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    Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

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    eridan
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    Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  eridan on Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:30 pm

    Does anyone have a source on recent (2011 or newer) order of battle of russian army's ground force, especially down to brigade/regiment levels?

    While one can sort of find tidbits on military districts and their army groups, there is no info to be found on lower units. How many divisions in which army group? How many brigades or regiments in a particular division? How many of which kind? Tank brigades? Motorized infantry brigade?

    It seems a bit strange that there's pretty detailed info coming on new combat aircraft and their numbers while there's almost no info on number of brigades/regiments.

    Can anyone offer a good source and help with that?

    Vann7
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Vann7 on Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:08 pm



    Not sure if this help.. but look here..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Armed_Forces

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces


    Asf
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:06 am

    How many divisions in which army group? How many brigades or regiments in a particular division? How many of which kind? Tank brigades? Motorized infantry brigade?

    The Russian army is mostly brigade-styled. It means 5 military strategic-operative commands (military districts) with armies in it. Armies are a corps equivalents and consist of brigades (no standardized number of brigades per army). Brigades are standart tactical unit with, it's about 40 motor rifle brigades and 3 tank brigades in Ground Forces. Motor rifle brigade has three motor rifle batallion and one tank batallion plus 2 arty batalions, 1 MRLS battary, engineer batallion, recon batallion, AT batallion, two AA batalions and smaller support units.
    There are also two divisions which are similar to soviet divisions but with only two maneuver regiments. Divisions are tactical units like brigades are (bigger ones). VDV also has four two-regiment divisions and organisation and four brigades.
    The Fleet has brigades and separate batalions of naval infantry (one brigade per fleet) plus their own motor rifle brigades ("coastal-defence", similar to army ones)

    eridan
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  eridan on Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:52 pm

    i read the current reorganization plans to do away with tank brigades and any division styled units. instead, only combined arms brigades (infantry batallions, tanks batallions, arty batallions) would remain.

    But there's no sources which mention how far along that reorganisation is, no sources on CURRENT status.

    Asf
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:36 pm

    But there's no sources which mention how far along that reorganisation is, no sources on CURRENT status.

    All brigades was created years ago by now and tested during massive district-level military exercises. It is unclear though would army stay in a brigade/army style or will switched back to divisions. Two newly created divisions shows this way is still an option.
    New wave of structure reorganisation will be held in 2015-2020 years due to new vehicle types being produced (Armata, ect).

    Currently it's about 85-100 brigades in the ground forces (40 motor rifle, 3 tank, all other are artillery, tactical rocket, AA forces, engineer, ect). Coastal forces of the Fleet (marines and rifles) and VDV aren't included. Internal troops obviously too.


    only combined arms brigades

    Not only. There are tank, artillery, engineer, AA brigades. Actually, tank and motor rifle regiments/divisions were already combined arms formations since WWII. It was a matter of command structure reform.
    Modern brigades are like a soviet regiments with full augmenting assests from divisions. E.g. modern russian brigades are old regimental combat groups of main axis of afford. They shouldn't be confused with NATO brigades which are soviet regiment equivalents

    eridan
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  eridan on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:49 pm

    by "only" i meant that i read no tank brigades will be kept. So if there are 3 tank brigades right now, is it a matter of reorganization not being complete or is ANOTHER round of reorganization that will again add tank brigades?

    anyhow, 40 rifle brigades and 3 tank brigades would, *if one uses soviet numbers and ratios* give little under a total of 1900 tanks in active duty maneuver units. Additional units would probably house training tanks and tactics development.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:09 pm

    no tank brigades will be kept. So if there are 3 tank brigades right now, is it a matter of reorganization not being complete or is ANOTHER round of reorganization that will again add tank brigades?

    Why do you think so? tank brigades are like motor rifle brigades but with 3 tank batallions and 1 rifle batallion. It's an operative hitting tool of an army. Most armies don't have them due restrictive terrain they are supposed to operate on or just the low brigade count (say, there are 4 armies in the Eastern district but fairy low combat-ready brigades so only one combat-ready tank brigade, and the Western district has two, one being redeployed as a tank division).

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:10 pm

    anyhow, 40 rifle brigades and 3 tank brigades would, *if one uses soviet numbers and ratios* give little under a total of 1900 tanks

    Don't forget 1 tank division near Moskow with two tank regiments (another tank brigade previously)


     ANOTHER round of reorganization that will again add tank brigades?

    Actually, there were no plans of removing tank units. Another round of reorganisation is rumored to reorganise motor rifle brigades into light, medium (wheeled) and heavy brigades plus tank brigades. Heavy brigades will be of two types (3/1 and 2/2 batallions) and light brigades seems to be a term for mountain, arctic and spetsnas brigades (with little to no heavily armed and armoured vehicles). It seems to be theoretic organisation what would be tested IRC then new vehicles would come.


    Last edited by Asf on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

    eridan
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  eridan on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:18 pm

    Do you happen to know answer to my question? If there are 3 tank brigades right now, is it a matter of reorganization that wanted to do away with tank brigades not being complete or is ANOTHER round of reorganization that is again adding tank brigades?

    divisions are kept being mentioned. am i to understand there is one tank division in western district and then a separate tank division around moscow? And then in addition to that 1 more tank brigade?

    Or is it one two tank divisions plus 3 more tank brigades?

    Using soviet battalion strengths, overall active duty tank combat units would then have some 2050 tanks.

    anyhow, since i dont want to bother people with questions every few days, could i get a source that contains the info about all this reorganization, brigades again becoming divisions etc?

    Asf
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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:22 pm

    If there are 3 tank brigades right now, is it a matter of reorganization that wanted to do away with tank brigades

    There were NO plans to remove tactical-level tank units (divisions/brigades), and tank armies were abolished long ago.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:24 pm

    am i to understand there is one tank division in western district and then a separate tank division around moscow?

    No, it's the same division, Kantemirovskaya one. The only tank division still present. So, there are 1 tank division and three tank brigades. One tank division and a tank brigade in the Western district, one in the Central district and one in Eastern districs. The Southern districs has no tank brigade as it situated on Kavkaz mountains - not the best place for massive tank formations

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:28 pm

    Using soviet battalion strengths, overall active duty tank combat units would then have some 2050 tanks.

    Yep, around 2000 tanks in the combat units

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:40 pm

    could i get a source that contains the info about all this reorganization, brigades again becoming divisions etc?

    I'm a bit lazy to search for links on it in English right now  Smile
    During Serdukov's time all the Ground Forces was rerolled from "cadre" divisions into combat-ready brigades (RVSN and VDV kept because they aren't parts of the Ground Forces and deemed to be in a good shape without reorganisation). This decision created a wave of critisims about command structure complexity of newly created brigades (too many batallions), so then Shoigu came two "guard" divisions where created again to experiment with VDV-like division structure.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  eridan on Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:01 pm

    i am finding info about brigades having a tank batallion, 3 mr batallions, arty batallion, antitenk unit (company sized?), recce company and air defense batallion. that is A LOT of stuff for just 4500 people in a brigade. Unless there's more soldiers per brigade. Western brigades have similar number of troops but the ratio of combat units to support units is far different since they have just 2-3 batallions and a company or two.

    Perhaps they found out the organic logistics for such a brigade just isn't there. And once one pushed the troop levels to 6-7 thousand, counting all needed support, one might as well call it a division.

    Feel free to give sources in russian too, i am not picky, though google translate is sure to ruin the details.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  eridan on Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:23 pm

    Here's a source in english which more or less corroborates what Ash was saying. there's a nice table on page 26. author claims data is from 2013, patched up from various media, so it is by no means official nor final.

    https://www.academia.edu/5407818/2013_The_Military_Capability_of_Russias_Armed_Forces_in_2013_in_Hedenskog_and_Vendil_Pallin_eds_Russian_Military_Capability_in_A_Ten-Year_Perspective

    38 mr brigades
    2 mr divisions (claimed to be small, 6000 troop units, comprised of 2 mr and one 1 tank regiment and no out-of-regiment additional arty or AD support units)
    3 tank brigades
    1 tank division (no data for this, but one might assume it's 2 tank and 1 mr regiment here?)
    9 artillery brigades (does anyone know composition of these?)
    4 rocket artillery brigades (again, composition?)

    7 surface to surface missile brigades (how come just 7? i thought there were more tochkas and planes for iskanders are for more than 7, no?)
    10 AD brigades
    3 airborne brigades (i thought airborne were not under army command? but rather directly under central command? that changed?)
    7 special forces brigades (what is composition of these? what sort of equipment is used?)

    not related to the document linked above, what is with army aviation? right now it's under air force, no? But aren't there plans to move the helicopters back to the army and have aviation brigades directly subordinated to army groups?

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:18 am

    2 mr divisions

    One mr division and one "machinegun-artillery" division (far east static strongpoint formation)

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:58 am

    antitenk unit (company sized?)

    Yep, a battary, not a batallion as I mistakenly mentioned previously


    recce company 

    recon batallion since 2009


    air defense batallion

    two batallions actually, 
    - first one ("close range AA"): tunguska battery, strela-10 battery, manpads battery 
    - second one ("long range AA"): 3 batteries of Tor-M1.

    This is a "on-paper" structure, some brigades can have, say, shilka instead of tunguska 


     that is A LOT of stuff for just 4500 people

    This is a soviet/russian way - less men, less support personel, more guns and vehicles. How many men in a NATO mechanized batallion? Around 700? The russian one only has around 400-500.
    And actually the new brigades are around 5000 men strong. But still you just caught why "new image" brigades were criticized and MoD still experiment with divisions.  Though army command seems to learned how to manage new brigades (complex military testings with thousands men redeploying proves it).


    Perhaps they found out the organic logistics for such a brigade just isn't there

    What is the organic logistics of a brigade for you? The russian one has an organic logistic battalion and a maintainance battalion plus a support company in every battalion (two or three platoons with NCO in command)


    9 artillery brigades (does anyone know composition of these?)

    two types: one SP howitzers batallion + one MLRS (Uragan) batallion + AT batallion or two SP howitzers batallions + AT batallion. Plus every brigade do have an artillery recon battery, HQs, logistics, ect.


    4 rocket artillery brigades (again, composition?)

    Dunno for sure, must be 3-4 battaries of Smerch MRLS plus recon, HQ, logistics.


    7 surface to surface missile brigades (how come just 7? i thought there were more tochkas and planes for iskanders are for more than 7, no?)

    Iskanders replaces old Tochkas. And yes, 7 to 10 surface-to-surface missile brigades as it's one brigade per army as a guideline.


    3 airborne brigades (i thought airborne were not under army command? but rather directly under central command? that changed?)

    There were airborne brigades under army command, but now they were reassigned to VDV again. Plan was to use them as an air-assault (helicopter operation) units by ground force commanders (of operational level), but it was deemed ineffective, as long as the ground forces do have their recon units for tactical-level operations plus in case of a warfare VDV units can be assigned to the combined arms commands on a temporary basis.


    Last edited by Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:37 am; edited 3 times in total

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:04 am

    7 special forces brigades (what is composition of these? what sort of equipment is used?)

    Sort of obscure information, this is spetsnas after all. Must be three batallions plus heavy weapons company(or batallion? mortars and ATGMs) plus logistics and HQ. This is the guys with Tigr jeeps seen in Crimea. Spetsnas organisation differs from 'line' troops as they never operate on a batallion basis but form task-oriented detachments and groups.


    what is with army aviation? right now it's under air force, no? But aren't there plans to move the helicopters back to the army and have aviation brigades directly subordinated to army groups?

    Yes, army aviation is under air force command. Plans of assigning army aviation back to the ground forces and VDV seems to be cancelled after streamlining the command structure during the reforms and creation of combined strategic-operational commands which is able to operate ground force, airforce and naval force units on a given battlefield ('front').

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:14 am

    Feel free to give sources in russian too, i am not picky, though google translate is sure to ruin the details.

    Here's a famous russian forum of one famous russian military geek Smile

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:33 am

    1 tank division (no data for this, but one might assume it's 2 tank and 1 mr regiment here?)

    As I managed to learn, it's only two tank regiments + arty regiment + recon batallion + engeneer batallion + AA regiment(?) + logistics and HQ. It's looks like a VDV style for me (VDV division has only two manuever regiments too), so as I think. On the other hand, it's like a bit larger brigade (or two brigades) it's support elements (arty, AA) are grouped in dedicated regiments.
    Newly created MR division also have two maneuver regiments (motor rifle regiments).

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  eridan on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:47 am

    well, thanks for all the info and the link. it will take some time for me to read through that forum and get up to speed. It seems that only land forces part of the forum is frequently visited, though? Air force organisation has seen last posts back in 2012??

    Did you mean that mr divisions have only 2 mr regiments and no tank regiment? the analysis link i gave suggested they're 2+1. Though i'm sure that may've changed since then.

    As for organic logistics, it was a general statement. Back in soviet days, Division had most of the logistics and support for its maneuver elements, while regiments themselves had less so. Now with the new brigades, it's as if they kept the ratio of maneuver units to support as it was in soviet regiments, but there's no divisional level unit with extra logistics. Then again, if the new divisions are as small as it seems, that too won't change things much.

    It still appears to me that the general ratio of troops in maneuver units and troops in support units is different than in western armies, meaning there are more maneuver troops compared to support troops. I'm sure there are reasons for that but right now I can't think of any. Unless they're there for mostly defensive war and that was designed during no-money-years in 2000s. Maybe with added funding and reorganization that will gradually change now.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:57 am

     It seems that only land forces part of the forum is frequently visited, though? 

    It was inactive for some time, still there is no other information on the topic beyong written there.

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:02 am

    Did you mean that mr divisions have only 2 mr regiments and no tank regiment? the analysis link i gave suggested they're 2+1. Though i'm sure that may've changed since then.

    It is possible they activated another regiment since the time I did my research. 2+1 is a pretty standard organisation of a late soviet division (3+1 was a 'war-time' organisation but I heard rumors there were plans to make all divisions 2+1 for better management and strategic mobility)

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:11 am


    but there's no divisional level unit with extra logistics.

    I've read an article about logistics of the "new image". As I understand there is now a logistic brigade per army (or may be several in case of a large army like 58th) which took logistic role of division. So division logistics were divided between "regiment level" (brigade) and army level. Anyway logistic support is really the question of the organisation along with command structure

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    Re: Russian Ground Forces ORBAT and Organization

    Post  Asf on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:20 am

    It still appears to me that the general ratio of troops in maneuver units and troops in support units is different than in western armies, meaning there are more maneuver troops compared to support troops. I'm sure there are reasons for that but right now I can't think of any

    Less men in the rear means more men on the frontline. It's how the USSR was managed to win WWII. You can compare Red Army rifle company with wehrmacht grenadier company (not to mention tank companies!). Or bundeswehr company/batallion with the Soviet one. No spare transports for company COs with dedicated drivers, no other luxuaries, as personel is always needed elsewhere. What's why soviet tanks utilise autoloaders Smile
    It's not only about support troops however. Just look at the soviet mr platoon and us mechanised infantry rifle one - three two-men vehicle crew and three 6 men dismount sections against four three-men vehicle crew and three 8 men dismount sections

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