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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

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    Mike E
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:54 am

    TR1 wrote:Your comeback is the link source?

    LOL! You are a clown. I don't give a shit if the link was to the US state department. The photos themselves tell anyone who knows anything about armor, all they need to know.
    Sadly, the technical knowledge of most posters on this thread/forum is lacking to put mildly.

    It is a BTR-82A, and there is no alternative explanation aside from tinfoil theories and hopeful thinking (teh Uks modified a BTR-80 to look exactly like the 82 for some reason then lost it to the rebs11!!!)

    Who needs a "comeback" when an idiot is the one on the "other side"...

    Yeah, a couple crummy pics are some great evidence! Keep dreaming!

    Stop trying to demonize Russia (and troll) and use your brain, not only in this case, but all others... Besides, didn't you "quit" this forum?

    - That picture is literally one of the worst I've seen in a while. At least go find a front facing one.

    - I've only found one picture of a BTR-82 with a "side mirror", while many on BTR-80's....

    NationalRus
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  NationalRus on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:01 am

    TR1 wrote:Your comeback is the link source?

    LOL! You are a clown. I don't give a shit if the link was to the US state department. The photos themselves tell anyone who knows anything about armor, all they need to know.
    Sadly, the technical knowledge of most posters on this thread/forum is lacking to put mildly.

    It is a BTR-82A, and there is no alternative explanation aside from tinfoil theories and hopeful thinking (teh Uks modified a BTR-80 to look exactly like the 82 for some reason then lost it to the rebs11!!!).

    I am glad you are not denying it (though honestly, this isn't an achievement) but to post that it is like any other BTR-80 turret...well. What can I say. Baloney.

    finnaly a realist, thank you

    Stop trying to demonize Russia (and troll)

    stop being a delusional idiot, all the prove was given, and who demonizes russia? im glad its ther, i hope more will come

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:05 am

    Troll =/= realist...

    Never mind on the mirror thing. It appears to be a simple add-on or mod to all BTR vehicles.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  kvs on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:59 am

    Please, people, relax. A few recent generation BTRs are going to do f*ck all to turn the course of the war. Just look at how many Kiev regime BTRs are being destroyed on a routine basis.

    Also, I have seen only this one "BTR-82" being shown in videos and photographs. The rebels would need hundreds of them. The same goes for that "T-72B3". A few copies are not going to make any difference.

    One thing is clear and that is that in spite of a clear advantage in men and equipment the Kiev regime forces have squandered the initial momentum they had and are being encircled and destroyed on a continuous basis. This can be attributed to soldiers/hirelings who cannot operate equipment properly and have poor combat skills. This miserable failure explains the endless Kiev propaganda about the regular Russian army invading. Of course, this propaganda makes the North Korean inanity seem like sober objectivity. How can 5,000 Russian troops (according to Kiev) be an invasion force? Is Russia unable to send 50,000? Kiev claims it destroys whole columns of the invading Russian army. If the Russian army is so weak and useless, then how would 5,000 of them explain the failure of Kiev forces on the Donbas for the last two months?

    The problem is that the western media parrots Kiev regime press releases and people get the notion in their heads that there must be some truth to these idiotic stories.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:53 am

    Washington's Bait-And-Switch: NATO Armed Kiev Under Cover Of Ceasefire
    Just over ten days ago, as the pro-independence forces in east Ukraine were on the march with significant gains on the battlefield, a ceasefire was signed in Minsk, Belarus. According to the terms of the ceasefire, the pro-independence fighters were to lay down their arms, cease their offensive to regain lost territory in the Donetsk and Lugansk region, and disband.

    In exchange for this, the US-backed government in Kiev was to agree to an amnesty for pro-independence fighters, commit to economic development in the east, and agree to enshrine decentralization in law to provide autonomy to the east.

    Most importantly, the ceasefire was to stop the Kiev government's shelling of major population centers in the east and stop the slaughter of military forces on both sides.

    It turns out to be a grotesque sleight of hand, with Kiev receiving guarantees at the September 5, NATO summit in Wales that NATO members would provide the military equipment to finish the pro-independence forces in the east after the ceasefire gave time to re-group a badly beaten, largely conscript Ukrainian army.

    This grand deception came to light yesterday, as Valery Heletey, defense minister of the US-backed regime in Kiev, bragged that, as Reuters put it:

    NATO countries were delivering weapons to his country to equip it to fight pro-Russian separatists and "stop" Russian President Vladimir Putin.
    We are already seeing the result of this bait and switch, as yesterday saw a dramatic resumption of the US-backed government's shelling civilian Donetsk, which is under control of the pro-independence movement.

    The ceasefire provided pro-US Kiev forces time to regroup and absorb NATO weapons under the guise of stopping the violence, with the intent of slaughtering rather than negotiating with the pro-independence forces. This is no great surprise, as the February coup itself proceeded with US cooperation just as a compromise power-sharing agreement between the elected president, Yanukovich, and the Maidan rebels was signed.

    It remains a great mystery why the pro-independence forces would strike a deal with a Kiev regime which came to power as a result of a US and EU sponsored coup in February, and whose veracity and track record of fair play is rather wanting.

    A greater mystery perhaps, is why a Russia that was accused of "invading" Ukraine as the NATO summit kicked off, would agree to the decapitation of a Moscow-friendly independence movement next-door as it consolidated its gains.

    Whatever the case, the bloodshed in eastern Ukraine is about to resume. The pro-US regime in Kiev, by deception, is about to claim bloody victory from the jaws of defeat.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:59 am

    sepheronx wrote:Washington's Bait-And-Switch: NATO Armed Kiev Under Cover Of Ceasefire
    Just over ten days ago, as the pro-independence forces in east Ukraine were on the march with significant gains on the battlefield, a ceasefire was signed in Minsk, Belarus. According to the terms of the ceasefire, the pro-independence fighters were to lay down their arms, cease their offensive to regain lost territory in the Donetsk and Lugansk region, and disband.

    In exchange for this, the US-backed government in Kiev was to agree to an amnesty for pro-independence fighters, commit to economic development in the east, and agree to enshrine decentralization in law to provide autonomy to the east.

    Most importantly, the ceasefire was to stop the Kiev government's shelling of major population centers in the east and stop the slaughter of military forces on both sides.

    It turns out to be a grotesque sleight of hand, with Kiev receiving guarantees at the September 5, NATO summit in Wales that NATO members would provide the military equipment to finish the pro-independence forces in the east after the ceasefire gave time to re-group a badly beaten, largely conscript Ukrainian army.

    This grand deception came to light yesterday, as Valery Heletey, defense minister of the US-backed regime in Kiev, bragged that, as Reuters put it:

    NATO countries were delivering weapons to his country to equip it to fight pro-Russian separatists and "stop" Russian President Vladimir Putin.
    We are already seeing the result of this bait and switch, as yesterday saw a dramatic resumption of the US-backed government's shelling civilian Donetsk, which is under control of the pro-independence movement.

    The ceasefire provided pro-US Kiev forces time to regroup and absorb NATO weapons under the guise of stopping the violence, with the intent of slaughtering rather than negotiating with the pro-independence forces. This is no great surprise, as the February coup itself proceeded with US cooperation just as a compromise power-sharing agreement between the elected president, Yanukovich, and the Maidan rebels was signed.

    It remains a great mystery why the pro-independence forces would strike a deal with a Kiev regime which came to power as a result of a US and EU sponsored coup in February, and whose veracity and track record of fair play is rather wanting.

    A greater mystery perhaps, is why a Russia that was accused of "invading" Ukraine as the NATO summit kicked off, would agree to the decapitation of a Moscow-friendly independence movement next-door as it consolidated its gains.

    Whatever the case, the bloodshed in eastern Ukraine is about to resume. The pro-US regime in Kiev, by deception, is about to claim bloody victory from the jaws of defeat.

    It's amazing how stupefying naive Russian political leadership could be, Kiev has supported 3 ceasefires and broke all of them within days, and used those opportunities to re-group...meanwhile the neo-liberal oligarchs that dominate Russia are acting against the Russian diaspora's wishes, acting like a true 5th-column, there's no other way to explain the stupefying gesture of continuity of the failed strategy of "rinse-and-repeat" failed ceasefire accords, a strategy of self-castration.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:31 am

    kvs wrote:Please, people, relax.   A few recent generation BTRs are going to do f*ck all to turn the course of the war.   Just look at how many Kiev regime BTRs are being destroyed on a routine basis.  

    Also, I have seen only this one "BTR-82" being shown in videos and photographs.   The rebels would need hundreds of them.  The same goes for that "T-72B3".   A few copies are not going to make any difference.

    One thing is clear and that is that in spite of a clear advantage in men and equipment the Kiev regime forces have squandered the initial momentum they had and are being encircled and destroyed on a continuous basis.   This can be attributed to soldiers/hirelings who cannot operate equipment properly and have poor combat skills.  This miserable failure explains the endless Kiev propaganda about the regular Russian army invading.   Of course, this propaganda makes the North Korean inanity seem like sober objectivity.   How can 5,000 Russian troops (according to Kiev) be an invasion force?   Is Russia unable to send 50,000?  Kiev claims it destroys whole columns of the invading Russian army.   If the Russian army is so weak and useless, then how would 5,000 of them explain the failure of Kiev forces on the Donbas for the last two months?  

    The problem is that the western media parrots Kiev regime press releases and people get the notion in their heads that there must be some truth to these idiotic stories.

    Exactly what I want to say.

    Just assumed that Moskva provided some support for Novorossiya insurgents, but even according to the West' media, the support is minor.

    Even the West only estimated that 5,000 Russian troops are inside the Donbass region. Meanwhile Kyiv goverment has 50,000 troops. That's mean 50,000 Kyiv troops were defeated by 20,000 - 25,000 Novorossiya insurgents. 50,000 REGULAR TROOPS with tanks, heavy weapons, Su-xx, Mi-xx were defeated by 20,000 insurgents with, at most, minor support from Moskva.

    In a previous post I have already shown you, Kyiv goverment is more and more relying on the mecenaries battalions hired by the pro-West oligarchs, which are notorious for their cruelty, war crimes, and indiscipline. And the Kyiv regular troops, we have already seen that many of Ukrainian troops have no will to fight, are abandoned by the commanders, or refuse to shot at the Donbass civillians.

    In short, Kyiv lost the battle because they are DAMN WEAK. DAMN F*CKING WEAK. "Russian intervention" is a fallacy created by Kyiv goverment to cover their humiliating weakness.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:45 am

    In short, Kyiv lost the battle because they are DAMN WEAK. DAMN F*CKING WEAK. "Russian intervention" is a fallacy created by Kyiv goverment to cover their humiliating weakness.

    More importantly if Kiev wants to take the regions by force with new NATO weapons perhaps they should reflect a moment how that worked out for Saakashvili... especially when the Georgian forces were a much better trained and coordinated force... which was let down by its leadership.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:46 am

    Now the real question is:
    1.) Can you not be bothered to take 5 seconds to research the vehicles in question?
    2.) Can you not compare the vehicles and come to the same conclusion anyone with two functioning eyes can?
    3.) Are you just in forceful, willful denial?

    When the source is the west the bar is set VERY HIGH... WMD in Iraq anyone?

    BTR-82 front hull? = check! TKN-4GA-02 = check! 2A72? =check! production = ФГУП Tula, Russia http://www.kbptula.ru/index.php/en/productions/small-arms-guns-grenade-launchers/guns-machine-guns/2a72 other facilietys for production = none existent, in ukraine? = none existent, sails of them to ukraine = none existent, production of the same turrent or ГШ cannons in other countrys = none existent, sales of them to other countrys in europe in that form = none existent

    stop being delusional, its not even a bad thing

    Sorry that is not good enough... the claim is that the Russian military/government supplied these vechicles and there is zero evidence of that. Of the many volunteers from Russia and much of Europe it seems there are situations where an unlocked door allowed a few vehicles to be taken... they clearly took BTR-82s and T-72 upgrades because ammo and support should be better available.

    Well, sir, what's your opinion on the Vostoks then? They seem better trained and better armed, compared to locals such as the "Ghosts" for example.

    The Soviets had conscription... most healthy men who could not get out of it served and probably know basically what to do in war... certainly more than most westerners who play counterstrike.... and think they are so good with a gun.





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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:57 am

    http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/2014/09/17/
    The vice-premier of the DPR Andrey Purgin said that the cease-fire regime is not observed in Donetsk for more than two days now.

    «I think that there is no truce anymore. Heavy weapons are activly used. Cities are bombarded. Four districts of Donetsk out of eight are constantly bombarded. A shell recently hit a bus with people inside», — "RIA Novosti" cites the vice-premier of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic.

    Mr. Purgin also announced that the Ukrainian security forces started to use heavy weapons: «Two days ago something huge fell on the bus stop in Khartsyzsk, due to which a crater was formed that was six meters wide and two meters deep», — he said.

    The contact group on the situation in Donbass with the participation of the representatives from Russia, Ukraine, militia, and OSCE signed the plan of peaceful settlement on September 5th in Minsk. Its key points are: the cease fire, withdrawing the military from residential blocks, and the "all for all" POW exchange.


    Председатель Верховного Совета Донецкой Народной Республики Борис Литвинов рассказывает о своем видении будущего Новороссии. Специально для тех, кто спрашивал, а где левый дискурс в Новороссии. Как раз в виде антитезы Бородаю с его "Мы же не коммунисты". В целом толковый дядька. Разумеется, то что он описывает, это не чистый социализм, а некая форма конвергенции систем в духе "китайской модели".

    http://www.zougla.gr/blog/article/1073116 !!! (graphic warning.. Very Happy )

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:07 am



    not at all surprised at the presence of Chubais in this set. Of course, the DPR and the LPR are not represented in any way on this level, but the gauleiter Taruta is present.
    The general meaning of the document, which is not hard to notice, is to somehow preserve Donbass in Ukraine in exchange for the West refusing to pass new sanctions (and possibly cancel existing ones) and to lower the intensity of the conflict. The Ukrainian oligarchs, which is not hard to notice, find common ground with Russian oligarchs much better than the fascists find it with Novorossia. Kolomoisky here is more of an exception, the others, as practice shows, are quite capable of negotiating on this level, especially when the USA stands behind them. Of course, it is not clear if the word "negotiations" can be used for the sanctions dictate used by the USA in its relations with the Russian Federation to demand further concessions.

    my response... >> http://www.zougla.gr/assets/images/400x300/1501460.jpg

    arpakola
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:49 am

    truce ?/ what truce
    Graphic warning!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCbmE_g9Ins

    When Posting not safe for work (NSFW) items please in future just paste a link to the youtube page rather than imbed a screen, because the screen still on the embedded video might be objectionable too... no action will be taken this time... action will be taken if it happens again. GarryB


    http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1795149.html
    Вице-премьер ДНР Андрей Пургин заявил, что режим прекращения огня не соблюдается в Донецке уже два дня.

    «Я считаю, что перемирия уже нет. Используется интенсивно тяжелое вооружение. Бомбят города. Четыре района Донецка из восьми бомбят постоянно. Недавно в автобус с людьми попал снаряд», — цитирует вице-премьера самопровозглашенной Донецкой народной республики «РИА Новости».

    Господин Пургин также сообщил, что украинские силовики начали применять тяжелое вооружение: «Двое суток назад в Харцизске на автостанцию упало что-то огромное, от чего образовалась шестиметровая воронка и два с половиной в глубину», — сказал он.

    5 сентября в Минске контактная группа по ситуации в Донбассе с участием представителей России, Украины, ополченцев и ОБСЕ подписала план мирного урегулирования. Его ключевые пункты — прекращение огня, отвод войск от жилых кварталов и обмен пленными «всех на всех».  

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:57 pm

    Well, will we see an Ukrainia with nuclear weapons ?

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/749875

    Ukraine which has large uranium deposits, nuclear power plants and the ability to enrich nuclear fuel as well as enterprises which produced ballistic missiles in the Soviet times may create a nuclear bomb in ten years, Izvestia daily reported on Wednesday with reference to the opinion of Russian experts.

    “Ukrainian Defence Minister Valery Geletei’s statement that Ukraine may regain the status of a nuclear power and create weapons of mass destruction is a provocation, but this should be taken seriously,” the daily quoted deputy chairman of Russia’s lower house State Duma defence committee Frants Klintsevich as saying, noting that “This cannot be forgotten that science in Ukraine has always been developed and there won't be any problems creating a nuclear bomb.”

    Klintsevich recalled that the neighbouring country had 17 nuclear power units not designed for enrichment.

    “If they assign several nuclear power units for the purpose and will get down to resolve this task the process will take quite a long period of time. But they will cope with it for ten years,” the lawmaker believed, noting that “It is very strange if Europe will not give any response to such statements. Double standards became normal for them and this may end deplorably for all.

    http://soha.vn/quan-su/ptt-nga-noi-ve-de-doa-cua-ukraine-con-khi-mo-ve-bom-hat-nhan-20140916081911604.htm (in Vietnamese)

    English translation wrote:Lieutenant General Viktor Yesin, former commander of Russian Strategic Missile Corps, said that if Ukraina pursues the nuclear bomb project, they will become totally bankrupt.

    On 14 September, Russian Deputy Prime Minsiter Dmitry Rogozin commented that "About monkey with a grenade I've heard. But about a monkey who dreams of nuclear grenade I hear for the first time".

    According to the analysists, Ukraina have to pay the cost of hundreds of millions of USD if they want to be a nuclear power. Pyotr Topychkanov, an associate in the Carnegie Moscow Center's Nonproliferation Program told Moscow Times: “If Ukraina decide to do that, its political allies such as the U.S. and EU will abandon Kyiv. Nobody will support Ukraina, neither Europe or China. Ukraina will be treated equal to North Korea”.

    The analysists claimed that even if Ukraina is determined to develop nuclear weapons, they will need many years or even decades. The nuclear project will also make Ukraina become bankrupt.

    “With the current economy, Ukrainia cannot make dirty bombs." General Yesin claimed. "In theory, Ukraina can, but with that it will be totally bankrupt. It has several nuclear laboratory in Kharkiv. Ukraina posesses intelligence, but it lacks facilities, i.e. the factories".

    The political analysist Vladimir Fesenko, director of Penta Political Center in Kyiv claimed that, Ukrainian Defense Minister Valery Geletey is a liar. He mentioned the nuclear issues in order to draw the public attention away from the failures and losses of the Ukrainian armed forces who cannot defeat the Donbass insurgents. Fesenko told the Moscow Times: “It is an old way of PR. Geletey want to draw the public attention into another issue, and that issue is completely nonsense. Previously, many Ukrainian politicians have mentioned the nuclear issues, but they were just all talks”.

    General Yesin concluded: “Geteley is a liar. Nobody is afraid of him”.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  Firebird on Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:10 pm

    By the same reasoning as these hohol scum, the breakaway nutjob shithole of Ichkeria ie Chechnya had the "right" to commit nuclear devastation.

    There must be some circumstances where Russia will think, "fuck this, time to invade, support the pro-Russians, and let the Nazis fuck off to Euroland or suffer an occupation for 1000 yrs".

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:09 pm

    Firebird wrote:There must be some circumstances where Russia will think, "fuck this, time to invade, support the pro-Russians, and let the Nazis fuck off to Euroland or suffer an occupation for 1000 yrs".

    Could not have said it better myself... I hope that in the future the history books will include the Siege of Lvov among the truly great instances of sh!t-headed aggressors getting what was coming to them. ...turn that Nazi pig sty into a parking lot...

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:22 pm

    Firebird wrote:By the same reasoning as these hohol scum, the breakaway nutjob shithole of Ichkeria ie Chechnya had the "right" to commit nuclear devastation.

    There must be some circumstances where Russia will think, "fuck this, time to invade, support the pro-Russians, and let the Nazis fuck off to Euroland or suffer an occupation for 1000 yrs".

    with so many soft targets .. no need to

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uAGHEyQckko/VBl4b9R5Y6I/AAAAAAAAHhA/9DKwI5H4Ghw/s1600/atom1.jpg
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qTy5u7br_fw/VBl4b0alEvI/AAAAAAAAHg4/IJzssnDJET0/s1600/atom2.jpg
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-S_6gstygVhU/VBl4cDKozFI/AAAAAAAAHg8/2axyD1QLC6Y/s1600/atom3.jpg
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-s7sby2Sc9yc/VBl4chlUA9I/AAAAAAAAHhE/qEXtzaToc38/s1600/atom4.jpg
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-T4tITkxQ-yU/VBl4c70fdTI/AAAAAAAAHhY/rRSLxo-aJm4/s1600/atom5.jpg
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6xtZ3gW2xX8/VBl4c6dXBbI/AAAAAAAAHhI/TzLC9KVeomc/s1600/atom6.jpg

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:29 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Firebird wrote:There must be some circumstances where Russia will think, "fuck this, time to invade, support the pro-Russians, and let the Nazis fuck off to Euroland or suffer an occupation for 1000 yrs".

    Could not have said it better myself...  I hope that in the future the history books will include the Siege of Lvov among the truly great instances of sh!t-headed aggressors getting what was coming to them.  ...turn that Nazi pig sty into a parking lot...

    With all respect I oppose that. We must protect the right of Russian minorities, but the rights of Ukrainian people and Ukrainian nation should be respected at well. Full-scale military intervention is the last resort in the case there is no hope left.

    Not to mention that the oligarchs in the West will blabber the nonsense things about "Russian agressiveness..." Remember the time of 1979 when Vietnam sent troops Cambodia to destroy the shithead Pol Pot. Today most of the world will agree that, at that time Vietnam was right, but in 1979, many countries said that Vietnam was commiting a "crime" of agressive invasion...

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:39 pm

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.gr/2014/09/more-short-news-items-few-comments-and.html

    just as Kutuzov could not "sell out" Smolensk or Stalin could not "sell out" Kiev, Putin cannot "sell out" Novorussia. Regardless of your assessment of Putin's morality, values, ethics or goals, you cannot possibly believe that he is that stupid and that his entire entourage of advisors are that stupid. And even if Putin was that stupid, along with his advisors, he still cannot change the fundamental geostrategic reality that what is under attack is not the Ukraine, but Russia. I would add that Putin, Lavrov and many other top Russian political leaders have said many times that in Yugoslavia it was really Russia which was the target of the attack, just as it is Russia which is the real objective of the war in Syria.

    Fourth: an almost constant panic mode bordering on hysteria is just not the right mode to *understand* this war, much less so wage it and win. I will gladly admit that I myself a guilty of this "sin", but at least I am able to differentiate between my fears and my analyses. I would remind those who in Russia and in the West who are constantly predicting an apocalypse that none of their predictions (NATO attack on Russia, US nuclear attack on Russia, upheavals in Saint Petersburg, a Russian Maidan, the Ukie Nazis running over the Donbass, etc.) have materialized so far. Let me give one simple but extremely telling example: for many months I have been arguing that Russia was covertly helping Novorussia while my critics argued the contrary. My detractors were clamoring that Russia was standing by and doing nothing. Well, who was right? I am not saying that just to gloat or ridicule my opponents, but to make a very different point: I did not have access to any secret info and all I could do is use my knowledge and experience of Russian policies and methods and they told me, quite unequivocally, that Russia must be covertly helping. In contrast, my critics based their "analysis" on a mix of fear and words, statements, made by various officials. Now it is undeniable that they were wrong. Of course, they never admitted to that but they very gradually included the undeniable fact of Russian covert help into their more recent presentations. Fair enough, but I wish they would at least have learned their lesson. But no, they did not. They are still functioning in exactly the same mode, mistaking their fears and prejudices with facts and analyses. Thus my advice to all of you, my friends, is keep listening to these "prophets of imminent doom", think about their arguments, but just remember that, so far, their record is quite telling: 100% wrong.

    Quoting the "Iron Felix":

    There are very few people as evil and odious in history as Felix Derzhinsky, the human demon who created the Soviet secret police, the ChK. But, as the American say, "even a broken clock is right ever 12 hours" and, as Malcolm X liked to say "I am for truth, no matter who tells it". Well, there is a great quote by Derzhinsky which I recommend we all keep in mind and try to live by: "Чекистом может быть лишь человек с холодной головой, горячим сердцем и чистыми руками" or "a Chekist can only be a person with a cool head, a hot heart and clean hands". Of course, this was not at all how the real Chekists were, but the notion of a "cool head, hot heart and clean hands" is very good: a cool head to avoid panic, a hot heart to be truly dedicated and clean hands to never believe that it pragmatically is right to do something which is morally wrong.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:53 pm

    http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/3419053-na-severe-y-zapade-ukrayny-ot-mobylyzatsyy-uklonylys-do-desiaty-tysiach-chelovek

    With the aid of Google Translate wrote:
    В западных регионах Украины зафиксировано 9969 случаев уклонения от мобилизации. Об этом Корреспондент.net сообщили в оперативном командовании Север. В его зону ответственности относятся Киев и 13 областей (Винницкая, Волынская, Житомирская, Закарпатская, Ивано-Франковская, Киевская, Львовская, Ровенская, Тернопольская, Хмельницкая, Черкасская, Черновицкая и Черниговская).

    In the western regions of Ukraine, there are 9969 cases of evasion of mobilization. This was informed of Korrespondent.net in the Northern operational command. Its area of ​​responsibility includes 13 provinces and Kyiv (Vinnitsa, Volyn, Zhytomyr, Ivano-Frankivsk, Kiev, Lviv, Rivne, Ternopil, Khmelnytsky, Cherkasy, Chernivtsi and Chernihiv).

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:55 pm

    О работе ИАЦ "Кассад".
    http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1795869.html

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:13 pm

    arpakola wrote:О работе ИАЦ "Кассад".
    http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1795869.html

    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.gr/2014/09/strelkov-from-swimming-with-piranhas-to.html
    INTRODUCTION:

    Yesterday's press conference by Strelkov is, I believe, a historical moment because it marks the move of Strelkov from the Novorussian military struggle into the much larger, and far more dangerous struggle, the struggle for the political future of Russia. This in itself is no necessarily unexpected, but the way he did it was a surprise, at least for me. But before I zoom out to the bigger picture, I think that it would be helpful to try to summarize some of the key points of his presentation (thanks to Marina, you can download the full English transcript by clicking here and the Q&A is here). Here is how I summarized what I saw as the key elements of his presentation:

    External factors (staging) - symbolic message:
    He is clearly alive and well
    The reason for his departure was infighting inside the Novorussian leadership and the fact that he was told that supplies would only be delivered if he left.
    The photo of Putin in the back on the wall
    He is sitting behind a Russian monarchist flag on the table (and a Russian and Novorussian flag in the back (no Soviet or Communists symbols)
    His view about the ceasefire agreement:
    This ceasefire has now created military situation is now worse than this spring
    What is disgraceful is not the ceasefire by itself but "the conditions which are now being discussed in Minks"
    There is plan to blame the betrayal of Novorussia on Putin
    There are powerful interests which want a never ending war which would create a bleeding ulcer for Russia
    His description of the 5th column:
    The roots of this 5th column go back to the Eltsin years
    The liberation of Crimea took the 5th column by surprise
    The 5th column is around President
    There is a local 5th column in Donbass which has been and still is negotiating with Ukie oligarchs
    The 5th column is composed of "liberals"
    Putin is a moral threat to them because he has massive popular support
    They want to overthrow Putin
    They want to dismember Russia
    This will be a long war on Russia
    We are dealing with another 1905 and 1917 like situation
    By saving Novorussia Russia can save itself
    Western sanctions will hurt Russia and they will use them to discredit Putin
    Strelkov's plans
    Strelkov wants to fight inside Russia in support of Putin (only option)
    Strelkov's main objective is to denounce the real traitors inside Russia
    This is my personal rendition of the key elements of Strelkov's presentation, and I might have missed or misunderstood something, so I therefore encourage everybody to watch to the video again and read the transcript.

    ZOOMING OUT TO THE GREATER CONTEXT:

    Before going further into my analysis of Strelkov's statements, I think that it is crucial to keep the bigger context in mind. His words are not just the words of a man speaking for the Novorussian Armed Forces (NAF) or a Novorussia hero, this time Strelkov is diving straight into the big and dangerous world of Russian "deep state" politics (though the term "deep state" does not really apply to Russia). So I will now return to a topic I have been covering for many years now.

    Long-time readers will probably recall that I often spoke of a behind-the-scenes struggle between what I called the "Eurasian Sovereignists" (ES) and the "Atlantic Integrationists" (AI). I will not repeat it all here, but I do encourage you to read the following articles:
    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2013/02/russia-and-islam-part-three-internal.html
    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2013/03/russia-and-islam-part-six-kremlin.html
    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-power-struggle-inside-kremlin-is.html
    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2013/10/1993-2013-is-twenty-years-long-pas-de.html
    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/04/a-new-cold-war-has-begun-let-us-embrace.html
    The two first articles are part of a much longer seven-part series on Islam, but they introduce the historical context of the development of the ES and AI factions. The next two I would consider mandatory reading if you are not familiar with the topic and the last one is just a more recent discussion of the role of these two factions in the current Cold War v2. Having said that, my key thesis is this:

    The "5th column" Strelkov refers to are the very same people I call Atlantic Integrationists.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:14 pm

    The "5th column" Strelkov refers to are the very same people I call Atlantic Integrationists.

    Strelkov names no names, but he describes them very accurately (see above) and he adds that they only value "money and other material resources". They are the Russian equivalent of the AngloZionist 1%ers. Their main political goal is to fully integrate Russia into the AngloZionist international system on a financial, political, economic and cultural levels. They see Russia as "European" and they believe that "the West" (i.e. the AngloZionist Empire) and Russia need to stand together against Islam, China and any other non-imperial ideology, religion, nation or alliance. They believe in capitalism and they are opposed to a "social state" (to use Putin's description of modern Russia) and they are systematically contemptuous of the "masses" though they try hard not to show this aspect of their worldview. These are the folks who gradually took power during the 1980s and who had the predatory instincts to seize the moment in the early 1990s to rapidly and ruthlessly acquire an absolutely unimaginable amount of wealth, stolen from the Russian people.

    Now, it is true that due to an absolutely brilliant move by the Russian security services during the late 1990s and thanks to the chaos in which Russia was plunged, these AI (aka 5th columnists) did make a fatal mistake. Their plan was to put forward a rather uninspiring and dull bureaucrat into power and surround him by men coming from their own circles. What they did not foresee is that this rather uninspiring and dull bureaucrat would turn into one of the most formidable statesmen in Russian history - Putin - and that he would immediately set out to decapitate the top layers of the AI - the so-called "oligarchs" and the thugs who enforced their rule - and their armed branch- the Chechen Wahabi insurgency. Putin acted so fast that he rapidly ended up in full control of the so-called "power ministries" (state security, presidential security, internal affairs, armed forces, emergency services) and, which is crucial, an immense popular support. In a way, this combination of state power and popular support made Putin untouchable, but that also limited his power.

    While the top and most notorious AI columnists either left Russia (Berezovsky) or were put in jail (Khodorkovsky) or died, the system they had created was still very much in place. Banking, the natural resources industry, the weapons trade, financial services and, of course, the media were still very much in their hands. So when the most arrogant one of them, Khodorkovsky, was jailed the two factions (ES and AI) achieved something of a compromise, a temporary ceasefire if you wish. The deal was this: first, as long as they don't try to take over the Kremlin and generally stay out of politics, the AI would be allowed to keep their wealth and continue to make huge profits; second, the top power would be shared between the ES (Putin, Rogozin, Patrushev, etc.) and the AI (Medvedev, Kudrin, Surkov, etc.).

    The first big blow which Putin delivered against the AI was the firing of Serdiukov and, even "worse", his replacement with Shoigu. The second massive blow was, according to Strelkov (and I agree), the operation to liberate Crimea. According to Strelkov, this operation was a huge blow to the interests of these 5th columnist because they immediately realized that it would set Russia and the AngloZionists on a collision course. They therefore gathered all their forces to a) prevent a Russian military intervention in the Donbass and b) make a deal with the oligarchs now in power in Kiev. I fully share this analysis.

    Russian vs Novorussian strategic interests

    Here comes the tricky part. There are a few assumption made by many bloggers which are the result of a fundamental flaws in logic:
    Russian and Novorussian interests are one and the same
    Anything supported by the AI is bad for Russia
    Putin is in full control and can do whatever he wants
    Novorussian leaders are always right by virtue of their heroic struggle
    Disagreeing with Novorussian leader is a sign of stupidity, betrayal or dishonesty (including for Putin himself)
    Reality is not quite that simple. For one thing, Russian and Novorussian interests are not only one and the same, they are in direct opposition on a crucial matter: Novorussia wants full independence from Kiev (whoever is in power) while Russia wants regime change in Kiev and maintain a unitary Ukraine. Second, while the fact that Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs are trying to hammer out a deal to stop the war and maintain a unitary Ukraine this might or might not be bad for Russia. Now, before I get accused of God only knows what, let me explain:

    During the late 1980s and the 1990s a bizarre kind of "partial fusion" took place between the Russian mob and the KGB. I know, sounds crazy, but it is nonetheless true and yours truly has personally seen it and personally met ex-KGB officers working in the Russian mob. However, as some say, there is no such thing as an "ex-KGB" officer. Well, in reality there is, but in most cases, at least informal contacts are maintained. So here is how I would very roughly summarize this bizarre association:

    In the 1980s: corrupt KGB officers realize that a lot of money can be made in the underworld and some official of the internal security branch of the KGB (2nd Main Directorate) found ways to profit from tight contacts with the mob.

    In the early 1990: a lot of young and smart KGB officers realize that their skills are useless in the KGB, they resign and immediately find very good positions in the "New Russian" world (at that time 100% mobsters) and use their skills (language, education, work capability, courage) to make loads of money

    These were terrible years for the KGB/FSB, but they also had one positive impact: the more corrupt and less patriotic officers left leaving many idealists behind them, idealists which would, with time, climb up the ranks.

    Now here comes the really interesting part:

    In the mid 1990s-2000: the successor to the KGB, the SVR and FSB came to realize that they had a fantastic network of potential collaborators in the newly created world of Russian business, finance, commerce, tourism, etc. They act on this and begin use this mostly "ex-mob now turned legit" worldwide network for state security purposes and industrial/commercial espionage. Even the military intelligence service, the GRU, begins to do the same with ex-officers now working in aerospace, electronics, communications, etc.

    [Off-topic but interesting sidebar: there is another most valuable network which the SVR/FSB/GRU also began to use during this period: the huge number of Jews from Russia who emigrated to the USA and Israel. Keep that in mind when you think about Russian-Israeli relations]

    2000-today: Putin and his backers begin their behind the scenes secret but ruthless war on the Atlantic Integrationists who are fundamentally oppose to the Eurasian Sovereignists who are now firmly behind Putin. Most importantly the security services who are controlled by Putin allies develop a network of potential supporters inside the basis of power of the Atlantic Integrationists. See how complex that becomes?

    So while some superficial analysts are correct when they say that the Russian oligarchs are generally 5th columnists and dangerous enemies of Putin, what they are missing is that a) not all oligarchs fall into this category and b) that Putin has the means to influence or even coerce some anti-Putin oligarchs thanks to his control of the security services and their network inside the oligarchs power base.

    So here is the crucial point: the relationship between the Kremlin and the Russian oligarchy is a very complex one. Yes, by and large, it is correct to say that we have Putin, the security services, the military, the common Russian people on one side and the oligarchs, the liberal intelligentsia, big business, banking, finance and CIA agents on the other. But in reality, this is a primitive model, the reality is infinitely more complex. I know I am going to get even more hate coming my way for saying that, but some oligarchs are (for whatever reason) Putin allies or Putin controlled-individuals. I have met some personally in the late 1990s and I am quite sure that they are still there. Why?

    Because there is a lot of money to be made in Russia by being on Putin's side. For one thing, if you are in good terms with the Kremlin, you become untouchable for the rest of the more-or-less legal "business" world. You also get juicy contracts. And the tax authorities might not be as meticulous when you file for taxes. Again, the black-and-white Putin vs oligarchs image is generally true, but only as a primitive model.

    ZOOMING BACK IN TO STRELKOV'S PRESS CONFERENCE

    Let's remember where Strelkov came from. While little is certain about him, he appears to be an ex-FSB Colonel (in anti-terrorism), who fought as a volunteer in Yugoslavia, Transnistria and Chechnia. He is also a historian, a columnist and he likes to participate in military recreations. He is a monarchist, an Orthodox Christian and and admirer of the White movement during the civil war. In Novorussia, however, he entered a totally different level jumping in one rapid, gigantic most successful leap from anti-terrorism Colonel to what could be roughly described as an divisional or even army corp commander who turned a volunteer militia force into a more or less regular army. That is a huge feat: From almost nobody he became the #1 hero and commander of the entire Novorussian resistance. And yet, Novorussia is tiny compared to Russia and big Novorussian politics are tiny compared to big Russian politics. And yet, in yesterday's press conference Strelkov made yet another huge leap - he jumped from Novorussian military issues straight into the single most complex and dangerous struggle I can imagine: the secret behind-the-scenes struggle for power in the Kremlin. It is far too early to tell if this move will be as successful as his previous one, Strelkov went from swimming with Piranhas to swimming with Great White sharks, but I am cautiously optimistic. Here is why:

    Strelkov's potential in the Russian struggle for power

    Putin is acutely aware of the fact that his official power base (the state apparatus) is chock-full of 5th columnists. The best proof for that is that he did two very interesting things:

    a) He created the All-Russia People's Front (ARPF) which unlike the official party in power, United Russia, was not created with a strong Medvedev/Atlantic Integrationist component, but was created by Putin alone. Officially, the ARPF is not a party but a "political-social movement" which is supposed to bring together a large segment of generally pro-Kremlin organizations and individuals and to provide a way for the common people to convey their concerns to Putin. In reality, however, it is also a "political party in waiting", very large, very well connected and which Putin can "turn on" at any time, especially if challenged from inside United Russia.

    b) Putin's security services have contributed to the creation of a plethora of "near-Kremlin entities" (околокремлевские круги) which officially have no subordination to the Kremlin, but which can get a lot of things done without the government involved or, even, informed. These near-Kremlin entities include some news outlets, some commercial entities, a number of clubs, some youth organizations, news agencies, etc. There is no formal list, no admission procedure, no one leader. But somehow, there are always people with contacts to the security agencies near or in these circles.

    This is were Strelkov fits in.

    Strelkov will first and foremost represent the interests of the people of Novorussia, but since he correctly identified the Russian 5th column as the main threat to Novorussia, he also is objectively becoming an ally of Putin in a common struggle against the Atlantic Integrationists. Now, let us be clear here. Strelkov and Putin will not agree on a number of issues. Strelkov clearly indicated that when he said
    "No matter how critical I am about certain internal or external policy decision of president in conditions of war started against us, I consider it necessary to support him as the only legitimate superior commander the main guarantor of freedom and independence of the state"
    The fact that he concluded that Putin must be supported does not change the fact that he is clearly very critical of some Putin decisions. My guess is that the obvious areas of disagreement are:

    a) The ceasefire and subsequent negotiations
    b) The fact that Putin does with with some Russian oligarchs
    c) That Putin wants a united Ukraine

    These disagreements are normal and should not be interpreted as the sign of some kind of opposition. Again, Novorussia and Russia simply have different interests.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:14 pm

    These disagreements are normal and should not be interpreted as the sign of some kind of opposition. Again, Novorussia and Russia simply have different interests.

    But where Strelkov and Putin are in full agreement is the need to crush the 5th column. Putin was the first to speak about a "Russian 5th column" (when he addressed the Federal Assembly) and Strelkov picked up his expression. This 5th column of Atlantic Integrationists are a mortal danger to both Putin and Strelkov and, as Strelkov correctly points out, Putin is a mortal danger to them. When Strelkov speaks of a "Putin revolution" and of a "Russian Spring" he is referring to the very same struggle which I in the past described as a struggle of Atlantic Integrationists against the Eurasian Sovereignists. The labels are different, but the process described is the same one.

    In this context Strelkov could become a very powerful ally for Putin. By speaking up for Novorussia Strelkov is also very clearly promoting the same ideology, the same worldview, as Putin. In fact, I recommend to you all to take the time and listen to (or read)
    Putin's Address to the Federal Assembly (March 18th)
    The press conference by by Alexander V. Zakharchenko (August 26th)
    Yesterday's Strelkov's press conference (September 11th)
    Putin, Zakharchenko and Strelkov all three fully realize that what is going on is nothing shot of a war on Russia, but waged, at least for the time being, by non-military means. All three know that the biggest threat to Russia is an internal one. But all three can claim that the other two do not speak for him. After all, one is the President of Russia, the second one is a top representative of Donetsk and Novorussia, while the third one is, technically speaking, a retired officer and a private individual. Yet all three together are politically encircling the Russian 5th column into a "political cauldron" in which they either support Putin or look like traitors. A potentially very effective technique.

    The second role of Strelkov is to denounce and discredit the Putin-bashers who are constantly declaring that "Putin is backstabbing or betraying Novorussia". I predict that in a near future the very same circles who until now had taken the position that Putin is a villain and Strelkov a hero will declare that Strelkov is a villain and a traitor too. Some of these guys are manipulated by western PSYOP specialists, others are simply paid by them, but their goal is to convince the world that Putin is the bad guy and that a "real" patriot needs to replace him. In other words, that Russia can only be saved by making the AngloZionist dream of a regime change in Russia come true. But then, these are the very same people who wanted to save Novorussia by making the other AngloZionist dream, of having an overt Russian military intervention in the Donbass, also come true. My advice in regards to such "sorrow-patriots" as they are called in Russia is simple: beware of those who want to save Russia by making an AngloZionist dream come true. If you keep that in mind, the enemies of Russia will be fairly easy to spot :-)

    CONCLUSION

    I was amazed and tremendously encouraged by Strelkov's very sophisticated presentation of his position yesterday. Though this might be too early to conclude, and I might be uncharacteristically optimistic about this, I believe that Strelkov has the potential to become the Novorussian leader I was hoping would emerge. If that is so, then I will gladly plead guilty of having underestimated him. Still, I will also admit that I am very concerned for him. The fact that apparently the Russia media has given his press conference little or no attention combined with the rumor that he had killed himself is a powerful message sent to him by the 5th column who is showing how powerful it still is. In particular, I consider the rumor about his suicide as a very serious death threat. Even worse, and maybe these are my paranoid inclination speaking here, there are a lot of people on both sides who might be interested in seeing Strelkov killed. The Atlantic Integrationists and their 5th column would want him dead because he is so openly denouncing them, but make no mistake, there could also be Eurasian Sovereignists who might want him dead to have him as a martyr and symbol of Russian heroism. Is that cynical and ugly? Yes. And so is the struggle for power in Russia. Most people in the West have no idea how ruthless this struggle can be. Unlike Putin, Strelkov is not protected by an extremely powerful state security apparatus and, considering that he can be hit from either side. He better be very *very* careful.

    Just for accepting to play the role he is playing now (and he, being an ex-FSB colonel, fully knows the risks) I consider him a hero and he has my sincere admiration. "They" will try to use him, threaten him, manipulate him, discredit him and use every dirty trick possible to either control him or crush him. Truly, his fate is already a tragic one and his courage remarkable. Fighting the Ukie Nazis, the Chechen Wahabis or the Croat Ustashe was a relaxing vacation compared to the kind of "warfare" going on in the struggle for the control of Russia. Since Russia is the de-facto leader of both the BRICS and the SCO the struggle for Russia is really a struggle for the future of the planet. I believe that Strelkov understands that.

    The Saker
    http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.gr/2014/09/strelkov-from-swimming-with-piranhas-to.html

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:22 pm






    arpakola
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  arpakola on Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:37 pm

    Некто Корсунь назначен ГЛАВНОКОМАНДУЮЩИМ армии Новороссии. Заявление и события, взорвавшие блогосферу
    http://malorossia.mirtesen.ru/blog/43030697234/Nekto-Korsun-naznachen-GLAVNOKOMANDUYUSCHIM-armii-Novorossii.-Za
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZnbLvTXibgU

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #8

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 8:37 pm


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