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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 26, 2015 12:07 am

    Interesting indeed. But maybe due to sanctions they couldnt get license? Anyway, fantastic news!
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    Neutrality

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Neutrality on Tue May 26, 2015 10:55 am

    Yeah that was my understanding as well. Thought it would use the ARM-Cortex A57 architecture.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 26, 2015 2:41 pm

    The thing that gets me is that it really isnt what they initially stated it was. My best guess, looking at what they are aiming this chip for, is either going with MIPS for certain applications then ARM, or they are possibly just going to stick to MIPS? I wouldnt see the point of going between both and just sticking to one.

    Hopefully after this, they will aim at their own RISC architecture like MCST with their own VLIW. But this is the right first step. Hopefully they will release civil devices powered with these cores.

    It is mentioned ministry of industry and trade sanctioned the development, which is strange since they also did same for MCST and reading further in, both chips are for similar applications. So why the overlap?

    I am excited to see what is in store in the future.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 26, 2015 8:12 pm

    Serial manufacture of Russian 8-core processor Elbrus to start in 2016 — developer
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    Kyo

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Kyo on Tue May 26, 2015 9:43 pm

    What are the pros and cons of using MIPS vs. ARM processor architecture for baseband or application processors for smartphones and tablets?

    Honestly, there's little "real-world difference" between the two architectures; product design is largely driven by other factors. However, I'd say that availability and existing code base are often the deciding factors in choosing one architecture over another; it can be challenging to buy a sub-10k quantity of high-performance MIPS SoCs, whereas you can easily get an i.MX/OMAP/Sitara/Tegra2/etc. solution; if the necessary OS/software/drivers are only available for one architecture, that will be your architecture.

    Architecture-wise, ARM has fewer registers but more addressing modes. MIPS has more registers, but fewer addressing modes. --> I suppose that MIPS would have a slight performance advantage when the memory bus is slow and you're in a position to take advantage of having more registers.

    Can you identify what is the single biggest constraint anyone has when working on smartphones or tablets? Give yourself a minute to think before reading further..Assuming you got it right...its battery aka power...Since vendors are making the phone "smart" by adding many functions to it, consumers also want to do lot more , but still they don't want to drain the battery out...So any architecture should be power efficient ..As it turns out, ARM processors has the best power efficient processors or in another words they have advantage of in power performance ratio...Now add another dimension to this. You need an OS and android primarily is based on RISC based architectures and so OS portability is important..And next is marketing..ARM did an amazing job in marketing and selling its solutions..It targeted the right segment...MIPS used to have larger share in Settop box markets etc...

    But now MIPS and Intel with ATOM ver2 processor are closing the gap with ARM ...so its matter of time when there will not be much technical advantage going ARM processors...There are also other business factors like pricing, availability and application support which also largely influence a vendors decision to go with a specific architecture...

    sepheronx, kvs, can you translate, pls?
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 26, 2015 9:52 pm

    Pretty much it is a RISC processor vs RISC processor. What made SPARC popular in the past was its efficiencies in access to its instructions that were available, the software designed around it, and its general use in mainframes. No different than others. ARM is like other forms of processors of RISC nature but is apparently better power management in comparrison to its overall performance. add that there is a huge popular base for them due to mobile market and the android os (as well as ios) are built around them. But in the end, a MIPS processor can easily do what arm one does, and vice versa with little differences.

    KVS can probably explain it better than I can.
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    Kyo

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Kyo on Tue May 26, 2015 11:21 pm

    sepheronx wrote: But in the end, a MIPS processor can easily do what arm one does, and vice versa with little differences.

    Thx! That's all what I wanted to know.
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Wed May 27, 2015 12:42 am

    I think the chose MIPS because it derived from the original processors used by SGI back in the day. So it is a serious
    CPU architecture. In particular it looks to me like it has better performance in floating point operations than the ARM
    architecture.

    The Elbrus CPU needs SIMD FP units. Then it will truly kick ass.
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu May 28, 2015 1:02 pm

    http://www.rostec.ru/news/4516582
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu May 28, 2015 2:15 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:http://www.rostec.ru/news/4516582

    So that was more or less leak right there of Elbrus 16C. My bet is it will be an Elbrus 8C but with 16 cores instead. Which is fine. But they need to remember that majority (and I mean majority of software is very poorly coded to do beyond 2 cores these days in proper execution amongst all cores in efficiency. There will need to be a breakthrough in it.

    I also agree with KVS, as it was a very important step that Baikal T had SIMD 128 something that Elbrus needs. Since it appears that Rostec has their hands in both, I have no idea why they didnt opt for it in Elbrus yet. As well, one instruction that actuall gave a big boost to performance for PowerPC and its Nintendo CPU "Espresso" was OOO execution (out of order) which effectively allows the CPU to continue doing operations on other cores when one operation is taking too long and thus can dedicate work done on other cpus to the tasks that are not as complex. It really is a smart system. Something that Rostec should look into.
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    Neutrality

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Neutrality on Thu May 28, 2015 3:30 pm

    So after reading that article it sounds like the next Baikal (Baikal-M) CPU will be based on ARM architecture.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu May 28, 2015 6:21 pm

    I dont see the point really. If they produce mips now, they can accomplish what arm does with mips. Would also save them money.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri May 29, 2015 9:36 pm

    Defense industry shall switch to open source.

    long overdue but good to hear.
    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150529/1067179999.html


    Rostec and China's Huawei will jointly develop it security technologies
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2004608




    sepheronx wrote:I dont see the point really. If they produce mips now, they can accomplish what arm does with mips. Would also save them money.

    not all egs into one basket?
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Fri May 29, 2015 11:26 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I dont see the point really. If they produce mips now, they can accomplish what arm does with mips. Would also save them money.

    It may be a code base issue. There is a lot of software written for ARM. Even though MIPS dates back to the 1990s, it never had the sort of
    large scale adoption. If all one cares about is compiling programs from source code then any decent CPU is enough. But as I am sure you know,
    that is not how this industry works.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Fri May 29, 2015 11:38 pm

    kvs wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:I dont see the point really. If they produce mips now, they can accomplish what arm does with mips. Would also save them money.

    It may be a code base issue.   There is a lot of software written for ARM.   Even though MIPS dates back to the 1990s, it never had the sort of
    large scale adoption.   If all one cares about is compiling programs from source code then any decent CPU is enough.   But as I am sure you know,
    that is not how this industry works.

    Of course not. But it has to start somewhere to be honest. In what I am getting at is that clearly the MIPS works great. Software coding base is another and Russia has been turning away from the western software, not just hardware. And that would mean great opportunities for various programmers not only from Russia but India and China as well (Since China has also moved to the MIPS field with their Loongsong processor). I understand the purpose, but I don't think it is worth it really.

    mutantsushi

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  mutantsushi on Sat May 30, 2015 1:06 am

    Well if you want to make CPUs to go in commercial products like smartphones that are supposed to use
    generally available Android apps from Google Play App Store, yes it's important.
    Sure, China also has MIPS projects, but also pursues commercial ARM projects.
    (Android in fact HAS a MIPS branch maintained by Google, and it may become commercially relevant. Not yet though)
    There is really no difference in software jobs in general, since the issue is recompilation,
    a "hassle factor" to promote local ISA infrastructure is just not going to accomplish much.

    Remember, America's "Silicion Valley" is all about commercial synergies after all.
    Ultimately, swapping MIPS execution units for ARM designs does not impede Russia's larger Semi design/fab projects,
    and if an ARM licence produces profitable commerical product, that helps things in the larger picture.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 30, 2015 1:13 am

    mutantsushi wrote:Well if you want to make CPUs to go in commercial products like smartphones that are supposed to use
    generally available Android apps from Google Play App Store, yes it's important.
    Sure, China also has MIPS projects, but also pursues commercial ARM projects.
    (Android in fact HAS a MIPS branch maintained by Google, and it may become commercially relevant.  Not yet though)
    There is really no difference in software jobs in general, since the issue is recompilation,
    a "hassle factor" to promote local ISA infrastructure is just not going to accomplish much.

    Remember, America's "Silicion Valley" is all about commercial synergies after all.
    Ultimately, swapping MIPS execution units for ARM designs does not impede Russia's larger Semi design/fab projects,
    and if an ARM licence produces profitable commerical product, that helps things in the larger picture.

    There are general costs and resources used when maintaining two different lines of architectures. Intel found that out the hard way. Seems MCST has not (since they keep the SPARC line and the VLIW line going). MIPS have been used for various commercial purposes from game consoles to even mobile devices plenty in recent past. If what you say is that google already has a MIPS sector for commercial purposes, then at that point, switching to ARM becomes even less relevant.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  mutantsushi on Sat May 30, 2015 1:45 am

    I'm saying it exists but you can't trivially download majority of Android apps, thus not commercially relevant at present moment.
    (for consumer-focused software platform markets, as opposed to niches which don't involve consumer software market)
    I actually think MIPS has interesting potential (aside from current niche), considering Android potential as well as other OS,
    but that is obviously not the same as short term commercial viability...
    I would say comparison to multiple competing Intel proprietary ISAs is not relevant, because this is not about pushing new ISA but about
    cashing in on existing ARM market with instantly viable commercial product, which MIPS apparently is not at current moment (outside existing niche).
    The fact they are choosing to go ahead with it while already having MIPS projects (and knowing all costs involved) suggests there is a good reason to do so.

    The new non-von-Neumann MultiClet project that basically obsoletes OOO Branch Predictors seems really interesting and potential long-term...
    Unclear exactly what niches it will ultimately be applicable to, but even starting small it can eventually expand if enabled by newer tech re: interconnects.


    Last edited by mutantsushi on Sat May 30, 2015 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 30, 2015 1:48 am

    mutantsushi wrote:I'm saying it exists but you can't trivially download majority of Android apps, thus not commercially relevant at present moment.
    (for consumer-focused software platform markets, as opposed to niches which don't involve consumer software market)
    I actually think MIPS has interesting potential (aside from current niche), considering Android potential as well as other OS,
    but that is obviously not the same as short term commercial viability...
    I would say comparison to multiple competing Intel proprietary ISAs is not relevant, because this is not about pushing new ISA but about
    cashing in on existing ARM market with instantly viable commercial product, which MIPS apparently is not at current moment (outside existing niche).
    The fact they are choosing to go ahead with it while already having MIPS projects (and knowing all costs involved) suggests there is a good reason to do so.

    The new non-Neumann ISA that basically obsoletes OOO Branch Predictors seems really interesting and potential long-term...

    Ah, you talking of Multiclet processor? Cause that non-Neumann processor is very interesting.

    Yes, I guess Baikal could cash in on the whole mobile phone and tablet market without huge investments. They will probably do basic development in it to cash in and invest further in their other processor products. Possibly.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:59 am

    Russian supercomputer based on 256 processors Elbrus
    According to the website of the Russian developer of processors and microelectronics MCST, submitted in the spring of 2015 first Soviet mass-production rack server based on a 4-core Elbrus-4C is an integral part of the new computing building Supercomputers with performance of 13.8 teraflops! New Russian computer system is a rack-mounted cluster based on domestic servers, in which a total combined 64 module 4 processors each. All 256 processors 4-core Elbrus-4C (800 MHz per core) on domestic motherboards, where the slots of RAM installed dies a total volume of 6 TB, and the total amount of disk space of the entire complex is 32 TB. The performance of such computing systems Supercomputers equal to 13.8 teraflops. At the end of 2015 is expected to create the next generation of Russian computing systems based on 8-core processor Elbrus-8C (1.3 GHz per core). The developers also acknowledge the ongoing processor Elbrus-16C and a series of decisions based on it.
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:29 pm

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/64331/

    The 8 core Elbrus CPU is now sampling. It has a frequency of 1.3 GHz and a nominal 250 gigaflop rating.
    The 8 core Intel i7-5960X has a nominal 350 gigaflop rating.

    I believe the higher flop rating for the Intel is due solely to the fact that it can do SIMD 64 bit floating
    operations. The Elbrus flop count reduces by a factor of two when doing 64 bit math. This should be
    urgently addressed. Even so you can see the VLIW performance when a 1.3 GHz CPU manages to get
    flop rates close to a 3-3.5 GHz CPU.

    It is ironic that a VLIW processor was not equipped with vector floating point. I think they were too
    conservative in the design targets back in the 1990s and this has become a legacy burden. The need
    to expand the floating point width from 32 bits to 64 bits and they need to include vector FPUs.
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    Neutrality

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Neutrality on Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:08 pm

    kvs wrote:http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/64331/

    The 8 core Elbrus CPU is now sampling.  It has a frequency of 1.3 GHz and a nominal 250 gigaflop rating.
    The 8 core Intel i7-5960X has a nominal 350 gigaflop rating.

    I believe the higher flop rating for the Intel is due solely to the fact that it can do SIMD 64 bit floating
    operations.   The Elbrus flop count reduces by a factor of two when doing 64 bit math.    This should be
    urgently addressed.   Even so you can see the VLIW performance when a 1.3 GHz CPU manages to get
    flop rates close to a 3-3.5 GHz CPU.

    It is ironic that a VLIW processor was not equipped with vector floating point.   I think they were too
    conservative in the design targets back in the 1990s and this has become a legacy burden.   The need
    to expand the floating point width from 32 bits to 64 bits and they need to include vector FPUs.

    Baby steps. Also, consider for a moment the patents that Intel holds. AMD lincenses its x86 CPU architecture from Intel and Intel licenses the 64bit architecture from AMD.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:57 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    kvs wrote:http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/64331/

    The 8 core Elbrus CPU is now sampling.  It has a frequency of 1.3 GHz and a nominal 250 gigaflop rating.
    The 8 core Intel i7-5960X has a nominal 350 gigaflop rating.

    I believe the higher flop rating for the Intel is due solely to the fact that it can do SIMD 64 bit floating
    operations.   The Elbrus flop count reduces by a factor of two when doing 64 bit math.    This should be
    urgently addressed.   Even so you can see the VLIW performance when a 1.3 GHz CPU manages to get
    flop rates close to a 3-3.5 GHz CPU.

    It is ironic that a VLIW processor was not equipped with vector floating point.   I think they were too
    conservative in the design targets back in the 1990s and this has become a legacy burden.   The need
    to expand the floating point width from 32 bits to 64 bits and they need to include vector FPUs.

    Baby steps. Also, consider for a moment the patents that Intel holds. AMD lincenses its x86 CPU architecture from Intel and Intel licenses the 64bit architecture from AMD.

    You got that bavkwards, but essentially you are right. Reason why the Baikal MIPS processor gets SIMD64 simply because of licensing. MCST has to do workarounds atm. But clearly from what is being said, this processor proves the high efficiency of the ElbrusE2K architecture. Hopefully in future, next architecture will have many more features like KVS says.

    Not to mention Elbrus 16C is next.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:36 am

    In the Moscow region completed the construction of a plant of printed circuit boards
    Construction company PSJ from the Czech Republic completed the construction in the suburban town of Dubna. Now there would be a new plant CJSC Svyaz engineering" for the production of computer circuit boards. The official launch of the plant will take place in the near future. In the implementation of the project was invested 46,21 million euros. The construction of this industrial facility has become the largest export order for a turnkey company. Directly in addition to the construction company was engaged in the installation of production lines and equipment of the entire complex. wrote:
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    Neutrality

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Neutrality on Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:52 pm

    Excellent article about "Baikal Electronics": http://top.rbc.ru/technology_and_media/08/07/2015/559a74c69a79471609b5a688 (How "Baikal Eletronics" plans to compete with Intel)

    Here are some highlights:

    -2 billion roubles pumped into R&D of the first domestic chip (Baikal-T1). That money was also used for other purposes for the establishment of the company
    -25% is owned by T-Nano and 75% is owned by T-Platforms.
    -In May 2015 the company signed a contract for the delivery of supercomputers to the German Forschingszentrum Julich compute centre.
    -Article mentions other foreign customers like the State University of New York at Stony Brook, Riga Technical University, Finnish CSC-IT Center for Science (supercomputer cluster).
    -1,5 billion roubles in revenue of which 71 million roubles are pure profit.
    -The entire intellectual research and know-how is done in Russia and the chip is produced at TSMC (TSMC owns 45% of the global market).
    -The first Baikal CPU (Baikal-T1) is used in home appliance products (think washing machines, refrigerators and other important household products), modern CNC machines, routers and other various products.
    -Right now the company has almost 1,000 engineering smaples which will be sent to potential buyers for further testing at the end of this month (July 2015)
    -The company plans to release their next chip, the Baikal-M, before the end of 2016 for use in personal computers
    -Article mentions that right now Russian companies almost completely purchase their CPUs from both Intel and AMD. 79% of the orders go to Intel. The Russian CPU market is worth 3,89 billion dollars.
    -Plans to release the Baikal-MS, their upcoming CPU for mini servers, before the end of 2017.
    -"Baikal Electronics" is in talks with "Yota Devices", Russian smartphone producer. If the companies reach an agreement, "Baikal Eletronics" will start a line of smartphone CPUs.
    -The company couldn't comment on the price of the current chip. However, assured it would be according to "market prices". "Rikor" (a Russian server company) estimates the prices will start at approx. 50 dollars.
    -Plans to deliver up to 100,000 CPUs in 2016. Which equals to 5 million dollars.
    -In 3-5 years the company plans to have several percent of the global market.
    -Chips will be sold to Germany, Israel, China, Brazil, Argentina and the UAE.
    -According to an American research company, IC Insights, the semi-conductor market will be worth 87 billion dollars in 2018. "Baikal Electronics" is able to get at least 1 billion dollars of that market.
    -The most important selling point of their MIPS chips is the very high computational power, while using minimal energy, according to the company.
    -Interest and demand in their chip is higher than they anticipated. Approximately 100 Russian and foreign companies have shown interest.

    Hopefully I have the most important pieces covered. I'm very excited about this company cheers

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