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    Catalan independence movement

    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie on Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:00 am

    BM-21 wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    Catalonia defeated the Spanish violence.  cheers  cheers  cheers

    You won the right to become an independent country. Congratulations Catalonia!

    How? Very few people voted and there's no guarantee it was a fair referendum.
    Also, it's illegal for Catalonia to become independent if the rest of Spain disagrees.

    The Catalans have been fighting for independence for centuries. As far as I am aware, their language is not at all closely related to Spanish and they have their own separate customs and traditions. If Kosovo could become an independent state which is crazy but it did then I don't see why Catalonia couldn't. About the turnout, I think they said that 42% came to vote and 90% voted for independence. Let's look at the case of Montenegrin independence vote. Allegedly, little over 80% of the population voted scoring about 55.5% for yes. That means that less than half of the population voted to secede from Serbia but they still got independence. Lucky them. Granted it had a much bigger turnout and was "perhaps  "more"(not really) representative of the true disposition of the population. Anyway, an independent Catalonia could lead to more calls for independence in Europe and a rise in nationalism across the region. Kind of a positive development in my opinion. Would work against efforts at forging a one world government.

    Note that the 42% of the census is the share of vote counted. The participation of 750000 additional voters was registered at the time of leaving its vote, but their votes were kidnapped by the Spanish police and counted not. The total turnout was over 3 millions that is over a 55%.


    Last edited by eehnie on Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:50 am

    Gotta love the EU definition of democracy.... you get a vote and your vote counts as long as you vote the way we want... if you vote the wrong way we keep having referendums until you get it right or we just say you can never have a vote.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:00 am

    Russia supports territorial integrity of Spain
    KiloGolf
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    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:Gotta love the EU definition of democracy.... you get a vote and your vote counts as long as you vote the way we want... if you vote the wrong way we keep having referendums until you get it right or we just say you can never have  a vote.

    The samovar is ready comrade, take a seat.

    Catalan independence movement - Page 2 T7rAtSj

    PS. Spare us with the speech on such issues.
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie on Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Gotta love the EU definition of democracy.... you get a vote and your vote counts as long as you vote the way we want... if you vote the wrong way we keep having referendums until you get it right or we just say you can never have  a vote.

    A good number of European gouvernments rejected the Spanish violence. Belgium, Slovenia, and a good number of countries more... This are the Spanish standards of democracy. The Francoism never was purged in Spain and remains in the Spanish right with little change, even there is an important level of nepotism at political level.
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie on Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:50 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia supports territorial integrity of Spain

    I would like if there is some link, in support of Marrano Rajoy after to learn about his true face.

    We, Catalans and Basques, suffered too much since centuries to be convinced by people of outside that we must stay in Spain suffering the same, because of some own calculus of where they can have more or less benefit at our cost. Not even the religious leader. Who sides with the Francoism of yesterday and of today becomes highly unpopular in our countries. No matter who.

    And who understands the situation is highly respected and loved. No matter who: Cossiga, Blair, Carter,... plus a good number of European and worldwide rulers that begin to understand now.

    There is not room for external work, or even manipulation, here. We go. We go. Only extreme violence, like in 1936 has been keeping us under them.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:35 am

    PS. Spare us with the speech on such issues.

    You would not get such responses if you didn't preach to the world on democracy and peace... get your own house in order you bunch of hypocrites and at least practise what you preach before daring to tell us how to behave.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:44 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Gotta love the EU definition of democracy.... you get a vote and your vote counts as long as you vote the way we want... if you vote the wrong way we keep having referendums until you get it right or we just say you can never have  a vote.

    The samovar is ready comrade, take a seat.

    Catalan independence movement - Page 2 T7rAtSj

    PS. Spare us with the speech on such issues.

    That was rather a different situation.

    Which is if anything an argument for Spain intervening immediately to enforce their constitution, not against... as one might say what happened in Chechnya is what happens if the federal centre doesn't do anything at all for 3 years while its regions declare independence, get recognized by Somalia and the Taliban, and just kinda do their own thing and run their own economy (you know - illegal arms trading, kidnapping & ransoming, robbery) without recognizing any orders from the capital.

    Generally speaking though I don't really have much of an opinion on the Spain/Catalonia thing. I can sympathise with the opinions of both sides.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:48 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:..............
    The samovar is ready comrade, take a seat.

    Catalan independence movement - Page 2 T7rAtSj

    PS. Spare us with the speech on such issues.

    That building looks like Godzilla walked trough it thumbsup
    KiloGolf
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    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:55 pm

    flamming_python wrote:That was rather a different situation.

    Which is if anything an argument for Spain intervening immediately to enforce their constitution, not against... as one might say what happened in Chechnya is what happens if the federal centre doesn't do anything at all for 3 years while its regions declare independence, get recognized by Somalia and the Taliban, and just kinda do their own thing and run their own economy (you know - illegal arms trading, kidnapping & ransoming, robbery) without recognizing any orders from the capital.

    Generally speaking though I don't really have much of an opinion on the Spain/Catalonia thing. I can sympathise with the opinions of both sides.

    I wouldn't call it different, but rather the same "disease" at a later, more progressed state.
    The Spaniards sent in the Riot Police to enforce their own Law, quite early on. Good on them for not giving up their own country to some minority, crybaby lefties and pseudonationalists.

    Having to pull a Chechnya, shouldn't be an option for Spain. But then again, the territorial integrity of a country can be defended, even going to such extremes.

    PapaDragon wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:..............
    The samovar is ready comrade, take a seat.

    Catalan independence movement - Page 2 T7rAtSj

    PS. Spare us with the speech on such issues.

    That building looks like Godzilla walked trough it   thumbsup

    That was Russian Freedom delivered through the window, or dare I say through the entire building's wall/facade.   lol1
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:47 am

    Yes, of course... some criminals terrorise their neighbours with instances of peace and democracy like Beslan and the Moscow theatre siege, it is totally comparable to a group in Spain wanting a referendum and getting the shit kicked out of them by their own police force.

    It is exactly the same... completely.

    I believe the view of the west and the EU was that those chechen terrorists and child killers was that they had the right to be free of moscow oppression.... are they going to be consistent in Spain?

    I doubt it.

    As I said... Hypocrites.
    KiloGolf
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    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:42 am



    Still very relevant:

    The Islamic Republic of Catalonia

    by Soeren Kern
    October 12, 2012 at 5:00 am

    A successful push for independence in the Spanish autonomous region of Catalonia would lead to the establishment of a country with the third-largest percentage of Muslims in Western Europe, just behind France and Belgium, and far ahead of Britain and Germany.

    An independent Catalonia, with its capital in Barcelona, would also be home to the largest concentration of radical Islamists in Europe; it would emerge as ground-zero for Salafi-Jihadism on the continent and become one of the top incubators for Islamist terrorism in the West.

    ....

    Catalonia has 7.5 million inhabitants, including an estimated 450,000 Muslims, who account for 6% of the total Catalan population. In some Catalan towns and cities, the Muslim population now reaches up to 40% of the population.

    As a result of mass immigration from Muslim countries, which began in the 1980s, Catalonia has emerged as "a major Mediterranean center for radical Islamists," and the United States has even proposed setting up an intelligence hub at the U.S. Consulate in Barcelona to counter the growing threat, according to American diplomatic cables that were obtained by Wikileaks and published by the Madrid-based El País newspaper.

    A five-page cable, dated October 2, 2007, for example, describes the link between mass immigration to Catalonia and the rise of radical Islamism in the region.

    ...

    Today, however, Catalonia not only has the highest Muslim population in Spain, it is also one of the most Islamized regions of the country. (See here for a 45-minute documentary about the Islamization of Catalonia.)

    Consider the municipality of Salt, a town near Barcelona where Muslim immigrants now make up 40% of the population. Salafi Muslims have turned Salt into what has been dubbed the "New Mecca of the Most Radical Islamism." Among other projects, the Salafists are seeking to build a Saudi-financed mega-mosque in the town, where around 12,000 of Salt's 30,000 inhabitants are Muslim immigrants. The structure, with four stories comprising 1,000 square meters (11,000 square feet) accompanied by towering minarets, would be the largest Salafi mosque in Europe.

    In addition to Salt, other towns in Catalonia have become centers for Salafi Islam in Spain. The movement is based in the Catalonian city of Tarragona, but Salafi Islam also has a major presence in the municipalities of Badalona, Calafell, Cunit, El Vendrel, Gerona, Lleida, Mataró, Reus, Roda de Bara, Rubí, Santa Coloma de Gramenet, Sant Boi, Torredembarra, Valls, Vic and Vilanova, not to mention Barcelona, which hosts five Salafi mosques.

    Salafi preachers in Catalonia teach that Islamic Sharia law is above Spanish civil law. They also promote the establishment of a parallel Muslim society in Catalonia. Salafi imams have set up Sharia tribunals to judge the conduct of both practicing and non-practicing Muslims in the region, and to punish those who fail to comply.

    In Lleida, where Muslims now make up around 20% of the city's total population, local residents have accused Muslim immigrants of poisoning dozens of dogs in the city because according to Islamic teaching dogs are "unclean" animals.

    In Reus, nine Islamists kidnapped a woman, tried her for adultery based on Sharia law, and condemned her to death. The woman, by fleeing to a local police station, just barely managed to escape being executed.

    In Tarragona, an imam forced a 31-year-old Moroccan woman to wear a hijab Islamic head covering. The imam also threatened to burn down the woman's house: according to him, as she works outside of the home, drives an automobile and has non-Muslim friends, she is an "infidel." The local prosecutor had asked the judge to jail the imam and three others for five years for harassment; but the imam was cleared of all charges after the Socialist mayor of the town said she wanted to prevent "a social conflict."

    In Terrassa, an industrial city north of Barcelona, an imam from Morocco who preaches at a large mosque in the city center promoted violence against women by instructing his listeners to "hit women with the use of a stick, the fist or the hand so that no bones are broken and no blood is drawn." When questioned by police, he refused to provide evidence; he said he does not recognize the legitimacy of the Spanish state.

    In Gerona, an eight-year-old Moroccan girl was suspended from a public school for refusing to remove her hijab in class. The Catalan government intervened by ordering the school to allow the girl to wear the hijab on grounds that it would be discrimination not to do so.

    In Barcelona, a Moroccan imam said it is absolutely necessary to accept Islamic values as European values and that from now on, when describing Western Civilization, Europeans should replace the term "Judeo-Christian" with term "Islamo-Christian."

    Elsewhere in Catalonia, Muslim immigrants are imposing Sharia law in public schools, where non-Muslim school children are regularly harassed for bringing ham sandwiches (see video here) to school for lunch.

    ...

    Although some Catalans are having second thoughts about the wisdom of promoting Muslim mass immigration as a strategy to achieve Catalan independence, it is estimated that up to 10,000 Catalans with links to the separatist movement have actually converted to Islam in recent years. It is believed, for example, that two out of every ten Catalan radicals who belong to the far-left political party, the Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC), are converts to Islam.


    ...

    Catalan multiculturalists are also actively proselytizing Muslim immigrants, seeking to convert them to the religion of Catalan nationalism. In July, for instance, Catalan pro-independence activists, seeking to capture future Muslim voters, posted signs in front of mosques around Catalonia which stated that "Catalan sovereignty will help to integrate Muslim immigrants."

    ...

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3393/catalonia-islamic-republic

    GarryB wrote:Yes, of course... some criminals terrorise their neighbours with instances of peace and democracy like Beslan and the Moscow theatre siege, it is totally comparable to a group in Spain wanting a referendum and getting the shit kicked out of them by their own police force.

    It is exactly the same... completely.

    You are right it's not the same.
    Russia dealt with it worse, by not using riot police in Chechnya early on and guarding their military infrastructure better. Instead they allowed war to happen. That's why I said, "spare us with the speech" on hypocrisy.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:12 am

    You are very funny... it seems you are democratic as long as white christians are in charge, but the very potential of a muslim state in europe and you call in the nazi stormtroopers to beat women and old people and their dogs.

    The fear you have is that an independent Catalonia might challenge Kosovo or Abania for shithole number one in the EU...

    You brought fear and destruction to the world Europe... are you not enjoying the blow back?

    But it is OK because at the rate the US and EU members can produce  corvettes you should all be quite safe.... Razz
    KiloGolf
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    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:50 am

    GarryB wrote:You are very funny... it seems you are democratic as long as white christians are in charge, but the very potential of a muslim state in europe and you call in the nazi stormtroopers to beat women and old people and their dogs.

    You're missing the point. And none of that ever happened in this case.
    RTN
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    Post  RTN on Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:But it is OK because at the rate the US and EU members can produce  corvettes you should all be quite safe.... Razz

    But we feel quite safe with Kiwis too Wink In fact New Zealanders are liked across the world. Maybe because New Zealand is a wealthy country. Hardly any poverty. Wealthy due to hard work, diligence, innovation & not like Mid Eastern Arab states who are wealthy but totally corrupt.


    People always like wealthy people to come to their countries. Consequently, most countries allow New Zealanders to enter their country without a Visa.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:47 am

    Actually if it quite hard for a Kiwi to get anything except a travel visa to the UK unless you have a parent or grandparent that was british and many young kiwis move to Australia.

    Food and other things like books are expensive here in NZ and we do have poverty... but it is first world poverty... not real poverty like starving to death because you can't get a job.

    You're missing the point. And none of that ever happened in this case.

    When you apply the Emu defence all you can see is sand...

    Video on RT of the referendum and the police attacking people trying to vote was clear enough... there is an older guy that is kicked to the ground and his dog is also given a kick by a nice friendly policeman... I am sure such a response will only make them want to remain part of Spain.

    What really makes me laugh is WTF does it matter if you are all in the EU anyway... having a region of spain under a different government would make fuck all difference in the end... it is as amusing as the people of Kosovo getting independence without a referendum... you can't give them that because the Serbs might demand their own referendum to separate from Kosovo and that is not convenient to the powers that be.
    RTN
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    Post  RTN on Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:04 am

    GarryB wrote:Actually if it quite hard for a Kiwi to get anything except a travel visa to the UK unless you have a parent or grandparent that was british and many young kiwis move to Australia.

    NZ citizens can enter US, Canada,EU without a visa & stay for 90 days. But the point that I was trying ti make is that citizens from NZ are liked across the world because they follow rules and are not illegal immigrants. Even when I was in Russia, I realised that NZ are liked there too.


    GarryB wrote:Food and other things like books are expensive here in NZ and we do have poverty... but it is first world poverty... not real poverty like starving to death because you can't get a job.

    That type of poverty exists in the US as well. But when I was last in NZ (around 2014) I hardly found anyone living in poverty, at least around Auckland and Christchurch. Re books, they are expensive in North America too. Food though is quite cheap.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:35 am

    NZ citizens can enter US, Canada,EU without a visa & stay for 90 days.

    That has changed then, I remember in the 1990s when my mother was passing through the US on her way to the UK that she was escorted from where she got off her plane to where her connecting flight was leaving from because she didn't have a visa.

    She said it was great because she didn't have to queue up with everyone else.
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:44 am

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41574172

    Catalonia independence declaration signed and suspended

    Catalan President Carles Puigdemont and other regional leaders have signed a declaration of independence from Spain, following the disputed referendum.
    However, they say the move will not be implemented for several weeks to allow talks with the government in Madrid.


    [Note: The Declaration has been signed by the 72 members of the Parliament that support the independence. 72 of 135, is a majority of the members of the Parliament of Catalonia]

    The document calls for Catalonia to be recognised as an "independent and sovereign state".
    The move was immediately dismissed by the Spanish central government in Madrid.
    A 1 October referendum in the north-eastern province - which Catalan leaders say resulted in a Yes vote for independence - was declared invalid by Spain's Constitutional Court.
    Earlier on Tuesday, Mr Puigdemont told the Catalan parliament in Barcelona that the region had won the right to be independent as a result of the vote.

    Full support to Catalonia.

    Time to see if the international mediators are able to obtain the same position in favour of the dialogue from the Spanish gouvernment.
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:37 pm

    What is your perspective on the ongoing protests and the whole issue of Catalonia's independence?

    There seem to be no clear solution - population is split roughly 50/50 between pro-Spanish and pro-independence.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:31 am

    Seems democracy only matters when it suits...

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