far enough in saving Cuba from the Commies.

    At the end of the day the sanctions and bad behaviour has only hurt the average Cuban... the people they pretend they want to help.

    By the way - America can take no more credit for it's expansionism than you do for the carbon dioxide you exhale -

    Bullshit.

    Both Russia and China are growing in power... political, economic, and military and you don't see either country imposing sanctions except in response.

    The irony is that the US claims the moral high ground... something neither Russia nor China do... with the US the bullying comes with a sermon...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:00 pm

    US and Cuba to Announce Embassy Openings on Wednesday

    As the two countries work towards normalizing diplomatic relations, the United States and Cuba are set to announce on Wednesday the reopening of embassies in Washington and Havana.

    Speaking to the Associated Press on condition of anonymity, a senior official with the Obama administration said President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry will announce the plans to reopen Cuba’s embassy on Wednesday morning.

    The news comes after US Senators called for the reopening of the embassies during a visit to Havana on Saturday.

    "We must open an embassy, a full embassy," said Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy, a frequent visitor to Cuba. "Some in the Congress oppose opening it. I like to say that they are very much in the minority."

    "One of the reasons it’s important to have a full mission for the United States in Cuba is it can represent American interest in Cuba," he added."


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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  George1 on Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:42 am

    US, Cuba reopening embassies after more than 50 years

    WASHINGTON/HAVANA, July 20. /TASS/. The United States and Cuba will begin a new stage of relations on Monday by reopening their embassies in Washington and Havana. The states are restoring diplomatic relations and taking the last step to leave behind half a century of mutual hostility and mistrust.

    The American mission in the Cuban capital will be transformed into an embassy without any official ceremonies. The US Interests Section in Havana will be transferred into the category of an embassy without hoisting the national flag of the United States. According to an unnamed official of the US State Department, quoted by the Cuban media, there are no legal requirements for hoisting the flag for the official opening of a diplomatic mission. This important event will take place during US Secretary of State John Kerry’ visit to Havana to be held shortly, the official added. However, Kerry’s visit date has not been specified.

    Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez Parrilla will travel to the Cuban Embassy in Washington to raise his country's flag, an event that Cuban government officials said will be broadcast live on the island's state-run TV, CCN reported.


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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  George1 on Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:28 am

    Kerry to Visit Cuba on August 14


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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:32 am

    US Diplomats in Cuba No Longer Need Travelling Permit


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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  Kyo on Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:38 pm

    Russia to supply generators to Cuba https://www.rt.com/business/319081-cuba-russia-power-plant/

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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:13 am

    Castro to Obama: Relations Won't Be Normal Until Guantanamo Returned



    As US President Barack Obama makes a historic visit to Cuba following a thaw in relations, Cuban President Raul Castro has stressed that complete normalization cannot be achieved until Guantanamo Bay is returned to Havana.

    Meeting with Obama in Havana, Castro stressed that the US must abandon its territory at Guantanamo and lift its embargo against Cuba.

    "Much more can be done if the embargo is lifted," he said. "We recognize the position President Obama is in, and the position his government holds against the blockade, and that they have called on Congress to lift it."

    The Cuban president added that there remain "profound differences that will not disappear over our political model, democracy, human rights, social justice, international relations, peace and stability," and stressed that the Cuban people will not "relinquish what they have gained through great sacrifice."

    Castro denied accusations that Cuba holds political prisoners, saying "give me a list of those political prisoners and if the list exists they will be released before the night is through."

    Speaking to reporters, President Obama said he could not offer an exact timeframe for the end of the embargo, but stressed that Washington does not view Havana as a threat.

    "What I have said to President Castro is that we are moving forward and not looking backwards, that we don't view Cuba as a threat to the United Statesm," he said. "The embargo's going to end. When? I can't be entirely sure. The fact that there has been strong support, not just inside of Congress, but also among the Cuban people, indicates that this is a process that should continue."

    "We're moving ahead with more opportunities for Americans to travel to Cuba and interact with the Cuba people," he added. "We are ready to pursue more commercial ties, which create jobs and opportunities for Cubans and Americans alike."

    Still, the US does have concerns.

    "People are still concerned about [human rights] inside of Cuba," Obama added. "We can't force change on any particular country, ultimately it has to come from within."

    While recognizing these concerns, Castro said that no country on Earth can meet all international human rights standards. He hopes that all countries can work together to meet those standards.

    According to a White House press release, the US and Cuba have already launched a joint effort to combat the Zika virus.

    "The United States and Cuba have committed to deepen scientific and public health cooperation, focusing on communicable diseases including arboviruses such as Zika, dengue and chikungunya [and]…on the prevention and treatment of Chronic…diseases such as cancer," the White House said in a fact sheet released on Monday.

    "In the coming months, the United States and Cuba intend to work toward finalizing arrangements to strengthen our collaboration in these and other scientific and health areas."

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/us/20160321/1036693498/castro-obama-guantanamo.html#ixzz43iBr0C1o


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    Re: Cuba in the Cross fire

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:14 am

    Havana Condemns US Selective Approach in Helping Cuban People

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/latam/20160320/1036631973/havana-us-cubans.html#ixzz43iCPERr0


    Keys to US-Cuban Normalization: End Embargo & Stop Regime Change Efforts

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    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov


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