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    Russian Air-to-Air missiles

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    George1
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  George1 on Fri May 25, 2012 1:03 am

    GarryB wrote:I suspect the only hope the KS-172 had was if the Indians were interested in it... and I rather suspect they will want to go with the already developed missile in the form of the RVV-BD, which is the export model of the R-37M.

    Something like Brahmos and Oniks

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 28, 2012 9:31 am

    Something like Brahmos and Oniks

    Yes and no.

    The case with Onyx and Brahmos was that the Indians wanted a supersonic anti ship cruise missile, but they also wanted land attack capabilities too... because lets face it... Pakistan and China really don't have huge navies that would warrant hundreds of anti ship missiles. Having a missile that could attack land targets was necessary for India.

    Onyx wasn't designed for hitting land based targets and had too great a range for the Russians to be able to sell it to India anyway. The Yakhont was an export derived model of Onyx, but also did not have land attack capability, so Brahmos made a lot of sense. The result was Brahmos, which has the anti ship performance of Yakhont and a land attack capability that Onyx and Yakhont didn't have.

    In the case of the KS-172 we are talking about something the Russians already have developed, so unless the KS-172 has some special power that India particularly needs then it really doesn't make sense to enter into a joint venture to produce it because the R-37M has already been produced, as has the 200km range RVV-BD export derivative.

    If India wants a long range AAM that it can use as a fire and forget weapon to disrupt enemy aircraft attacks with little danger to their own aircraft then it makes sense just to buy RVV-BD off the shelf.

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:24 pm

    I read on few occasions that MIG-31 could take over guidance of S-300 missiles. As both systems where serving PVO it could be some higher lvl of system integration never mentioned before.
    As this now 400km range missiles comes in the play could it be that S-400 for instance could takeover R-37M/K-100 missile guidance or MIG-31BM 40N6 guidance.


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:47 am

    I have also read that this ability to take over the guidance of missiles (both SAMs and AAMs) is also a feature of the upgraded A-50s and the new A-100s will also have such a capability.

    The Su-30 in PVO service was used to provide target data to a Mig-31M with an old model radar for a test of the R-37. The target was outside the radar range of the Mig-31M with an older radar fitted so target data was provided by the Su-30 till the missile got close enough to detect and track the target itself.


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:I have also read that this ability to take over the guidance of missiles (both SAMs and AAMs) is also a feature of the upgraded A-50s and the new A-100s will also have such a capability.

    The Su-30 in PVO service was used to provide target data to a Mig-31M with an old model radar for a test of the R-37. The target was outside the radar range of the Mig-31M with an older radar fitted so target data was provided by the Su-30 till the missile got close enough to detect and track the target itself.

    Now imagine situation where just three MIG-31 interceptors flying at 20 000m in the circle providing constant 360° coverage above few S-300 regiment efficiently eliminateing S-300 earth curvation problem and at the same time fictionaly not being able to stay out of munition cozz of takeover abillity. Lots of flexibility. Now in line the with the 400km 40N6 and 400km R-37M protected space becomes much wider with few regiments of S-400 being able to protect fighters above. Those fighters with R-37M can engage low flying cruise missiles or fighters in SEAD missions or on the other hand flow out of safe zone and take on flying tanker or AWACS with R-37M. Airbattles over some theritory with integrated airdefense would see combined engagement of advesary by fighters and airdefense systems.

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  medo on Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:12 pm

    Considering, that both R-37 andN6 have active radar homing and in IADS both Mig-31BM and S-400 are integrated in complex with data links through higher levels command complexes it is quite possible. Missile only need target location before launch and in time of inertial flight. At the end missile find and hit target with its own radar.

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:14 am

    Just as importantly a target penetrating Russian air space had better not fixate on those interceptors coming up to meet them as the radar and radio silent SAM site they just flew over could launch a missile from behind them with no emissions at all.

    More importantly such networking means IIR guided missiles with very long range can be launched towards a group of enemy aircraft and it can use an onboard 3D IIR database of aircraft and it can fly all the way with its eye open looking for IR signatures that match those in its database... when it finds an enemy aircraft it can choose to attack it itself or continue on to other targets.

    Imagine a pre-emptive attack where a conflict on the ground starts so a Russian response could be to launch a few 400km range missiles into the enemies airspace before, during and after an airstrike to deter the enemy from interfering with the aircraft on the strike mission...


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    Vladimir79
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:18 pm

    Tunguska india wrote:Can anyone please enlighten me on Novator K -172 range ,Guidance system? as i did not find any information in indian sources.

    I would except for the fact work on this concept was ended like a decade ago.


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:08 pm

    Does anyone have an idea what will be the max G load of this AAM?

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:38 am

    It is supposed to be able to hit 8g targets and a general rule of thumb is about 5-6 times the target g, so in the 40-50g range perhaps.

    Doesn't sound that impressive compared to some small short range AAMs but that is quite a lot of force for a mach 5 plus flying object.


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  SOC on Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:03 am

    GarryB wrote:It is supposed to be able to hit 8g targets and a general rule of thumb is about 5-6 times the target g, so in the 40-50g range perhaps.

    Doesn't sound that impressive compared to some small short range AAMs but that is quite a lot of force for a mach 5 plus flying object.

    Three-plane (i.e. 3D) maneuver = roughly three times the maneuvering capability of the target. Want to hit a target at 8gs? You need 24gs to maneuver with. More is always better but 24gs is the minimum you need to counter an 8g target effectively. I think we used to call that the rule of three or something equally obvious.

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:12 am

    But g increases with speed... so with higher speed interceptors the g load of any particular turn rate increases.

    Of course a large directed warhead can reduce the amount of manouverability required for a kill and precision target tracking and side thruster rockets to shift the missile closer to the target in those last few mili seconds can also make a huge difference too. Smile


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    Izd. 750 (K-74M) passes state testing

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:55 pm

    Briefly, it says the state tests were passed on the 3rd of October




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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:49 pm

    Now let's wish it would be fielded Very Happy in quantity.

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:50 am

    x2


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:11 am

    Thats RVV-MD i believe

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Shadåw on Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:15 pm

    Austin wrote:Thats RVV-MD i believe
    I would assume so as well, is there any information out regarding it if any at all? what will be its improvements?

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Austin on Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:22 pm

    Shadåw wrote:
    Austin wrote:Thats RVV-MD i believe
    I would assume so as well, is there any information out regarding it if any at all? what will be its improvements?

    There you go

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/566/

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Shadåw on Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:10 pm

    Austin wrote:
    Shadåw wrote:
    Austin wrote:Thats RVV-MD i believe
    I would assume so as well, is there any information out regarding it if any at all? what will be its improvements?

    There you go

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/566/
    Ah as expected only a litle bit most intresting hopefully more will be revealed by time, thanks for linking mate.


    I do wonder if the speed of the RVV-MD has been increased over its former "versions" seeing new NATO/European/Israeli/Japanese ones are around 2.9 mach+? but their ranges are considerably shorter, perhaps around the half of the RVV-MD.

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Mindstorm on Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:59 pm


    Thats RVV-MD i believe



    Obviously not.

    Izdeliye 750 is RVV-MD not more than izdeliye 170 was RVV-AE Wink


    The news refere to final test of the domestic version of R-74M; moreover the evolutionary pact established for the "close range" missile (even if the meaning of close range will be very different for the final missile....) to be integrated in PAKFA/FGFA - R-74M missile is only intended for transitory adoption on advanced tactical aircraft - include the completion of work and tests on at least two superior products.




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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Austin on Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:04 am

    Without know the difference between say the export RVV-MD and local K-74M its difficult to say any thing on how they differ

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Austin on Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:09 am

    I think what the lease a new WVR AAM from Russian stable needs is a FPA/IIR seeker and two way datalink that would make it comparable to something like Python-5/MICA-IR or AIM-9X.

    Most certainly a longer range which was tradationally the case with Russian WVR AAM will be hepful , 40KM as with RVV-MD should more than suffice.

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:23 am

    I think what the lease a new WVR AAM from Russian stable needs is a FPA/IIR seeker and two way datalink that would make it comparable to something like Python-5/MICA-IR or AIM-9X.

    That would be 9M100, or Morfei.

    Most certainly a longer range which was tradationally the case with Russian WVR AAM will be hepful , 40KM as with RVV-MD should more than suffice.

    I rather suspect the Morfei will be a smaller lighter missile than the R-73/74 and will most likely have a much shorter flight range.

    It will also very likely have a secondary anti missile capability so Flankers going up against F-22s might be able to out gun them directly by taking lots of missiles up to the fight.

    I also suspect that when the QWIP based sensors are in full production (they are already licence producing them for the new Catherine XP cameras) and the price comes down they will be able to fit them in thermal and optical frequency ranges that will allow light weight and cheap fire and forget optically guided weapons including ATGMs (Baikal?) and HERMES as well as weapons like the Kh-25 for a small light cheap air to ground missile.

    The Morfei will likely be optimised to be as small and compact as possible for internal carriage, which of course introduces the potential as a UCAV weapon and of course helicopter carriage.

    In naval use it will likely become a CIWS missile option for all sorts of vessels as its lock on after launch and fire and forget capability would make it an ideal way of dealing with swarm attacks under heavy ECM.

    For lighter units (ie VDV) a light vehicle with a rear cabin packed with vertically oriented missiles ready for launch with a roof mounted 360 degree FPA/IIR sensor would make for a very potent fast reaction system for all services.

    The current modern threat from NATO is based on the fact that a precision guided weapon can bring a conventional warhead so close to a small target that is effect could previously only be achieved through the use of nuclear weapons. With a point defence missile like Morfei that can engage that incoming missile away from its intended target restores a level of protection for Russian assets that means to effectively defeat them you need to resort back to nuclear weapons, which of course returns the status quo to suicide... which is where we all like it. Smile


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:25 am

    Apparently the K-74M does everything they hoped it would do. All other SR AAM projects were reportedly closed a couple of years ago...even a Ukranian project

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:32 am

    K-74 was the R-73 with a new seeker and real thrust vectoring gimbelled exhaust nozzle, instead of the simpler and easier deflection paddles used in the R-73.

    The missile the Ukrainians were working on, as a new Soviet AAM missile looks like this:



    Whereas this is Piotr Butowskis chart of future Russian AAMs:



    Of course this is not a new chart, and I suspect that the PD or ramjet powered R-77 might have become more ambitious and they might be going for scramjet propulsion. Afterall they have plenty of experience with ramjet powered missiles so there is not much reason for such a delay with the RVV-PD, scramjet propulsion should greatly increase speed and range.

    The K-74 lacks lock on after launch capability, which means it would not be much use for the PAK FA because missiles in internal weapon bays don't have a great view of the world to get a lock.

    Russian technology in the area of video based auto tracking systems should enable lots of capability in lock on after launch performance, as well as IFF and threat assessment. A 3D threat library should allow the missile to detect and identify targets for itself.

    Equally the small diameter ARH seeker shown by the Russians should allow an ARH model of K-74 for small aircraft and UCAV use.


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