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    Russian Air-to-Air missiles

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    eridan
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  eridan on Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:47 am

    Is there actual info on R-77-1 out there, aside from dimensions and general, contextless, range performance bracket?

    This video compares latest variants of R77 and Amraam. How accurate is it?

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:39 am

    Not a bad video, but things like the fact that Russian aircraft can fly faster than most western aircraft... which means better range for the missiles they fire are ignored.

    The comments about Russian radar being inferior are amusing as they tended to use the same Texas Instruments based digital electronics during the 1990s and now would likely use Russian electronics.

    The new russian missiles are a large unknown but the comments about the control surfaces seem to downplay the advantages of the rear grid fins of the R77, where in a turning engagement would allow far superior manouver capability.

    The R-77 is a medium range missile, for long range engagements they have the R-37M.

    In long range engagements the targets will mostly be bombers like the B-52 or JSTARS or AWACS or refuelling aircraft... or even troop transports... targets that would serious damage the enemy if taken out of the fight early.

    The graphics seemed to show R-77 fly directly at the target and then lose speed and fall short, while the Amraam was shown to be lofted at long range targets.

    It is known the r-27 uses a lofted trajectory to extend range, so I don't see why its replacement would not use the same trajectory models to maximise range.

    Also that crap about GPS helping AMRAAM is just that... crap.

    If you are tracking the target GPS or GLONASS does not come in to it... you detect the targets position relative to yours and you launch a missile towards the projected position of the target... as your missile flys and gets closer and closer to that intercept position you occasionally update the targets location with your radar or IRST or off platform data source... if the target performs significant manovers or speed changes and will be outside the intercept range when the missile arrives to the intercept point then the targets location at intercept is recalculated and an new intercept point is calculated.... a new manouver command is sent to your missile to change course to the new intercept point... GPS or GLONASS has nothing to do with it.


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Flanky on Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:24 pm

    I think that flight profile of the R-27ER making a long range shot was the same as the AIM-120 shown a high altitude mid stage with high speed descent to the point of interception.
    If what he says in video is true that R-77 gets a longer active burner flight it means it has a lot more energy. That means bigger no escape zone. And one more thing. Russian missiles used TI chips in their guidance warheads but i would dispute that they were the "same" as western ones. I would not be surprised if these pieces of electrohnic would have reduced performance characteristics (or some backdoors / intentional bugs for that matter). However finally it is time to introduce the Amraam-ski to active service. I would assume that it will take years for us to get to the real characteristics of the missile at wich point in time Ruskies will have already a "BM" version in service i guess. I have to admitt im lost in these Amraamski versions - question is who isnt?
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    How the R-27AR ?

    Post  Batajnica on Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:10 pm

    In 2016 Zhuhai airshow,the Ukraine exhibitoe tell :They are only manufacture of the R-27series missile,
    they offer the means ,only R27R1 and R27ER1,R-27T,R-27ET ect ,no R-27AR.

    have the R-27AR been  give up?
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:59 am

    There are two basic models of the R-27... the R-27 and R-27E.

    The R-27 model is smaller and lighter and shorter ranged.

    The R-27E had a much more powerful rocket motor and a much longer range.

    There are over a dozen variants of these two missiles.

    The R models are SARH missiles that need the target to be painted or illuminated with another aircraft's radar for a hit... that is R-27R and R-27ER.

    The IR guided models are the R-27T and R-27ET.

    The active homing model is R-27EA AFAIK.

    I don't know of anyone actually making it.

    The passive homing models are the R-27P and R-27EP.

    And then there are special models of each of the above for older model aircraft with upgrades like the MiG-21-93 and MiG-21-98, and MiG-23-98 etc etc.

    Then there are the special models for navy aircraft designed especially to operate over water...


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  kopyo-21 on Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:24 am

    Batajnica wrote:In 2016 Zhuhai airshow,the Ukraine exhibitoe tell :They are only manufacture of the R-27series missile,
    they offer the means ,only R27R1 and R27ER1,R-27T,R-27ET ect ,no R-27AR.

    have the R-27AR been  give up?
    Actually some Ukrainian firms and Radionix have marketed the dual-mode active-passive seeker for R-27s air-2-air missile as alternative option of Russian R-77s on international market and R-27s base SAM. Have not known the status or orders yet.

    http://stailker.livejournal.com/1531574.html?thread=3956662
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    About the R-27AE

    Post  Batajnica on Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:46 am

    How is the R-27AE project going?
    At the 2016 Zhuhai airshow, told the Ukraine Pavilion project is in Russia.
    with 1103M active radar seeker
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Batajnica on Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:17 am

    R-27 missile aerodynamic layout is very suitable for high G, if R-27AE project can be popular, there will be a very high mobility medium range air-to-air missile.R-27 series pneumatic layout will make the pay range and flight speed on a larger price
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Batajnica on Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:50 am

    Problems and potential of R-27AE

    Compared with semi-active radar homing, active radar homing medium range air-to-air missile can engage in farther distance. This makes all active radar Air-to-Air Missile Battle distance and range are larger than the semi active radar guided missile.
    At the same time, with higher speed, so as to reduce the end of initial homing capture errors.
    R27AE caused the flight due to aerodynamic resistance, which uses active radar homing, flight speed and range was less than that of active radar homing missile redesigned


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:31 am

    I would think the days of the R-27AE are numbered.

    On its own it has huge potential as active radar homing missiles can be launched at distant targets and then the launch aircraft is free to manouver, whereas a SARH missile the launch aircraft needs to be ready to paint the target with a radar beam when needed and keep a lock on that aircraft to impact.

    The main problem is that the R-77 has similar performance and an ARH seeker, and in terms of long range AAMs the R-37M had almost three times the range.

    The main feature of the R-27E is that it is in service already and comes in a huge number of seeker and rocket motor options... most of which are still useful and still in service.

    AFAIK the ARH model of the R-27 has not entered widespread service and therefore is probably unlikely to.


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:I would think the days of the R-27AE are numbered.

    On its own it has huge potential as active radar homing missiles can be launched at distant targets and then the launch aircraft is free to manouver, whereas a SARH missile the launch aircraft needs to be ready to paint the target with a radar beam when needed and keep a lock on that aircraft to impact.

    The main problem is that the R-77 has similar performance and an ARH seeker, and in terms of long range AAMs the R-37M had almost three times the range.

    The main feature of the R-27E is that it is in service already and comes in a huge number of seeker and rocket motor options... most of which are still useful and still in service.

    AFAIK the ARH model of the R-27 has not entered widespread service and therefore is probably unlikely to.

    I don't think there is still work being done on the R-27 and R-77. Russia is still using outdated R-27 from soviet stocks and the R-77 is just expported. They are focusing on missiles designed for Pak-Fa and they will be upgraded to go on earlier aircraft like Mig-29/35 and Su-27/30/35.

    Against F-22 and F-35, they need an all new missile, not upgrading old design like R-27 with active homing head which is a good missile however. But it's better to have an all new missile.
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Militarov on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:36 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I would think the days of the R-27AE are numbered.

    On its own it has huge potential as active radar homing missiles can be launched at distant targets and then the launch aircraft is free to manouver, whereas a SARH missile the launch aircraft needs to be ready to paint the target with a radar beam when needed and keep a lock on that aircraft to impact.

    The main problem is that the R-77 has similar performance and an ARH seeker, and in terms of long range AAMs the R-37M had almost three times the range.

    The main feature of the R-27E is that it is in service already and comes in a huge number of seeker and rocket motor options... most of which are still useful and still in service.

    AFAIK the ARH model of the R-27 has not entered widespread service and therefore is probably unlikely to.

    I don't think there is still work being done on the R-27 and R-77. Russia is still using outdated R-27 from soviet stocks and the R-77 is just expported. They are focusing on missiles designed for Pak-Fa and they will be upgraded to go on earlier aircraft like Mig-29/35 and Su-27/30/35.

    Against F-22 and F-35, they need an all new missile, not upgrading old design like R-27 with active homing head which is a good missile however. But it's better to have an all new missile.

    R-77-1 has been seen few times on Su-35S

    And work on Izd-180 (R-77M) is underway for it to be used on PAK-FA.
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:59 pm

    R-77-1 has been seen few times on Su-35S

    It's clearly for marketing as Russian air force didn't order lot of them.

    And work on Izd-180 (R-77M) is underway for it to be used on PAK-FA.

    That's an all new missile with a range of 200km, Nothing to do with the Baseline R-77. They should renamed it.
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:29 pm

    No.

    R-77-1 is relatively new. So you won't see lots of them at first. Like su-34 was during when it was made vs now.
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:52 pm

    Isos wrote:
    R-77-1 has been seen few times on Su-35S

    It's clearly for marketing as Russian air force didn't order lot of them.

    And work on Izd-180 (R-77M) is underway for it to be used on PAK-FA.

    That's an all new missile with a range of 200km, Nothing to do with the Baseline R-77. They should renamed it.

    You do realize full stockpiles of new systems don't appear over night? Just look at the Armata series, there's probably no more than a few dozen of those vehicles, but it doesn't mean there isn't going to be more, in fact there's at least 100 Armata vehicles on order.
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Militarov on Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:22 pm

    Isos wrote:
    R-77-1 has been seen few times on Su-35S

    It's clearly for marketing as Russian air force didn't order lot of them.

    And work on Izd-180 (R-77M) is underway for it to be used on PAK-FA.

    That's an all new missile with a range of 200km, Nothing to do with the Baseline R-77. They should renamed it.

    From the missile model i saw in 2009. and 2013. its using R-77-1 components.
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Batajnica on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:56 am

    R-77M is a good direction of development, has a greater potential than the R-77 operation of grid fin
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Batajnica on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:03 am

    About R-73
    Around 2004, the Russian Air Force said it had improved the R-73 type, and claimed to be a monochrome seeker
    Almost all of the Russian R-73 is a two-color seeker, and the improved monochromatic seeker should be a focal plane imaging seeker
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:26 am

    They are focusing on missiles designed for Pak-Fa and they will be upgraded to go on earlier aircraft like Mig-29/35 and Su-27/30/35.

    Their three known missiles... RVV-MD, RVV-SD, and RVV-BD seem to be upgraded versions of the R-73, R-77, and R-37M.

    I rather suspect the only fundamental changes needed will be in their seeker technology... and I fully expect dual seekers with both IIR and passive/active radar homing options as standard.

    I would think as scramjet technology matures that air breathing models will likely be developed too.

    Against F-22 and F-35, they need an all new missile, not upgrading old design like R-27 with active homing head which is a good missile however. But it's better to have an all new missile.

    I would say the opposite... the F-35 would require less performance than a late model F-15 or F-16 in terms of Kinematics to shoot down.

    Improved sensors with dual modes would make things easier, but a new missile from scratch would not be needed.

    The R-77 was designed from the outset for internal carriage and the R-73 and R-37s don't have large wing surfaces that would make internal carriage a problem...


    It's clearly for marketing as Russian air force didn't order lot of them.

    The Russian AF has ordered a lot of guided missiles in the last few years... I would suspect mostly for testing, but not for improving the export potential of the missiles themselves.

    R-77M is a good direction of development, has a greater potential than the R-77 operation of grid fin

    I would say the exact opposite.

    The grid fins fold forward to take up very little space when carried internally... and in terms of flight performance the grid fins offer much better terminal manouver capability over small triangular fins that it is a joke.

    Personally I would go with a short solid rocket booster package that extends to the rear of the missile that has external rear triangular fins for the launch and boost phase to a high altitude loft to the target area. When the missile starts to descend onto the target the rear fins can be ejected with the short booster section with the main rear grid fins popping out for the terminal phase of the attack maximising performance... low drag flight to target area and max manouver performance for end game.

    Obviously the main missile engine would operate through the rear booster section with the triangular fins fitted to give full range.

    Around 2004, the Russian Air Force said it had improved the R-73 type, and claimed to be a monochrome seeker
    Almost all of the Russian R-73 is a two-color seeker, and the improved monochromatic seeker should be a focal plane imaging seeker

    Their current Verba MANPAD has a three colour seeker... well actually three spectrum seeker... visible, UV, and IR to be precise.

    Needless to say if you detect something in the IR range that also has a similar image in the visible range but not UV image then you have a genuine target (UV is mainly released by burning... ie flares, or enormous electric fields (high power electrical cables).


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:28 pm

    Their three known missiles... RVV-MD, RVV-SD, and RVV-BD seem to be upgraded versions of the R-73, R-77, and R-37M.

    I rather suspect the only fundamental changes needed will be in their seeker technology... and I fully expect dual seekers with both IIR and passive/active radar homing options as standard.

    I would think as scramjet technology matures that air breathing models will likely be developed too.

    The disign of these missile are different from R-73 and R-77, I don't know for the R-37. The new R-73 is refered as R-74 in some sources.

    RVV SD is export name for the R-77-1, the new missile for pak fa is called izdeliye 180 (K-77M) wich is different than R-77 in disign motorization and guidance; new rear fins, new motor, new seeker.

    wiki R-77 wrote:Vympel, a which had merged to be part of TRV, has been developing a more extensive upgrade of the missile than the R-77-1. Designated the izdeliye 180, or K-77M, this missile is a mid-life upgrade for the weapon and is intended to be the main medium-range missile for the Sukhoi PAK FA. This upgrade aims to provide a further improvement in range, with the design including a dual-pulse motor configuration. The izdeliye 180 will use an Active electronically scanned array seeker and conventional rear fins instead of the R-77's lattice fins. This missile is intended to match the performance of the latest AIM-120 variants.[1][3] Though it uses a similar designation as the earlier R-77M improvement program, it is not known if these two missiles are the same or are related.

    The ramjet version would have huge capacities. Hope we will see it someday, however I've read somewhere Russian are satisfied with rocket motor which are very capable today. Even US don't use ramjet missiles.


    I would say the opposite... the F-35 would require less performance than a late model F-15 or F-16 in terms of Kinematics to shoot down.

    Improved sensors with dual modes would make things easier, but a new missile from scratch would not be needed.

    The R-77 was designed from the outset for internal carriage and the R-73 and R-37s don't have large wing surfaces that would make internal carriage a problem...

    I agree. An R-27T would be very dangerous against F-35 however its capacities decrease with a bad weather or with the sun in the line of the lunch. That's why they need a new better missile with a better IR seeker.
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:04 am

    The disign of these missile are different from R-73 and R-77, I don't know for the R-37. The new R-73 is refered as R-74 in some sources.

    They look externally the same... they are clearly upgrades of the older types with likely new rocket motors and digital electronics.

    Note when the R-23R and R-23T missiles of the MiG-23 were upgraded they called them R-24R and R-24T...

    Note the RVV-BD is not on the English version of their website... you have to look on the Russian version to see the RVV-BD. The RVV-BD is not an upgrade of the R-33, it is an upgrade of the R-37 that replaced the R-33.

    RVV SD is export name for the R-77-1, the new missile for pak fa is called izdeliye 180 (K-77M) wich is different than R-77 in disign motorization and guidance; new rear fins, new motor, new seeker.

    So they say but the only photos I have seen of a PAK FA prototype with weapons shows it carrying the old R-77-1 with the grid rear fins externally.

    Those grid fins fold forward for internal carriage and would fit internally as they are now.


    The ramjet version would have huge capacities. Hope we will see it someday, however I've read somewhere Russian are satisfied with rocket motor which are very capable today. Even US don't use ramjet missiles.

    Ramjet powered missiles would not be worth the effort. Scramjet powered missiles can be much much faster and are much more interesting. The Russians have plenty of experience with ramjet powered missiles... the SA-6 KUB, the Kh-31 family of missiles, and several large anti ship missiles also use ramjet propulsion right now.

    I agree. An R-27T would be very dangerous against F-35 however its capacities decrease with a bad weather or with the sun in the line of the lunch. That's why they need a new better missile with a better IR seeker.

    Not strictly true.... current IR technologies would suffice and new sensors can be fitted easily.

    The real thing is that the missile does not have to lock on at launch... it can be fired at a target detected by long wave radar to intercept the invisible enemy fighter... course corrections can be sent via datalink until it gets close enough to use its own seeker to find and kill the target....

    An R-27ET or even a new model scramjet powered version would be interesting....


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Isos on Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:16 pm



    R-77 used as anti radar missile. Nice second role capability. With it's range, it's between Kh-25MPU and kh-58 and can probably be used without electronic pod (with less probability of kill however ?) by any aircraft.
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:09 pm

    http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2010-07-17/t-50-completes-early-flight-and-bench-tests

    Just found this article where it is said that they were thinking about a R-77ME, ramjet version of the R-77M developed for Pak Fa but they chose the "solid-propellant version–roughly equivalent to the AIM-120D AMRAAM–offers greater potential in a shorter time".

    What does that mean ?

    The ramjet is supposed to work all the way to the target so it has better perfermances for intercepting a taget. The rocket version burns some time and then it goes unpowered so its performances are worse than those of the ramjet version.

    Why are they chosing the "normal" version then ?

    BTW, for how many Km's does the rocket burns for a missile like R-77 ? Half of the max range ?

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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  eridan on Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:22 pm

    Isos wrote:
    BTW, for how many Km's does the rocket burns for a missile like R-77 ? Half of the max range ?

    More like first 10-12 km, depending on velocity of the plane that launched it.
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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:54 am

    Just found this article where it is said that they were thinking about a R-77ME, ramjet version of the R-77M developed for Pak Fa but they chose the "solid-propellant version–roughly equivalent to the AIM-120D AMRAAM–offers greater potential in a shorter time".

    What does that mean ?

    What they mean is that the missile is already rocket propelled so giving it longer range with a rocket engine just means making the missile slightly wider and or longer and using more powerful solid rocket propellent to give it better range. This can be done fairly quickly and easily on existing production lines.

    To convert the missile to ramjet powered means scabbing air intakes on the outside and rearranging the internal bits and pieces to fit a motor and fuel and air intakes. It would require a much greater change in design that would take longer and perhaps offer higher average flight range and speed but at the cost of other problems like manouver performance induced flame outs etc.

    I would suggest that a future scramjet powered model offers much better prospects as a ramjet powered missile would be limited in top speed to around mach 5-6, whereas a scramjet powered missile has no top speed limit... it would be rather more work than a rocket powered model but the potential in terms of improved performance would be worth it.

    In other words rocket power now with something like an R-27E improved bigger rocket motor model to increase range and speed, with future models in scramjet with further increases in performance...

    The ramjet is supposed to work all the way to the target so it has better perfermances for intercepting a taget. The rocket version burns some time and then it goes unpowered so its performances are worse than those of the ramjet version.

    Indeed a ramjet model offers similar speeds to rocket powered versions but better fuel management because you can adjust the throttle to suit the situation... a high energy launch with a climb for altitude and then a long high speed cruise at a low to medium thrust setting to maintain speed and then high thrust for the terminal attack of the target. In comparison the rocket burns in two stages... high energy short burn and then medium energy long burn but is often unpowered when it reaches its target and the burn rates are fixed and cannot be changed after production.


    Why are they chosing the "normal" version then ?

    Simpler and easier and cheaper and available sooner.

    I suspect they will leave the ramjet powered model and go straight to the scramjet powered model with a from scratch design better suited to internal carriage for all types of aircraft... imagine a box shaped scramjet powered AAM with a range of 500km and an IIR seeker and a speed of mach 9 that can be carried in the PAK DA as well as PAK FA.

    BTW, for how many Km's does the rocket burns for a missile like R-77 ? Half of the max range ?

    Depends on the design... normally they have a short burn high energy fuel to accelerate the missile off the rail to get it up to speed and then a slower burning fuel layer that basically counters drag and helps the missile maintain speed.

    the first component might burn out in 5 seconds while the second component might burn for 30 seconds or more.

    Note when launched from low altitude high drag means most AAMs are not going to be mach 2 plus missiles, but their solid propellent burns at the same rate no matter what.

    At higher altitude the first burn gets the missile up to a much higher speed and so the sustainer fuel greatly extends the flight range because the missile is already moving fast.

    With a ramjet motor the throttle can be set to best efficiency and the on board fuel should be enough for a few minutes flight.


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    Re: Russian Air-to-Air missiles

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      Current date/time is Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:48 am