Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Share
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:10 am

    kvs wrote:This time around they should do a proper job compared to the N1.   Good Russian engineering software exists that can evaluate all of the vibrational modes of any design they can propose.   I hope they retained some know-how from the Energia project.

    Ultimately, research and development of nuclear propulsion should restarted.  
    They've learned their lessons... The failure of the N1 was a direct result of Energia's reliance on Korolev, and the CCCP's insistence on speeding the project up. As you said, hopefully they can have a "repeat" of the Energia when it comes to success!

    Not only on nuclear propulsion, but on the RD-270 and other high-performance designs.... Methane anyone? (Yes, I know they are working on it...)
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4495
    Points : 4674
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:07 am

    Mike E wrote:
    kvs wrote:This time around they should do a proper job compared to the N1.   Good Russian engineering software exists that can evaluate all of the vibrational modes of any design they can propose.   I hope they retained some know-how from the Energia project.

    Ultimately, research and development of nuclear propulsion should restarted.  
    They've learned their lessons... The failure of the N1 was a direct result of Energia's reliance on Korolev, and the CCCP's insistence on speeding the project up. As you said, hopefully they can have a "repeat" of the Energia when it comes to success!

    Not only on nuclear propulsion, but on the RD-270 and other high-performance designs.... Methane anyone? (Yes, I know they are working on it...)

    If they go the nuclear route, I hope they develop a LFTR for it's one of the safest reactors and no worry of hydrogen explosions, 1/100th to 1/250th the reactive waste of uranium analogues, can be scaled up or down to a high degree, dirt cheap fuel...I know I'm preaching to the choir. Very Happy
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:14 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    kvs wrote:This time around they should do a proper job compared to the N1.   Good Russian engineering software exists that can evaluate all of the vibrational modes of any design they can propose.   I hope they retained some know-how from the Energia project.

    Ultimately, research and development of nuclear propulsion should restarted.  
    They've learned their lessons... The failure of the N1 was a direct result of Energia's reliance on Korolev, and the CCCP's insistence on speeding the project up. As you said, hopefully they can have a "repeat" of the Energia when it comes to success!

    Not only on nuclear propulsion, but on the RD-270 and other high-performance designs.... Methane anyone? (Yes, I know they are working on it...)

    If they go the nuclear route, I hope they develop a LFTR for it's one of the safest reactors and no worry of hydrogen explosions, 1/100th to 1/250th the reactive waste of uranium analogues, can be scaled up or down to a high degree, dirt cheap fuel...I know I'm preaching to the choir. Very Happy
    lol1 The problem with that would be that they wouldn't generate much thrust due to lower temperatures - Good on Earth, not in space...
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4495
    Points : 4674
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:30 am

    Mike E wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    kvs wrote:This time around they should do a proper job compared to the N1.   Good Russian engineering software exists that can evaluate all of the vibrational modes of any design they can propose.   I hope they retained some know-how from the Energia project.

    Ultimately, research and development of nuclear propulsion should restarted.  
    They've learned their lessons... The failure of the N1 was a direct result of Energia's reliance on Korolev, and the CCCP's insistence on speeding the project up. As you said, hopefully they can have a "repeat" of the Energia when it comes to success!

    Not only on nuclear propulsion, but on the RD-270 and other high-performance designs.... Methane anyone? (Yes, I know they are working on it...)

    If they go the nuclear route, I hope they develop a LFTR for it's one of the safest reactors and no worry of hydrogen explosions, 1/100th to 1/250th the reactive waste of uranium analogues, can be scaled up or down to a high degree, dirt cheap fuel...I know I'm preaching to the choir. Very Happy
    lol1 The problem with that would be that they wouldn't generate much thrust due to lower temperatures - Good on Earth, not in space...

    Que? Maybe a hybrid design, LFTR could be the main workhorse in the space portion but not the liftoff portion.
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:01 am

    "Traditional" designs would be better, once again, due to higher temperatures. LFTR's could be used to generate power and not much more... (Higher temperatures are very desirable, more so in vacuum conditions.)

    Vann7

    Posts : 3452
    Points : 3570
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:23 am



    No idea why the Proton-M was made with the Angara being so close to release... and already having
    different versions of Soyus.. anyway good video..




    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3035
    Points : 3160
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  kvs on Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:51 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    No idea why the Proton-M was made with the Angara being so close to release... and already having
    different versions of Soyus..  anyway good video..


    The Proton-M was released in 2001. It is not recent. Angara is only going to have its first full scale launch test in December of this year or
    early next year.
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:26 am

    No plans for Sea Launch project sale to Israel

    We have received no proposals on the Sea Launch purchase, Sea Launch CEO Sergey Gugkayev says

    MOSCOW, September 29. /ITAR-TASS/. The head of Sea Launch, an international spacecraft launch service, denied reports on Monday of plans to sell the project to an Israeli company.
    “The reports that an Israeli company is planning to buy the Sea Launch project are not true. We have received no proposals on the Sea Launch purchase,” the company’s CEO Sergey Gugkayev told ITAR-TASS.
    Gugkayev confirmed however that Sea Launch, which launches Russian-Ukrainian Zenith-3SL rockets from a mobile platform in the Pacific Ocean, is in talks with an Israeli firm on “cooperation in the sphere of launching spacecraft”. “But this is not the only company manufacturing satellites with which we are holding negotiations on possible joint work,” the Sea Launch consortium CEO said, commenting on the reports.

    A director of information policy department at Russia’s United Rocket and Space Corporation, Igor Burenkov, said “various options for developing the Sea Launch project are being considered, in particular, in the interests of Russia.”
    A source in the Russian Defense Ministry told ITAR-TASS that Sea Launch is currently holding negotiations with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), a major Israeli aerospace and aviation manufacturer.
    Earlier media reports said, citing unnamed sources, that a leading Israeli company in the space sector is expected to hold talks in the coming days aimed at discussing the possible sale of the Sea Launch consortium.
    The reports said that Russia's space agency, Roscosmos, and the United Rocket and Space Corporation have refused to buy the consortium, and efforts have been made to search for a foreign customer.
    The International Sea Launch consortium headquartered in Nyon, Switzerland, was founded in 1995. It was re-organized in 2010. Its majority shareholder — Energia Overseas Limited (EOL), a lower-tier subsidiary of the Russian Energia Corporation — owns 95% of shares. Three percent of shares belong to American airline Boeing and two percent to Norwegian Aker Solutions.

     - If this had happened, I'm sure more than a couple forum members would have died...
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16302
    Points : 16933
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:20 am

    Never going to happen... what rockets would Israel launch?

    The rig was designed for the Ukrainian-Russian Rocket and i suspect the Russians can build the components the Ukrainians were providing... I doubt Israel could do the same.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:28 pm

    Failure investigation ends


    On Sept. 29, 2014, a day after the Proton successfully returned to flight, the International Launch Services, ILS, which markets Proton rockets to customers outside Russia, announced that the Failure Review Oversight Board, FROB, has concluded its work after a detailed review of the findings by the Russian State Inter-agency Commission, IAC, and GKNPTs Khrunichev into the probable cause of the Proton's failure to deliver Ekspress-AM4R. 
     
    The members of the FROB reviewed the initial assessment provided by the IAC along with the additional testing and investigations that the IAC directed to be performed by Khrunichev and their subsidiaries. Based on the data presented, it was agreed by the FROB that the probable cause of the failure was the loss of structural integrity of a bolted interface that attaches the Stage III steering engine turbopump to the main engine structural frame. The loss of integrity led to an excessive steering engine turbo pump vibration environment that damaged a fuel inlet line to the oxidizer gas generator, resulting in a fuel leak. The loss of fuel led to the premature shutdown of the turbopump and loss of stage control authority and ultimately loss of mission approximately 545 seconds into the flight.
    Additionally, the FROB concurs that the identified corrective action plan will adequately address the identified probable cause and contributors to the failure, ILS said.
    According to ILS, all of the required corrective actions were incorporated into the Proton's return-to-flight mission. 
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:26 am

    Russian scientists develop unique rover descent system for ExoMars project

    Two access ramps will allow the rover to roll off the landing platform

    MOSCOW, October 3. /TASS/. Russian scientists have created a unique descent system for a Mars rover, Space Research Institute Director Lev Zelyony said on Friday.
    “Our European colleagues want to achieve maximum security for the rover so that it could roll onto Mars’ surface in any direction, if need be,” he said.
    “We have developed such a system. It has been decided to make two access ramps which will allow the rover to roll off the landing platform,” Zelyony said.
    Russian scientists will focus on Moon and Mars exploration and repeat the Phobos-Grunt mission in the next decade, Zelyony said earlier.
    The Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos) in partnership with the European Space Agency will be carrying out two stages of the ExoMars mission in 2016 and 2018.
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:02 am

    - On the Mars spacecraft topic... - Inflatables are a possibility, with better protection against radiation and space trash 'floatin round'. Read this; http://www.russianspaceweb.com/inflatable.html



    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16302
    Points : 16933
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:35 pm

    I remember reading a while back about a similar idea where a very light inflatable material was to be used for the shell, with the structure being formed by water ice. the design has a large rear array of solar panels that blocked off the suns light so the space craft was going to be cold anyway... it was intended to be used as a freighter/freezer to be put in orbit around Mars.

    When manned ships arrived they could dock onto the vessel and it would be stocked with food and equipment and of course contain water that can be used for drinking and air and rocket fuel.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:21 pm

    GarryB wrote:I remember reading a while back about a similar idea where a very light inflatable material was to be used for the shell, with the structure being formed by water ice. the design has a large rear array of solar panels that blocked off the suns light so the space craft was going to be cold anyway... it was intended to be used as a freighter/freezer to be put in orbit around Mars.

    When manned ships arrived they could dock onto the vessel and it would be stocked with food and equipment and of course contain water that can be used for drinking and air and rocket fuel.
    Do you think that you could find it? - No "pressure", but I'd love to see it! Using ice seems like an unusual decision, as the idea is to keep it as inflated and "flexible" as possible. The skin itself is relatively lightweight and wouldn't weigh as much as ice, or so I think... I think that flexible solar cells could be incorporated into the skin easily, and that would keep it simple rather than adding hard points on the craft.

    Inflatables could also incorporate the stored hydrogen "around the body" idea to reduce the effects of radiation.
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:35 am

    A Dnepr will be launching multiple sats on the 8th, unfortunately there is no news coverage of the launch as of now.

    There will be four launches this October, first the Dnepr launch, than a Proton one, Soyuz-2-1b with a Fregat upper stage, and finally a Soyuz-U at the end of the month. So we have a lot to look forward to!

    In November, we will see a -U launch and the Soyuz-2-1v (1) will finally step back up to the plate! 

    In December, the Proton will launch twice along with a Rockot.

    Adding to this list, there are many launches in limbo that may or may not be launched. - The most likely is a military-payload carrying Soyuz-2-1b, but we will see...
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3035
    Points : 3160
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:35 am

    The Earth and Venus were very similar at the beginning. Both had over 95% CO2 atmospheres and no oceans. Eventually, oceans formed on Earth and it appears they never formed on Venus. This is where the proximity to the Sun comes in. On Earth the convective cooling by the moisture in the atmosphere did a good job of cooling the atmosphere enough to allow liquid water to precipitate out. It seems that on Venus this process was not effective and liquid water never precipitated. Over the last few billion years Venus has lost most of its original atmospheric water to space while the oceans on Earth have sequestered CO2 into calcium carbonate rocks.

    Another detail is that the Sun's radiation intensity has increased by 30% over the last 4 billion years (it is undergoing the usual yellow star evolution and will eventually become a red giant and fry the Earth). That the Sun was much weaker during the epoch shortly after the formation of the Earth and Venus likely contributed to the escape of the Earth from a greenhouse Hell. Venus was not so lucky.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16302
    Points : 16933
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:10 am

    There is this, but it was not the article I read:

    http://www.neofuel.com/iceships/

    Note some of his conclusions are flawed because ice on the outside of a spaceship this far in close to the sun would create a comet tail and bleed off into space.

    the article I saw seemed to be using the ice as an internal structure material that could reduce radiation and also allow food storage and cheap simple building material for a large internal structure.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4495
    Points : 4674
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:54 am

    GarryB wrote:There is this, but it was not the article I read:

    http://www.neofuel.com/iceships/

    Note some of his conclusions are flawed because ice on the outside of a spaceship this far in close to the sun would create a comet tail and bleed off into space.

    the article I saw seemed to be using the ice as an internal structure material that could reduce radiation and also allow food storage and cheap simple building material for a large internal structure.

    From my limited understanding, water is an excellent insulator/shield against gamma radiation and astrophysicists are exploring the benefits of water-shielding.
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:18 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:There is this, but it was not the article I read:

    http://www.neofuel.com/iceships/

    Note some of his conclusions are flawed because ice on the outside of a spaceship this far in close to the sun would create a comet tail and bleed off into space.

    the article I saw seemed to be using the ice as an internal structure material that could reduce radiation and also allow food storage and cheap simple building material for a large internal structure.

    From my limited understanding, water is an excellent insulator/shield against gamma radiation and astrophysicists are exploring the benefits of water-shielding.
    It is, but the idea of "icing" it for protection is somewhat nutty. Hydrogen would do a much better job, and is more crucial for a deep space expedition than water.

    Thanks GarryB for giving me an article...
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:35 pm

    Soyuz launch failure investigation completed
    On October 7, following a meeting at Arianespace headquarters in Evry, near Paris, the Independent Inquiry Board announced its definitive conclusions into the August 22 Soyuz rocket failure to deliver Galileo FOC M1 satellites, the company announced on October 8.
    According to Arianespace, conclusions draw on data supplied by Russian partners in the program, and are consistent with the final conclusions of the inquiry board appointed by the Russian space agency, Roskosmos. The Board's conclusions confirm that the first part of the mission proceeded nominally, which means that the three-stage Soyuz launcher was not at fault. The Inquiry Board also eliminated the hypothesis that the anomaly could have been caused by the abnormal behavior of the Galileo satellites.
    The anomaly occurred during the flight of the launcher's fourth stage, Fregat, designed and produced by NPO Lavochkin. It occurred about 35 minutes after liftoff, at the beginning of the ballistic phase preceding the second
    ignition of this stage.

    The scenario that led to an anomaly in the orbital injection of the satellites was precisely reconstructed, as follows:

    • The orbital error resulted from an error in the thrust orientation of the main engine on the Fregat stage during its second powered phase;


    • This orientation error was the result of the loss of inertial reference for the stage;


    • This loss occurred when the stage's inertial system operated outside its authorized operating envelope, an excursion that was caused by the failure of two of Fregat's attitude control thrusters during the preceding ballistic phase;


    • This failure was due to a temporary interruption of the joint hydrazine propellant supply to these thrusters;


    • The interruption in the flow was caused by freezing of the hydrazine;


    • The freezing resulted from the proximity of hydrazine and cold helium feed lines, these lines being connected by the same support structure, which acted as a thermal bridge;


    • Ambiguities in the design documents allowed the installation of this type of thermal "bridge" between the two lines. In fact, such bridges have also been seen on other Fregat stages now under production at NPO Lavochkin;


    • The design ambiguity is the result of not taking into account the relevant thermal transfers during the thermal analyses of the stage system design.



    The root cause of the anomaly on flight VS09 is therefore a shortcoming in the system thermal analysis performed during stage design, and not an operator error during stage assembly. The system thermal analyses have been reexamined in depth to identify all areas concerned by this issue.
    Given this identified and perfectly understood design fault, the Board has chosen the following corrective actions for the return to flight:

    • Revamp of the system thermal analysis;


    • Associated corrections in the design documents;


    • Modification of the documents for the manufacture, assembly, integration and inspection procedures of the supply lines.



    These measures can easily and immediately be applied by NPO Lavochkin to the stages already produced, meaning that the Soyuz launcher could be available for its next mission from the Guiana Space Center as from December 2014.
    Beyond theses corrective actions, sufficient for return to flight, NPO Lavochkin will provide Arianespace with all useful information regarding Fregat’s design robustness, which is proven by 45 successful consecutive missions before this anomaly, Arianespace said.
    avatar
    Rmf

    Posts : 502
    Points : 489
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:01 pm

    usually cold helium lines for pressurisation of fuel tanks are isolated as is , and so are hydrazine lines in orbital stages because freezing in high altituide/space conditions. this looks like begginers mistake.
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:05 pm

    Rmf wrote:usually cold helium lines for pressurisation of fuel tanks are isolated as is , and so are hydrazine lines in orbital stages because freezing in high altituide/space conditions. this looks like begginers mistake.
    The thing about rockets, is that, in general, there are a million things that could go wrong. So when ESA (in this case it isn't Russia's fault) was inspecting the rocket before launch, they clearly thought that something else deserved more attention, big mistake... Anyway, a single screw can take down an entire rocket on multiple occasions, the N1 was *the* greatest example of that. If rockets could have some form of "single-piece chassis"(that is a car example, but you get the ides) (as in less total parts) they wouldn't need as many smaller, possibly problematic parts etc. The engines are always the #1 cause of failure, or something that led to engine failure etc. If rockets were electronically scanned for defects via lasers (like in nicer vehicle production) they'd have many less failures, and software checks are just as important.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16302
    Points : 16933
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:37 am

    It is, but the idea of "icing" it for protection is somewhat nutty. Hydrogen would do a much better job, and is more crucial for a deep space expedition than water.

    You would have to get hydrogen much colder to get it to solidify... otherwise it would take up a lot of space unless it was kept under pressure.

    Water to drink, water can be split into hydrogen and oxygen, which are both useful components for rocket fuel and for breathing, and as ice it can be used to create structure and of course to keep supplies cold and at an even temperature.

    AFAIK the best gas for protecting the crew would be O3... Ozone. Obviously it would be deadly for the crew to breath, and offer a highly explosive threat, but an insulated sealed area containing O3 could be used to reduce radiation along with a few areas with water ice. A valve could be used to recover the O3 later on where it could be reprocessed into breathable stable oxygen (O2)... burn it with hydrogen and you have water again...

    Of course burning the O3 with hydrogen would leave extra oxygen, so you could use less O3 to burn a larger amount of H than you would need with O2.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:43 am

    GarryB wrote:
    It is, but the idea of "icing" it for protection is somewhat nutty. Hydrogen would do a much better job, and is more crucial for a deep space expedition than water.

    You would have to get hydrogen much colder to get it to solidify... otherwise it would take up a lot of space unless it was kept under pressure.

    Water to drink, water can be split into hydrogen and oxygen, which are both useful components for rocket fuel and for breathing, and as ice it can be used to create structure and of course to keep supplies  cold and at an even temperature.

    AFAIK the best gas for protecting the crew would be O3... Ozone. Obviously it would be deadly for the crew to breath, and offer a highly explosive threat, but an insulated sealed area containing O3 could be used to reduce radiation along with a few areas with water ice. A valve could be used to recover the O3 later on where it could be reprocessed into breathable stable oxygen (O2)... burn it with hydrogen and you have water again...

    Of course burning the O3 with hydrogen would leave extra oxygen, so you could use less O3 to burn a larger amount of H than you would need with O2.

    But it would absorb more radiation, or so I've heard... In all honesty, Hydrogen doesn't need to be kept under much pressure, in the shuttle it was held at under 30 psi!

    Like I said, in reality it doesn't matter... The radiation levels are well within safe levels, and the easiest way to reduce radiation is either by thin lead or other solids, or by active-shielding.

    Ozone would subject the crew to more danger than having no protection at all....
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4495
    Points : 4674
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:20 am

    Water seems to be the most practical (multi-purpose substance) for shielding against gamma rays and likely already be in abundance on inter-planetary spacecraft, by far the least hazardous, and most likely the simplest and cheapest to keep in storage. My vote goes to water, there's already too many things in space that can kill astronauts/cosmonauts!

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:01 am