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    Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

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    sepheronx
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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:45 pm

    It is an xband radar. Its antenna apparently shares commonality with aesa radars so it can recieve signals much like aesa but is a pesa in terms of scanning/tracking (I think. I could be wrong) as someone told me once. Narrow band? How would it operate as such?

    Does this person bring any evidence to the table? Or not. Berkut, on mp.net, posted a video of Irbis E detecting/tracking a target at roughly 390 or so KM. So its performance is correct.

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    BARS and IRBIS

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:59 pm

    Austin wrote:
    http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6842&sid=09f75535375128adbc1b01009f207c79&start=1040#p1893826

    He basically state about that 400 Km range is only obtainable through slow scan.

    Well that is true for all radar. Not limited to Irbis but also Bars and other fighter radar. One thing that determine the detection range is the received signal energy, the longer radar beam can "dwell" within its search area, the more signal energy it receive thus the longer detection range. This "Dwell time" is also called as "ToT" or "Time on Target"

    When searching large volume, scan is deliberately slowed to maintain that ToT. This "slow down" however is of course will be balanced with desired detection probability as the target might be already moved away from the search area before "visited" by the beam thus undetected.


    Anyway Richard G Curry's book give quite convenient definitions for this Volume search problem namely :
    Detection range : This is basically calculated range come from appropriate radar range equation.
    Assured detection range : This range is where the target is assured to be detected, this was taken as 3/4 of detection range
    Average detection range at random location within the search volume : Self explained.. This valus is taken as 7/8 of detection range.

    Applying it to Irbis (ofcourse with assumption that 400 km range is indeed from volume search) we can see that assured detection range for Irbis for that 3 m sqm is 300 Km and average detection range within its search volume is 350 Km.


    Scanning at small volume may also yield long detection range. Thus why we have GCI or AEW, to help cueing fighters to target.

    x_54_u43
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    Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  x_54_u43 on Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:11 am



    victor1985
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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  victor1985 on Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:22 am

    that would reduce alot the weight of a system...... they could be easily mounted even on small drones

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:14 pm

    x_54_u43 wrote:

    Wow, fantastic picture. Where did you find it?

    @ Victor

    It isn't just that, but the massive reduction in size allows far more modules on 1 unit, and potentially makes it much easier to cool the device as well.

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:09 pm

    x_54_u43 wrote:

    The 170 g and the 80 g modules are quad modules, each with four T/R elements. Each of the modules on the right consists of one T/R element; so I think four of the modules on the right have a combined mass of less than 10 g.

    The scales used for the three module types are not the same.

    http://www.ato.ru/content/phazotron-niirs-new-radars

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  victor1985 on Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:28 pm

    and more exacly those elements what are? transistors?

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:30 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    x_54_u43 wrote:

    The 170 g and the 80 g modules are quad modules, each with four T/R elements. Each of the modules on the right consists of one T/R element; so I think four of the modules on the right have a combined mass of less than 10 g.

    The scales used for the three module types are not the same.

    http://www.ato.ru/content/phazotron-niirs-new-radars

    Thanks for the link. Unfortunately the link doesn't state regarding the other modules being quad or not. Do you happen to have another link that may break it down more?

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  x_54_u43 on Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:06 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Wow, fantastic picture.  Where did you find it?


    Helps if you know Russian.


    The 170 g and the 80 g modules are quad modules, each with four T/R elements. Each of the modules on the right consists of one T/R element; so I think four of the modules on the right have a combined mass of less than 10 g.

    The scales used for the three module types are not the same.

    http://www.ato.ru/content/phazotron-niirs-new-radars

    I just found the picture, nevertheless it still is very interesting to look at.

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:36 am

    victor1985 wrote:and more exacly those elements what are? transistors?

    Each of the modules has the digital and the analog (including the microwave) circuitry for one or more transmit/receive (T/R) elements of the AFAR (AESA) array. This circuitry consists of a huge number of transistors (mainly included on monolithic integrated circuits) and other elements. The circuitry realizes the functionalities that include amplification, frequency conversion, controlled phase-shifting (or controlled time delay generation, in nonexportable systems), digital-to-analog conversion (D/A), analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion, signal processing, control, and microwave feed. The images below of an exportable Zhuk-AEh show an AFAR array of 170 of the 170 g quad modules, providing a total of 680 T/R elements.

    A backplane controls all of the modules to perform higher functions like beam-forming.





    sepheronx wrote:Thanks for the link.  Unfortunately the link doesn't state regarding the other modules being quad or not.  Do you happen to have another link that may break it down more?

    As alluded to in the above passage, the quad nature of the 170 g and the 80 g modules can be determined via visual inspection. The structure to the left of the image of the 170 g module are four feeds, the face of which are visible in the array of the Zhuk-AEh shown above.

    I have a Fazotron PDF document that covers a lot of this in a lot more detail; I'll try to convert its relevant sections to JPEG images and post them here.

    Meanwhile, here is a link—sorry that it's "by" Kopp.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html


    By the way, the first image is by our own legendary Vitalij Kuzmin.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:12 am; edited 5 times in total

    x_54_u43
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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  x_54_u43 on Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:43 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    Meanwhile, here is a link—sorry that it's "by" Kopp.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html

    What is wrong with Kopp? Australia Air Power is not a bad site.

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:47 am

    x_54_u43 wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    Meanwhile, here is a link—sorry that it's "by" Kopp.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html

    What is wrong with Kopp? Australia Air Power is not a bad site.

    Mainly that it's copy-and-paste based, with a lot of technical and other kind of gross errors.

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:05 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    victor1985 wrote:and more exacly those elements what are? transistors?

    Each of the modules has the digital and the analog (including the microwave) circuitry for one or more transmit/receive (T/R) elements of the AFAR (AESA) array. This circuitry consists of a huge number of transistors (mainly included on monolithic integrated circuits) and other elements. The circuitry realizes the functionalities that include amplification, frequency conversion, controlled phase-shifting (or controlled time delay generation, in nonexportable systems), digital-to-analog conversion (D/A), analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion, signal processing, control, and microwave feed. The images below of an exportable Zhuk-AEh show an AFAR array of 170 of the 170 g quad modules, providing a total of 680 T/R modules.

    A backplane controls all of the modules to perform higher functions like beam-forming.





    sepheronx wrote:Thanks for the link.  Unfortunately the link doesn't state regarding the other modules being quad or not.  Do you happen to have another link that may break it down more?

    As alluded to in the above passage, the quad nature of the 170 g and the 80 g modules can be determined via visual inspection. The structure to the left of the image of the 170 g module are four feeds, the face of which are visible in the array of the Zhuk-AEh shown above.

    I have a Fazotron PDF document that covers a lot of this in a lot more detail; I'll try to convert its relevant sections to JPEG images and post them here.

    Meanwhile, here is a link—sorry that it's "by" Kopp.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html


    By the way, the first image is by our own legendary Vitalij Kuzmin.

    Thanks. Could you also upload the PDF as well too? I keep a record of them around and would like to add.

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  x_54_u43 on Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:11 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    x_54_u43 wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:

    Meanwhile, here is a link—sorry that it's "by" Kopp.

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html

    What is wrong with Kopp? Australia Air Power is not a bad site.

    Mainly that it's copy-and-paste based, with a lot of technical and other kind of gross errors.

    It has its problems, but I do remember when the F-35 main flight specs were released and APA released a bit more conservative ones, which they got flak for.

    Turns out Cockheed Moremoney revised them later down the line and APA was proven right in the end.

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