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    Russian Private Military Companies

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    par far
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    Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  par far on Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:01 pm

    A little while back, I read about how Russia going to make Private Military Companies(like Blackwater). Does Russia currently have a private military company or do they plan on getting some. I think private military companies are good as they can used to push foreign policy like the US does.


    http://rt.com/politics/168904-russia-private-military-companies/

    NationalRus
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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  NationalRus on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:20 pm

    they have, RSB Group some others

    im also all for it and a active roll for them

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Regular on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:27 pm

    RSB group is still working in Iraq AFAIK. I wonder how dangerous their job is at the moment.

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:28 pm

    NationalRus wrote:they have, RSB Group some others

    im also all for it and a active roll for them
    All for them? They are a disastrous in the making (unless they are tightly watched). I thought Blackwater was enough of a failure, that people would give up on such companies, guess not!

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  NationalRus on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:40 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    NationalRus wrote:they have, RSB Group some others

    im also all for it and a active roll for them
    All for them? They are a disastrous in the making (unless they are tightly watched). I thought Blackwater was enough of a failure, that people would give up on such companies, guess not!
    they are actaully the most effective, far more effective then beurocratic and unflexeble normal army units in a unconventional situation. blackwater was also effective in what they did, but well 2 fuck ups and your out, while when themilitary fucks up for the thousends of a time then well shit happens no need to talk about it

    they just get all the media hype when somthing goes wrong since well they are privet after all

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:25 pm

    Sure they are effective, but definitely not without drawbacks... They can go against regulation and armed forces planning, as wonderfully demonstrated by Blackwater every friggin' deployment. Not to say that they all do that, but I wouldn't doubt it... Plus they stir up a lot of controversy, even though that isn't a direct problem, it is one nonetheless.

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  par far on Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:05 pm

    NationalRus wrote:they have, RSB Group some others

    im also all for it and a active roll for them


    They are very effective and can be used where soldiers cannot be used for various purposes. They should be supported financially and logistically.

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:52 am

    Private Military Companies are very dangerous and are used currently by the US to do jobs which they can not allow to be done by normal military units, mostly unethical and forbidden actions. Black Water are driving through cities in Iraq and Afghansitan like that is their playground they are killing civilians for fun to provoce firefights, they are terrorists by the very defintion of this word, they use violence to intimidate the people aka terrorism and i am against PMC's they are very dangerous.

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  par far on Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:22 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Private Military Companies are very dangerous and are used currently by the US to do jobs which they can not allow to be done by normal military units, mostly unethical and forbidden actions. Black Water are driving through cities in Iraq and Afghansitan like that is their playground they are killing civilians for fun to provoce firefights, they are terrorists by the very defintion of this word, they use violence to intimidate the people aka terrorism and i am against PMC's they are very dangerous.


    I know that Private Military Companies are dangerous but sometimes you need them to fight fire with fire when you don't enough water like in Ukraine(Russia just can't send in the regular army). The US is using Private Military Companies in Ukraine to do their dirty work for them. Private Military Companies can be very useful, blackwater in Iraq and Afghanistan were doing what they were told to do kill innocent civilians, so someone would shoot back at them and then the people shooting back at them can be called terrorists and the US could justify being there because there are "terrorists" still in that country.

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Asf on Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:38 am

    There are private 'security' companies (see gas/oil giants at the first place) and half-legal firms like 'RSB Group' but no actual law basis for private military contractors

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:46 am

    par far wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Private Military Companies are very dangerous and are used currently by the US to do jobs which they can not allow to be done by normal military units, mostly unethical and forbidden actions. Black Water are driving through cities in Iraq and Afghansitan like that is their playground they are killing civilians for fun to provoce firefights, they are terrorists by the very defintion of this word, they use violence to intimidate the people aka terrorism and i am against PMC's they are very dangerous.


    I know that Private Military Companies are dangerous but sometimes you need them to fight fire with fire when you don't enough water like in Ukraine(Russia just can't send in the regular army). The US is using Private Military Companies in Ukraine to do their dirty work for them. Private Military Companies can be very useful, blackwater in Iraq and Afghanistan were doing what they were told to do kill innocent civilians, so someone would shoot back at them and then the people shooting back at them can be called terrorists and the US could justify being there because there are "terrorists" still in that country.  

    You can form a special forces unit that is under direct command of the military and the head of the state and will only act in specific boundaries and will not become Blackwater scum that starts to terrorize civilians just for fun which they do so since more than two decades.

    They will also not need to have insignias or anything, special forces often don't use them anyway when operating abroad, absolutley no point of PMC's except if you want act like a lunatic imperial country that terrorize small countries.

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Asf on Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:12 pm

    You can form a special forces unit that is under direct command of the military and the head of the state and will only act in specific boundaries

    There are such units already

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:46 pm

    Asf wrote:
    You can form a special forces unit that is under direct command of the military and the head of the state and will only act in specific boundaries

    There are such units already

    And that is exactly why i do not understand why do you want russia to have PMC's when they already have special forces that already have training and warfare doctrine for asymmetrical warfare and can performe far better any of such tasks and have direct command from military and logistics of military, where PMC's had to rely on military anyway, so it does not make sense to have PMC's, because a private company will not act or be bound to the government of the country it is located, meaning they could be used by other countries to performe duties that maybe against the interest of russia.

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  NationalRus on Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:39 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Asf wrote:
    You can form a special forces unit that is under direct command of the military and the head of the state and will only act in specific boundaries

    There are such units already

    And that is exactly why i do not understand why do you want russia to have PMC's when they already have special forces that already have training and warfare doctrine for asymmetrical warfare and can performe far better any of such tasks and have direct command from military and logistics of military, where PMC's had to rely on military anyway, so it does not make sense to have PMC's, because a private company will not act or be bound to the government of the country it is located, meaning they could be used by other countries to performe duties that maybe against the interest of russia.

    why do you want to stop them? ther dessicion if they volunteer to fight if thats what they expert at. and ther still more effective and far more flexible then any goverment troops and agencies, ther at the top of the game while doing it on ther own will with no backclash at the "homefront"

    blackwater bashing is nothing but a fucking myth! which people have too feed every now and then so it doesnt die, everything what is done with a gun can go wrong and if it does the concecuenses are deadly! the army fucks up it well tragic but what can you do, if a private organisation does the same we have a fucking sensation which we can exploit litterly forever, one and the same thing gets talked about now for nearly the 6th year

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:32 am

    Blackwater bashing is fully justified... they act like a law unto themselves and can ignore the laws of war because they never seem to be held accountable for crimes that if they were in the military would be considered war crimes.

    Consider them a branch of the CIA that is even less accountable to anyone, though I doubt their main revenue fund source is drugs like the CIA.


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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Mike E on Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:39 am

    GarryB wrote:Blackwater bashing is fully justified... they act like a law unto themselves and can ignore the laws of war because they never seem to be held accountable for crimes that if they were in the military would be considered war crimes.

    Consider them a branch of the CIA that is even less accountable to anyone, though I doubt their main revenue fund source is drugs like the CIA.
    Agreed, they are a bunch of rebel thugs trying to get a buck or two from the US govt. Eventually, most private military companies will rebel and "morph into" a Blackwater of sorts. That is, unless they are directly watched by a government or external force. Look at the incidents created by Blackwater, there are many of them...

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  par far on Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:04 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Blackwater bashing is fully justified... they act like a law unto themselves and can ignore the laws of war because they never seem to be held accountable for crimes that if they were in the military would be considered war crimes.

    Consider them a branch of the CIA that is even less accountable to anyone, though I doubt their main revenue fund source is drugs like the CIA.
    Agreed, they are a bunch of rebel thugs trying to get a buck or two from the US govt. Eventually, most private military companies will rebel and "morph into" a Blackwater of sorts. That is, unless they are directly watched by a government or external force. Look at the incidents created by Blackwater, there are many of them...


    I think Blackater did what the US government told them to do and that was to kill innocent civilians and create chaos, so the US could justify being in Iraq or elsewhere.

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Regular on Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:21 pm

    blackwater is blackwater. Don't paint everyone with the same brush. There are plenty of PMCs around the world who doesn't have such infamous status. Thanks to Blackwater crimes US PMC companies are not welcome.


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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Mike E on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:17 pm

    par far wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Blackwater bashing is fully justified... they act like a law unto themselves and can ignore the laws of war because they never seem to be held accountable for crimes that if they were in the military would be considered war crimes.

    Consider them a branch of the CIA that is even less accountable to anyone, though I doubt their main revenue fund source is drugs like the CIA.
    Agreed, they are a bunch of rebel thugs trying to get a buck or two from the US govt. Eventually, most private military companies will rebel and "morph into" a Blackwater of sorts. That is, unless they are directly watched by a government or external force. Look at the incidents created by Blackwater, there are many of them...


    I think Blackater did what the US government told them to do and that was to kill innocent civilians and create chaos, so the US could justify being in Iraq or elsewhere.  

    Or it was just them abusing their freedom... Military business should be done by the military or government, not some chaos-producing private company.

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    Private military companies

    Post  par far on Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:11 pm

    Russia already has some private military companies, what do you guys think about really expanding them and supporting them. They can be a good foreign policy tool, there was a bill but it was voted down but the polictian who made the bill is fixing it up and bringing it back.






    https://www.rt.com/politics/316276-government-rejects-bill-to-introduce/



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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:13 pm

    par far wrote:Russia already has some private military companies, what do you guys think about really expanding them and supporting them. They can be a good foreign policy tool, there was a bill but it was voted down but the polictian who made the bill is fixing it up and bringing it back.






    https://www.rt.com/politics/316276-government-rejects-bill-to-introduce/



    We discussed that already on some other thread, most are against it since russia isn't some evil empire like US that sends its terrorists.

    Private Military companies are merceneries and since they do not account for a country they are freely counted as terrorists.

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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:45 am

    You could argue that it is a practical and more positive thing for ex special forces soldiers to do after service... but then who wants private armies for people with money in their countries?

    I am sure George Soros would love to set up a mercenary unit there...


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    Re: Russian Private Military Companies

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:53 am

    I guess the other option for these ex personnel I suppose is private security. There are plenty of them in Russia apparently, ones that deal with even just standard security for lets say banks or high profile locations in more dangerous locations. As well, there are the following PMC companies whom already operate in Russia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_military_contractors


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    RUSSIAN MERCENARIES IN SYRIA AND AROUND THE WORLD

    Post  par far on Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:32 am

    First time I heard about Wagner, I never knew Russia had PMC's.

    https://southfront.org/russian-mercenaries-in-syria-and-around-the-world/#disqus_thread

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    Russian Private Military Companies PMC

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:18 pm

    Myth or reality?

    The December 9, 2016 Kremlin celebration of the Fatherland Heroes’ Day brought attention to one of obscure components of Russian clandestine paramilitary capabilities, when a photo featuring President Vladimir Putin and the leadership of the so-called Vagner Private Military Company surfaced on social media.

    Vagner is the pseudonym of Dmitriy Utkin, a retired member of the Russian Armed Forces who at the time of his discharge commanded the 700th Special Operations Detachment of the 2nd Separate Special Operations Brigade of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Ministry of Defense. He has gained experience in PMC operations while employed by the Moran Security Group where he participated in Somalia counter-pirate operations. Vagner’s deputy commander is also a Russian military veteran, Vadim Troshev.

    Vagner represents Russia’s most ambitious experiment with the PMC concept. Elsewhere in the world, PMCs such as the Executive Outcomes and Erik Prince’s original Blackwater, which began as corporate security outfits, have evolved into de-facto extensions of national military power, occupying the niche between covert action and the deployment of regular special operations and elite forces.

    As of this writing, the Russian government has not yet adopted a clear policy concerning the existence of PMCs in Russia. While a bill was introduced before the State Duma that would have provided a legal framework for Russian PMCs, it was tabled after some discussion. It would appear that the Russian government is in a “wait and see” mode, and the ultimate decision will depend on a number of factors. The first is the nature of Russia-West relations in the era of Trump, Brexit, and prospective wins by anti-globalist parties in the EU. Should the relationship evolve in the direction of cooperation rather than confrontation, it would reduce the need for PMCs. The second factor is the Syria experience, which is the the largest and most overt demonstration of the Russian PMCs to date, even though PMCs have been employed in achieving Russian state objectives for over a decade. Their usefulness has been demonstrated in Crimea and the Donbass, where a high number of quasi-PMCs were incorporated into the general concept of operation in order to fulfill missions that could not be performed by the Novorossia militias or regular Russian military forces for military or political reasons.

    Syria is not only a more protracted and high-intensity operation, but also an opportunity to evaluate the relative advantages and drawbacks of relying on PMCs, as opposed to regular special operations forces and other elite formations. In that respect, Syria shows the evolutionary maturation of the PMC concept that gradually came of age during various operations in Central Asia, Caucasus, Crimea, and Donbass. In contrast to the US experience which adopted a top-down model of PMC use, the precursors of the current Russian PMCs arose spontaneously, in response to market demands, as it were, both around Russia’s borders and around the world, and which tapped into a large pool of trained veterans of Afghanistan and Chechnya. Ironically, Russian PMCs owe a lot to the United States or other Western powers which used Russian “privateers” in a variety of operations, including in Iraq. Even Vagner’s operations in Syria are the result of Dmitriy Utkin’s initiative. It is only in the last few years that the Russian Ministry of Defense decided to weave PMCs into the broader array of forces at its disposal, and Vagner’s effectiveness has provided an additional stimulus toward formally institutionalizing the relationship between PMCs and the Russian MOD.

    Since Vagner’s existence or participation in the Syria operation has not been officially acknowledged, there are no reliable reports on the number of Vagner operators or the functions they perform. Some estimates run into as many as 400 operators in the country where they are more likely to see frontline combat than the active duty Russian troops. Vagner also suffered an unspecified number of casualties, including fatalities.

    Finally, there is the question of what relationship will exist between the PMCs, the covert operations community, and the special operations formations on which the PMCs will naturally rely for recruits. The heavy US reliance on relatively undisciplined security contractors during its infamous Global War on Terror had the effect of increasing the death toll among the Iraqi and Afghan civilians who perished at the hands of PMC operators who were not accountable to either US or local laws, and of provoking an outflow of trained cadres from the US special operations units who opted for the far higher salaries and personal freedom that the US PMCs offer.

    What that formalized relationship will look like may never be publicly known, for there are good reasons to maintain a certain level of secrecy surrounding what is, after all, an instrument of clandestine paramilitary action, which may also be a reason why a PMC law has not been formally adopted. However, considering that Vagner operators have received high military decorations for their contributions in Syria, it appears that Russian PMCs are here to say, and that they will enjoy a high level of prominence in the future. The recent talks with Libyan military leaders aboard the Admiral Kuznetsov suggest that Syria is not going to be the last battlefield for Russian PMCs.


    https://southfront.org/russian-mercenaries-in-syria-and-around-the-world/

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