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    Russian-French military cooperation

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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:46 am

    T-90M wasn't just for export just as the T-90S wasn't just for export. It is the upgrade for the T-90. There is no motion forward on Burlak so we can just drop that subject. What MoD is looking for is a comprehensive upgrade of the T-90 that brings it to the latest standards and does it quickly. MIC has nothing in electronics to bridge this gap which is why we are spending so much time talking to the French.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:17 am

    One more confirmation article :

    Russia to hold talks with France on purchasing artillery navigation system

    RIA Novosti

    09:47 30/06/2010

    PARIS/MOSCOW, June 30 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Defense Ministry will hold talks during an international engineering forum near Moscow with France's Sagem Defense Securite on the possible purchase of a Sigma 30 inertial navigation system.

    The Engineering Technologies International Forum 2010 will be held from June 30 through July 4 in the town of Zhukovsky, 40 kilometers southeast of Moscow.

    Earlier this month, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin invited the French-based Sagem company (SAFRAN group), a European leader in defense and consumer electronics, for talks in Moscow.

    Popovkin said Russia is interested in purchasing the Sigma 30 artillery navigation and pointing system as part of efforts to modernize its Smerch and Grad multiple rocket launchers.

    "We are ready to offer Russia the Sigma 30 system for the modernization of the Russian artillery and multiple rocket launchers," a Sagem spokesman told RIA Novosti.

    He said Sagem delivers Sigma systems to a wide range of Russian military manufacturers, including Sukhoi.

    "There is a demand for the latest navigation and pointing systems because the firing range of the modernized multiple rocket launchers like the Grad has risen from 40 to 50-60 kilometers and fire control systems therefore also need to be modernized," the spokesman said.

    The Sigma 30 artillery navigation and pointing system is designed for high-precision firing at short notice.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2010/russia-100630-rianovosti05.htm
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:04 am

    The Russian Army is supposed to have bought the tank simulators for the Burlak (Barge Hauler) program, that is the basis for the speculation that it is still "live".
    If the purpose of Burlak was to improve the performance of the tanks in Russian Service and there was no money then I could understand not spending it for now and then looking at the problem in 5-10 years.
    The Burlak upgrade however should actually simplify logistics and training as well as remove lots of old stuff from the Armoury, which is something politicians have been harping on about for some time.
    From other "deals" like those with Thales of France, it is clear that if they decide to go with French and German designs they will certainly put them in the design, but they wont just buy them all from France and Germany, they might buy 500-1000 units of whatever they want, like engines and transmissions, and thermal sights, and radios, and land battle management system, but that will only be the first 500-1000... the rest will be built under licence in Russia for the remaining 5-6 thousand tanks.

    If the French or German component is markedly superior to the Russian equivelent in the Burlak upgrade then replace the Russian component with the French or German component and have the maker of the Russian component the licence producer of that French or German component. The Russian producer will get a factory upgrade and be trained to make the new component the French or German way.

    This is all normal and fine.

    Look at WWII, the most numerous Soviet fighter was the I-16 Polikarpov with a licence produced M-22 and M-25 engines based on the old Bristol Jupiter engine. The Mikulin M-17 engine was a licence produced BMW engine that was used in bombers like the Tupolev TB-3 as well as tanks like the BT-7 and the T-28.
    There are aircraft still used today like the An-2 that use licence produced engines, the ASh-62 based on the Wright Cyclone.
    The point is that at the time they wanted a good engine and they paid a fair price for it and they got a deal to make these engines in Russia. They then took the new technology and started modifying it to suite their needs and their available materials etc, and also improving the design, sometimes sticking to a design that works (the engine on the An-2 is simple and easy to fix... you could replace it with a modern engine to get better range or speed, but the simplicity is more valuable than the fuel you would save in the middle of Siberia on a rough strip.).

    The issue seems to be pride and if you want your armed forces properly equipped then you can't afford pride.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Russian Army is supposed to have bought the tank simulators for the Burlak (Barge Hauler) program, that is the basis for the speculation that it is still "live".

    Why would they buy simulators before they induct the platform?

    If the purpose of Burlak was to improve the performance of the tanks in Russian Service and there was no money then I could understand not spending it for now and then looking at the problem in 5-10 years.

    We can't wait 5-10 years. We are spending the money in the next two which is why France and Germany are the only source of technology.

    The Burlak upgrade however should actually simplify logistics and training as well as remove lots of old stuff from the Armoury, which is something politicians have been harping on about for some time.

    T-90 and T-72 already share standardisation, don't need Burlak for that.

    From other "deals" like those with Thales of France, it is clear that if they decide to go with French and German designs they will certainly put them in the design, but they wont just buy them all from France and Germany, they might buy 500-1000 units of whatever they want, like engines and transmissions, and thermal sights, and radios, and land battle management system, but that will only be the first 500-1000... the rest will be built under licence in Russia for the remaining 5-6 thousand tanks.

    There isn't going to be an upgrade of 5-6 thousand tanks. The storage tanks will sit as is. The 2200 front-line tanks are those going to be upgraded. I doubt they will even get around to upgrading many T-72s. If we can stop exporting T-90 we can have the full lot number after 2017.

    If the French or German component is markedly superior to the Russian equivelent in the Burlak upgrade then replace the Russian component with the French or German component and have the maker of the Russian component the licence producer of that French or German component. The Russian producer will get a factory upgrade and be trained to make the new component the French or German way.

    Then it doesn't make it a Burlak upgrade now does it. Rolling Eyes



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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:57 am

    Why would they buy simulators before they induct the platform?

    I don't know for sure but would speculate that if a simulator has been developed already then they have been properly funded so far and for the Army to adopt them suggests the simulators do the job of training soldiers to drive tanks without actually taking tanks out and wearing them out.
    The small production numbers right now suggest to me that they are just trickling the T-90 into service while its final production upgrade is being perfected... it seems that what they have developed so far is not satisfactory to some, but an upgrade and final production model will be developed... they can't just continue with what they have, especially now that the T-95 has lost funding too.
    As it is now it has faults and the purpose of Burlak is to fix as many of those faults and introduce modern features like battle management systems and turret bustle autoloaders and new ERA that was developed a while ago but hasn't been used yet on a Russian tank.
    It gets stuff into service that has been in development for a while and that is a good thing.

    We can't wait 5-10 years. We are spending the money in the next two which is why France and Germany are the only source of technology.

    So you want to throw out the existing solution and the next gen tank and just buy bits from France and Germany?
    The stuff from Germany is just light armour.
    Very simply if you make a light armoured vehicle from steel you start getting problems because if you can only have x kgs of weight for the armour then steel armour can get rather thin. All of a sudden it is not thick enough to take a rough ride across country so one solution is to use lighter material like Aluminium.
    Al is so light you can have a sheet 30mm thick where with steel a 5mm sheet weighs the same. The problem is that a 5mm thick sheet of steel is not strong enough structurally when you are bouncing across country in a 15 ton vehicle and you get hull cracks and structural failure. That means you need to build a superstructure that you fit the sheet steel armour to, which makes the vehicle much heavier without adding protection.
    With Al armour, or even composite material, because it is so light you can use lots of layers or much thicker sheets so the armour can be the hull of the vehicle and all the components can be hung off that. It makes the vehicle lighter.
    What Germany has is a way of making sheet armour that is light and yet thick and strong enough to use as both armour and structure for the vehicle it is used on.
    The only deal will be a maker of armour in Russia will licence produce the new German armour for light vehicles and then that will be used in new light armour in Russia, for example the BTR-90 is going to get a makeover no doubt where the engine will likely be moved to the front so rear hull doors can be added. It will probably get new thicker German light armour for better protection without dramatically increasing weight.

    BTW from what I have read they really don't want to spend money on tanks and will be giving away lots and disposing of a lot more.

    With the transition to military districts we might see forces being equipped to suit their location, with mostly tracked vehicles in the more rugged areas and more wheeled vehicles in the western areas.

    T-90 and T-72 already share standardisation, don't need Burlak for that.

    The only thing the T-72 and the T-90 have in common is that they were made in the same factory. The T-90 is a cheap and cheerful T-72 with its guts ripped out and replaced with state of the art stuff as used in the T-80 so that it could compete with said vehicle.
    The T-72s in service will have a different gun, different engines, different wheels and tracks, different FCS etc etc even the ERA is different between models, and if you want a net centric army then you need digital battle management systems and good navigation and communications systems in all your vehicles.
    Even the BTR-82/-82A s are getting new navigation and communications stuff and new fire control systems that apparently includes time fused 30mm shells similar to the ANIET system for the 125mm HE rounds.

    There isn't going to be an upgrade of 5-6 thousand tanks. The storage tanks will sit as is. The 2200 front-line tanks are those going to be upgraded. I doubt they will even get around to upgrading many T-72s. If we can stop exporting T-90 we can have the full lot number after 2017.

    After freeing up the cost of storing and maintaining 20,000 tanks the cost of 6,000 tanks will be much easier to manage. Upgrading them to the same standard to share the same parts will make it cheaper to own and use them. Just upgrading the 2,200 that you use will be a pain in the butt when it comes time to actually get a few out of storage only to find the ERA it used is no longer in production and the HE inserts for the stuff used in the 2,200 operational vehicles doesn't fit, or that there are no spares for the engines of the vehicles in storage etc etc.
    It doesn't need to be done all at once, but gradually all of the tanks in storage should be given periodic overhauls where standardised equipment should be added.
    This would be the easiest and cheapest way to standardise the equipment and to take advantage of large production runs.

    Then it doesn't make it a Burlak upgrade now does it.

    It was never set in stone. It could be argued that the Burlak upgrade has already incorporated elements of the Black Eagle mockup with its turret bustle autoloader anyway. The point is that they need an upgrade that can become a new production standard for future T-90s and to apply to the tanks you are going to keep.
    It certainly already included French thermal sights licence produced in Russia, if it now adds communications, navigation, FCS, and other products of Thales then I would guess that was because they were better than those used in Burlak originally... and that is a good thing. I have read that lots of components of Burlak were foreign anyway but there were problems with supply where components were substandard and the designers were making their own substitute parts. It might be that some parts were coming from traditional suppliers of components for Soviet tanks, ie from Belarus or the Ukraine or whereever. Now it seems they will come from France... it only makes the T-90 better.
    What I don't want to see is the T-90 left as it is trickling into service, T-95 cancelled and nothing to replace the T-90 and the mighty Russian tank industry reduced to a production workshop for French tank designs.
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    Vladimir79

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    Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:41 am

    Thales has signed an agreement with Ural Optics for the production of military equipment
    16.07.2010 // 11:13



    YEKATERINBURG, July 16 . (ITAR-TASS ) . The French company Thales , on Thursday as part of the VI International exhibition of technical means " Defence Expo -2010 " , which takes place in the Sverdlovsk region on July 14-17 , has signed an agreement with Ural Optical Mechanical Plant ( Federal State Unitary Enterprise ) on the commencement of military and civil engineering . Said the deputy general director Anatoly UOMZ Sludnyh .

    "Thereafter, the parties will be concluded several contracts , which provides for several areas of cooperation - laser technology in medicine and the national economy, thermal imaging devices for the national economy , opto- electronic systems, sights for small arms. We plan to arrange the delivery of French technology in the Urals, and , conversely , the export of equipment of Russian origin in France , " - explained Sludnyh .

    The exhibition "Defense and Security " held in Nizhny Tagil every two years , alternating with the International exhibition of arms . This year it is attended by over 250 Russian and foreign companies. As part of the exhibition presents more than two thousand full-scale exhibits . To work at the site " Miner " registered more than 200 representatives from 36 countries.

    Thales - the world leader in aviation , aerospace and defense industries , and markets security systems and transportation systems. In 2008, the profit " Thales was 12.7 billion euros . The company employs 68 thousand employees in 50 countries, of which 25 thousand - the engineers and developers.

    http://arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=86497&cid=25
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:07 am

    Makes Sense.
    If you are spending a large wad of cash on thermal imager production technology from France you might as well use that on as many different platforms and systems as you can.
    Thermal imagers are not cheap, though the best way to make them cheaper is to order them in large blocks.
    Thermal imagers are not weapons in themselves but they add capability to weapons and systems they are attached to. Whether it is rifles or machine guns, or tanks and air defence equipment, thermal sights increase effectiveness by making the system it is added to capable of operating in the dark, in bad weather, or under certain conditions like dust or smoke where normal performance would be severely degraded.
    When used with aircraft in certain types of pods they can combine to change a 20th century recon plane into a 21st century recon plane by replacing wet film systems with digital datalinks able to handle real time still photos and video of the target area, or in the case of the Damocles pod it could simply be fitted to the centreline of a Su-25 to give it the all weather capabilities of the Su-25TM but without the cost in a pod that can be shared amongst many aircraft.
    We plan to arrange the delivery of French technology in the Urals, and , conversely , the export of equipment of Russian origin in France , " - explained Sludnyh .
    So the stuff will be made in Russia, and some of it will be exported back to France, so Thales France can take advantage of lower manufacturing costs in Russia and the Russian factory will likely increase production numbers further, which should make costs lower still.
    No doubt further orders for Thales thermal sights might result in cheaper equipment made in Russia sold by Thales of France to third parties with no doubt Thales benefiting from either lower cost product selling better or they could take a larger cut for profits and offer the customer the same price. I would expect they might do a little of both with a slightly higher profit but also reduced price to consumer.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:13 pm

    Damocles targetting pod costs almost as much as an Su-25. It won't be going on that platform. It is for the new Flankers.

    So it finally comes down to it that all of those thermal rifle sights we have been toughting at the trade shows is not going to be purchased. This is the final nail in the coffin of the domestic design of optics in the Russian Federation. France now monopolises this industry.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:09 am

    I think you are missing the point of such pods.
    Without the pod you can send a dumb daylight only Su-25 with largely unguided weapons.
    You will need to send in quite a few, with some attacking the primary targets while others fly above and try to locate where the ground fire is coming from and neutralise it.
    They will all suffer if the enemy is well equipped with MANPADs.
    With a pod you can send in half as many Su-25s to engage the target and hit that target with guided weapons even those of the previous generation like Kh-25 and Kh-29 will allow standoff ranges of 10km which means that those Su-25s can be out of range of MANPADS near the target.
    It also means they can attack at night which also reduces the effectiveness of ground fire.
    The aircraft supporting them can still do so looking for enemy radars and using ARMs to protect the group and rocket pod loaded decoy rockets in case of MANPADs attack.
    The point is that you can have dumb cheap aircraft that you will need lots of, or you can spend a fortune on the TM upgrade, or you can spend less and buy a dozen pods for use within one district to share between 100 aircraft and make them all potentially as capable as an expensive upgraded all weather aircraft when in fact they can all be the cheap upgraded aircraft SM.
    The new Flankers probably wont need Damocles pods because they already have most of the functions offered by the pod built in. The new Mig-35s certainly already do.
    I would think such pods would be most used on strike and CAS missions which should mean Su-34 and Su-25s and Su-24s will be using them. Perhaps even Tu-22M3s too if they can sort out the engine issues. (For the latter I think the Tu-160 could do with a brand new engine and that it should be designed so that it can be used in both the Tu-160 and Tu-22M3 based on the engine technology that has been developed since their engines entered service. Both engines are still impressive even now for power and fuel efficiency.)
    So it finally comes down to it that all of those thermal rifle sights we have been toughting at the trade shows is not going to be purchased. This is the final nail in the coffin of the domestic design of optics in the Russian Federation. France now monopolises this industry.
    I disagree. Several examples of the SPARROW AAM were captured in Vietnam and a Soviet variant was developed by a Soviet design bureau. When it came time to compete to make the new AAM for the Mig-23 the AA-4 Awl was competing with the R-23 and lost. It just happened that the R-23 was superior to the replica of the SPARROW. The R-23 entered service as the AA-7 Apex and was later improved as the R-24 with improved performance. When an early model Sidewinder was captured in China things were different. The Soviet equivelent was the AA-1 Alkali and it was a complex missile with a tail cone for a datalink to the launch aircraft to guide it and side angled rocket motor exhausts and inside was a mess of servo motors and electronics and explosive and propellent all carefully balanced so the centre of gravity didn't effect manouver capability. The Sidewinder on the other hand was modular and basic. You could seperate all the components and from the front you had the seeker, then the servo motors for the nose canards, then the warhead, and then the rocket body then at the rear you had large wings and rollerons and at the very rear the engine exhaust.
    The rocket wasn't more powerful than Soviet rockets and the IR seeker wasn't better than Soviet IR seekers but the whole concept of breaking all the parts down to seperate modules made production and maintainence much simpler and easier. If a sidewinder had a faulty rocket motor you just popped the other bits off and attached them to a new motor. With an AA-1 you pretty much threw away the missile because the complexity of removing the rocket and replacing it meant completely taking it apart.
    The reason the Soviets copied the Sidewinder was because it was so simple it was a great new way to make missiles. They new that the time it would take for the new modular design to filter through the design bureaus it would be some time before they got new weapons based on this design into service, so they copied the basic design and used Soviet components where possible. They used a Soviet seeker, a Soviet rocket motor, but they found the roll stabilisation system used by the Americans was much smaller and simpler than their own so they copied that too.
    The result was a foreign design in Soviet service much quicker than an equivelent Soviet design could have been developed.
    Strangely though the AA-1 design didn't die as the Kh-66 and Kh-25 series and even the AA-6 Acrid seem to have that external shape and design setup. Their need for a rear facing datalink pod required side angled rocket exhausts for propulsion.
    What am I dribbling on about?
    Well Russia has gotten a hold of some more western technology in the form of French thermal sights and found they are superior to sights made domestically. Not really a surprise considering the circumstances.
    The result is that a Russian company will now licence produce French designed thermal sights for a range of uses from aircraft, to tanks, to rifles and small arms. Note a thermal sight on an Igla makes it a very deadly weapon as many aircraft operate at night to reduce vulnerability (esp helos).
    As mentioned in the article above that licence production might even include production of material for export to France.
    This is good for Thales of France because lower production costs mean the opportunity to sell more.
    This is good for the Russian Armed forces because they get a better quality product.
    This is good for Russian MIC because they are getting factories with state of the art tooling and relatively new designs to build and work on, as well as the opportunity to work on new developments with Thales too.
    Look at the Rolls Royce Nene and Derwent engines that were sold to the Soviet Union.
    The first "licence produced versions" were similar, but later models got various improvements and changes and became Soviet engines.
    You say France now monopolises the Russian MIC industry with regard to thermal sights.
    Once production has started if a new government in France takes power can they take control and stop production of thermal sights in Russia?
    I would say no. And with no for the answer the next question is why should it matter that you currently get your new thermals from one source?
    My answer to that is that it would only matter if there was another source where you could get a better quality sight for less cost, and I don't think that is the case.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:09 am

    GarryB wrote:I think you are missing the point of such pods.

    It isn't me missing the point of such pods. It is you missing the point of cost and its use. Su-25s are a low value tactical asset. The pods are very expensive and being made for our high asset bombers and strike aircraft. That is its purpose. The Su-25 flies close enough that it doesn't need a high end FLIR pod. The bombers want the pod for stand-off range, the Su-25 can't even carry the new missiles this pod will be slaved to.

    I disagree. Several examples of the SPARROW AAM were captured in Vietnam and a Soviet variant was developed by a Soviet design bureau. When it came time to compete to make the new AAM for the Mig-23 the AA-4 Awl was competing with the R-23 and lost.

    The R-23 never had to compete against Western items so the comparison is irrelevant. Russian producers are not competing against one another in a closed market anymore. They are competing against France and their tech is a generation ahead. By the time we start producing 3rd gen optics of our own, they will be on to the 4th. It is exactly the same trap India has gotten itself into.

    What am I dribbling on about?

    You say France now monopolises the Russian MIC industry with regard to thermal sights.
    Once production has started if a new government in France takes power can they take control and stop production of thermal sights in Russia?
    I would say no. And with no for the answer the next question is why should it matter that you currently get your new thermals from one source?
    My answer to that is that it would only matter if there was another source where you could get a better quality sight for less cost, and I don't think that is the case.

    The answer to the question is of course they can. License production does not mean we make all of the components. We only make the cheap stuff while French factories make the expensive guts of the equipment. It is the same for all license production deals. Unless you buy the patent to an item you will not get the ToT needed to make it. So, we are left with reliance on the French. I do not believe they will cut us off unless we go to war with NATO which is not likely to happen. The worry is becoming like India where 70-80% of all equipment is imported. Our airlines and automotive already do that, defence is just the last step.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:12 am

    OK, let me rephrase what I said.
    You are missing the potential these pods offer.
    UAVs and UCAVs are all the rage these days because they offer sighting and attack options without risking a pilot.
    You are spending billions of dollars upgrading your armed forces... I presume you want to be able to fight 24/7?
    That would make the purchace and licence production of thermal imagers make good sense.
    Your current CAS is a daylight only aircraft... you are spending enormous amounts on making your helicopters night capable, how effectively will a daylight only Su-25 work with them?
    The attempt to make it day and night capable was the Su-25TM version which was deemed too expensive so the cheaper less extensive Su-25SM was accepted.
    Rather than spending hundreds of millions of dollars updating the entire Su-25 fleet to enable all weather capability you can buy 50 or so Damocles pods that can be used when needed. Not every aircraft needs a pod, and most of the time they may not need it at all. A cheaper simpler pod might be better suited, but the advantage such weapon pods offer is hard to ignore.
    The Su-25 can use laser and TV guided weapons already and it would not be too hard to integrate satellite guided bombs and rockets as low cost weapons against point targets found during missions.
    A ground controller could give the coordinates of the target holding up the (ground) attack and an Su-25 can send those coordinates to a missile under its wing... there are satellite guided versions of the Kh-38 so a GLONASS guided Kh-25 shouldn't be too hard. Once the pilot is within 10km or so he can launch the weapon and leave. Any MANPADS near the target will be ineffectual.
    To deploy MANPADs to defend a target you would have to anticipate the direction of attack and deploy 10 or more kms from the target... not easy.
    My point is that a Damocles pod is a force multiplier and only using it with Su-34s is like only using inflight refuelling tankers for your long range bombers.
    You are not going to have as many aircraft in the future so you are going to have to make the existing aircraft more capable along with your forces more mobile.
    Putting a Damocles pod on an Su-25 is cheaper than upgrading the Su-25 to do the job it needs to be able to do, and that is fight in all conditions.
    The bombers want the pod for stand-off range, the Su-25 can't even carry the new missiles this pod will be slaved to.
    I would think that eventually the Su-25 might get Hermes in the same way that the Su-25TM got Vikhr with 8 missiles per pylon for two pylons. As such the ability to spot targets 20km away or further would actually be quite useful.
    You are trying to westernise and upgrade your forces, so look at the A-10 getting upgrades and targetting pods and carrying lots of missiles like Maverick and Hellfire etc.
    They are competing against France and their tech is a generation ahead. By the time we start producing 3rd gen optics of our own, they will be on to the 4th.
    Your specialists have been twiddling their thumbs doing very little but talking for the last two decades. Now there is money they can start pushing the envelope themselves and learning for themselves.
    There is no reason why Russia should not be at the forefront of technology in this area in 5 years time.
    If France is a generation ahead then Russian specialists can use that to foresee the future. If the next generation seems to offer a leap in performance then skip this generation and start working on the next.
    Use French thermal technology now and work on new stuff.
    If I was designing a rifle I wouldn't start with a tube with one end blocked off with a touch hole drilled in the side. Your MIC won't either.
    The answer to the question is of course they can. License production does not mean we make all of the components. We only make the cheap stuff while French factories make the expensive guts of the equipment. It is the same for all license production deals. Unless you buy the patent to an item you will not get the ToT needed to make it. So, we are left with reliance on the French.
    Licence assembly means you put together components built elsewhere. Licence production means you build it yourself. They wouldn't have taken this long if it was just an assembly plant.
    Licence production is like Christies tank that was licence produced in the Soviet Union during the 1930s. They ended up changing it into the BT series tanks. They had to modify it to scale it up to use on the T-34, which they could do because they had a licence to produce using the design owned by Christie.
    The worry is becoming like India where 70-80% of all equipment is imported. Our airlines and automotive already do that, defence is just the last step.
    Ural optics has this contract to make thermal equipment for the Russian military market. During Soviet times the contract probably would have gone to a company in Belarus.
    I don't know of any country that designs all of its own stuff.
    The US doesn't even come close... The Abrams tank has British armour, a Geman gun, a Belgian coaxial machinegun. The US soldier has a Belgian side arm, a European light rocket launcher (AT4), and the US Marines are getting a new rifle from H&K I believe.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:50 pm

    There are far cheaper ways to make an Su-25 available for night attack than adding a targeting pod that costs about the same as the plane. Night vision HUD is what many currently use and is good enough for the strafing runs Su-25s are best at. There is a limit to how many all weather PG bombers we are going to have and it isn't going to be on something that cheap. Using the Su-25 as a recon tool is certainly not the goal, the goal is to have more UAVs. For the price of one Damocles you could buy two MALE UAVs with thier own laser designators. I would rather have a long loitering UAV targeting for the Su-25 than the Su-25 doing it itself.

    License production for this product does not include design engineering information and critical materials production. That is kept in France just as all deals are from the West. Copying Christie's design could have been done in a machine shop by any inventive person, it was not that complicated. Things are different today.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:21 am

    The cost in a Damocles pod is not the GPS receiver, it is the night vision equipment and long range zooming optics.
    To get something comparable to display a similar view in an Su-25s HUD (which would be like flying looking through a straw) would not be that much cheaper.
    A cheaper solution would probably be Sapsan or something.
    The real solution for Su-25TM was Shkval-M.
    The problem is that such an optronic system is not cheap and many operations simply don't require that level of performance.
    The Russian Armed forces already voted with their wallets by going for the Su-25SM instead of the TM, and went for a podded radar under the belly to achieve all weather day and night performance.
    My idea is to take the Kopyo radar from the belly position (which restricts its field of regard) to the nose position and replace the optics port in the nose (mostly laser range finder, marked target seeker, laser target designator port). This means it can spot moving targets at night but it can't use laser guided munitions except as a weapon carrier. Now if you want to use UAVs to mark targets that is fine but sometimes the Su-25 will need that capability itself and when it does a Sapsan pod or more expensive and more capable Damocles pod can be fitted to some aircraft in the belly position where its view up is not important.
    The radar would also make the aircraft more versatile and smaller airforces could use it as a small fighter/patrol aircraft.
    For the Su-34 I have heard rumours of a pod called Solluks.
    Have you heard anything about that?
    Of course there has also been talk of a pod called Platan, but that is built in and is not all weather capable.
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    Vladimir79

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    Russia may buy French UAVs - Serdyukov

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:07 pm


    Russia would be willing to purchase French spy drones, if successful, the deal with the "Mistral" - Serdyukov


    MOSCOW, September 8. Itar-Tass. If successful, a deal with helicopter "Mistral," the Russian defense ministry is ready to consider the proposals of the French side to supply unmanned aircraft and the development of military-technical cooperation in other areas, said Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov.

    "The French side expressed its wish to work in this area. We offered to do it in the form of joint ventures on the basis of our repair works. If we all get on the" Mistral "and we earn such an experience, then later it goes in other directions, in including by unmanned aerial vehicles. The relevant supply, we have "- Serdyukov told reporters following last Tuesday in Paris 1X meeting of the Council of the Russian-French cooperation on security issues at the level of foreign ministers and defense ministers of the two countries.

    On Tuesday following the meeting of the Council of the participants received the French president Nicolas Sarkozy. According to Serdyukov, during the meeting focused on "training the imminent meeting between Russia, France and Germany. "We talked about the situation in Afghanistan, about the possible purchase of Russian amphibious assault helicopter," - he said.

    As you know, France is proposing to buy Russian ships of this class type "Mistral". "The French do not conceal that they are interested in such cooperation. We are interested too," - said Serdyukov. According to his assessment. "The French are more interested in the military aspects of cooperation with Russia."

    The minister said that in the next two weeks, the military authorities of the two countries will create a High Level Working Group, which will prepare a plan of bilateral military cooperation in 2011. "During the talks in Paris, we agreed that in the next 15 days will be set up working groups to prepare military cooperation plan for 2011, which will be more intense compared with the current year - explained Serdyukov. - As part of these groups will be discussed and questions of military-technical cooperation. These groups will consist of the persons entitled to a certain extent, take some decisions, that is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces may be, their deputies. "I believe in the work of these groups likely will offer, in particular, to conduct joint exercises - said Serdyukov. - I'm sure we'll get to some, albeit minor, joint exercises, in particular, anti-piracy theme.

    The Minister also said that during talks in Paris and discussed the themes of defense. "The French have heard our estimation, they want work in this field - he said. - First there - a threat assessment. The second - which forces you can do it. Cooperation in this area - is a matter for future discussion.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:38 pm

    wow .. yesterday Israelis and now French
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:31 am

    The title is a bit misleading as what is being considered is joint ventures with france to develop new UAVs rather than Russia buying off the shelf French UAVs.

    I would suspect the Russians will learn a lot from operating the Israeli UAVs they have bought, but I think the cost of buying them included too many strings... likely in regard to sales of S-300 to Iran and missiles to Syria etc etc.

    Working with the French on UAVs will lead to good designs entering Russian military service IMHO.
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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:27 am

    I just noticed that in a couple of my posts in this thread I have mentioned one of the advantages of unifying the designs of in service Russian tanks will be the reduction in tank gun calibres and I mention the 100mm smoothbore being removed from service.
    Of course I was referring to the T-54/-55s rifled 100mm gun, so my error. Smile

    I also have noticed another error, I seem to have misread a quote.

    In post number 4 above I quoted this:

    Tank design and performance, in addition to crew training, are becoming increasingly important at a time when Moscow has decided to reduce Russia's tank force from over 20,000 operational and reserve vehicles to 2,000 operational and 5,000-6,000 in reserve.

    Which clearly shows plans for 2,000 operational tanks PLUS 5-6,000 tanks in reserve, so we are actually talking about up to 8,000 tanks in total.

    Also note that the emphasis is on crew training and using simulators means training becomes much much cheaper so it would make sense for them to buy simulators as soon as possible with any modifications to the final upgrade added later with a software update. Simulators allow training and crew coordination and unit coordination without burning fuel, using ammo, ripping up landscapes.
    Different scenarios can be tested and day and night operations can be run through without problems.

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:36 am

    5K?

    That is about the price of a decent sniper rifle.

    That is very good, because it is not really about super soldier stuff, this stuff gets its value by extending the networked nodes to include all the individuals in the military.
    Knowing where every man is because they are tied into a local net picture should make friend on friend mistakes less likely and also management of forces clearer.
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    Vladimir79

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    Rosoboronexport and French Sagem have created a JV for the production of INS

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:45 pm

    Rosoboronexport and French Sagem have created a joint venture for the production of inertial navigation systems

    MOSCOW, December 10. (ITAR-TASS). Russia and France formed a joint venture for the production of inertial navigation systems. As spokesman for Rosoboronexport, Vyacheslav Davydenko, in Moscow on Thursday, during the 15 th meeting of the Russian-French intergovernmental commission on bilateral cooperation, the signing of the Agreement between Rosoboronexport and the company Sagem Difans securitization "to establish joint venture for the production of inertial navigation systems. "

    "In the presence of heads of governments of Russia and France was signed by First Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Ivan Goncharenko and president of Sage, Jean-Len Furnero - Davydenko said. - According to the document, the joint venture will operate in the territory of the Russian Federation. The Russian side will hold 51 percent. and French - 49 percent. stocks (shares) in the capital to establish joint ventures. "

    "I am confident that the work of Russian-French joint venture will not only strengthen and expand military-technical cooperation between our countries, but also opens up new prospects for mutually beneficial co-design and manufacture of high-tech products, the exchange of advanced technologies", - said Goncharenko.

    In turn Furnero noted that "this new perspective is a clear confirmation of exceptionally friendly relations established between our two countries both at the industry and at the state level."

    "Sage" - high-tech company, part of the holding company Safran. The company is a world leader in developing and manufacturing optical-electronic systems, avionics, and avionics aviation, maritime and land-based facilities for civilian and military markets. "Sage" is the first in Europe and third in the world for inertial navigation systems for aircraft, ships and ground facilities. Annual sales turnover of more than 1.2 billion euros.
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    Russia in talks to buy 1000 French Panhard PVP armoured vehicles

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:14 am

    Russia in talks to buy 1000 French Panhard PVP armoured vehicles

    ABU DHABI, Feb. 21. (ARMS-TASS). French group "Panhard in talks to supply to Russia up to 1 thousand light armored vehicles. Itar-Tass on the International Defense Exhibition IDEX-2011 said commercial director Michel Galand.

    "The Russian side is in talks regarding the purchase of 500 to 1 thousand light armored vehicles, which are supposed to go into service Interior Ministry troops of Russia, - he said. - The contract value could reach 200 to 500 million euros."

    Wheel amphibious armored vehicle "PVP" has a mass of 4 tonnes is anticipated that some machines will be manufactured in France, and some - in Russia. According Galanda, the Russian partner for this project is not yet selected. In the nearest future Russia will be sent two vehicles to test. "After their completion, the first batch of machines can be delivered in six months - said Galand. - Feature of the transaction that we will give Russia the appropriate technology."

    Meanwhile, as reported by the deputy head of Rosoboronexport Viktor Komardin, " Russian authorities did not officially protest" to the leadership of Federal State Unitary Enterprise on practical action on the purchase.

    The group "Panhard" just put the armed forces of France 1000 armored amphibious PVP.
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    medo

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  medo on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:30 pm

    This is interesting. A year or two ago, there were rumors, that Russian MVD will buy Panhard VBLs, but those rumors were negated. Now they are here again. Time will tell if MVD will buy those vehicles.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:21 pm

    medo wrote:This is interesting. A year or two ago, there were rumors, that Russian MVD will buy Panhard VBLs, but those rumors were negated. Now they are here again. Time will tell if MVD will buy those vehicles.

    This is not for VBL but the more modern PVP.

    http://www.panhard.fr/360/index.html

    I do not think this is in conflict with the Iveco negotiations as it is a lighter vehicle.


    Last edited by Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:51 pm

    I wonder what specific technology they are after?
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:48 am

    GarryB wrote:I wonder what specific technology they are after?

    Engines, transmission and above all ballistic protection.


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    Re: Russian-French military cooperation

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:05 am


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