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    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:https://www.rt.com/news/433955-roscosmos-heavy-rocket-soyuz/

    Tsar-rocket: Russia starts developing ultra-heavy Soyuz-5 launch vehicle

    They started developing many things over the years, signed many papers, published many concept arts and even made some scale models.

    Let's hope that whoever is working on this project is more intelligent than person who wrote this article because other than last paragraph everything else there is factually incorrect.

    And using phrase "tsar-something" doesn't make them look witty, that joke is century past expiration date.

    This RT article is a shockingly INCOMPETENT piece of writing.  The idiot "journalist" simply copied chunks from a previous article from 2015 when the Soyuz-5 was intended as a methalox replacement for Soyuz-2 family, ie it predates the re-purposing of the Soyuz-5 name for the current Zenit-replacement project.  Thats why this muppet is talking about 9T to LEO instead of 17T...

    Original 2015 article below:

    https://www.rt.com/news/312757-progress-soyuz-5-rocket-kirilin/

    P.S Rogozin should FIRE whoever the foxtrot decided to use the Soyuz-5 name for Fenix/Sunkar core. The prospective train-wreck of misinfo and confusion should have been readily apparent to anyone.
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  kvs on Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:21 am

    It appears that the original Soyuz-5 project is not quite dead since they are proceeding with the engine development.

    I think it is highly likely that Soyuz-2 will be retired and replaced by a "Soyuz-5" powered by CH4-LOX engines. It
    will be a man rated rocket and will not competed with Angara or Sunkar.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:47 am

    Oh boy, a collaboration vs one nation. And yet the European space industry is still in Russia's dust.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:13 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Oh boy, a collaboration vs one nation. And yet the European space industry is still in Russia's dust.

    Oh really? Russia's dust? Are you sure about owner of that dust?

    Last time I checked Russia accomplished one big fuck-all over last 30 years which is how long they haven't been part of USSR.

    Remember USSR? Country that accomplished thing or two in space and on who's space program's reputation Russia has been slithering by all these decades?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:15 am

    When EU builds their own space station, doesn't rely on 50% of it being Russian and actually have their alternative to GPS and Glonass in active service, come back. Not impressive for such a large collaboration.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:15 am

    miketheterrible wrote:When EU builds their own space station, doesn't rely on 50% of it being Russian and actually have their alternative to GPS and Glonass in active service, come back.  Not impressive for such a large collaboration.

    Slam. Dunk. MTT wins by a country fucking mile. Add the fact that the Eurotrash don't even have a plan for an independent manned access to space, and its all over, red rover. Exomars, pun intended.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:27 am

    miketheterrible wrote:When EU builds their own space station, doesn't rely on 50% of it being Russian and actually have their alternative to GPS and Glonass in active service, come back.  Not impressive for such a large collaboration.

    1. Russia's participation in ISS early days was pretty much paid for by US taxpayers.
    2. ESA did build their own modules and resupply vehicles (like Japan).

    Soviet legacy aside, I don't think Roscomos has much to be proud compared to ESA. Let's just say that both are in the same league.
    Although the 20 or so ton ATV was some beast.

    PS. Columbus was launched from the US via Space Shuttle and  attached by the Canadarm on Harmony, Russia and their taxpayers were not involved.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:49 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:When EU builds their own space station, doesn't rely on 50% of it being Russian and actually have their alternative to GPS and Glonass in active service, come back. Not impressive for such a large collaboration.

    Less than 25% of ISS is Russian, they never managed to complete their segment. All they have is life support and docking module. They haven't been able to do any research work worth mentioning because they never launched lab segment.

    And everything they did was paid in full by USA as a pittance in order to keep Russia from selling Soviet rocket tech on open market. That's the only reason the whole thing isn't called Space Station Freedom:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Station_Freedom

    Every single thing Russia did in space over last 30 years was done with Soviet leftovers. None of it was Russian and none of it was post 1989. product.

    They accomplished nothing on their own unlike Europe (and pretty​ all every other players). Even South Korea who are buying Russian engines are making more progress than manufacturer of those engines.

    Slam. Fucking. Dunk. Razz
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:03 pm

    Such as what exactly? Their progress is rather silent then. Cause I don't see them sending people to space or their gps system being in full tact.

    Easy to talk about accomplishments when all you do is trash a nations space program with little sight or reason.

    The ISS is made up of 16 pressurized modules: five Russian modules (Zarya, Pirs, Zvezda, Poisk and Rassvet), eight US modules (BEAM, Leonardo, Harmony, Quest, Tranquility, Unity, Cupola, and Destiny), two Japanese modules (the JEM-ELM-PS and JEM-PM) and one European module (Columbus).

    Wow, in 28 years of being ahead in terms of awesomeness (EU), they produced 1 pressurized module for ISS. Great. Even Japan does better.

    Yeah, Russia relies on Soviet development. So what? It works and they expand upon it. China does the same. Grab what works and work with it.

    Waiting on Galileo to work....
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:21 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Every single thing Russia did in space over last 30 years was done with Soviet leftovers. None of it was Russian and none of it was post 1989. product.

    Not only that, but Russia cancelled most of the promising Soviet programs and expeditions in the 90s and 00s, many of which had huge potential in terms of commercialization and global collaborations.

    Energia launcher - neglected, cancelled.
    Buran Space Shuttle - neglected, vehicles left unprotected in building that collapsed, ergo they binned it.
    Zenit - semi-neglected, never sorted out design issues, effectively cancelled due never de-Ukrainizing it.

    The result: getting stuck with Proton and Soyuz for over 40 years.

    miketheterrible wrote:Yeah, Russia relies on Soviet development.

    Russia denied itself Soviet development, see my post above. They kept little from the Soviet learning curve of the late 80s, possibly other than their part of the ISS.

    Zarya was soviet leftover destined for the Mir, paid for by US taxpayers to go in the ISS. Zvezda is a similar story and even got 1 million USD funding from Pizza hut. Also Zvezda's Data Management system is European and paid for by us, so you're welcome.

    About half of Russian segments in ISS were not paid for by Russian taxpayers.


    Onwards to space comrades!  lol1


    PapaDragon wrote:Less than 25% of ISS is Russian

    If you take into account non-Russian funding for two of the ''Russian'' modules, this gives them something like 12-15% of ISS, as being proper Russian.
    Rolling Eyes
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:57 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    EEnergia launcher - neglected, cancelled.
    Buran Space Shuttle - neglected, vehicles left unprotected in building that collapsed, ergo they binned it.
    Zenit - semi-neglected, never sorted out design issues, effectively cancelled due never de-Ukrainizing it.

    Oh dear, the usual fucking LIES from the HATOstani Jihadist.  Lets correct the fabrications....

    Energia launcher - hugely expensive, no payloads, national economy in total meltdown
    Buran Space Shuttle - hugely expensive, no payloads, national economy in total meltdown
    (BTW the vehicles that were left unprotected in building were the property of Kazahkstan, not Russia...)
    Zenit - Ukrainian vehicle, generally surplus to Russian requirements as they had Soyuz & Proton.

    KiloGolf wrote:
    "The result: getting stuck with Proton and Soyuz for over 40 years."

    Stuck with?  Two effective rocket architectures with existing manufacturing enterprises and extensive support infrastructure, and the HATOstani thinks it should all be thrown away and replaced simply because its "old"....  In reality, both systems have been continuously upgraded with fly-by-wire controls, new avionics, etc etc to keep them relevant and effective (admittedly imperfectly in the case of Proton, but thats Krunichevs failings, not due any shortcomings of the vehicle itself).

    "Old" systems get replaced when they can no longer perform as required to meet operational requirements. This has NEVER been the case with either Soyuz or Proton.  Proton however uses hypergolics, and Kazakhstan enviro concerns must eventually be met, so its replacement is now justified, but that of course is a completely separate argument.

    KiloGolf wrote:Zarya was soviet leftover destined for the Mir, paid for by US taxpayers to go in the ISS. Zvezda is a similar story and even got 1 million USD funding from Pizza hut. Also Zvezda's Data Management system is European and paid for by us, so you're welcome.

    About half of Russian segments in ISS were not paid for by Russian taxpayers.

    Sorry, that is incorrect, little more than a bare-faced LIE.  Zarya was paid for by US, but Zvezda was Russian funded.  Corporate decals on the launch is simply a straightforward commercial deal, and has zip to do with the actual payload.  Are you seriously going to claim that Russian federal missions are "subsidized" if they take the opportunity to make some spare cash by selling advertising space????  

    As for the data management system being ESA supplied, that was because the West didn't want a Russian computer being responsible for control of the station in its early build phases.  Its wasn't an act of generosity, more an act of technical chauvinism... but hey, why not if they want to supply it.  That's what happens in a fucking INTERNATIONAL project, and it's not really fuel for childish trolls to conduct a juvenile pissing contest...

    As for the rest of the Russian section, if you have any evidence that Pirs, Poisk or Rassvet are partly funded by the US then pls post, otherwise this is just another example of a LIE you've pulled fresh from your rear end.  BTW Rassvet being delivered to the ISS via Shuttle is not an example of "US funding".

    KiloGolf wrote:Onwards to space comrades!  lol1
    Given that Russia wasn't Communist at the time of launch, I fail to see the source of mirth? Module launched successfully, and some cash was pocketed.  When Greece launches a space station module and sells advertising space on the launcher, lets revisit this theme...  lol1

    KiloGolf wrote:If you take into account non-Russian funding for two of the ''Russian'' modules, this gives them something like 12-15% of ISS, as being proper Russian.
    Rolling Eyes

    12-15% of the ISS is Russian, but ESA has far less.  Yeah, what a devastating critique.....  Why don't the stoopid Slavs hang their heads in shame...... Rolling Eyes
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:35 am

    KiloGolf wrote:....
    Onwards to space comrades!  lol1


    .....

    Holy shit, they took that Pizza the Hut joke from Spaceballs dead serious lol1

    Can't believe I just learned about this, to think that all this time they had perfectly good reason to cancel Proton, humiliation alone is enough...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:45 am

    The ISS station is MIR2.

    Its fundamental design is based on the MIR design... not the failed US Skylab design or the yet to be created European vapour ware.

    For some time I was worried about Russia because of the attitude of Europe and the US towards it that seemed totally irrational.

    Now I am glad.

    Russia could have been the wests greatest ally, able to communicate to all those countries that have stopped listening to the west, like Iran etc, huge natural resources that are largely untapped, and enormous potential.

    20 years ago and these sanctions and strong arm tactics would have worked on Yeltsin, but then Russia was no real threat to anyone but itself back then so why would they?

    Today Russia has built itself up to a point where it is probably better off going with non western allies... sure they are weak and undeveloped, but cooperation with Russia can build them up and help Russian development too.

    China has clearly come to the same conclusion with its development in Africa.

    Right now the ire of the west is directed at Russia but China knows its turn will come too and so it is building up a navy...

    Its next step will be to build more nuclear weapons, and I suspect Russia will do the same... what choice is the west giving it?

    So keep up with the Russia does not do space crap... it is certainly in Russias long term interests.


    Can't believe I just learned about this, to think that all this time they had perfectly good reason to cancel Proton, humiliation alone is enough...

    Of course, advertising on rockets shows Russia is weak.

    First space tourist is on a Russian rocket, first paid advertising on a rocket is on a Russian rocket... obviously Russia is collapsing... I mean making a profit sending people into space and earning money with paid adverts on their rockets... what are they thinking.

    BTW I guess Pizza Hut are now Putins spies too...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:36 am

    GarryB wrote:The ISS station is MIR2....

    Ehhh, sure, why not, I mean let's go with that one.... lol1

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Station_Freedom

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:14 am

    Mir-2 (1993 concept) based on DOS-8 block (reworked as Zvezda). It was 1st unit launched, so yeah.... ISS is technically Mir-2 tongue

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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Hole on Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:05 am

    The west didn´t subsidize Russia, they paid for the technology they got. Without russian help the west would still be trying to build a Docking module.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:35 pm

    Hole wrote:The west didn´t subsidize Russia, they paid for the technology they got. Without russian help the west would still be trying to build a Docking module.

    USA paid for everything starting from construction costs down to food for the workers.

    USA was to build their own modular space station and many people in NASA were severely pissed off when they were ordered to work with Russians and donate part of their already meager budget to them just because those drunk clowns were unable to keep their anorexic gophers from selling sensitive tech to first​ Arab or Nork with more than 100$ on him.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:39 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Hole wrote:The west didn´t subsidize Russia, they paid for the technology they got. Without russian help the west would still be trying to build a Docking module.

    USA paid for everything starting from construction costs down to food for the workers.

    USA was to build their own modular space station and many people in NASA were severely pissed off when they were ordered to work with Russians and donate part of their already meager budget to them just because those drunk clowns were unable to keep their anorexic gophers from selling sensitive tech to first​ Arab or Nork with more than 100$ on him.

    Got data on that?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:05 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Hole wrote:The west didn´t subsidize Russia, they paid for the technology they got. Without russian help the west would still be trying to build a Docking module.

    USA paid for everything starting from construction costs down to food for the workers.

    USA was to build their own modular space station and many people in NASA were severely pissed off when they were ordered to work with Russians and donate part of their already meager budget to them just because those drunk clowns were unable to keep their anorexic gophers from selling sensitive tech to first​ Arab or Nork with more than 100$ on him.

    Got data on that?

    Yes, Russian economy, 1989-2004
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Hole wrote:The west didn´t subsidize Russia, they paid for the technology they got. Without russian help the west would still be trying to build a Docking module.

    USA paid for everything starting from construction costs down to food for the workers.

    USA was to build their own modular space station and many people in NASA were severely pissed off when they were ordered to work with Russians and donate part of their already meager budget to them just because those drunk clowns were unable to keep their anorexic gophers from selling sensitive tech to first​ Arab or Nork with more than 100$ on him.

    Got data on that?

    Yes, Russian economy, 1989-2004

    Thanks for the link and backups to your claim that they paid for food for workers.

    [/sarcasm]
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:31 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Hole wrote:The west didn´t subsidize Russia, they paid for the technology they got. Without russian help the west would still be trying to build a Docking module.

    USA paid for everything starting from construction costs down to food for the workers.

    USA was to build their own modular space station and many people in NASA were severely pissed off when they were ordered to work with Russians and donate part of their already meager budget to them just because those drunk clowns were unable to keep their anorexic gophers from selling sensitive tech to first​ Arab or Nork with more than 100$ on him.

    Got data on that?

    Yes, Russian economy, 1989-2004

    Thanks for the link and backups to your claim that they paid for food for workers.

    [/sarcasm]

    Delicious sarcasm...well more delicious than what these guys enjoyed:



    Obesity epidemic was huge problem lol1


    yes sir

    Also I love how every Russian space project always has 3-5 year time-frame. It's brilliant when you think about it. Close enough to make you feel optimistic but still long enough to make it possible to cancel whole thing without anyone making a fuss over it. Got suckered myself plenty of times.

    So let's cut this short: once Russia actually starts doing something (anything) I will give them benefit of a doubt.

    It doesn't even have to be the whole thing. Bench test of Soyuz-5 engine, drop test of Federation or breaking ground on super-heavy launchpad construction site should more than suffice.

    Fair enough?
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:Of course, advertising on rockets shows Russia is weak.

    It's just bad form. Not even NASA pulled off such ****.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:20 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Also I love how every Russian space project always has 3-5 year time-frame. It's brilliant when you think about it. Close enough to make you feel optimistic but still long enough to make it possible to cancel whole thing without anyone making a fuss over it. Got suckered myself plenty of time

    Take Nauka ISS module (this one 100% made and funded in Russia) as an example, was meant to be launched in 2014. Now this:

    "As of early June, the schedule of launches has been revised. Now the launch of MLM is shifted to November 2019. Such a significant shift of the launch - by 3-4 months at once - indicates that the manufacturer of the module Khrunichev Center and RSC Energia are not yet ready to submit the final schedule for the assembly and launch of the module and we can expect further shift of the launch date to the right, and it may even be set for 2020," the source said.

    http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Possible_launch_date_of_Russias_Nauka_module_to_ISS_999.html

    6 years late silent
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:37 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:....

    http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Possible_launch_date_of_Russias_Nauka_module_to_ISS_999.html

    6 years late silent

    Honestly I am flabbergasted that it isn't cut for scrap by now. Given their history it's long overdue for it. They probably can't do it because it's literally only thing they have that exists in physical form.

    Without it it's just Soviet leftovers. They will probably just keep delaying it indefinitely while they bleed what little they still can from the budget.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  KiloGolf on Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:02 pm

    Oh look, more good news

    Head of Roscosmos Research Center Paison Hands in Application for Dismissal

    Dmitry Paison, the director of Russia's Central Research Institute of Machine Building (TsNIIMash), which is a rocket and spacecraft scientific center at the Roscosmos space corporation, has filed an application for dismissal, Roscosmos' press service head Vladimir Ustimenko told Sputnik.

    "Yes. He will leave the post starting from August," Ustimenko said, adding that he did not have any information about the center's future or whether it would be dissolved.

    On Friday, the newspaper Kommersant reported that Federal Security Service (FSB) officers had carried out searches in the offices of a number of TsNIIMash - a rocket and spacecraft scientific center at Roscosmos - employees as part of an investigation into a high treason case. According to the media outlet, "dozens of people" are suspected of working for foreign intelligence and "leaking" top secret designs in the area of hypersonic devices.

    http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Head_of_Roscosmos_Research_Center_Paison_Hands_in_Application_for_Dismissal_999.html


    Roscosmos is a frickin side show Shocked

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