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    Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:45 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    kvs wrote:Most people's view of ion propulsion is not relevant for nuclear reactor powered ion propulsion.   This is
    the engine that will make travel to Mars in under a month possible instead of six months.   So, no, it is
    not too slow for the Moon.

    Correct but ion engine takes long time to accelerate. Good for long distances but not for short ones.

    The Devil is in the details. In principle one could use a single atom to produce enough thrust to go to Jupiter in one shot if one
    could accelerate this atom to within some necessary delta of the speed of light. The moral of this story is that the nuclear
    power plant allows much more energy in the ions and hence much more thrust. Thus your generalization is not valid and based
    on existing low power ion engines.
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  kvs on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:50 pm

    gaurav wrote:
    kvs wrote:I wonder why the keep on aiming for dead throw weight to the Moon instead of using active propulsion.

    Park the "ship" in LEO and
    then use nuclear-ion drive to get to the Moon.


    They are not parking the ship . Parking the ship may be done by other government U.S China.

    It does not sound like you are seeing my point. I am talking about launching to LEO a craft that can reach
    the Moon from LEO orbit. This saves on the need for expensive large rockets to lob a dead weight to the
    Moon from the Earth's surface. The key here is that the Moon spacecraft is powered by a nuclear ion engine
    which is vastly more efficient than the burning through 2200 tons of fuel.

    All longer range missions (e.g. to Mars) will have to follow the model I am suggesting anyway. Why not develop
    the technology earlier to make it more mature and robust by the 2040s. All these super-conservative, minimalist
    innovation approaches are BS. We are basically at the level of the 1960s today.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:13 pm


    I don't see why aiming for larger payload should be criticized

    By using larger components you can build better and larger vessels in orbit down the road

    Just because they are building larger rocket does not mean they are abandoning multi stage approach only this time they will just go with 2 launches instead of 6

    Using ship twice the size is definitely an advantage

    As for ion engine, once it's developed they will use it, in the meantime no need to wait, use what's available
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    gaurav

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  gaurav on Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:53 pm

    kvs wrote:We are basically at the level of the 1960s today.
    Yaah I actually mixed up lot pf topics. Well to be low cost they are using conservative approach .

    How , much wait will that ion engine space craft will be. I do not think that mass configuration , testing and  related hardware will be available by 2027. -2028. I do not think Russ industry is prepared for that , that will be huge cost to fine tune and test the performance of ion engines

    First let us give a break ... First let the  Russian industry  test ion engines it on Earth orbiting satellites or for probes to moon and mars.
    Then think about space craft ,space ships

    As for ion engine, once it's developed they will use it, in the meantime no need to wait, use what's available
    I think they will revert to ion engines when it becomes available.The budget is very restricted , they do not have any risk margins.
    This budget has been extracted from future recession based Russian economy.
    We will see a decrease in military spending to take this moon mission forward.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:06 pm

    They been already testing it. They already have the money.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:35 am

    They have been talking about nuclear powered space craft for quite a bit... including an earth orbit space tug that could fly around clearing up large areas of space junk.

    These high energy ion engine powered craft are actually rather interesting.

    The low power long burn ion engines are very interesting for long flights even just for their creation of microgravity which will make a lot of things more bearable for the crew... for a start fans need to operate continuously on the space station to circulate air... without that your breath is not strong enough so once you breathed in the O2 near you you would suffocate in your own CO2.


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    Rmf

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Rmf on Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:31 pm

    nuclear ion engine is only good for unmanned light probes or  slow cargo shuttle. the weight of reactor ,shielding ,radiators is immense , and acceleration is very slow that means lot of life support  in weight too.
    its a dumb idea.
    its easy for heavy submarine to carry reactor with whole ocean as coolant. in space  it doesnt work that way.
    nuclear thermal rockets on other hand is very good propulsion ,except political problems and some treaties, it could be doable and be 2 times better then hydrogen powered engines.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Timberwind
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:40 am

    Using ship twice the size is definitely an advantage

    Not really.

    Don't think about the ship size as being the useful thing... when you double your weight of ship and its capacity then to make a trip you used to make you now need 10 times more fuel to do the same job.

    Look at the Yak-38 and Yak-38M.

    The Yak-38M has more powerful engines that burn more fuel faster, but the engines are not powerful enough to make the plane supersonic, so the end result is that the Yak-38M can take off with more weapons and more fuel, but its range is reduced because it burns more fuel and while it accelerates faster it does not have a higher top speed.

    For a space craft it is more like an expedition to the south pole or the top of everest... you have hundreds of people carrying supplies which they take so far and then drop off and return home, so the main expedition goes with little actual supplies and stops at each of the supply dumps on the way to eat. The end result is enormous weights of food and fuel carried to allow 4-5 people to do the actual journey there and back... in terms of space travel the vast majority of material carried in terms of weight is fuel... not just to get you there, but to also get you back.

    Increase the weight of the vessel and you greatly increase the amount of fuel you need to get you there and also to get you back...

    With a nuclear powered ion engine you can greatly increase the volume of fuel being used.

    A normal ion engine it is the velocity of the particles that provides the huge advantage... 3kgs of some exotic material can last for years but its high velocity means it can operate for years.

    A nuclear ion engine you can have what looks like a particle accelerator, but instead of smashing them into solid walls to look at what the collisions create you vent them out the rear of the space craft to provide thrust. 1kg of material might give 2kg of thrust in a normal rocket but accelerating that material to a large fraction of the speed of light means thousands of kgs of thrust... but over days rather than seconds.

    Of course having to carry 20 tons of fuel instead of 2000 tons makes things lighter and cheaper...

    nuclear ion engine is only good for unmanned light probes or slow cargo shuttle. the weight of reactor ,shielding ,radiators is immense , and acceleration is very slow that means lot of life support in weight too.
    its a dumb idea.

    All the references I have seen describe a space tug that operates only outside the atmosphere... have it fly around earths atmosphere removing rubbish from earth orbit, or attaching a few to a space craft going to the moon or Mars.

    they would need little life support on board and could be connected to other platforms including long range space craft to supply power too.


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    George1

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:59 am

    Russia to complete tests of new lightweight carrier rocket in 2018

    No engine replacements are envisaged

    ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow Region), July 18. /TASS/. The flight tests of Russia’s new Soyuz-2.1v lightweight carrier rocket are expected to be completed next year, CEO of the Samara-based Progress Rocket and Space Center Alexei Kirilin said at the MAKS-2017 international airshow on Tuesday.

    "We should conduct flight tests next year. We have scheduled five launches as part of flight development tests. No engine replacements are envisaged," the chief executive said.

    "This rocket will operate under the Federal Space Program through 2025," Kirilin said.


    More:
    http://tass.com/science/956726



    Russia to start manufacturing new medium-class carrier rocket


    The Russian government is expected to allocate almost $498 million for the launcher’s development

    ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow Region), July 18. /TASS/. Russia’s Progress Rocket and Space Centre is ready to manufacture new Soyuz-5 medium-class carrier rocket, Progress CEO Alexander Kirilin said on Tuesday.

    "We are ready for the production of this rocket," the chief executive said.

    Russia’s federal space program for 2016-2025 stipulates developing a new-generation medium-class space rocket complex (the Phoenix R&D work) from 2018 to 2025. The Russian government is expected to allocate almost 30 billion rubles ($498 million) for the launcher’s development. The project’s budget financing will begin in 2018.

    RD-171MV engines are expected to be mounted on the rocket’s first stage. The second stage will use the RD-0124M engine (developed by the Chemical Automatics Design Bureau and is currently part of the third stage of the Soyuz-2.1b carrier rocket) instead of the RD-120 (produced in Ukraine).

    In order to expedite flight tests, there are plans to use the launch pad of the Zenit carrier rocket at the Baikonur cosmodrome, which Kazakhstan will modernize under the Baiterek program for the new Russian rocket. The Sea Launch compound is also expected to be used for rocket launches.

    The first launch of the Soyuz-5 carrier rocket from the Baikonur spaceport is scheduled for 2022.


    More:
    http://tass.com/science/956734



    First launch of Russia’s super-heavy carrier rocket scheduled for 2028


    In Roscosmos’s estimates, the development of the super-heavy rocket and the construction of infrastructure for it at the Vostochny cosmodrome will cost $25 billion

    ZHUKOVSKY (Moscow Region), July 19. /TASS/. The first launch of Russia’s super-heavy carrier rocket is scheduled for 2028, according to the presentation delivered by Energomash Research and Production Association at the MAKS-2017 international airshow on Wednesday.

    "The first flight of a super-heavy-class carrier rocket is planned for 2028," the document says.

    A source in the rocket and space industry earlier told TASS that the first launch of a Russian Energiya-5 super-heavy carrier rocket was planned for 2028.

    Energiya Rocket and Space Corporation CEO Vladimir Solntsev presented earlier at a Moscow conference his project of an Energiya-5V super-heavy carrier rocket designed for a manned mission to the Moon. According to him, the upper hydrogen stage of the Angara-A5V carrier will be used in the super-heavy rocket’s development along with the first and second stages of the new Soyuz-5 medium-class rocket.

    A source in the rocket and space industry later told TASS that Energiya had defined the approximate design of two types of rockets intended for implementation: the Energiya-5V-PTK and the Energyia-5VR-PTK with the liftoff weight of 2,368 and 2,346 tonnes, respectively.

    Both variants are capable of delivering about 100 tonnes of payload into the low-Earth orbit, and also 20.5 tonnes into the near-Moon orbit, which is tantamount to the weight of the lunar version of the Federatsiya spacecraft.

    Instead of a spacecraft, a lunar take-off and landing module can be mounted on a carrier rocket. An inter-orbital tug based on the DM acceleration unit is intended to be used for delivering the Federatsiya spacecraft or a lunar take-off and landing module to the Moon.

    In Roscosmos’s estimates, the development of the super-heavy rocket and the construction of infrastructure for it at the Vostochny cosmodrome will cost 1.5 trillion rubles ($25 billion).

    Roscosmos also earlier stated that there was no need to hurry up with the creation of a super-heavy carrier rocket as no payloads were available for it.

    The new Russian super-heavy carrier rocket may get four stages, Energomash’s materials say.

    According to the materials, the first stage is expected to get four RD-171MV engines, the second stage - one RD171MV and the fourth stage - one 11D58MF engine.

    At the same time, three variants are considered for the super-heavy rocket’s third stage: the RD-191V, the RD-0150 or two RD-0124AP engines.


    More:
    http://tass.com/science/956957


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:06 am

    Photo of Angara A-5V at MAKS-2017.  I thought A-5V was now abandoned?  Or is this just Khrunichev deploying the exhibition eye-candy to titillate the crowd?  Or has the Russian military developed an interest in a boosting the Angara lift capability (could it even be launched from the pad in Plesetsk)?

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    gaurav

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  gaurav on Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:25 am

    BigGazza wrote:Photo of Angara A-5V at MAKS-2017. I thought A-5V was now abandoned? Or is this just Khrunichev deploying the exhibition eye-candy to titillate the crowd? Or has the Russian military developed an interest in a boosting the Angara lift capability (could it even be launched from the pad in Plesetsk)?

    Yaah yu are correct. A5V was cancelled .but then again this is my point of view. IF they are showing in the exhibition it either means it is less prioritized or it means it the project is not getting funded. The decisions taken in previous year clearly pointed out that they were cancelling A5V and renaming /upgrading to some other project.

    I donno what the heck is going on .. but the funding is limited and they are not clearly telling us what are the project that are given the go ahead.
    But even under pseudo information yu clearly and so simply pointed out A5V was cancelled .. Cool

    Thats very nice of yu
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:04 pm

    The problem is translation... many ex Soviet programmes were said to be cancelled, when in reality they were actually frozen.

    The Su-27M is not the same as the Su-35BM, but they are both upgraded super flankers... the delay when the replacement flanker design was frozen to when it was actually funded and put into production was almost 25 years so the new super flanker looks nothing like the old super flanker.

    It will be the same with the A5 rockets and other space programmes. There must have been a good reason why they didn't go ahead with the design... perhaps they did not need the capability, or it was too expensive at the time or whatever... in a few years time when they are making hundreds of Angara rocket modules a year if not thousands they might find the A5 makes economic sense again, or the concept of a centre rocket with four external boosters of a different type might make sense again and the programme gets funding...


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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:The problem is translation... many ex Soviet programmes were said to be cancelled, when in reality they were actually frozen.

    The Su-27M is not the same as the Su-35BM, but they are both upgraded super flankers... the delay when the replacement flanker design was frozen to when it was actually funded and put into production was almost 25 years so the new super flanker looks nothing like the old super flanker.

    It will be the same with the A5 rockets and other space programmes. There must have been a good reason why they didn't go ahead with the design... perhaps they did not need the capability, or it was too expensive at the time or whatever... in a few years time when they are making hundreds of Angara rocket modules a year if not thousands they might find the A5 makes economic sense again, or the concept of a centre rocket with four external boosters of a different type might make sense again and the programme gets funding...

    The difference is the Flanker and evolved variants sold like hot cakes in the late 90s, 00s, and up to early 10s when RuAF/RuN could afford to buy it.
    Nobody is going to buy A-5V afaik, unless they plan to sell it off to China or India. Which in any case will probably be the end of it.
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  kvs on Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:51 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Photo of Angara A-5V at MAKS-2017.  I thought A-5V was now abandoned?  Or is this just Khrunichev deploying the exhibition eye-candy to titillate the crowd?  Or has the Russian military developed an interest in a boosting the Angara lift capability (could it even be launched from the pad in Plesetsk)?


    Nothing is stopping Khrunichev from trying to sell its designs. It acts as a private company and not as government department. So
    linking its behaviour to that of the Russian government is tenuous.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:41 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Photo of Angara A-5V at MAKS-2017.  I thought A-5V was now abandoned?  Or is this just Khrunichev deploying the exhibition eye-candy to titillate the crowd?  Or has the Russian military developed an interest in a boosting the Angara lift capability (could it even be launched from the pad in Plesetsk)?
    ...........

    Angara A5V is permanently cancelled.

    It was always just a backup plan for super-heavy that was put on ice back in 2014 but with Krunichev slacking off, sleeping on it's laurels, promoting Kazakhstan and wasting time after winning the contact it was axed once Soyuz-5 got the go ahead (AKA money materialized from somewhere)

    Krunichev's original pitch as to use up to 4 launches for in orbit assembly of deep space vessels. But later that number grew to 6 launches which is way too high.

    So any manned or heavy rocket you see from now on not called Soyuz is just manufacturer's fantasy.

    I am surprised they did not stick Federation capsule on Proton-M model, it would be completely in line with Krunichev's track record of hydrazine/Kazakhstan/SpaceX/commercial launch fetish... lol1
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    Rmf

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    Re: Russian Launch Vehicles and their Spacecraft: Thoughts & News

    Post  Rmf on Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:30 pm

    angara-5v is cancelled but it will be used , will not be manned it will be for cargo duty now its called angara-5m , that hydrogen/oxygen 3rd stage will be used in heavy energia launcher so commonality there.

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