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    Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

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    higurashihougi
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    Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:03 pm

    Story 1: M113 armoured vehicle

    M113 in Vietnam War

    M113 was first used in Vietnam at the beginning of 1960s decades, as a role of mechanized infantry and amoured transporter (in Vietnam the tactics is called "thiết xa vận", 鉄車運). In other words, it is some sort of a "battlefield taxi".

    The two first companies of Saigon goverment using M113 was formed on 30th Feb 1962, with the total number of M113 were 30 pieces. The two units was sent to the battlefields at Mekong River Delta. More and more M113 appeared in Vietnam battlefield, both in Saigon forces and in the U.S. forces. It became the main amoured vehicle that Saigon goverment used in confronts against the Vietcong and People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN). In 1975, it is estimated that there is about 1,500 M113s in Saigon goverment's asset.


    M113 in the assets of Saigon goverment armed forces.


    M113 on Saigon streets in November 1963.

    During the early phase of the war, M113 caused great difficuties against the PAVN and inflicted great casualties against them. After all, the PAVN at South Vietnam during that time are mainly guerilla with small firearms, mines, and grenades, and the "steel monsters" like M113 was something hard to fight against. The M113 armour can withstand small firearms, it also have great mobility, speed, and cross-country capability. Indeed, the M113 had little difficulties in crossing the rivers, channels and creeks which are numerous in the Mekong Delta.



    But then, as time passed, the Vietcong and PAVN managed to gain more experiences and found out the methods to destroy M113, using firearms, mines, explosive, and extensive system of trenches, obstacles, and traps. In the later periods, the PAVN guerillas manged to received anti-tank weapons like B-40 and B-41 (a.k.a RPG), PGN-2. As a results, the number of destroyed M113 drastically inreased. The causualties of mechanized troops was so high that the U.S. and Saigon goverment had to install additonal sandbags, applique armor, anti-RPG slat armours.

    It is said that the PAVN had sold the wrecks of destroyed M113s to the local scrap dealers as additional income, and they managed to gain a great deal of income... because a lot of M113s were destroyed.


    M113s were destroyed by anti-tank weapons and penetrating firearms bullets.

    M113 in the People's Army of Vietnam


    PAVN's M113s in the war against Khmer Rouge.

    After 1975, the PAVN managed to recover several hundreds of M113s from Saigon goverments. All of them were redeployed inside the ranks of PAVN and participated in later conflicts, for example the war against Cambodia's Khmer Rouge.

    The PAVN pays a great regards to her old enemies, considers the M113 as a very useful and capable AFV. Vietnamese soldiers claimed that the M113s are highly mobile, fast, and easy to drive, thanks to the hydraulic drive system. M113 played a significant role in the victory against Khmer Rouge, and sometimes its performance surpassed the contemporary Soviet and Chinese AFVs.

    Modification and Modernization



    But due to years of wars and long period of insufficient funds, there were times that Vietnamese M113s' conditions degenerated into a teribble level. A recent estimation claimed that there was only 200 Vietnamese M113s could be able to operate. Much of the Vietnamese M113s are kept in storage, waiting for refurbishing, some are being sent overseas for maintenance and fixing. Some are being modified and modernized by domestic weapon factories.

    Recently, the PAVN has been trying various methods to modernize the M113, or replacing the US weapons and systems by domestic ones - in the circumstance that the U.S. weaponary embargo has not been lifted yet. For example, the Browning machine gun was replaced by Russian 12.7mm NSV. Domestic 106mm and 75mm recoiless gun were also fitted into the M113. In 2001, about 80 M113s were refurbished and modernized by Vietnamese factories.

    On 23 May 2014, several "Vietnamization" M113 were tested in the K3 test field of Military Industry Department. The modificated M113s were fitted with 12.7mm NSV for short-range AA, SPG-9 for anti-tank role, and 7.62mm PKMSN for soft targets. The test was considered successful, all the M113s did fullfil all the tasks and missions assigned for the test.


    Vietnamese M113 during the test on 23 May 2014


    Discussion about the use of SPG-9 on the M113
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:09 pm

    Story 2: The "King of Battlefield" M107

    The M107 175mm SPG, one of the biggest gun in the U.S. army, was sent into Vietnam in 1965. It tasks was to compete against the PAVN's 130mm M46 towed-gun which outranged all kinds of U.S. and Saigon cannons at that time.

    The M107 are gifted with a very long range (34km), longer than the M46, and an extremely huge firepower. It can fire a 66kg shell which generates a 50 metre blast radius. Such immense power generates the nickname "King of Battlefield" for the M107.


    A captured M107 in the museum. The barrel was painted with the letters "Sấm sét" (Thunderbolt) and "Vua chiến trường" (King of Battlefield).

    The M107s participated in many large-scale military operations of the U.S. troops and the Saigon Troops. They witnessed the battle of Khe Sanh, the Lam Sơn 719 campaign, the fierce fighting at Quảng Trị 1972, and many others. On 22nd June 1967, several M107s opened fire from the southern bank of Bến Hải rivers, caused large civillian casualties. The cannons also fired the special bullets with propaganda papers in order to crush the willpower of the PAVN.


    M107 at Khe Sanh, 1967

    However, the M107's effeciency was not as high as expected. M107 has greater ranger and immense firepower, but the fire rate is very low (2 shot/min) and the accuracy at large distance is also low. It is also difficult and complicated to use a M107. Meanwhile, M46 has a much faster firerate (5-8shot/min), better capability of indirect fire, and good anti-tank ability. As a result, the expected "King" of the battle was beaten in the battle. Large numbers of Saigon's M107s were also destroyed by the PAVN.

    The PAVN also captured a number of M107 during the war. For example at Quảng Trị in March 1972, South Vietnam's 56th regiment surrendered and all its equipments, including 4 M107s, fall into the assets of North Vietnam. During the Ban Mê Thuột campaign in 1975, the PAVN captured another 12 M107s.

    The captured M107s, in turn, were used against their former owners, which great psychological effects. It is said that many Saigon troops were frightened by the sound of M107's firing and then ran away or surrendered.

    After 1975, the PAVN managed to achieve an additional number of M107s. They reorganized all the captured M107s into a strategic artilerry battation. The Vietnamese M107 then participated in the war against Khmer Rouge.


    Vietnamese military officers in a presentation about one of their own M107, which is in storage.

    However, after long period of wars and insufficent maintenance, the Vietnamese M107s are in very bad conditions. Due to insufficent funds and the military sancition of the U.S., Vietnam faces many difficulties to find the spare parts of the M107. At a results, all the M107s are in storage and rarely appear in the public media. Nonetheless, Vietnamese army managed to fix several parts of the cannon using domestic material. For example, the hydraulic lift in the cannon was replaced by similar parts in the excavators or the cranes. The cannon's chassis was also more or less fixed, and the electric system was completely revamped. Therefore, the Vietnamese M107s although in bad conditions can still manage to function when needed.



    With the warmer and warmer relationship between Vietnam and the U.S. many people expected that the military sanction against Vietnam will be fully lifted, and the U.S. will help Vietnam in revamping its M107s. Well, but then, time will tell...
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:56 am

    Little bonus: Images about Vietnam's Russian IMR-2

    It is said that Vietnam has two of them.



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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:00 pm

    Great thread Higurashihoughi! - Very interesting, keep it up! Very Happy

    I still love the M113 ( love), more so than any other military ground vehicle, including Russian ones... It was one of the best armored vehicles designed ever. - Low weight + wide tracks = low ground pressure, it is shaped like a box allowing it to be very versatile, it has some of the best all-around mobility, the armor is adequate considering its weight, it could swim, could be dropped by plane etc. IMHO, the US Army will be far worse and less flexible without it, and instead they are either getting the terrible turret less-bradley, or the absolute turd-on-tracks they call the Stryker-tr!
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:41 am

    Mike E wrote:Great thread Higurashihoughi! - Very interesting, keep it up! Very Happy

    I still love the M113 ( love), more so than any other military ground vehicle, including Russian ones... It was one of the best armored vehicles designed ever. - Low weight + wide tracks = low ground pressure, it is shaped like a box allowing it to be very versatile, it has some of the best all-around mobility, the armor is adequate considering its weight, it could swim, could be dropped by plane etc. IMHO, the US Army will be far worse and less flexible without it, and instead they are either getting the terrible turret less-bradley, or the absolute turd-on-tracks they call the Stryker-tr!

    There are people expect that the U.S. may help Vietnam in revamping the current M113, since the military sanction against Vietnam is gradually lifted. Very Happy

    Honestly I am not very sure which kinds of weapons Vietnam can buy from the U.S. Because U.S. weapons are usually not cheap, and Vietnamese facilities are more compatible with Russian system.
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:29 am

    actually the base armour of the M113 was rubbish... the sides could be penetrated by F1 grenade fragments.

    Most M113s still in service are covered in add on armour for a reason.

    the box shape was a poor shape ballistically. For internal space it was great, but deflecting penetrators and maximising armour effectiveness straight sides was  poor choice.

    Otherwise it was much better than a truck or walking.

    The main difference is that these weren't cheap either so when Soviet troops were either in BMPs or BTRs some US troops were riding M113s, while many walked or went in Deuce and a half trucks.

    Compared with a BTR-60 the M113 had probably slightly better armour, and had better mobility on very bad terrain, but the BTR had much better mobility on roads, including very rough roads and of course had an enclosed turret with a much more powerful standard armament.

    The main advantage of the M113 was the powered rear ramp for rapid exit and entrance, though especially with the BTR-80 there is something to be said for being able to exit via the sides of a vehicle if you know which side you are being ambushed from....

    BTW x2 regarding this thread... keep it up.. Smile


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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:27 am

    Story 3: M2A1 105mm gun


    A M2A1 gun in Vietnam's museum

    History

    M2A1 gun is amongst the first U.S. weapons services inside the Vietnam's People's Army (PAVN). It was used in both the war against France and U.S., and it has a great reputation amongst the PAVN personnel.

    The first M2A1 regiment of the PAVN, the 45th artillery regiment, was established in January 1953, three years after the victory at Border Offensive of 1950. That offensive enabled Vietnam to take control of China-Vietnam border, which facilitate the flow of aids and weapons from the Communist China.

    It is interesting to know that, the very first weapons which Vietnam received from China were actually made from U.S. Actually these weapons are captured from the Kuomintang troops, and due to an agreement between the USSR and China, Beijing had to send all these trophies to the PAVN. USSR promised to provide China a lot of heavy equipments as a compensation. That is how the U.S. M2A1 gun managed to enter the PAVN services.


    Vietnam's M2A1 was pulled BY BARE HANDS into the battlefield of Điện Biên Phủ

    Back to the Vietnamese 45th artillery regiment, the very first land artillery regiments of Vietnam... the units are equipped with 20 M2A1s from China, and 4 M2A1 captured from the French. The unit was secretly transferred from China and then redeployed into the battlefield of Điện Biên Phủ... by pure hands. Yes, the M2A1s were pulled into Điện Biên Phủ by bare hands. The Vietnamese cannot use heavy transporting equipments due to their lack of funds, due to the difficults terrains, and due to the needs of camouflage. The deployment and re-deployment of these M2A1s were very exhausting, especially since the assault plan had to be changed due to the situations.



    Vietnam's M2A1s in the battle of Điện Biên Phủ

    Nonetheless, the Vietnamese finally manged to deploy the artilleries in right position. In order to increase the effeciency, the M2A1s are positioned very close to French positions, only 5-7 kilometres away. Such close distance enable the solidiers to fire at very high accuracy. The camouflage was carefully prepared, and the cannons were positioned in scattered positions in order to avoid France's detections.

    The French was completely surprise to see Vietnamese artilleries in such positions, and was also surprise to witness the high accuracy of Vietnamese artilleries units. In the battle of Điện Biên Phủ, Vietnam only had to fire about 15,000 - 20,000 shells of M2A1.

    In the war against the U.S. M2A1 continued to play an important role inside the PAVN. Actually, M2A1 served in both sides of the wars. For example, Saigon goverment in 1975 had 38 M2A1 battalions, each battalions had 18 pieces. The PAVN had total 34 regiments, brigades, and 17 battalions with most of the artillery pieces were M2A1s. The M2A1 gun witnessed many major battles in the Vietnam war, for example the 1975 offensives which end the existences of Saigon goverments. M2A1's effeciency was highly praised by the PAVN.

    Maintenance and Modernization


    Current Vietnamese M2A1

    After 1975, Vietnam managed to captured a large number of M2A1s and continued to use them at the operational level. However, much of the M2A1 are more or less damaged. For example, the aiming telescopes and systems were either destroyed by the Saigon goverments, or damaged during the usage. The decreased conditions of M2A1 threatened the capability of Vietnamese army.

    In 2013, the PAVN decided to revamp their M2A1 assets. The modernization was carried out by Z133 factory from the Department of Military Industry. The main targets in modernization are the aiming systems and aiming telescope, which are most severely damaged. The revamping suffers from many difficulties due to the differences between the metric scale used by Vietnam, and the British scale used by the U.S. In other words, Vietnam had to converted all the statistics from British standards to metric standards.

    Nonetheless, the PAVN finally mastered the technologies and started to manufactured the domestic aiming systems. The new aiming telescopes and system, named M21A1CT, are now being used in the current Vietnamese M2A1s.


    Chit and Chat with friends

    GarryB wrote:actually the base armour of the M113 was rubbish... the sides could be penetrated by F1 grenade fragments.

    Most M113s still in service are covered in add on armour for a reason.

    the box shape was a poor shape ballistically. For internal space it was great, but deflecting penetrators and maximising armour effectiveness straight sides was poor choice.

    Otherwise it was much better than a truck or walking.

    I have heard several opinions which criticized the armour of M113.

    Some peopla said that usage of M113 is a mistake, because M113 is a vehicle with APC level of armour, but was used with the role of IFV.

    In the post above I mentioned that in the later phase of the war, the PAVN had very little difficulties in penetrating M113 armour by firearms, grenades, bazookas, and mines.

    But it is the PAVN themselves who praises the effectiveness of the M113. They like the M113 very much.

    Israel has recently proposed a modernization package for Vietnam with very thick additional armoure. But Vietnam considered that upgrade is not cost-effective and refuse.

    Here, Israel upgrade package



    Bonus image of Vietnamese M113

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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:56 pm

    Bonus story: weapons of the Vietnamese team in the regional/international military shooting competitions.

    Besides the common Russian-made weapons usually seen in the Vienamese army, Vietnam's national military shooting team is also equipped with many exotic weapons originated from the West, for example:

    1)FN FNC:

    Full-length version

    Carbine version

    2)FN MAG


    3)Negev NG7


    4)Galil ACE:
    This weapon is domestically produced in Vietnam, and it is gradually replacing the Vietnamese AKs and AKMs (I am sorry, AK cry  cry ). The Vietnamese military shooting team is using two versions of Galil ACE: the ACE 23 with NATO 5.56mm caliber, and the domestic produced ACE 32 with 7.62mm caliber.

    The domestic produced ACE 32 has just entered the service of the shooting team recently. It is said that 50 of the ACE 32 were transfered to the shooting team and were successfully tested.


    Galil ACE 32

    Galil ACE 23

    5)Products Česká zbrojovka Uherský Brod (CZ)

    From right to left: CZ Scorpion Evo 3, CZ-805 Bren A2, CZ-805 Bren A1

    May I ask, is this a version of the K-54 (aka Chinese copy of the TT-33) ?
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:28 am

    But it is the PAVN themselves who praises the effectiveness of the M113. They like the M113 very much.

    There is no such thing as a vehicle with armour that will protect those inside from anything.

    Not having super armour encourages the troops to not want to stay inside where they are of course a concentrated target but get out and meet the enemy.

    I suspect the PAVN are the type of soldiers who want to get out of the box and fight the enemy rather than sit back and do the job with long range weapons.

    If that is the case then the M113 in its original form would suit much better than a heavier slower version of the same thing.

    The M113 has never been an IFV and has always been an APC.

    It is a BTR, not a BMP, and as such it needs mobility and speed and moderate firepower.... which it has.

    BTW ACE 23 is just an AK in a smaller calibre.


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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Mike E on Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:50 am

    GarryB wrote:actually the base armour of the M113 was rubbish... the sides could be penetrated by F1 grenade fragments.

    Most M113s still in service are covered in add on armour for a reason.

    the box shape was a poor shape ballistically. For internal space it was great, but deflecting penetrators and maximising armour effectiveness straight sides was  poor choice.

    Otherwise it was much better than a truck or walking.

    The main difference is that these weren't cheap either so when Soviet troops were either in BMPs or BTRs some US troops were riding M113s, while many walked or went in Deuce and a half trucks.

    Compared with a BTR-60 the M113 had probably slightly better armour, and had better mobility on very bad terrain, but the BTR had much better mobility on roads, including very rough roads and of course had an enclosed turret with a much more powerful standard armament.

    The main advantage of the M113 was the powered rear ramp for rapid exit and entrance, though especially with the BTR-80 there is something to be said for being able to exit via the sides of a vehicle if you know which side you are being ambushed from....

    BTW x2 regarding this thread... keep it up.. Smile
    It was more than adequate at first, because weapons were built for destroying RHA and not Ai. You have to keep in mind that the M113 wasn't meant to be heavily protected, that would ruin it completely... Plus, the BTR and such of the day had the same problem.

    Yep, thankfully not a whole lot though... The newer models such as the A3 have a more powerful and economical engine to help tug around the added weight.

    It is a trade-off... IMHO, they could have sloped it out wards a bit, but that would have made it wider. Not good for a vehicle whose goal is mobility. Either way the box shape it perfect for being modular and flexible, there is a reason it can do just about anything...

    Obviously... 

    The M113 is cheap by today's standards, it is also reliable and cheap to maintain... Never mind that the US produced thousands of them. 

    IMHO opinion the M113 was far superior... It didn't have any major flaws, unlike the BTR-60 and even -70 (gas tanks.....). Plus I'd take the better off-road mobility, than on-road where it still performs excellently... The flexible design of the M113 would allow it to fit just about any armament/turret, so that complaint is unjustified. 

    Agreed... That furthered its flexibility as well.

    All they need, is a newer design that shares the same goal and ideologies. - Lightweight, adaptable, mobile, affordable, air transportable and droppable, having the ability to swim etc. It was so darn flexible!
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:26 am

    Bonus story: Pistols serving in the PAVN and Vietnamese police

    1)K-54 (Chinese version of TT-34)





    K-54 is the Chinese copied version of the Soviet TT-34. The name K-54 basically mean "Type 1954". It is the most popular and most common pistol in the Vietnamese army. In Vietnam, the K-54 pistol is usually equipped for the junior officers or the personal guards. Although having a sheer age, there no sign implies that the K-54 will be retired soon.


    An officer is performing the K-54 shooting test level 1.




    This is a system used in the K-54 shooting test level 5. It includes a camera incorporated under the gun, and the computer software to calculate the expected the "bullet"'s trajectory using the image sent from camera, and the device which created an artificial recoil. Using this system, the trainee can stimulate a real gun fire without using any kinds of ammo.

    2)K-59 (aka Makarov Pistol)



    Similar to the K-54, the name K-59 originated from the Chinese designation, means "Type 1959".

    Compared to the K-54, the K-59 is less widely seen in the PAVN. They are only equipped to the senior officers or above. But the K-59 witnesses extensive service in the Vietnamese police.


    The Vietnamese policemen in a K-59 shooting competition in 2013

    3)CZ-83:



    CZ-83 is the exported version of Czechoslovakia CZ-82. Being a upgraded version of K-59, the CZ-83 made it existence in Vietnam at the late 1980s. Compared to the K-59 and K-54, the CZ-83 has better accuracy and better aiming capability in the night thanks to the light-reflecting aim devices.

    The CZ-83 is mainly used by the female police officers and seems to be more suitable to the woman.





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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Mike E on Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:03 pm

    Girls N' Guns! lol1

    Thanks for more content!

    Now that the weapons restriction by the West are being lifted, what do you think will happen to NAM's forces? - Buy US weapons etc.

    - I "love me some" Pho soup... Not kidding, here in the Silicon Valley area, there are *hundreds* of Vietnamese restaurants!
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:04 pm

    It isn't right to compare an M113 to a BTR. The MTLB is a much better equivalent.
    the USSR didn't develop any more tracked APCs after the BTR-50 because their doctrined called for their complete replacement by IFVs. They viewed true lightly armed APCs as supercheap expendable gun trucks, something the US army didn't understand when designing the stryker.

    Nevertheless, the M113 together with 12,7mm+ modernized MTLB variants are the best trakced APCs in the world.

    Did you know the M113 had numerous IFV variants of it that had the same armament as the bradley and complete superiority in other fields yet was cancelled due to corporate corruption.
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Mike E on Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:48 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:It isn't right to compare an M113 to a BTR. The MTLB is a much better equivalent.
    the USSR didn't develop any more tracked APCs after the BTR-50 because their doctrined called for their complete replacement  by IFVs. They viewed true lightly armed APCs as supercheap expendable gun trucks, something the US army didn't understand when designing the stryker.

    Nevertheless, the M113 together with 12,7mm+ modernized MTLB variants are the best trakced APCs in the world.

    Did you know the M113 had numerous IFV variants of it that had the same armament as the bradley and complete superiority in other fields yet was cancelled due to corporate corruption.

    Yes and no... Despite being tacked/wheeled, they share the same goal of transporting troops safely... You are right about the MTLB being a better compassion, but that itself has many design differences.

    Yep! All they need is a good modernization, and they will be back to business! - Though a few design changes would hurt either...

    AIFV!

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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:40 am

    Mike E wrote:Girls N' Guns! lol1

    Thanks for more content!

    Now that the weapons restriction by the West are being lifted, what do you think will happen to NAM's forces? - Buy US weapons etc.

    - I "love me some" Pho soup... Not kidding, here in the Silicon Valley area, there are *hundreds* of Vietnamese restaurants!

    Honestly I do not know. Most of the Vietnamese weapons systems are Russian-origin, and as you can see, the Russian and U.S. weapon system are not very compatible.

    There are several articles which suggested that Vietnam may buy the P-3C Orion and the Oliver Hazard Perry warship from the U.S.

    For me, I think Vietnam should have some sort of contracts with the U.S. about the American weapons inside the PAVN, for example the M113, M107, UH Huey, Mxx, or else.

    I strongly suggest that you should go to Vietnam and eat the food there. The flavour and spices is stronger and more difference than the Vietnamese food in the West. Probably because, in the West people do not use a lot of flavour or season powder.

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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  partizan on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:51 am

    Question for our Vietnamese frend. Some times ago I read something aobut 4 memeber spetsnaz team who eneterd Vietnam in late sixties just to test new dragunov snaiper for russian army in live battle condition. Maybe this is ot, or not, but if you have any knowledge about that, from vietnamese sources would be nice to share with us.
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:56 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Girls N' Guns! lol1

    Thanks for more content!

    Now that the weapons restriction by the West are being lifted, what do you think will happen to NAM's forces? - Buy US weapons etc.

    - I "love me some" Pho soup... Not kidding, here in the Silicon Valley area, there are *hundreds* of Vietnamese restaurants!

    Honestly I do not know. Most of the Vietnamese weapons systems are Russian-origin, and as you can see, the Russian and U.S. weapon system are not very compatible.

    There are several articles which suggested that Vietnam may buy the P-3C Orion and the Oliver Hazard Perry warship from the U.S.

    For me, I think Vietnam should have some sort of contracts with the U.S. about the American weapons inside the PAVN, for example the M113, M107, UH Huey, Mxx, or else.

    I strongly suggest that you should go to Vietnam and eat the food there. The flavour and spices is stronger and more difference than the Vietnamese food in the West. Probably because, in the West people do not use a lot of flavour or season powder.

    I respect you but i can not understand how you as a vietnamese are so eagerly and willingly want to make USA as your partner when they are the ones who committed genocide in your country and till this date and in future in your country people are dying because of dioxins like Agent orange has still birth defects and dead births and completley fucked up in several regions of vietnam the genetic pool of the civil population and babies are born with such horrible defects that it is painful to watch.
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:37 am

    IMHO opinion the M113 was far superior... It didn't have any major flaws, unlike the BTR-60 and even -70 (gas tanks.....). Plus I'd take the better off-road mobility, than on-road where it still performs excellently... The flexible design of the M113 would allow it to fit just about any armament/turret, so that complaint is unjustified.

    Comparing the M113 to the old BTR-60, both had similar armour protection... ie not much better than small arms fire and splinters. The BTR-60 was every bit as mobile as the M113 and had the advantage that if it ran over a small mine it would likely lose a wheel but not lose its mobility like the M113 would if it lost a track.

    Standard armament of each vehicle was single 50 cal in unprotected mount for the M113 and 14.5mm HMG plus 30 cal coaxial in an armoured turret... pretty clear which is superior.

    BTR being wheeled was cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate and is fully amphibous.

    The M113s aluminium armour tends to burn when the vehicle catches fire.

    You are right about the MTLB being a better compassion, but that itself has many design differences.

    MTLB is a prime mover that would be more likely to be used towing large guns and their crews around the battlefield. It would be used as a troop transport in colder regions where deep snow was an issue because it tended to handle deep snow better than the heavier BMP, but was not normally used as a troop carrier.



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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:53 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I respect you but i can not understand how you as a vietnamese are so eagerly and willingly want to make USA as your partner when they are the ones who committed genocide in your country and till this date and in future in your country people are dying because of dioxins like Agent orange has still birth defects and dead births and completley fucked up in several regions of vietnam the genetic pool of the civil population and babies are born with such horrible defects that it is painful to watch.

    Why not ?

    The criminals was the U.S. goverment. U.S. people are innocent. The people are our friends.

    There is a lot of U.S. people who fought against the Vietnam war and expressed the support for Hanoi.

    A great number of ex-war U.S. soldiers have went to Vietnam for a visit and to apologize for what have happened in the war.

    In this forum we also have a number of U.S. friends, too.

    Hanoi's policy is that Vietnam are eager to make friends with all countries. As long as they do not threaten our sovereignty and independence.
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:16 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Hanoi's policy is that Vietnam are eager to make friends with all countries. As long as they do not threaten our sovereignty and independence.

    Tell me a single country that is not threatent by USA if they are not going to do what Washington tells them to do?

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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Asf on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:28 pm

    It would be used as a troop transport in colder regions

    On all types a harsh terrain, actually. Say, it is used by nowadays russian mountain motor rifles on Caucasus (it isn't much snow there, a lot of mud though)


    better than the heavier BMP

    You are wrong - MTLBs are used instead of wheeled BTRs, not BMPs. BMPs are used throughout the country.


    Tell me a single country that is not threatent by USA if they are not going to do what Washington tells them to do?

    Israel?
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:48 pm

    Asf wrote:
    Tell me a single country that is not threatent by USA if they are not going to do what Washington tells them to do?

    Israel?

    Israel owns the US foreign policy through AIPAC. The US is not steering up shit and regime change in ME because they come to some genius plan of countries that have zero threatening power to the US, but because Israel tells US to weaken all ME countries so it can become regional power.
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:50 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:
    Hanoi's policy is that Vietnam are eager to make friends with all countries. As long as they do not threaten our sovereignty and independence.

    Tell me a single country that is not threatent by USA if they are not going to do what Washington tells them to do?

    Washington can threaten us as much as they desire. But whether we will do what they want or not, is a complete different story.

    partizan wrote:Question for our Vietnamese frend. Some times ago I read something aobut 4 memeber spetsnaz team who eneterd Vietnam in late sixties just to test new dragunov snaiper for russian army in live battle condition. Maybe this is ot, or not,  but if you have any knowledge about that, from vietnamese sources would be nice to share with us.

    I will search about that information. Tks.
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Mike E on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    IMHO opinion the M113 was far superior... It didn't have any major flaws, unlike the BTR-60 and even -70 (gas tanks.....). Plus I'd take the better off-road mobility, than on-road where it still performs excellently... The flexible design of the M113 would allow it to fit just about any armament/turret, so that complaint is unjustified.

    Comparing the M113 to the old BTR-60, both had similar armour protection... ie not much better than small arms fire and splinters. The BTR-60 was every bit as mobile as the M113 and had the advantage that if it ran over a small mine it would likely lose a wheel but not lose its mobility like the M113 would if it lost a track.

    Standard armament of each vehicle was single 50 cal in unprotected mount for the M113 and 14.5mm HMG plus 30 cal coaxial in an armoured turret... pretty clear which is superior.

    BTR being wheeled was cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate and is fully amphibous.

    The M113s aluminium armour tends to burn when the vehicle catches fire.

    You are right about the MTLB being a better compassion, but that itself has many design differences.

    MTLB is a prime mover that would be more likely to be used towing large guns and their crews around the battlefield. It would be used as a troop transport in colder regions where deep snow was an issue because it tended to handle deep snow better than the heavier BMP, but was not normally used as a troop carrier.


    Similar, sure, but I'd rather be inside the Ai M113 than the BTR-60. Especially when the only way out of the vehicle is a gas tank waiting to blow! The M113 is far more mobile over rough terrain, which is where it really counts. Besides, it still has/had great on-road mobility as well. - Faster then the M2, at least the A3 is.

    The M113 is a APC! For crying out loud, it doesn't need a large armament. - Ever heard of the AIFV?

    The M113 is "fully" amphibious, and its tracks make it better in the areas surrounding large bodies of water (mud patties anyone?).

    Lies.... That has been a rumor for years, in reality Ai doesn't burn unless powered. - At worst it will spall, but not powder.

    A better comparo as in it is tracked and with a similar role.
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    Re: Little stories of US, Soviet (and other foreign) weapons in Vietnam

    Post  Mike E on Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:10 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:
    Mike E wrote:Girls N' Guns! lol1

    Thanks for more content!

    Now that the weapons restriction by the West are being lifted, what do you think will happen to NAM's forces? - Buy US weapons etc.

    - I "love me some" Pho soup... Not kidding, here in the Silicon Valley area, there are *hundreds* of Vietnamese restaurants!

    Honestly I do not know. Most of the Vietnamese weapons systems are Russian-origin, and as you can see, the Russian and U.S. weapon system are not very compatible.

    There are several articles which suggested that Vietnam may buy the P-3C Orion and the Oliver Hazard Perry warship from the U.S.

    For me, I think Vietnam should have some sort of contracts with the U.S. about the American weapons inside the PAVN, for example the M113, M107, UH Huey, Mxx, or else.

    I strongly suggest that you should go to Vietnam and eat the food there. The flavour and spices is stronger and more difference than the Vietnamese food in the West. Probably because, in the West people do not use a lot of flavour or season powder.

    Figured, either way it is a good thing to buy weapons from multiple countries and not just one. Look at what India is doing, and they are in great shape!

    You'd be surprised... There is a large population of Vietnamese here, many of which were actually born their. - They took their recipe over (/), Pho is so good that I can't imagine it being better!

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