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    Russian Infantry Training

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    medo

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  medo on Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:41 pm

    Any information, how is going on a new training facility building after sanctions from EU and Germany is stopping its building? There was some reports, that Transas will finish it. By original it should be already finished. How much time will Transas need to complete the work?
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  VladimirSahin on Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:24 am

    Asf, We usually operated with one team of 6 and sometimes split up like you said into 2 teams of 3.  It all depended on situation for example if we were to move into a area we would leave one team of 3 behind containing a machine-gunner, A squad leader and sometimes GL. While the other team moves into the area to secure it.  While I'm at it let me tell you a bit more.

    Our training was pretty hard, We wake up  very early and first 5 days it was 3 minutes to dress up when getting ready for day but after that they dropped it to 1 minute and 45 seconds we were to dress up in full uniform.  If we didn't we would get a punch or two or made to do extra labor.  We would run for 3-5 kilometers I don't know why they would increase it from 3 km but they did.

    Our weapons training was one of my favorite,  We were all given AK-74Ms and then single shot targets at 50 to 150 meters(or maybe more but I dont remember) I had pretty good aim hit my target 6 out of 6 (Increase of rounds per shooting were increased the more we got trained).  I was trained to shoot RPG-7, I hit my first shot but missed my second during my first shooting. scratch  

    Training to pack up our parachutes was the most aggravating, We were taught how to make our parachutes perfectly like 2 weeks before our jump, So that by the time we get to the real jump we would perfect our skills.  I have made around 15 jumps all of them in IL-76 except for one in a AN-22.

    I will give more information as you guys ask so feel free to ask any question. thumbsup
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    Regular

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Regular on Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:58 am

    I'm interested in squad leader training You can get in Russian army. How many modules and courses are there long does it take to get it? 
    What about leadership and what qualities are being looked at and how independand SL's are? Where I can read current documentation as I do have hundreds of pages of Lithuanian army one (Rewritten NATO manuals mostly)

    Asf

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Asf on Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:04 pm

    Training to pack up our parachutes was the most aggravating

    Strange, I've heard, soldiers aren't supposed to pack their own parachutes now.

     ask so feel free to ask any question

    Look, I'm interested in new FOC of parachute company/batallion. What did your company include? Was a heavy weapons squad included?

    Asf

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Asf on Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:28 pm

    Where I can read current documentation

    Nowhere, most likely, as it has 'for service purpose only' mark, unlike NATO instructions.

    Asf

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Asf on Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:09 pm

     How many modules and courses are there long does it take to get it? 

    Link


    Contract soldier training:

    1 level - basic training

    1 stage - basic combat training (6 weeks)

    2 stage - speciality training (3 - 10 months)

    2 level - squad-level training (at least 3 months)
    Requirements: age, health, educational level, professional level, physical shape, discipline level, at least 1 year of contract service, leadership (must be a psychological requirement)

    3 level - platoon-level NCO training (up to 3 months)
    ect.

    It can be a bit outdated info (seems to be Serdukov's era information - goverment web-pages are all suffer from bad administration)
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  VladimirSahin on Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:12 pm

    Asf,

    My company included a Recon squad, a Heavy Weapons squad, assault squads, and we even had a dedicated sniper squad but I think they were in recon category.  We had a Shoulder Launched AA squad, And a Heavy Anti Tank squad. Keep in mind it has been 2 years since I have finished my service, I may forget some stuff so sorry for any mistakes.

    About the parachutes, We are assigned in groups to make our parachutes while the commander oversees us making it to make sure we dont mess up or just help us make it.

    Asf

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Asf on Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:08 am

    My company included a Recon squad


    Wow, never heard of a company with a recon squad. Good decision imho. Or you meant a recon platoon in your batallion, as


    a Shoulder Launched AA squad, And a Heavy Anti Tank squad

    is obviously a batallion-level assets


    so sorry for any mistakes

    Nevermind
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  VladimirSahin on Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:53 pm

    I believe it was in our company, Because the recon squad was stationed with us.  Whatever military drills we did they would follow company commander's orders.

    Asf

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Asf on Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:48 am

    Nice article about the resent Naval Infantry of Pacific Fleet drills with lots of pics here

    Some translations (only the most interesting, sorry):

    Naval Infanrty brigade of Pasific Fleet training took place on Khasan district shores

    2. Firstly Su-24MR tactical recon aircrafts came from the seaside, and an air strike took place on a recon group's call.

    3. The pathfinders landed from 3000 meters using special parachute systems to prepare the landing site for the main force of tactical desant.

    8. Having entered the fire fight they continued the target acquisition mission for the air strikes.

    9. The drills were the final part of the year test for Pacific Fleet naval infantrymen. Previously 'black berets' did some training landings on different training sites. The main feature of this drills was in a combined landing: an air-assault company and a mortar battary landed on the landing site from the above. It was they who took the enemy fire at the first place.

    12. Tactical desant is on the way

    13. First echelon of air-assault naval infantrymen opened fire before they reached the ground

    17. An-26s dropped mortars and mortar ammunition upon the last approach

    21. UAV was used to supervise the situation during trainings

    22. 'Polite people' ( Rolling Eyes )

    24. UAV operator

    25. Mortarmen of the air-assault battalion is ready to open fire on command.

    27. Another feature of the drills was the usage of marine aviation in support of the landing. Ka-52 Alligators were used.

    30. Engineer recon group is going to the shore on landing ships

    33. First echelon of naval infantry is ready for the landing

    34. 'Admiral Nevelskoy' is right after them

    36. Combat engeneers is landing in the spearhead

    38. Shmel-armed troopers is covering their advance

    49. BTR-mounted air-assault company has reformed into the combat formation

    52. 'Nikolai Vilkov' landing ship appeared with the second echelon forces.

    61. BMP-mounted naval infantry is entering the combat.

    62. 'Peresvet' landing ship is ready to land the troops in another bay

    65. Another air-assault company is going by the sea

    78. The drills ended after the sunset

    Colonel Andrei Borodin, chief of the Shore forces of Pacific Fleet: "During the trainings the combat for landing site was shown, it is the most complex part of marine desant operation. Air-assault batallion of 155th brigade as a part of air-sea assault detachment was capturing the landing site. Batallion earned 'good' (e.g. 'B') grade"


    19 ships, 20 airplanes and 5 helicopters took part in the drills.
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    Regular

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Regular on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:28 am

    Thanks for the post Asf. Nice drills Russia is having. Very high level of tactics involved. Really shows how puny infantry is in this terrain. I wish more guided weapons would be involved when it comes to air power. Never seen it being used.
    But I've heard that they are training with dumb ones because smart bomb attack can be simulated by not even having bomb at all. I've been told by one source that AF practices hitting targets on their own cities, factories, bridges and etc.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:28 am

    But I've heard that they are training with dumb ones because smart bomb attack can be simulated by not even having bomb at all. I've been told by one source that AF practices hitting targets on their own cities, factories, bridges and etc.

    With certain upgrades the Su-24 can deliver dumb bombs with the accuracy of guided weapons... the new upgraded aircraft have a bomb aiming marker that shows where any dumb bombs that might be dropped will hit and it is continuously calculated and has reasonably good accuracy as long as there is no return fire.

    When there is return fire obviously there are guided bombs and missiles that will do the same job from much greater stand off distances, but it is like navigation... if you can use a compass and map and a watch to plot a course to find a target and hit it and then fly home then you are well able to perform your mission even if the GLONASS fails.


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    Asf

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Asf on Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:25 am

    Some photos of VDV troops from SREM-2014 (Serbia)






    From Twower's blog
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  kvs on Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:00 am

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/57274/



    The training center abandoned by Rheinmetall has been completed without them.

    Nice. russia
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    sweartome123

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  sweartome123 on Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:37 am

    1. What is the training like for soldiers in the Russian military? How does it compare to US and NATO training?
    2. Is gun safety taught in the Russian military?

    From the hundreds of videos and photographs that I've seen, gun safety in the Russian military is a rare sight. Basic stuff like trigger discipline and muzzle safety is virtually non-existent. Poor gun safety is excessive even among Russia's most capable troops (VDV/Naval Infantry). What does this say about Russian military training in general if its spearhead forces can't even demonstrate the most basic of gun safety? For one, it's extremely dangerous not to practice it. Secondly, it's just flat out embarrassing to see in such a rapidly advancing military. This lax attitude towards firearms safety needs to be fixed.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:08 am

    Funny... asking questions and then having a rant before you have heard the answers... sounds a little like the answers don't matter to you?

    BTW bad trigger discipline happens everywhere... do you really want us to post western special forces with fingers on triggers with targets not in sight?



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    sweartome123

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  sweartome123 on Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:Funny... asking questions and then having a rant before you have heard the answers... sounds a little like the answers don't matter to you?

    BTW bad trigger discipline happens everywhere... do you really want us to post western special forces with fingers on triggers with targets not in sight?


    I'm not ranting. I simply asked two questions and added my thoughts in regards to them.

    "BTW bad trigger discipline happens everywhere... do you really want us to post western special forces with fingers on triggers with targets not in sight?"

    This is irrelevant. I'm talking about gun safety in the Russian military, not anyone else. I don't care what is done or not done in the west.

    It's just bothersome to see such widespread disregard for gun safety at the core of Russia's forces. Gun safety isn't a problem with more elite units like the military police, scouts, and special forces. It's a problem with your standard soldier. With Russia being an increasingly modern and professional military, I just don't understand why poor gun safety is so frequent. Gun safety is a smart measure that helps prevent needless injury or death and therefore needs to taken seriously.
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    Regular

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:18 am

    Trigger discipline is pretty new thing in Russian military.
    Russia is bit lagging regards all the procedures, but I'm not sure if You are aware, but Russian NCO corps are getting bigger, more professional and more demanding. There are more and more videos and pictures of soldiers who follow this discipline. Russian army is still mixed bag when it comes training. AFAIK in some armies You get penalties for unintentional weapon discharge, I hope it is the same in Russian army too Smile Would keep those fingers in place.
    And yeah, look at this, pointing weapon at Your buddy or Your buddies getting into Your cover zone..

    It's not only gun safety, but tactics that needs to be improved. But they will get there, don't You worry.
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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  OminousSpudd on Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:33 am

    sweartome123 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Funny... asking questions and then having a rant before you have heard the answers... sounds a little like the answers don't matter to you?

    BTW bad trigger discipline happens everywhere... do you really want us to post western special forces with fingers on triggers with targets not in sight?


    I'm not ranting. I simply asked two questions and added my thoughts in regards to them.

    "BTW bad trigger discipline happens everywhere... do you really want us to post western special forces with fingers on triggers with targets not in sight?"

    This is irrelevant. I'm talking about gun safety in the Russian military, not anyone else. I don't care what is done or not done in the west.

    It's just bothersome to see such widespread disregard for gun safety at the core of Russia's forces. Gun safety isn't a problem with more elite units like the military police, scouts, and special forces. It's a problem with your standard soldier. With Russia being an increasingly modern and professional military, I just don't understand why poor gun safety is so frequent. Gun safety is a smart measure that helps prevent needless injury or death and therefore needs to taken seriously.

    You certainly have a valid point. I think we tend to jump the gun a bit ourselves around here when critique appears to single out Russia with little regard for its nearest equivalents. Gun safety in most militaries is utterly abysmal and it's only due to safeties themselves that a lot of FF casualties are avoided. That being said, Russian Forces could and are improving steadily as Regular noted.

    Seeing US forces in the field on countless videos with their fingers glued to their triggers is a tad more scary, as these guys are actually in combat, whereas most Russian gun related mishaps occur on the training grounds. The blasè attitude behind American grunts has always been there and always will be from the looks of things, but this should not reflect on the level of discipline in the Russian Army.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:21 am

    I'm not ranting. I simply asked two questions and added my thoughts in regards to them.

    Your thoughts were answers to the questions you asked... why bother asking if you are providing the answers yourself?

    This is irrelevant. I'm talking about gun safety in the Russian military, not anyone else. I don't care what is done or not done in the west.

    Of course... Russia must live up to ideal western standards of practise but for goodness sake don't expect western equivalents to come close to those standards... do you work for the US State Department by any chance.... Smile

    Why is gun safety only important in the Russian military?

    Or in this discussion can we only look at problems for the Russian military in isolation and separate from everything else?

    It's just bothersome to see such widespread disregard for gun safety at the core of Russia's forces. Gun safety isn't a problem with more elite units like the military police, scouts, and special forces. It's a problem with your standard soldier. With Russia being an increasingly modern and professional military, I just don't understand why poor gun safety is so frequent. Gun safety is a smart measure that helps prevent needless injury or death and therefore needs to taken seriously.

    Gun safety needs to be taken more seriously by everyone, but my limited views of documentaries of Western forces in Afghanistan and Iraq it seems that gun safety becomes less of a priority in combat, but then that is common for many traditions... look at western claims of marksmanship.... single shots for everything yet most footage I have seen of US and British troops shows firing in bursts at often unseen targets. So much for accuracy the west prides itself in...

    Lots of important stuff from the manual goes out the window when the shooting starts... and not just Russian manuals.



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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:39 am

    Soldiers in Crimea had good trigger discipline, even when their mags where out. Look it up on pictures. Says something about BSF marines. Very professional soldiers, day and night difference from 58th army guys.
    It's not russian army, but look at separatist instructors(I think they are advisors from Russian military so take it as You wish) in DNR,LNR who trained militia firing drills. Trigger discipline, combat movement, sector coverage and etc. Those drills looked more practical than I did in NATO army.
    Look at Motorola and his weapon handling. He has russian military background.
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    1. What is the training like for soldiers in the Russian military? How does it compare to US and NATO training?

    Post  Regular on Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:09 am

    Lots of important stuff from the manual goes out the window when the shooting starts... and not just Russian manuals
    True, but that's why You drill it into instinct. Vetted guys handle battle stress very well. Videos from Ukraine or Chechnya when guys do everything by the book could be used as an example.
    I personally never seen combat, but got shot at few times. First time after me and my best army friend messed up in movement and we were supressed by our own MG. It pretty much paralyzed me as bullets were wizzing few meters past us to the target groups. Tracers could be seen, but I could't look back, it realy disoriented me. It has nothing to do with courage, You simply don't know how to react.
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    Sanctus Ferri

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    Re: Russian Infantry Training

    Post  Sanctus Ferri on Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:50 am

    >>I've heard from so called experts on other games and weapons forums that soviet mechanized infantry had completely inferior training to all their NATO nation counterparts due to being conscripted and the AK-74, RPK-74 and PKM all supposedly being less accurate than the m60, G3, L1A1, FAMAS, MG3, NF1,etc. Is this true?
    >>

    You can't really lump all those weapons together and make a valid comparison. However, I can offer you some specific examples where the accuracy argument does not hold:

    The M16 series, firing an M855 is ballistically less accurate (has a larger dispersion pattern fired from a bench and clamp) than an AK-74 firing any of the standard Soviet/Russian issue cartridges. The only advantage the M16 has is a longer sight radius, something that the AK-12 corrects, and which is in any case becoming less relevant as optical sights come into common use.

    While this has been corrected with the issue of the M855A1 and Mk.318, etc, which are between 1.5 and 4 times more accurate than M855 depending on lots compared, it remains to be seen if these accuracy standards will be maintained. The US government accuracy specification for M855 had to be lowered by 50% when the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were getting under way. Available manufacturers could not simultaneously meet military demand and maintain the original accuracy standard.

    The US has greatly reduced it's manufacturing capability since the height of the Cold War, and you can assume that if called upon to fight a major war with a vaguely peer opponent, the volume of production required by combat would cause a marked lowering of standards across the board in weapons systems and especially ammunition.

    The L85, firing the British version of the SS109 is also less ballistically accurate than the AK-74 and it's service cartridges. The reputation the L85 has for accuracy comes from it's SUSAT sight, which was issued at a time when most infantryman did not get optical sights. The basic weapon and cartridge, without a human operator and 4x scope, is less accurate than the L1A1 it replaced. Put an equivalent sight on an AK-74 and you get a slightly more accurate weapon than an L85.

    The FN Minimi, AKA the M249 SAW is horribly inaccurate. When the USMC conducted trials a few years back to evaluate potential replacements, the M249 was considerably outperformed by the Colt HBAR, Ultimax and G36 in this role, which led to the eventual adoption of the M27 to replace or supplement it at the squad level. In terms of dispersion, a plain old 1947 original AK clearly outperforms the M249, having half the dispersion.

    Although individual rounds vary in exact length and shape, and therefore accuracy, the 7.62x54mm Russian is, generally speaking, a longer and more aerodynamic (and therefore more accurate) cartridge than the 7.62x51mm NATO. While various western nations have designed some extremely accurate weapons for the 7.62 NATO (M40, M24 SWS, HK.21), there is absolutely nothing preventing Russia from fielding an equally or more accurate weapon, which, (having not seen the accuracy specifications of Russia's newer sniper rifles), they may already have done.

    >>High rate of fire = loads of wasted ammo...For example new HK machine guns have lower firing rates.
    >>

    That depends on the training of the operator. In theory, if you have two otherwise identical weapons fire the same number of bullets in a burst, the one with the higher cyclic rate will experience less muzzle rise by the time the bullets have left the barrel, and therefore obtain a tighter dispersion pattern. It simply requires that the gunner have sufficient skill to tightly control their bursts. Germans have historically placed more trust in the skill of their troops than other NATO countries. HK's newer guns are designed to appeal to a larger audience than the Bundeswehr (which buys things in ever smaller quantities as it's size and budget shrinks), hence they follow the pattern of more widely used MGs.

    The US, by contrast, has historically treated it's lower enlisted ranks like hapless children who needed to be constantly managed and have their hands held, which is why for the 2 decades between the issue of the M16A2 and M4A1 the US was the only nation in NATO whose standard infantry rifle did not possess fully automatic capability (with the British having switched to thee L85 two years after the M16A2 was introduced.)

    >>That said, US/NATO basic training was typically longer, anywhere from 2-3 times longer. The British have some of the longest basic training, at least they do these days... Indeed Britain's basic training is about 2 times longer than America's longest basic training... Basic training for the >>Royal Army is about 6.5 months long, compared with 13 weeks for the US Marine Corps. If you want to be in the infantry of the Royal Army, your basic training is about 26 weeks long, at least today.
    >>

    That's not quite right. First, a month averages 4.3 weeks, not 4.0 so the 26 week Combat Infantryman's Course is almost exactly 6 months, not 6.5. Second, the British do their basic and advanced infantry training together. The USMC does not.

    US Army infantry training, which, like the British Army, combines basic and infantry specialist training into one course, is only 13 weeks and 3 days, about half as long as the British version. US Marines, after completing their 13 week recruit training, then go to the School of Infantry for more advanced combat training. Non-infantry Marines attend a 25 day course there, while Marine infantry go to a 45 day Infantry Training Battalion course. British infantry do train longer than US Marine infantry, but not twice as long.

    >>West German training was also of a very high quality, to such an extent that some military >>authorities regarded West German training as superior to British, French, or American.

    The Soviets certainly regarded it as better than US training. In Soviet wargames, West German troops were rated a 1.0, while US troops were rated only a 0.80 in comparative effectiveness.

    Back to the real topic: does anyone know how many rounds Russian troops fire in training, and what the rifle marksmanship standards are to successfully pass out of training? (Rounds required to hit, ranges, targets used, time allowed to aim, etc.)

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