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    Ammo calibres for Russian Army

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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:15 am

    Hard to say... many people look at the 14.5mm and 12.7mm and think they are almost the same, but the 14.5mm is twice as powerful as the 12.7mm and could better be considered to be a 20mm cannon with high muzzle velocity for good penetration but reduced shell capacity of HE rounds.

    In many ways the 23 x 115mm round would be an interesting replacement as it has good shell capacity for powerful HE rounds, but a APFSDS round would also be rather interesting too.

    We will likely get a better idea when the new families of vehicles are revealed... the small APC turret revealed so far seem to have Kord turrets rather than the 14.5mm guns normally fitted on BTRs, but then the IFV turret we have seen so far has Kornet missiles and 30mm cannons... I personally expect the 57mm high velocity gun to be fitted on the IFV and SPAAG, so will the old fit outs of 100mm and 30mm guns be replaced with 57mm guns... is the 30mm gun going to go completely or will it replace the 14.5mm gun on APC like vehicles... there is that light 30mm gun armed turret on 4x4s like the tigr... which suggests the HMG with be becoming more rare.

    In terms of man portable weapons the Kord is lighter and easier to drag around the battlefield than the KPV...
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    d_taddei2

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  d_taddei2 on Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:Hard to say... many people look at the 14.5mm and 12.7mm and think they are almost the same, but the 14.5mm is twice as powerful as the 12.7mm and could better be considered to be a 20mm cannon with high muzzle velocity for good penetration but reduced shell capacity of HE rounds.

    In many ways the 23 x 115mm round would be an interesting replacement as it has good shell capacity for powerful HE rounds, but a APFSDS round would also be rather interesting too.

    We will likely get a better idea when the new families of vehicles are revealed... the small APC turret revealed so far seem to have Kord turrets rather than the 14.5mm guns normally fitted on BTRs, but then the IFV turret we have seen so far has Kornet missiles and 30mm cannons... I personally expect the 57mm high velocity gun to be fitted on the IFV and SPAAG, so will the old fit outs of 100mm and 30mm guns be replaced with 57mm guns... is the 30mm gun going to go completely or will it replace the 14.5mm gun on APC like vehicles... there is that light 30mm gun armed turret on 4x4s like the tigr... which suggests the HMG with be becoming more rare.

    In terms of man portable weapons the Kord is lighter and easier to drag around the battlefield than the KPV...

    Yes I agree with the 57mm statement. It's just that I hadn't heard anything about 14.5 future
    I think 30mm will be kept due to current pantsir fixed wing aircraft are still not 30mm proof. I know 14.5 has its uses but it's future we will wait a see. Has any btr-80 or bmp-3 been armed with 57mm yet?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:28 am

    We have seen BMP-3 with a 57mm gun turret, but I think the definitive system will be a fully unmanned turret that can be used on all the new vehicle families like Typhoon, Boomerang, Kurganets, and Armata.

    It might even be useful on small patrol boats and river boats and be mounted on trains.

    As I have mentioned I have seen a small turret with Kord mounted on it, which makes me think that perhaps the 14.5mm round might be eliminated from the armed forces logistics train... but as I mentioned it is a useful round in terms of penetration.

    Having said that the 23x115mm round used in the chin turret of the latest model Hind would be an interesting replacement for the 14.5 x 114mm round.... very similar size in terms of round and case, but huge potential with APFSDS rounds with very high muzzle velocity matched with a HE round with a heavy payload for its calibre.

    20 years ago I would have said no chance because a belt of ammo using APFSDS rounds and HE Frag rounds would have totally different trajectories so the flat shooting APFSDS rounds would print on target and the heavy slow HE shells would hit the ground well short of the target.

    Today however with a dual feed mechanism and software based aim point in EO optics means a burst of APFSDS rounds followed by a burst of HE rounds could be very accurate.

    There is actually a modification of the KPV HMG called the KPB in 23 x 115mm calibre that would be ideal... simple light and cheap.

    Alternatively the twin barrel cannon offers very high rate of fire burst fire which would also be very useful.

    Such a calibre would offer good Armour penetration with good HE performance... an APFSDS round offering better AP performance to the 14.5mm and the HE round with much larger HE capacity than the 14.5mm.

    Of course they could just move to 40mm and 57mm grenade launchers...

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:17 am

    Hi GarryB,

    The muzzle velocity of 23x115 mm HE rounds is ~700 m/s so the muzzle velocity of its APFSDS (if be developed) supposes to be maximum at 800 m/s that is still very low kinetic to penetrate anything.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:47 am

    The muzzle velocity of 125mm HE FRAG shells is 850m/s, while APFSDS rounds in the same calibre are over 1,700m/s...

    The whole point of APFSDS rounds is that the volume of the shell case is no longer filled with large low density HE material of a heavy projectile weight that takes up most of the shell case.... a much smaller and lighter high velocity projectile leaves much more space for more propellent which means much lighter projectile and much more propellant in the same case so much much higher velocity. And much better armour penetration.
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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:52 am

    The obvious problem of course is the totally different trajectory of a heavy HE shell moving at 715m/s from a GSh-23L twin barrel 23mm cannon, and a high velocity lighter projectile travelling much much faster from the same barrel.

    The main limitation of such rounds is the calibre as that limits the weight and velocity of the round so in theory the 23 x 115mm round should have better performance than the 14.5 x 114mm round because the larger calibre should allow a bigger propellant charge to be used with a heavier projectile leading to much better performance on target.

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:The muzzle velocity of 125mm HE FRAG shells is 850m/s, while APFSDS rounds in the same calibre are over 1,700m/s...

    The whole point of APFSDS rounds is that the volume of the shell case is no longer filled with large low density HE material of a heavy projectile weight that takes up most of the shell case.... a much smaller and lighter high velocity projectile leaves much more space for more propellent which means much lighter projectile and much more propellant  in the same case so much much higher velocity. And much better armour penetration.
    Sofar, the 23x115mm and 23x152mm are using the same HEI and API projectile so suppose they can use the same APDS and FAPDS projectile too.

    In the case of 23x152mm rounds for Zu-23-2 and Zsu-23-4, the muzzle velocity of APDS and FAPDS rounds is ~1,100 m/s vs 970 m/s of HEI and API. There for I don't think there are much diffrences between 2 kinds of rounds (APDS/FAPDS and HEI/API) in the case of 23x115mm rounds.

    The steel penetration of 23x115mm API and HEI rounds is 10 mm armour plate, placed at 200m from the muzzle, at 60° towards the firing line (data from Arsernal - Bulgaria). While the other souce from Russia said that the penetration in normal steel of 23x115 rounds was 15mm from the distance of 800m.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:37 pm

    Sofar, the 23x115mm and 23x152mm are using the same HEI and API projectile so suppose they can use the same APDS and FAPDS projectile too.

    The whole point of the 23x115mm round is rate of fire and hit probability and its primary target was light evading aerial targets where armour penetration was simply not an issue.

    Greatly reduced muzzle velocity requirements led to the much smaller compact propellant case, so that the effectiveness of the round comes from the weight of the HE shell and the number of rounds impacting the target area at once.

    The 14.5mm round should be able to double the penetration of the 50 cal SLAP rounds simply because it has twice as much muzzle energy... a 23 x 115mm shell should be able to match that being of similar form if totally different original purpose.

    A proper APFSDS round should improve penetration even further and eliminate deflection of shot issues too.

    In the case of 23x152mm rounds for Zu-23-2 and Zsu-23-4, the muzzle velocity of APDS and FAPDS rounds is ~1,100 m/s vs 970 m/s of HEI and API. There for I don't think there are much diffrences between 2 kinds of rounds (APDS/FAPDS and HEI/API) in the case of 23x115mm rounds.

    The ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2 have simple optical aiming systems that don't allow for firing different round types in one belt.

    This means the HEI and API rounds had to have a similar trajectory or fired completely separately otherwise one type of round would hit the target and the other higher velocity rounds would miss completely.

    These rounds are designed for use against aircraft so there was never any need for very high armour penetration.... all they needed to penetrate was the odd A-10 and AH-64 Apache helicopters... within their 2-2.5km effective range.

    The 23 x 115mm does not have to do much better.... it is not replacing the 30 x 165mm rounds.

    All we are talking about is using it to replace the older 14.5mm rounds and in that department even without any changes the 23 x 115mm round is already superior in its HE projectile... an APFSDS round with better penetration than the 14.5mm is all that is needed.

    The steel penetration of 23x115mm API and HEI rounds is 10 mm armour plate, placed at 200m from the muzzle, at 60° towards the firing line (data from Arsernal - Bulgaria). While the other souce from Russia said that the penetration in normal steel of 23x115 rounds was 15mm from the distance of 800m.

    Which for an anti aircraft round is perfectly adequate... BTW penetration would be for the API and not the HEI rounds...

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  Austin on Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:48 pm

    Can someone explain to me what advantage will a 7.62x39 will provide over 7.62x51 NATO round.

    I ask this because India is in the final process of buying AK-103 about 6.5 lakh and will be made in India that a huge number. ( https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/up-front/story/20180917-the-search-for-an-assault-rifle-1334289-2018-09-07 )

    SOme stastics posted by posted in Indian thread stated 7.62x39 does not provide any major advantage over 5.56x45 round and most certainly the 7.62x51 would be much better than 7.62x39 round

    Link to discussion https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4016&start=4080#p2292522



    Thank You

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  marcellogo on Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:12 am

    Austin wrote:Can someone explain to me what advantage will a 7.62x39 will provide over 7.62x51 NATO round.

    I ask this because India is in the final process of buying AK-103 about 6.5 lakh and will be made in India that a huge number. ( https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/up-front/story/20180917-the-search-for-an-assault-rifle-1334289-2018-09-07 )

    SOme stastics posted by posted in Indian thread stated 7.62x39 does not provide any major advantage over 5.56x45 round  and most certainly the 7.62x51 would be much better than 7.62x39 round  

    Link to discussion https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4016&start=4080#p2292522



    Thank You

    The 7,62x39 is absolutely not comparable with the 7,62x51.
    This last is a full power round, its russian counterpart being the 7,62x54R instead.
    They are rounds optimized for MG and marksman rifles, not for an assault rifle.
    There was however a trend of trying to use it also for individual weapons but it work well only in the hand of selected individuals not for the standard soldier.
    Russia uses the 5,45x39 round as a standard caliber but probably India, having 7,62x39mm weapons inits own arsenal has preferred to keep it insead of introducing a completely new caliber.



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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  Austin on Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:04 am

    Thanks for the reply marcellego

    It seems between NATO 5.56 vs 7.62×39 – Cartridge Comparison there is not much difference or gain to opt for 7.62x39

    https://www.swggun.org/5-56-vs-7-62/
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    GarryB

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    Re: Ammo calibres for Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:05 pm

    The real question is what are you going to be using the round for.

    Is it going to be an assault rifle cartridge, or is it going to be a machine gun round.

    For an assault rifle most of the time you will be shooting at targets at 200m or less... perhaps very occasionally firing at 300m but never much more than this.

    In such a scenario a 7.62x51mm round is long and has twice the powder charge of a 7.62x39mm round, yet is no more or less lethal against a target within 300m.

    In effect both will make a 7.62mm hole in the target and exit.

    The main difference is that if you want to use the rifle at close quarters in full auto a lot of your rounds will go near the target with the 7.62x39mm round, while most of the 7.62x51mm rounds will go skywards.

    Opinions differ regarding small arms ammo... some people like smaller faster rounds like the 5.56mm NATO and 5.45mm Russian, but if you look at the evolution of small calibre projectiles... the 5.56mm started off as a 55 grain bullet and then became a 62 and then a 65 grain bullet, and the 5.45mm round got heavier too, while the 7.62x39mm started as a 122 grain bullet and seems to currently be a 154 grain bullet that is popular.

    And it is not just rifle bullets... 9mm vs 45 cal, is an argument in itself...

    In urban combat the Indian Army seems to prefer the heavier 7.62x39mm bullet, whereas in open terrain the lighter higher velocity 5.56mm (or 5.45mm) would probably be preferred... though ironically in open terrain a heavier 7.62 x 51mm would be better in open terrain, but even a sniper rifle with the average soldier and ammo would not hit much beyond about 600m reliably.

    The 7.62x39mm round is considered a short range round because as the projectile slows down its trajectory really curves down.

    I have had a lot of arguments with American kids about the AK and how useless the 7.62x39mm calibre weapon is.

    I have one and can tell you it is fine.

    It has a battle setting of 300m and if you zero it at that range and use the battle setting in combat against people you never really have to shift your aim.

    With the iron sights set at 300m with a point of aim at the centre chest of the target means that the height of the trajectory of the bullet means at no range from 0 to 300m does the height of the round exceed the distance from the centre of chest and top of the skull of a human.

    That means if to target is 10m away your bullet might hit a little above his centre chest... at 50m it might hit him in the throat, and at 150m it might hit him between his eyes... at 250m it might hit him 15cm above the centre chest and at 300m it will hit him in the centre chest point of aim. At 400m it might hit him in the gut or groin.

    So if an enemy soldier appears you aim at the centre of his chest and fire... if he is 400m away he will be tiny and bloody hard to see and you probably wont hit him anyway with iron sights, but you don't need to waste time working out range or anything unless you do have time and rather than shift your rear iron sight you can aim slightly high or low.

    When you are deer shooting in the mountains you have plenty of time to use a rangefinder and dial up the range and take careful aim. Shooting in the bush and you pretty much set the rifle to 50m and point and shoot... aim a little high or low to compensate if it is closer or further away than where you zeroed the rifle, but no time to click the telescopic sight to range...

    BTW perhaps that recently revealed 7.62x51mm AK-103 variant is for the Indian market... in practical terms it would be a sort of replacement for the SLR as a DMR.

    A mix of those and 7.62x39mm rifles would provide a unit with short and medium range fire power, with the squad MG providing long range and suppression fire power.

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