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    Russian Infantry Training

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:18 am

    Trigger discipline is pretty new thing in Russian military.
    Russia is bit lagging regards all the procedures, but I'm not sure if You are aware, but Russian NCO corps are getting bigger, more professional and more demanding. There are more and more videos and pictures of soldiers who follow this discipline. Russian army is still mixed bag when it comes training. AFAIK in some armies You get penalties for unintentional weapon discharge, I hope it is the same in Russian army too Smile Would keep those fingers in place.
    And yeah, look at this, pointing weapon at Your buddy or Your buddies getting into Your cover zone..

    It's not only gun safety, but tactics that needs to be improved. But they will get there, don't You worry.

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  OminousSpudd on Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:33 am

    sweartome123 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Funny... asking questions and then having a rant before you have heard the answers... sounds a little like the answers don't matter to you?

    BTW bad trigger discipline happens everywhere... do you really want us to post western special forces with fingers on triggers with targets not in sight?


    I'm not ranting. I simply asked two questions and added my thoughts in regards to them.

    "BTW bad trigger discipline happens everywhere... do you really want us to post western special forces with fingers on triggers with targets not in sight?"

    This is irrelevant. I'm talking about gun safety in the Russian military, not anyone else. I don't care what is done or not done in the west.

    It's just bothersome to see such widespread disregard for gun safety at the core of Russia's forces. Gun safety isn't a problem with more elite units like the military police, scouts, and special forces. It's a problem with your standard soldier. With Russia being an increasingly modern and professional military, I just don't understand why poor gun safety is so frequent. Gun safety is a smart measure that helps prevent needless injury or death and therefore needs to taken seriously.

    You certainly have a valid point. I think we tend to jump the gun a bit ourselves around here when critique appears to single out Russia with little regard for its nearest equivalents. Gun safety in most militaries is utterly abysmal and it's only due to safeties themselves that a lot of FF casualties are avoided. That being said, Russian Forces could and are improving steadily as Regular noted.

    Seeing US forces in the field on countless videos with their fingers glued to their triggers is a tad more scary, as these guys are actually in combat, whereas most Russian gun related mishaps occur on the training grounds. The blasè attitude behind American grunts has always been there and always will be from the looks of things, but this should not reflect on the level of discipline in the Russian Army.

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:21 am

    I'm not ranting. I simply asked two questions and added my thoughts in regards to them.

    Your thoughts were answers to the questions you asked... why bother asking if you are providing the answers yourself?

    This is irrelevant. I'm talking about gun safety in the Russian military, not anyone else. I don't care what is done or not done in the west.

    Of course... Russia must live up to ideal western standards of practise but for goodness sake don't expect western equivalents to come close to those standards... do you work for the US State Department by any chance.... Smile

    Why is gun safety only important in the Russian military?

    Or in this discussion can we only look at problems for the Russian military in isolation and separate from everything else?

    It's just bothersome to see such widespread disregard for gun safety at the core of Russia's forces. Gun safety isn't a problem with more elite units like the military police, scouts, and special forces. It's a problem with your standard soldier. With Russia being an increasingly modern and professional military, I just don't understand why poor gun safety is so frequent. Gun safety is a smart measure that helps prevent needless injury or death and therefore needs to taken seriously.

    Gun safety needs to be taken more seriously by everyone, but my limited views of documentaries of Western forces in Afghanistan and Iraq it seems that gun safety becomes less of a priority in combat, but then that is common for many traditions... look at western claims of marksmanship.... single shots for everything yet most footage I have seen of US and British troops shows firing in bursts at often unseen targets. So much for accuracy the west prides itself in...

    Lots of important stuff from the manual goes out the window when the shooting starts... and not just Russian manuals.



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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:39 pm

    Soldiers in Crimea had good trigger discipline, even when their mags where out. Look it up on pictures. Says something about BSF marines. Very professional soldiers, day and night difference from 58th army guys.
    It's not russian army, but look at separatist instructors(I think they are advisors from Russian military so take it as You wish) in DNR,LNR who trained militia firing drills. Trigger discipline, combat movement, sector coverage and etc. Those drills looked more practical than I did in NATO army.
    Look at Motorola and his weapon handling. He has russian military background.

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    1. What is the training like for soldiers in the Russian military? How does it compare to US and NATO training?

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:09 pm

    Lots of important stuff from the manual goes out the window when the shooting starts... and not just Russian manuals
    True, but that's why You drill it into instinct. Vetted guys handle battle stress very well. Videos from Ukraine or Chechnya when guys do everything by the book could be used as an example.
    I personally never seen combat, but got shot at few times. First time after me and my best army friend messed up in movement and we were supressed by our own MG. It pretty much paralyzed me as bullets were wizzing few meters past us to the target groups. Tracers could be seen, but I could't look back, it realy disoriented me. It has nothing to do with courage, You simply don't know how to react.

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Sanctus Ferri on Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:50 am

    >>I've heard from so called experts on other games and weapons forums that soviet mechanized infantry had completely inferior training to all their NATO nation counterparts due to being conscripted and the AK-74, RPK-74 and PKM all supposedly being less accurate than the m60, G3, L1A1, FAMAS, MG3, NF1,etc. Is this true?
    >>

    You can't really lump all those weapons together and make a valid comparison. However, I can offer you some specific examples where the accuracy argument does not hold:

    The M16 series, firing an M855 is ballistically less accurate (has a larger dispersion pattern fired from a bench and clamp) than an AK-74 firing any of the standard Soviet/Russian issue cartridges. The only advantage the M16 has is a longer sight radius, something that the AK-12 corrects, and which is in any case becoming less relevant as optical sights come into common use.

    While this has been corrected with the issue of the M855A1 and Mk.318, etc, which are between 1.5 and 4 times more accurate than M855 depending on lots compared, it remains to be seen if these accuracy standards will be maintained. The US government accuracy specification for M855 had to be lowered by 50% when the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were getting under way. Available manufacturers could not simultaneously meet military demand and maintain the original accuracy standard.

    The US has greatly reduced it's manufacturing capability since the height of the Cold War, and you can assume that if called upon to fight a major war with a vaguely peer opponent, the volume of production required by combat would cause a marked lowering of standards across the board in weapons systems and especially ammunition.

    The L85, firing the British version of the SS109 is also less ballistically accurate than the AK-74 and it's service cartridges. The reputation the L85 has for accuracy comes from it's SUSAT sight, which was issued at a time when most infantryman did not get optical sights. The basic weapon and cartridge, without a human operator and 4x scope, is less accurate than the L1A1 it replaced. Put an equivalent sight on an AK-74 and you get a slightly more accurate weapon than an L85.

    The FN Minimi, AKA the M249 SAW is horribly inaccurate. When the USMC conducted trials a few years back to evaluate potential replacements, the M249 was considerably outperformed by the Colt HBAR, Ultimax and G36 in this role, which led to the eventual adoption of the M27 to replace or supplement it at the squad level. In terms of dispersion, a plain old 1947 original AK clearly outperforms the M249, having half the dispersion.

    Although individual rounds vary in exact length and shape, and therefore accuracy, the 7.62x54mm Russian is, generally speaking, a longer and more aerodynamic (and therefore more accurate) cartridge than the 7.62x51mm NATO. While various western nations have designed some extremely accurate weapons for the 7.62 NATO (M40, M24 SWS, HK.21), there is absolutely nothing preventing Russia from fielding an equally or more accurate weapon, which, (having not seen the accuracy specifications of Russia's newer sniper rifles), they may already have done.

    >>High rate of fire = loads of wasted ammo...For example new HK machine guns have lower firing rates.
    >>

    That depends on the training of the operator. In theory, if you have two otherwise identical weapons fire the same number of bullets in a burst, the one with the higher cyclic rate will experience less muzzle rise by the time the bullets have left the barrel, and therefore obtain a tighter dispersion pattern. It simply requires that the gunner have sufficient skill to tightly control their bursts. Germans have historically placed more trust in the skill of their troops than other NATO countries. HK's newer guns are designed to appeal to a larger audience than the Bundeswehr (which buys things in ever smaller quantities as it's size and budget shrinks), hence they follow the pattern of more widely used MGs.

    The US, by contrast, has historically treated it's lower enlisted ranks like hapless children who needed to be constantly managed and have their hands held, which is why for the 2 decades between the issue of the M16A2 and M4A1 the US was the only nation in NATO whose standard infantry rifle did not possess fully automatic capability (with the British having switched to thee L85 two years after the M16A2 was introduced.)

    >>That said, US/NATO basic training was typically longer, anywhere from 2-3 times longer. The British have some of the longest basic training, at least they do these days... Indeed Britain's basic training is about 2 times longer than America's longest basic training... Basic training for the >>Royal Army is about 6.5 months long, compared with 13 weeks for the US Marine Corps. If you want to be in the infantry of the Royal Army, your basic training is about 26 weeks long, at least today.
    >>

    That's not quite right. First, a month averages 4.3 weeks, not 4.0 so the 26 week Combat Infantryman's Course is almost exactly 6 months, not 6.5. Second, the British do their basic and advanced infantry training together. The USMC does not.

    US Army infantry training, which, like the British Army, combines basic and infantry specialist training into one course, is only 13 weeks and 3 days, about half as long as the British version. US Marines, after completing their 13 week recruit training, then go to the School of Infantry for more advanced combat training. Non-infantry Marines attend a 25 day course there, while Marine infantry go to a 45 day Infantry Training Battalion course. British infantry do train longer than US Marine infantry, but not twice as long.

    >>West German training was also of a very high quality, to such an extent that some military >>authorities regarded West German training as superior to British, French, or American.

    The Soviets certainly regarded it as better than US training. In Soviet wargames, West German troops were rated a 1.0, while US troops were rated only a 0.80 in comparative effectiveness.

    Back to the real topic: does anyone know how many rounds Russian troops fire in training, and what the rifle marksmanship standards are to successfully pass out of training? (Rounds required to hit, ranges, targets used, time allowed to aim, etc.)

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