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    MiG-41 New Interceptor:

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    sepheronx

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:39 am

    It is quite simple to develop such systems. I recall that Hyde and I over at mp.net talked about how interchangeable systems can be and what can be done. Essentially, This next interceptor will be developed by MiG corporation. It will though, incorporate many technologies that exist currently through MiG-35 program and it will ultimately make it cheaper. I imagine that subsystems, which most are all owned by 1 company - Rostec, will also have such systems ready to make the MiG-41 interceptor due to how they produce components needed for PAK FA program and others.

    This is how I think Russia solved the issue of the past of having to fund two separate projects - have an entity that has control of the major subsystems that cost the most in terms of development. In this case, Rostec.
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:33 pm

    Different tools for different jobs.

    If you think they wont develop a 6th gen fighter and the MiG-41 then you have to ask yourself why they are upgrading the current MiG-31s instead of just developing an interceptor version of PAK FA.

    The aerospace defence force will have its own budget and will be able to afford all sorts of new toys.


    There will be a lot of overlap in capabilities and performance between a 5th or 6th gen fighter and a dedicated interceptor, but there will be enough differences to warrant a separate design.

    Hypersonic speed would be desirable and the ability to carry rather large and heavy missile over rather great distances.

    A very large radar or radar arrays would be useful, but stealth would be of little use.

    Different sensors to detect threats and targets would be useful including short, medium and long wave IR sensors as well as a variety of radar sensors in different wavelengths and detection equipment, but also datalinks so that several aircraft can work together looking for targets and threats.

    Hypersonic speed, very high altitude capability and large missiles would make satellites vulnerable to this sort of aircraft too.


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    Rmf

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Rmf on Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:25 pm

    i see no reason for supersonic interceptor if you have supercruising pak-fa. maybe some enhanced version of pak-fa with less stealth, no lerx , standard inlets ,round nozzles etc...
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:05 am

    But will the maker of the MiG-31 replacement be MiG or Sukhoi?

    I suspect it will be MiG and as such I think they will use their own subcontractors rather than those working with Sukhoi to develop the PAK FA.

    If the 6th gen fighter can manage sustained hypersonic speeds then the issue is blurred, but for the moment the PAK FA is probably not fast enough and probably can't carry enough air to air missiles at high speed for the job despite having lots of powerful sensors.

    In fact it would be interesting to see what a converted Tu-22M3 would be like as a heavy long range interceptor with inflight refuelling added it would be able to carry a very large number of heavy AAMs on its belly in conformal locations, plus the internal rotary launcher should be able to carry perhaps 6 or 12 more long range weapons.

    A very large belly mounted and wing pylon mounted missile could be used for anti satellite use for launch at high altitudes and high speeds... perhaps new scramjet engines would be needed, but it could carry an enormous nose mounted radar...


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    higurashihougi

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:54 am

    GarryB wrote:Hypersonic speed, very high altitude capability and large missiles would make satellites vulnerable to this sort of aircraft too.

    And that is when unmanned pilot cockpit come into use. At extreme condition like that it is much safer to not have a human inside the aircraft.

    W/o the human pilot people can explore various kind of extreme flying techniques (sea skimming at M4, M5, for example) which a human doesn't dare to do.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:46 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Hypersonic speed, very high altitude capability and large missiles would make satellites vulnerable to this sort of aircraft too.

    And that is when unmanned pilot cockpit come into use. At extreme condition like that it is much safer to not have a human inside the aircraft.

    W/o the human pilot people can explore various kind of extreme flying techniques (sea skimming at M4, M5, for example) which a human doesn't dare to do.

    So we still have some time ahead until deep learning is a workable technology and we are just about to create Skynet Smile


    Rmf wrote:i see no reason for supersonic interceptor if you have supercruising  pak-fa. maybe some enhanced version of pak-fa with less stealth, no lerx , standard inlets ,round nozzles etc...

    nontheless but people responsible professionally for Russia´s AF see this reason Smile




    gaurav wrote: Well in these days of financial crunch and overloading Industry specially the aviation Industry. Russia simply does not have the resources to build the infrastructure of MIG 41 and SU(6th gen )simultaneoulsy.

    Hmmm so Putin/Shoigu and RuAF experts know about economy and army needs less than you? with all respect due does not sound convincing

    gaurav wrote:
    The investment needed to build near hypersonic (high altitude interceptor, space iterceptor , ground bombing(using near hypersonic) , shock attack  missions on land, sea (using near hypersonic)) would be like 20 billion dollars at an exchange rate of 65 rubles/usd.

    We are now talking about 2 parallel investments in Sukhoi and MIG.This is preposterous. No body in sane mind would go for this.


    Not sure where did you get those USD 20 billions  from - a source perhaps? Name MiG-51 is from whom? which  of RuAF generals mentioned this name?

    as for MiG-41 article I quoted says parts for MiG-41 are already being produced now.
    MiG-41 is I´d say something like Mig-35  or Su-35 upgrade. Much more effective plane based or reworked existing and proven airframe.


    6yh gen fighter is years until goes series (around 2030?) and we do not know for sure what requirements will be there.
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    Flanky

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Flanky on Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:11 pm

    Mig-31 is a cheap and effective solution to its role....
    PAK-FA would be a very expensive solution and not being able to fulfill requirements.
    For interceptor size matters, so does for fighter... and this size requirements is the key.
    You want to have fighter as small as possible to have as little weight as possible, to be agile, stealthy etc....
    In interceptor role you want to have as much thrust, speed and fuel onboard and this dictates to have a comparably big size which might get even bigger in the future if they will include space warfare capabilities.
    You cannot apply one size fits all (yet)... the technology is not there or you might end up like F-35... a total fiasco.
    One interresting thing to add. If Shoigu and Bondarev decides to have the plane to be a 6th gen technology vehicle... we might get to see the first military application of a wing made of materials that change their shape according to preprogrammed patterns. This technology is in development but it is real...
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    sepheronx

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:29 pm

    Apparently, I read somewhere that MiG-31 was ridiculously expensive for its time. SoSomething along the lines of one of the most expensive jets in the world. Wouldn't surprise me either due to its capabilities.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:05 am

    sepheronx wrote:Apparently, I read somewhere that MiG-31 was ridiculously expensive for its time.  SoSomething along the lines of one of the most expensive jets in the world. Wouldn't surprise me either due to its capabilities.

    Speed alone simply enforced usage of titanium. If MiG-41 is to be even faster up to 5000km/h then air friction heating can got up around 1000K...then new set of materials are required
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:25 pm

    The MiG-25 and MiG-31 are expensive aircraft to buy and to operate.

    They burn enormous amounts of fuel for each flight at high speed and their engine life means they go through quite a few even if properly operated within parameters.

    The MiG-25 was mostly steel as this was cheap and the mesh around the engines to help cool them were made of silver rather than gold... silver was cheaper even if not as effective.

    The MiG-31 introduced titanium in certain high temp areas on the air frame but is still a heavy aircraft.

    the only more expensive aircraft to operate was the SR-71 which cost a small fortune.

    If it was just about the money then a variant of the Su-34 with an interceptor focus and a dedicated air to air radar of large size could have easily replaced the MiG-31 in every area except top speed.


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    NEURONAV

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  NEURONAV on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:00 am

    Important question ;

    If we have  the prospective air complex of frontline aviation PAK-FA , with super cruising capabilities
    , stealthy  with high manoverability why  Russia  direct money to ward MIG-41  instead of developing single  complex that compines both features of longe range interceptor  with multi role fighter , athough such project might be very complex and demanding in term of R&D but the cost will be the same If Russia built two separate projects .



    May be  the industrial lobby  has the final word


    Last edited by NEURONAV on Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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    sepheronx

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:09 am

    Its a matter of also giving contracts to Mikoyan, not to just Sukhoi. Sukhoi has obtained majority of contracts for both domestic and export, making them huge and a growing monopoly, something I don't think the MoD specifically wants. So in a method of giving contracts to Mikoyan, it will be programs like this interceptor and MiG-35 that will more or less help the company out.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:28 am

    NEURONAV wrote:Important question ;

    If we have  the prospective air complex of frontline aviation PAK-FA , with super cruising capabilities
    , stealthy  with high manoverability why  Russia  direct money to ward MIG-41  instead of developing single  complex that compines both features of longe range interceptor  with multi role fighter , athough  such project might be  very complex and demanding in term of R&D but the cost will be the same If Russia built two separate projects .


    because PAK FA has different requirements then PAK DP? Interceptor has to be really fast and to have big range.
    Mig-41 does not to have to be stealth or agile, needs to quick fly over Siberia to welcome US guests (like hypersonic drones...).
    Speed, ceiling, range and pay load counts.

    Weight of MiG-31 is about 50% bigger then PAK-FA.

    BTW F-35 is universal plane built around requirements for 3-4 machines? Twisted Evil
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    NEURONAV

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  NEURONAV on Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:20 am

    You're right ! Due to requirement of high speed the Mig-41 RAM coating will not withstand the high temperature. But this is true fore certain extent , for example coating the RAM coating material with radioleucent thermostable material my solve the problem of high temperature .

    Although I'm not a fan of American aerospace tech. , but I think that F-35 is excellent solution for the united state instead of building 2 or 3 diffrent planes for there requirement , F-35 still unmatured , when completed it will has significant military importance
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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  NEURONAV on Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:26 am

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    OminousSpudd

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:55 am

    NEURONAV wrote:You're right ! Due to requirement of high speed the   Mig-41 RAM coating will not withstand the high temperature. But this is true fore certain extent , for example coating the RAM coating material with radioleucent thermostable material my solve the problem of high temperature .

    Although I'm not a fan of American aerospace tech. , but I think that F-35 is excellent solution for the united state instead of building 2 or 3 diffrent  planes  for  there requirement , F-35 still unmatured , when completed  it will has significant military importance

    The F-35 will never be an interceptor, it will never be a multi-role fighter, it will never be reliably carrier capable, it will never be a CAS aircraft, and it will certainly never be a strategic bomber. It's an abomination, a frankenstein of the US MIC, and an absolute failure in every sense of the word. It will, eventually, be quietly consigned to the dust pile just like the F-22.
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:15 pm

    The problem with the F-35 is it is small.

    The problem with stealth aircraft... proper ones that is, is that they have to carry all their weapons internally to actually remain stealthy so a small plane has a pathetic payload.

    The other problem is that it is trying to be too many different designs... if they took away the requirement for it to be a Harrier replacement it would be a much better design with more internal weapons and fuel capacity.

    It will also likely be rather more expensive than the bigger fighters it is operating with... which again means there is no point in making it small and limiting its performance...


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    Azi

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Azi on Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:20 pm

    I hate this stealth bla bla...!

    A jet with radar ON is never stealth! A F-35 with active radar seeking is so stealth like a lighthouse at night. A interceptor must be fast, should have an outstanding radar and good maneuverability (the cream on top of it).

    Stealth is good to sneak behind enemy lines. It can be a advantage in the case of the operational profile for the F-22, passive radar seeking, data link and so on. The operational profile for the Mig-41 requires not really stealth, maybe it will get some stealth characteristics (better to have it, than not to have them) but it will be only weak stealth characteristisc, based on shape and RAM coating for high temperature (no foam, polymere, carbon based stuff). Weak stealth characteristic is ok, it means not wasting too much money for it, better putting the money in other characteristics.

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    Viktor

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:12 pm


    Nice thumbsup

    Svetlana Savitskaya: KLA is working on a new generation MiG-41

    Svetlana Savitskaya:
    United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) is actively working on the development of high-speed high-altitude interceptor new generation MiG-41

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Austin on Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:30 pm

    I feel instead of new interceptor they should develop a new Single Engine LMFS that is cheaper than PAK-FA and that can be sold widely in export market like F-16 or Mig-21 bread and butter fighter.

    Russia should have something that can compete with JSF in the market and that is not heavy as PAK-FA
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:12 pm

    Austin wrote:I feel instead of new interceptor they should develop a new Single Engine LMFS that is cheaper than PAK-FA and that can be sold widely in export market like F-16 or Mig-21 bread and butter fighter.

    Russia should have something that can compete with JSF in the market and that is not heavy as PAK-FA

    MiG-41 must have priority over LMFS. MiG-41 is to defend homeland from US led aggression over thousands of kilometers in northern and eastern regions.

    Besides AFAIK MiG is working on LMFS kind of plane based on MiG-35
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    GarryB

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:42 am

    Yes... working on both makes a lot of sense.

    In my opinion the light 5th gen fighter should have as a priority to have the capacity to carry an enormous amount of external stores in the non stealth loadout, while able to carry a good compliment of air to air weapons in stealthy mode.

    At the start of a conflict it needs to be able to beat off a stealth attack/cruise missile attack. Once it has achieved that then the threat will come from less stealthy threats for which a large payload of weapons makes more sense than stealthiness.


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    eehnie

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  eehnie on Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:40 pm

    The MiG-41 as fast interceptor is a very interesting project that I expect becomes real in a few years. I liked very much the news in the reports.

    I think this project is more important for Russia than a light fighter (Russia has still variants of the MiG-29 in production).

    For me the four most important projects for the Russian air warfare until 2025 would be:

    - MiG-41 (over Mach 4.0)
    - Tu-PAK-DA (supersonic strategic bomber)
    - Yak-135 (supersonic trainer and light combat aircraft for export)
    - IL-PAK-TA (supersonic transport)


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    eehnie

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:46 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Austin wrote:I feel instead of new interceptor they should develop a new Single Engine LMFS that is cheaper than PAK-FA and that can be sold widely in export market like F-16 or Mig-21 bread and butter fighter.

    Russia should have something that can compete with JSF in the market and that is not heavy as PAK-FA

    MiG-41 must have priority over LMFS.  MiG-41 is to defend homeland from US led aggression over thousands of kilometers in northern and eastern regions.

    Besides AFAIK MiG is working on LMFS kind of plane based on MiG-35

    I also think the MiG-41 must have priority over the LMFS. First because it looking to replace a veteran aircraft, that it is alone in its cathegory. The MiG-41 is the future of an entire cathegory in the military armament. Also because this is a project that means technological advance. And finally because being well done it would improve the band image of MiG as a technological leader in the military aviation industry.

    The four most important brands in the history of the Russian aviation have been:

    Yakovlev
    MiG
    Ilyushin
    Mil

    and Russia must care of them with the other living brands with lower historical production that have a future of their own:

    Tupolev
    Sukhoi
    Kamov
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    Militarov

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:52 pm

    LMFS will have major value only if it ends up being single engine low cost fighter, somewhat like J-10 is in China. If they again just make redesign of MiG-35 it wont be very interesting to RuAF, maybe Navy in some small quantities. Russia needs low cost single seater to build up flying hours, to increase number of available aircraft...

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