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    Winter War 1939–1940

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    George1
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    Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:38 pm

    The Winter War was a military conflict between the Soviet Union and Finland in 1939–1940. It began with the Soviet invasion of Finland on 30 November 1939 (three months after the outbreak of World War II), and ended with the Moscow Peace Treaty on 13 March 1940.
    The League of Nations deemed the attack illegal and expelled the Soviet Union from the League on 14 December 1939.

    The Red Army faced a disastrously underestimated opponent, suffering a series of embarrassing defeats.

    However in 1940 the Soviets reorganized their forces and mauled the enemy in a final great offensive. Mannerheim, the Finnish commander, then advised his government to negotiate peace on Soviet terms. Recognizing that they had lost the war, the Finns wisely chose to settle early with the Soviets, while there was still potential for a relatively lenient peace treaty. In the end, the Finns retained their independence, but ceded huge tracts of territory, and resources, to the victorious Soviets.


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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:39 pm

    This war came as a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that gave a great opportunity to Soviet Union to recover the provinces of Imperial Russia that lost during the chaos of the October Revolution and Russian Civil War

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  fredleander on Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:52 pm

    George1 wrote:This war came as a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that gave a great opportunity to Soviet Union to recover the provinces of Imperial Russia that lost during the chaos of the October Revolution and Russian Civil War

    As for recovering provinces of Imperial Russia, I believe the Soviet Union offered twice as much land to the Finns as they asked for. Certainly less valuable land but that their wish to expand their forward defense line was valid was proven by history.

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  Battalion0415 on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:38 pm

    85000 finnish soldiers against half million soldiers from Soviet. Great tactics from leader Stalin.

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:29 am

    85000 finnish soldiers against half million soldiers from Soviet. Great tactics from leader Stalin.

    During WWII the US decided to attack one of the northern islands between Alaska and Japan.

    they mounted a huge assault and lost 24 men in the attack... there were no Japanese on the island.

    Great tactics from worlds only superpower. Rolling Eyes


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    TR1
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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:44 am

    GarryB wrote:
    85000 finnish soldiers against half million soldiers from Soviet. Great tactics from leader Stalin.

    During WWII the US decided to attack one of the northern islands between Alaska and Japan.

    they mounted a huge assault and lost 24 men in the attack... there were no Japanese on the island.

    Great tactics from worlds only superpower.  Rolling Eyes

    At least the US didn't lose hundreds of thousands of its soldiers due to gross incompetence, like the Red Army did due to Stalin.

    Let's not whitewash how criminally incompetent he was.

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:35 am

    TR1 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    85000 finnish soldiers against half million soldiers from Soviet. Great tactics from leader Stalin.

    During WWII the US decided to attack one of the northern islands between Alaska and Japan.

    they mounted a huge assault and lost 24 men in the attack... there were no Japanese on the island.

    Great tactics from worlds only superpower.  Rolling Eyes

    At least the US didn't lose hundreds of thousands of its soldiers due to gross incompetence, like the Red Army did due to Stalin.

    Let's not whitewash how criminally incompetent he was.

    Sure, because he directed every single regiment,brigade and division himself and his generals drunk vodka and played balalaika doing nothing else...what is criminal is the education and simplicity some people put to light when it comes to history, trying always to push the agenda that those were "dictatorships" were only one person was responsible for everything, with this agenda that is constantly pushed it is impossible today for younger generations to imagine that those past dictatorships worked the same way todays dictatorships like US work, with lot of sub-assholes that share all the work of war crimes which people tend to believe that this fact somehow makes the todays warlords of NATO not dictators and not bad people.

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  Battalion0415 on Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:55 pm

    United States haved more money Soviet Union.

    30-35 procent where for military budjet in Soviet Union.

    5 procent in military budjet in United States as well now.

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:22 pm

    LOL @ the downvote on my post. Truth hurts doesn't it. The Generalissmus should have been put into the ground for 1941 alone.

    Stalin white-washers are the best.

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:23 pm

    At least the US didn't lose hundreds of thousands of its soldiers due to gross incompetence, like the Red Army did due to Stalin.

    Let's not whitewash how criminally incompetent he was.

    No, the US lost very few soldiers in comparison... mainly because they waited until the germans had largely been beaten before they stepped up to the plate in 1944.

    It was the sort of plan Stalin would have come up with... let them fight amongst themselves and then join in when it was clear who was going to win, on the winning side, so they get to pretend after the war that they won largely by themselves...

    Stalin was many things but I seem to remember the western allies collapsing in the face of smaller numbers of german forces later on in the war... I am surprised the British didn't blame Stalin for Dunkirk... The Germans only stopped by the Channel... I wonder how those super soldiers would have done in the forests of Finland...

    Most of the imperial wars the Brits and French did so well at often involved machine gunning natives armed with little more than spears... how would they have done at the start of WWII with mostly rifles against Fins with SMGs in the forest.

    But no, everything bad that happened was Stalins fault... and every mistake the German officers made was Hitlers fault... if only they let the generals do what they wanted and both sides would have won... or perhaps they would still be fighting now...


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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  collegeboy16 on Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:44 pm

    hmm, i always felt skeptical about simo hayha. i mean arctic is hell of a hard environment to fight - the cold kills more than enemy action in most cases and it is literally frozen hell for snipers., and you expect me to believe a single dude can rack up 500 kills using rifle with iron sights only in 100 days with each day only a few hours of light?
    not to mention there is a dearth of any other high kill count finnish snipers- for such a supposedly target rich environment surely others would have been on in the fun?, or were they all "simo hayha"?

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:40 am


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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:55 am

    or were they all "simo hayha"?

    I must say I have a problem with this finnish sniper. The vast majority of his kills were reportedly with a SMG, which, in my opinion should not count towards his tally of kills as a sniper... I am sure there are plenty of MG teams that could claim "sniper" kills in the tens of thousands during the stalemate of WWI on the western front alone, while artillery and air power could easily claim kills in large numbers too.

    A sniper is like a big game hunter so personal tallies make sense... just like fighter pilots, though in the latter case they count aircraft rather than human lives.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  collegeboy16 on Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:16 am

    GarryB wrote:
    I must say I have a problem with this finnish sniper. The vast majority of his kills were reportedly with a SMG, which, in my opinion should not count towards his tally of kills as a sniper... I am sure there are plenty of MG teams that could claim "sniper" kills in the tens of thousands during the stalemate of WWI on the western front alone, while artillery and air power could easily claim kills in large numbers too.

    A sniper is like a big game hunter so personal tallies make sense... just like fighter pilots, though in the latter case they count aircraft rather than human lives.
    and that just makes it a lot more unbelievable for me- close up firefights with automatic weapons fire is very, very risky business.
    1 man with an SMG is no match for a platoon worth of conscript armed with the same weapon, the difference in firepower is just too high unless you have some supernatural invisibility and jumping like that quiet chick in the new MGS.

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:43 am

    That was the key though... the Fins weren't super soldiers, they just had the right weapons and the right tactics... in the close in environment of a forest the Fins had SMGs while the Soviets mostly had rifles and MGs and the wrong tactics.

    Fighting on the eastern front in Mongolia against the Japanese showed the Soviets were not totally inept, they did rather well there but most western sources emphasise the war against Finland and ignore the war against the inferior Japanese... very much racism because the Semi Euro Soviets were expected to defeat the asian japanese forces, but against a european force the half asian soviets were taught a lesson even if they did prevale with numbers in the end.

    Reality is that those same inferior Japanese forces then went on to hand the Americans a stinging defeat in the Phillipines and elsewhere and pushed back all the European colonial powers like France in Indochina (now Vientam) and of course the british out of all their little colonial asian countries.

    Back to the original point... one guy with a SMG against lots of enemy with SMGs would be over fairly shortly... one guy in a Forest who is familiar with the forest and is armed with a SMG against large numbers of enemy troops armed with rifles in an ambush situation...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Winter War 1939–1940

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:33 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Back to the original point... one guy with a SMG against lots of enemy with SMGs would be over fairly shortly... one guy in a Forest who is familiar with the forest and is armed with a SMG against large numbers of enemy troops armed with rifles in an ambush situation...
    true, but with the large amount of guys in a patrol even armed only with rifles and a machinegun or a couple you can expect them to start jumping into cover against someone with smg in ambush situation very quickly-can't miss getting direction of fire from automatic weapons at close ranges, and then opening fire into whatever bush, snow pile, or tree those came from. lots of rifle fire and grenades plus machinegun a couple of moments later should keep the lone ambusher down and if he keeps down he is eventually finished. ofc. terrain should provide some respite from return fire until the ambusher can get out of dodge but as i said this is very risky(with arty on the other side is even more so) even then and very often results in the SMG-user dead before the fabled half of 700 kills can be made.

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