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    Turkey relations with US and NATO

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    Are they leaving the US' influence?

    [ 6 ]
    25% [25%] 
    [ 4 ]
    17% [17%] 
    [ 11 ]
    46% [46%] 
    [ 3 ]
    12% [12%] 

    Total Votes: 24
    Isos
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Isos on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:31 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Certainly economic support as well. 
    They close in for de-dollarisation clearly.

    We aren't giving them anything but moral support.

    Stupid move. Help them and take their market. Sell them mig-35 and other new weapons on credit so they are your client for at least 20 years.
    PapaDragon
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:04 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Certainly economic support as well. 
    They close in for de-dollarisation clearly.

    We aren't giving them anything but moral support.

    Stupid move. Help them and take their market. Sell them mig-35 and other new weapons on credit so they are your client for at least 20 years.

    On credit? Might as well put on a t-shirt that says ''I am idiot''. Remember the Ukraine and how that went down?

    Money up front. No freebies. If they are against the wall squeeze them for everything they got and then some. This is not just about Turkey but about any country (mine included). Nobody respects suckers. And Russia has been sucker for very long time.

    Again, remember the Ukraine... hell, remember entire Soviet period, communist brotherhood and global commie welfare program. That was totally worth it, right?

    Like they would ever switch allegiance long term. The moment Erdogan is hanging from a lamppost it will be back to usual. And I doubt new guys would bother with credit payments to Russia.
    Vladimir79
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:08 am

    Isos wrote:

    Stupid move. Help them and take their market. Sell them mig-35 and other new weapons on credit so they are your client for at least 20 years.

    What bank would back that loan? We might as well give it to them for free when they are headed for hyperinflation.
    Airman
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Airman on Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:36 am

    Isos wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Certainly economic support as well. 
    They close in for de-dollarisation clearly.

    We aren't giving them anything but moral support.

    Stupid move. Help them and take their market. Sell them mig-35 and other new weapons on credit so they are your client for at least 20 years.

    MİG-35 ? Very Happy Sorry, but we aren't Egyptians. We can't operate F-16 and MİG-35 at the same time.
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    ATLASCUB

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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ATLASCUB on Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:17 pm

    Once in a generation opportunity for Russia. Don't think there can be such a better tailor made case for break-up....... conditions are almost ideal from a variety of angles. Time to be bold and size the moment or let it wither away...

    Europe will go down with the ship, that is, they'll sink first and then break up from the leash as moribund trash.... has been made very clear.
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ATLASCUB on Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:30 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    Stupid move. Help them and take their market. Sell them mig-35 and other new weapons on credit so they are your client for at least 20 years.

    What bank would back that loan?  We might as well give it to them for free when they are headed for hyperinflation.

    Any country that tries to leave the reservation (American dominated sphere) is going to head for hyperinflation if they own their currency (the attacks will come, and they will be vicious and persistent). The only saving grace for the European poodles is that they have a common currency in the Euro and can absorb shocks from the threat of American sanctions better but make no mistake none of them would fair any better if they go at it alone (like Turkey) - that be Germany or France (who are even more dependent on the U.S market)..........perhaps worse with the amount of quantitative easing they've been engaged in for almost a decade now and this very dependence. Turkey's trade ties with the U.S are rather small in comparison, so the shocks come with the shorting of the lira, capital flight and scared investors responding to the masters whistle aka lack of direct investment (mainly foreign). And Moscow is no different at all.....hec, the ruble sank just at the mention of new sanctions a week ago, not to mention the earlier gang-up w/ the poodles..... and Russia is a stronger country overall to manage these assaults. The Turks don't have as much luxury as Russians.....strapped for natural resources to satisfy even local consumption.

    Moreover to fault Turkey for engaging in perhaps even more sound economic policy than the West for the last 20+ years, as some have tried to suggest, is laughable. The difference between them is that the U.S owns the world reserve currency and the European common market is huge and can sustain these shocks in a similar manner. Voodoo economics all over the place. Please...

    So, given the circumstances, the Turks are doing extremely well and should be applauded for having some backbone in them (although it's hard to get raped and say nothing - so that's a perspective but still, others do say nothing). None in Europe have backbone btw. I don't think geopolitically and ideologically speaking, Putin could ask for a better partner from the "Western" block. Dealing with the arrogant neoliberal French and Germans must be a HUGE pain in the @ss. Everytime Putin meets Merkle or Macron the rooms turn to ice. Turkey is close, has a developed economy more or less, educated populace, young - is dependent on Russian trade ties (a lot) and being a Muslim country is actually a bonus here given the threats coming from the ME and Russia's own, and its geolocation is as pristine real estate as there is.... something a whole bunch of dots within Europe don't offer in the slightest... you talk about defense security, economic security and turning the tide on the enemies at your doorstep... please what better gift from heaven?

    If you look at the general European rationable....to the submissive and "realist" it's foolish to rebel so in that sense their perspective and opinions are a lost cause - for the only thing they bring to the table is the further continuation of the system of control over their heads until the whole house of cards crashes down. Too integrated, too ideologically aligned, and dependent.

    Which is why none in Europe will leave the reservation barring total imminent collapse. Moreover they know they'll be picked apart by the U.S if one were to leave the reservation, and others within the Union itself will fuck them as well trying to triangulate. Hec Poland within the Union triangulates even now and things are at "peace". If you look at it even further aback, it's even more of a benefit Turkey is not part of the boomdangle that is the EU - bunch of tribes with lines on a map separating them... bickering always etc... a mess.

    Like I said above, Russia has a once in a lifetime opportunity here. And I hope they were prepared for this - that is, the eventual day Turkey could fray away from NATO ..... with a plan to integrate it to Russia's sphere of influence and integrate with it economically more so than now (aka the offering and reassurances to your new close partner). I do hope back in Moscow they weren't caught by surprise and are now rushing to draft strategies as the "situation develops" - aka one-step behind. To fuck the fuckers at your door-step you dictate the steps taken first, and as their predictable response comes in, however severe, you respond and set the terms again, and again. A big task will be convincing China to help because Russia's economic and eco-diplomacy clout alone is not up to the task. Everything always needs a push - Russia must provide that push here... how? That's a different topic matter that encompasses a comprehensive review of the situation with many experts chiming in to develop a strategy (with knowledge I don't possess).... one thing is certain - the push must come or the pull will pull back. Limbo is incompetence. But this is wishful thinking knowing full well how naked the Russians were caught with Ukraine and Syria. We'll see. I'll get to live it at least.


    Last edited by ATLASCUB on Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:13 pm; edited 12 times in total
    miketheterrible
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:49 pm

    The benefits Russia will give will be in form of both political and economic through means of energy deals, transit routes and possibly other civil technology in Co production. It won't be banking like China will do.
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    ATLASCUB

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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ATLASCUB on Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:15 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:The benefits Russia will give will be in form of both political and economic through means of energy deals, transit routes and possibly other civil technology in Co production. It won't be banking like China will do.
    It can be all things as trade ties mature over time and expand. Obviously now that seems out of the picture. But that's not the future of Eurasian integration - at least not what I picture in the realm of possibilities. The more Russia grows, the more it can do but it will not grow in isolation, and contained like it's now it will grow too slow. In that sense the Americans and their poodles (mainly Germany's cabal but others from the EU elite as well) have been very effective in their strategy..... for the Germans and Frenchies don't want an explosive Russian economic gravitas to break their little happy Union where they milk everyone else unimpeded (sucking the Anglo's on Foreign Policy is a very low price to pay to keep their kingdom). Which is why they were on board with Ukraine and will keep it cold as long as it's possible.... (plus they set the country back decades so the damage is done - hopefully Russian elites never forget that about their EU partners - as cold of a dagger as it ever will be).

    No matter how much the other poodles cry the sanctions are hurting them back...mainly Italy and other insignificants - the coldness in ties will persist. To those that really matter and have power in the EU, the cost is insignificant to the Russian threat. Now the new developments of course with Trumpie and his supporting cabal is that some elites in NA are OK with extracting more in "concessions" from the "vassals"...so the EU is throwing a small hissy fit and coddling with Russia to make big lover jealous....Putin will take any opening but it should not be seen for more than what it's. As soon as a neoliberal takes hold of the reigns in the divided NA elite, with the soft Obama/Bush touch, BFFs forever will be back in the fold. The question is can the ships be held steady for Trumpie's term or terms.
    miketheterrible
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:26 pm

    Of course future can be anything. But currently, what I mentioned is most likely for near future
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    ATLASCUB

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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ATLASCUB on Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:30 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Of course future can be anything. But currently, what I mentioned is most likely for near future

    Indeed just saying the potential is what really makes it an endeavor worth fighting for, and investing in...... the short term outlook invites inaction and lack of commitment - "a bit more of the same". In this sense it should be seen as a strategic investment....it simply is. The timing is what makes it such a pressing matter.

    Politically and in the security sphere however, the benefits are immense and immediate.
    Vladimir79
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:51 pm

    ATLASCUB wrote:
    Indeed just saying the potential is what really makes it an endeavor worth fighting for, and investing in...... the short term outlook invites inaction and lack of commitment - "a bit more of the same". In this sense it should be seen as a strategic investment....it simply is. The timing is what makes it such a pressing matter.

    Politically and in the security sphere however, the benefits are immense and immediate.

    We are doing everything that could be considered low risk support. What we won't do is put up billions in capital that can be hacked at by the whims of the US when Trump decides to write his next tweet. The immediate term outlook for the lira is nothing but down even if the US stops kicking the Brunson football. Everything Turkey has done this week to shore up the lira are short term fixes that will bring the house of cards crashing down even faster than it would have without sanctions. The Turkish CB has to raise interest rates if they wan't to stop the fall of the lira and even that is an intermediate fix, they need to import less and need fiscal tightening so they don't have to print so much money. Regardless of what they do, the Turkish economy is headed for recession and if they don't raise interest rates, hyperinflation.
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ATLASCUB on Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:25 pm

    Just a fresh-off-the-press example of the countless low key propaganda hit pieces going on in U.S media regarding Turkey...

    https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/08/18/turkish-warships-harass-and-intimidate-cypriot-fishermen-in-international-waters/

    Turkish warships are accused of harassing Greek Cypriot fishermen in international waters, threatening to tow boats and take crews prisoner.

    Warships commanded by the Islamist government in Ankara are reported to have approached a Cypriot fishing boat belonging to the ‘Ta Psarokaika’ company at 2 in the morning.

    Hush hush when the vassal is obedient...when not... well....
    Vladimir79
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:27 pm

    ATLASCUB wrote:Just a fresh-off-the-press example of the countless low key propaganda hit pieces going on in U.S media regarding Turkey...

    https://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/08/18/turkish-warships-harass-and-intimidate-cypriot-fishermen-in-international-waters/

    Turkish warships are accused of harassing Greek Cypriot fishermen in international waters, threatening to tow boats and take crews prisoner.

    Warships commanded by the Islamist government in Ankara are reported to have approached a Cypriot fishing boat belonging to the ‘Ta Psarokaika’ company at 2 in the morning.

    Hush hush when the vassal is obedient...when not... well....

    Cyprus is not a member of NATO so the only thing that could be used to stop Turkey is an EU battlegroup, at least until Turkey is kicked out of NATO.
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    ATLASCUB

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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ATLASCUB on Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:27 pm

    No one cares about Cyprus except the Greeks. This is all threat posturing of a potential pivot by the Americans to now suddenly care. One of the arenas from which they'll attack Turkey from. Oil from Iran being another as an excuse to sanction the country to hell and back.

    The Greeks are ecstatic about it, as they've been forgotten for decades by Washington (and everyone for that matter) as it cared for its partner Turkey more so than them. So they'll welcome this and any other developments with open arms and actively work to create schisms.

    The recent cooling of relations between the Greeks and Russia are all connected to this ongoing rift (and more) as Russia gets closer to Turkey - official excuses are public masks. The Greeks could care less about their relations with Moscow if they could secure Washington patronage and tutorship. In that sense, they're working to prove their worth.

    Russia will have a hard time trying to balance this out...I don't think it can nor should it seek to do so other than at a superficial level. Greece is not as important as Turkey, not even close.
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    ATLASCUB

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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ATLASCUB on Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:02 pm

    Fresh from the paper of record:

    The West Hoped for Democracy in Turkey. Erdogan Had Other Ideas.

    Turkey’s descent into authoritarianism and crisis has destroyed whatever hopes remained that the country’s president might serve as a force for moderation.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/business/west-democracy-turkey-erdogan-financial-crisis.html

    Anyone with a lick of understanding of propaganda knows that his a thin veil regime change hit piece. I'm enjoying the onslaught.... so textbook, so automatic, so, predictable.
    LMFS
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  LMFS on Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:36 am

    ATLASCUB wrote:Fresh from the paper of record:

    The West Hoped for Democracy in Turkey. Erdogan Had Other Ideas.

    Turkey’s descent into authoritarianism and crisis has destroyed whatever hopes remained that the country’s president might serve as a force for moderation.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/business/west-democracy-turkey-erdogan-financial-crisis.html

    Anyone with a lick of understanding of propaganda knows that his a thin veil regime change hit piece. I'm enjoying the onslaught.... so textbook, so automatic, so, predictable.

    Some years before:
    lol1 lol1

    GarryB
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:13 am

    MİG-35 ? Very Happy Sorry, but we aren't Egyptians. We can't operate F-16 and MİG-35 at the same time.

    It would be a problem that solves itself... if you bought MiG-35s you would lose support for your F-16s and they would quickly become unusable... ask Venezuela.

    What you should do is to publicly outline all the sanctions imposed by the US over this Pastor issue and then say that he clearly is much more important than he appeared to be before.

    This means that he is clearly hiding something so the obvious way forward is to force him to talk, and you can do that with the various waterboarding and other torture methods used by and endorsed by the US...

    If he still does not talk then put him in high security prison in solitary confinement until he admits to his guilt... and when he admits his guilt then give him the death penalty for making you look like the bad guys.

    Also get him to confess he poisoned the Skripals et all in the UK...
    d_taddei2
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:16 am

    There is stupid and then there's this.


    [size=48]Turkey plans to buy 120 F-35 fighter jets from US: Erdogan[/size]


    Turkey would be mad and stupid to buy F-35. 

    1) turkey doesn't really need such aircraft 
    2) it's plagued with issues
    3) rising costs and it's already expensive 
    4) gives usa a hand on the balls of Turkey 
    5) edro clearly forgets usa backed the attempted coup

    The aircraft Turkey would get are export variants  (downgraded) and after the S-400 deal likely get a secretly further downgraded version. and likely price hike disguised through an excuse. Turkey should cut its losses and buy other aircraft from non western countries. If they are hell bent on stealth they could do following options:

     join a joint venture with China on its J-20 a bit like the arrangements of India and Russia on the FGFA/PMF project.

    join the FGFA / PMF project. This may cement the on off deal between India and Russia.

    buy export version of Su-57.

    All options would likely delay Turkey in getting stealth aircraft as the F-35 deal they would likely receive aircraft quicker. but if they chose one of the options above they would save money and not have the potential of being bent over a barrel if they so much as make usa slightly unhappy in anyway. I think Turkey would be better off buying something like Su-35 & Su-34 and possibly a smaller number of stealth if they really wanted the capability. 

    f-35


    Turkey expected to invest $5 bn in total and has  already invested $200 mn 


    projected cost to buy 120 F-35A @95mn each = $11.4bn 


    for an EXAMPLE  (please note prices could rise or reduce) for same number of aircraft  (120) and still regaining a small element of stealth for certain missions. Turkey could get:


    su-34 @$50mn x 36 = $1.8bn
    su 35 @ $75mn x 60 = $4.5bn
    FGFA @$100mn x 24=$2.4bn
    total 120 aircraft. 
    minus $200mn loss in investment for F-35.
    which leaves $2.5bn to invest in a joint project such as FGFA/PMF. bearing in mind that Turkey at this stage of the project will unlikely have huge amount of say on the design but likely be able to produce some parts hence the smaller contribution to the project 


    there was a mention that usa could block parts etc for F-16 turkey am sure would have enough technical know how and connections to keep them flying for years. And course another option that their was talk of a stealth version of Su-35 that could be in development. maybe turkey and Russia could do a joint project on that with turkey allowed to build it's own aircraft for its own use no export sales. This could then replace the F-16.

    and before people start jumping all over this please this is just an example and by no means likely to happen or prices 100% correct. 


    https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/article/turkey-plans-to-buy-120-f-35-fighter-jets-from-us-erdogan/
    GarryB
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:49 pm

    Well first of all let me say my method of dealing with that American Pastor in Turkey would have worked... less than 70 days in solitary confinement and that Russian woman who was guilty of nothing signed an "I did it... whatever you said I did... I did it" confession.

    Regarding the F-35, I was under the impression that Turkey was a subcontractor for the project and makes parts for all F-35s so it was in their interests to continue their cooperation.

    Actually it will be good for them to get it, because US fears regarding it operating together with S-400 systems will be interesting... it is better for the US to cut them out than for Turkey to back out themselves... way more penalties and problems for the US that way.
    d_taddei2
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well first of all let me say my method of dealing with that American Pastor in Turkey would have worked... less than 70 days in solitary confinement and that Russian woman who was guilty of nothing signed an "I did it... whatever you said I did... I did it" confession.

    Regarding the F-35, I was under the impression that Turkey was a subcontractor for the project and makes parts for all F-35s so it was in their interests to continue their cooperation.

    Actually it will be good for them to get it, because US fears regarding it operating together with S-400 systems will be interesting... it is better for the US to cut them out than for Turkey to back out themselves... way more penalties and problems for the US that way.
    yez I believe usa has promised turkey they will make $12-15bn supplying parts. 

    I found the pastor thing a bit suspicious I can't imagine all that hassle for a pastor lol. 

    of course what I mentioned could be applied either way turkey or usa pulling out but ur right let usa pull out which is likely what's going to happen going the news. Turkey isn't the one who's calling it a problem usa are. In fact the example is suggested doesn't include any compensation for a potential pull out of usa so that would be an additional bonus on top lol.
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ATLASCUB on Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:39 pm

    Out of NATO, economy in gutters, soon to be civil warred and divided... No
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:53 pm

    Looks like Turkey been offered Patriot batteries at better prices as the US State Department seems to have approved 3.5 Billion dollars of a sale of 80 Patriot Batt Missiles and 60 pa-3 Missiles to fill in the loss of Russian S 400 system.

    Looking for a link

    EDIT

    Found this

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/19/a-messy-multi-billion-dollar-weapon-sale-between-turkey-russia-and-the-us-just-got-more-complicated.html
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  ATLASCUB on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:10 pm

    Nothing is clear about whether the S-400 deal is getting cancelled but the U.S is for sure selling the Patriots now. Quid pro-quo.


    Last edited by ATLASCUB on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
    d_taddei2
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  d_taddei2 on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:14 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Looks like Turkey been offered Patriot batteries at better prices as the US State Department seems to have approved 3.5 Billion dollars of a sale of 80 Patriot Batt Missiles and 60 pa-3 Missiles to fill in the loss of Russian S 400 system.

    Looking for a link

    EDIT

    Found this

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/19/a-messy-multi-billion-dollar-weapon-sale-between-turkey-russia-and-the-us-just-got-more-complicated.html
    what does people on here think will happen? 

    I think personally they will.buy both as it will kinda apease both although usa will be pissed still. on the other hand Russia will still be happy it gets its sale and likely valuable info on the usa systems. And turkey gets to have a great laugh because not only does it get a great system  (S-400) but also get usa systems cheaper. but that's if they get both. The whole point of this usa deal is that they ditch s-400. I hope turkey doesn't fall for this bait. Turkey is quick to forget who saved his skin not so long ago. 

    Turkey should say we will take the deal but we also want the F-35 deal and keep S-400 lol. If usa says no turkey should dig there heels in. show that they can't be bullied by the usa. 

    but Erdogan may fear another coup lol. and bow to usa.
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    Re: Turkey relations with US and NATO

    Post  Isos on Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:24 pm

    S-400 is already paid. That's too late to cancel. If they cancel they can say good bye to money and russia keeps the s-400 for itself or can sell them to iran which means it get paid twice for the same systems.


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