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    Ammo calibres for Russian Army: Discussion

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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:15 am

    Hard to say... many people look at the 14.5mm and 12.7mm and think they are almost the same, but the 14.5mm is twice as powerful as the 12.7mm and could better be considered to be a 20mm cannon with high muzzle velocity for good penetration but reduced shell capacity of HE rounds.

    In many ways the 23 x 115mm round would be an interesting replacement as it has good shell capacity for powerful HE rounds, but a APFSDS round would also be rather interesting too.

    We will likely get a better idea when the new families of vehicles are revealed... the small APC turret revealed so far seem to have Kord turrets rather than the 14.5mm guns normally fitted on BTRs, but then the IFV turret we have seen so far has Kornet missiles and 30mm cannons... I personally expect the 57mm high velocity gun to be fitted on the IFV and SPAAG, so will the old fit outs of 100mm and 30mm guns be replaced with 57mm guns... is the 30mm gun going to go completely or will it replace the 14.5mm gun on APC like vehicles... there is that light 30mm gun armed turret on 4x4s like the tigr... which suggests the HMG with be becoming more rare.

    In terms of man portable weapons the Kord is lighter and easier to drag around the battlefield than the KPV...
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army: Discussion

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:Hard to say... many people look at the 14.5mm and 12.7mm and think they are almost the same, but the 14.5mm is twice as powerful as the 12.7mm and could better be considered to be a 20mm cannon with high muzzle velocity for good penetration but reduced shell capacity of HE rounds.

    In many ways the 23 x 115mm round would be an interesting replacement as it has good shell capacity for powerful HE rounds, but a APFSDS round would also be rather interesting too.

    We will likely get a better idea when the new families of vehicles are revealed... the small APC turret revealed so far seem to have Kord turrets rather than the 14.5mm guns normally fitted on BTRs, but then the IFV turret we have seen so far has Kornet missiles and 30mm cannons... I personally expect the 57mm high velocity gun to be fitted on the IFV and SPAAG, so will the old fit outs of 100mm and 30mm guns be replaced with 57mm guns... is the 30mm gun going to go completely or will it replace the 14.5mm gun on APC like vehicles... there is that light 30mm gun armed turret on 4x4s like the tigr... which suggests the HMG with be becoming more rare.

    In terms of man portable weapons the Kord is lighter and easier to drag around the battlefield than the KPV...

    Yes I agree with the 57mm statement. It's just that I hadn't heard anything about 14.5 future
    I think 30mm will be kept due to current pantsir fixed wing aircraft are still not 30mm proof. I know 14.5 has its uses but it's future we will wait a see. Has any btr-80 or bmp-3 been armed with 57mm yet?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:28 am

    We have seen BMP-3 with a 57mm gun turret, but I think the definitive system will be a fully unmanned turret that can be used on all the new vehicle families like Typhoon, Boomerang, Kurganets, and Armata.

    It might even be useful on small patrol boats and river boats and be mounted on trains.

    As I have mentioned I have seen a small turret with Kord mounted on it, which makes me think that perhaps the 14.5mm round might be eliminated from the armed forces logistics train... but as I mentioned it is a useful round in terms of penetration.

    Having said that the 23x115mm round used in the chin turret of the latest model Hind would be an interesting replacement for the 14.5 x 114mm round.... very similar size in terms of round and case, but huge potential with APFSDS rounds with very high muzzle velocity matched with a HE round with a heavy payload for its calibre.

    20 years ago I would have said no chance because a belt of ammo using APFSDS rounds and HE Frag rounds would have totally different trajectories so the flat shooting APFSDS rounds would print on target and the heavy slow HE shells would hit the ground well short of the target.

    Today however with a dual feed mechanism and software based aim point in EO optics means a burst of APFSDS rounds followed by a burst of HE rounds could be very accurate.

    There is actually a modification of the KPV HMG called the KPB in 23 x 115mm calibre that would be ideal... simple light and cheap.

    Alternatively the twin barrel cannon offers very high rate of fire burst fire which would also be very useful.

    Such a calibre would offer good Armour penetration with good HE performance... an APFSDS round offering better AP performance to the 14.5mm and the HE round with much larger HE capacity than the 14.5mm.

    Of course they could just move to 40mm and 57mm grenade launchers...

    kopyo-21

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army: Discussion

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:17 am

    Hi GarryB,

    The muzzle velocity of 23x115 mm HE rounds is ~700 m/s so the muzzle velocity of its APFSDS (if be developed) supposes to be maximum at 800 m/s that is still very low kinetic to penetrate anything.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:47 am

    The muzzle velocity of 125mm HE FRAG shells is 850m/s, while APFSDS rounds in the same calibre are over 1,700m/s...

    The whole point of APFSDS rounds is that the volume of the shell case is no longer filled with large low density HE material of a heavy projectile weight that takes up most of the shell case.... a much smaller and lighter high velocity projectile leaves much more space for more propellent which means much lighter projectile and much more propellant in the same case so much much higher velocity. And much better armour penetration.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:52 am

    The obvious problem of course is the totally different trajectory of a heavy HE shell moving at 715m/s from a GSh-23L twin barrel 23mm cannon, and a high velocity lighter projectile travelling much much faster from the same barrel.

    The main limitation of such rounds is the calibre as that limits the weight and velocity of the round so in theory the 23 x 115mm round should have better performance than the 14.5 x 114mm round because the larger calibre should allow a bigger propellant charge to be used with a heavier projectile leading to much better performance on target.

    kopyo-21

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army: Discussion

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:The muzzle velocity of 125mm HE FRAG shells is 850m/s, while APFSDS rounds in the same calibre are over 1,700m/s...

    The whole point of APFSDS rounds is that the volume of the shell case is no longer filled with large low density HE material of a heavy projectile weight that takes up most of the shell case.... a much smaller and lighter high velocity projectile leaves much more space for more propellent which means much lighter projectile and much more propellant  in the same case so much much higher velocity. And much better armour penetration.
    Sofar, the 23x115mm and 23x152mm are using the same HEI and API projectile so suppose they can use the same APDS and FAPDS projectile too.

    In the case of 23x152mm rounds for Zu-23-2 and Zsu-23-4, the muzzle velocity of APDS and FAPDS rounds is ~1,100 m/s vs 970 m/s of HEI and API. There for I don't think there are much diffrences between 2 kinds of rounds (APDS/FAPDS and HEI/API) in the case of 23x115mm rounds.

    The steel penetration of 23x115mm API and HEI rounds is 10 mm armour plate, placed at 200m from the muzzle, at 60° towards the firing line (data from Arsernal - Bulgaria). While the other souce from Russia said that the penetration in normal steel of 23x115 rounds was 15mm from the distance of 800m.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army: Discussion

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:37 pm

    Sofar, the 23x115mm and 23x152mm are using the same HEI and API projectile so suppose they can use the same APDS and FAPDS projectile too.

    The whole point of the 23x115mm round is rate of fire and hit probability and its primary target was light evading aerial targets where armour penetration was simply not an issue.

    Greatly reduced muzzle velocity requirements led to the much smaller compact propellant case, so that the effectiveness of the round comes from the weight of the HE shell and the number of rounds impacting the target area at once.

    The 14.5mm round should be able to double the penetration of the 50 cal SLAP rounds simply because it has twice as much muzzle energy... a 23 x 115mm shell should be able to match that being of similar form if totally different original purpose.

    A proper APFSDS round should improve penetration even further and eliminate deflection of shot issues too.

    In the case of 23x152mm rounds for Zu-23-2 and Zsu-23-4, the muzzle velocity of APDS and FAPDS rounds is ~1,100 m/s vs 970 m/s of HEI and API. There for I don't think there are much diffrences between 2 kinds of rounds (APDS/FAPDS and HEI/API) in the case of 23x115mm rounds.

    The ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2 have simple optical aiming systems that don't allow for firing different round types in one belt.

    This means the HEI and API rounds had to have a similar trajectory or fired completely separately otherwise one type of round would hit the target and the other higher velocity rounds would miss completely.

    These rounds are designed for use against aircraft so there was never any need for very high armour penetration.... all they needed to penetrate was the odd A-10 and AH-64 Apache helicopters... within their 2-2.5km effective range.

    The 23 x 115mm does not have to do much better.... it is not replacing the 30 x 165mm rounds.

    All we are talking about is using it to replace the older 14.5mm rounds and in that department even without any changes the 23 x 115mm round is already superior in its HE projectile... an APFSDS round with better penetration than the 14.5mm is all that is needed.

    The steel penetration of 23x115mm API and HEI rounds is 10 mm armour plate, placed at 200m from the muzzle, at 60° towards the firing line (data from Arsernal - Bulgaria). While the other souce from Russia said that the penetration in normal steel of 23x115 rounds was 15mm from the distance of 800m.

    Which for an anti aircraft round is perfectly adequate... BTW penetration would be for the API and not the HEI rounds...

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