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    MiG-41 New Interceptor:

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    victor1985
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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:09 am

    I just tried to find a ordonated priority things must be done whit invisible planes. First must see them after that you must have a capable missile and same importance speed for own planes in order to hit and run from him.

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:51 pm

    Point is when light cameras will see as far as a radar the invisible on radar would be inutil.

    Radar waves can be bounced around the curve of the earth... light waves can't.

    Plus certain things block light waves like cloud which are easy to hide behind or even a case where a B-52 is flying away from you it will obscure its presence with its own engine exhaust smoke...

    Light is passive so you can look without being noticed. IR is also passive and has similar advantages. radar is active and sometimes that is bad but sometimes it is the best choice... of course keep in mind that a huge powerful long range radar perhaps operating on the ground can detect targets a very long way away and pass that information on to the entire air defence structure so with emitting from one source the entire air defence network will know where certain enemy assets are... add passive sensors and space and sea based sensors and even a few aircraft based sensors and you build up a richer more accurate picture of the enemy while they only detect active emitters and get a much less detailed picture of you.

    point is in order to stop him hit your base you need a fast rocket too and a good radar to see invisible planes. Otherwise he would just ignore the interceptor and go ahead to your base and hit it.

    If you can divert an enemy aircraft to attack you instead of the target you are defending then that is actually a win for you. The interceptors job is to defend your airspace and if you make the enemy aircraft divert from its proper target and chase after you then that is great... lead him over a radar silent S-400 battery and smoke him...

    And the interceptor can get enemy position from ground troops from his back? I mean if the enemy is far away the interceptor can communicate whit no worry whit own troops. And that far away advantave is given by your radar power.

    Very true. One on one is a huge advantage to the attacker... because they pick the time and place, but with a whole network the defender has the support of a range of other aircraft including... if necessary... PAK FA and Su-35S and MiG-35S and S-500 and S-400 batteries.

    Low flying weapons like stealthy cruise missiles can be engaged with Verba MANPADS and Pantsir-S and Tunguska and TOR type vehicles if they happen to be in the flightpath of the threats and get adequate warning of their approach...

    First must see them after that you must have a capable missile and same importance speed for own planes in order to hit and run from him.

    Because of the situation... ie the northern frontier of Russia, any F-22 present will be trying to minimise fuel burn and maximise speed to increase its range and combat persistance so it will be super cruising everywhere in the hope that will give it longer range and a missile launch advantage against its enemies.

    Problem is that all the advantages it gets from super cruising like altitude and speed go away when confronted with even todays MiG-31 because even todays MiG-31 will be flying higher and much faster with missiles with a much greater range.

    the only real advantage is that the radar guided missiles of both aircraft will have problems detecting stealth aircraft but little problem detecting and tracking the MiG.

    Of course the EW upgrade of the current MiGs should make that a non issue and it should be able to defend itself against AMRAAM.

    the real question is what range will the MiG-31 detect a super cruising F-22 using IRST and radar with the accuracy needed to get an R-37M close enough for its radar to get a lock.

    It also depends on whether they are adapting IIR guidance to their larger AAMs for use against stealthy enemy aircraft... it would be useful against F-22s and B-2s.


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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  victor1985 on Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:12 am

    Active radar i think can be use when you have numeric superiority.
    But if we whit intention deliver some radar waves to bounce? That doesnt mean they lost our trace?
    If he know what plane you have and know he is better he will engage base. Otherwise he will engage plane.

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:24 pm

    Active radar i think can be use when you have numeric superiority.
    But if we whit intention deliver some radar waves to bounce? That doesnt mean they lost our trace?
    If he know what plane you have and know he is better he will engage base. Otherwise he will engage plane.

    Using a radar does give away your position and likely identity to an enemy, but most of the time the data you collect from using your radar is more valuable than remaining hidden.

    equally with a flight of more than one aircraft you can turn on your radar and make your presence known... the enemy might group up and try to attack you but how many of you are there?

    You used one aircraft radar but for all they know there might be 20 fighters or 1... you might be flying over empty ground or from above a SAM network that is listening and processing the data you just acquired from your active radar scan... added to the local civilian radar network scan.

    A sophisticated enemy can use any active signals against you, but you can't get into the mentality of not using radar... or you will be even more vulnerable to attack.


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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  victor1985 on Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:01 am

    That means is a serious game about ahen to activate the active radar. Usually the one who activate has troops in the back so for you either not activate cause you are alone either you activate cause you too have troops.

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:08 pm

    War is always a serious game... and you always have to make decisions about revealing your position by opening fire or turning things on that will give your position away.


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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:01 am

    Why is the MiG-31's current wing type unsuitable for hypersonic flight?

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:39 pm

    It was optimised for the job the MiG-31 does.

    To do it at twice the speed would be more easily done with a new design.


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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  victor1985 on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:43 am

    I wanna ask something:invisibility of aircrafts like f22 is somehow poitless? Because he do reflect waves in a specific angle. Put a aircraft to rearch in that angle and he will find f22. Lets thinks having aerian radars at rational heights so that intercept returning waves. And bum. Even iranians can do that.

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  higurashihougi on Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:34 am

    victor1985 wrote:I wanna ask something:invisibility of aircrafts like f22 is somehow poitless? Because he do reflect waves in a specific angle. Put a aircraft to rearch in that angle and he will find f22. Lets thinks having aerian radars at rational heights so that intercept returning waves.  And bum. Even iranians can do that.

    The stealth cloak of F-22 is a terrible joke. It cannot withstand the Russian radars which are strong enough to use long wavelength. Including the coming 10 metre L-band radar on T-50.

    Think about it. F-117 and RQ-170 are planes specialized for stealth, but they cannot escaped Serbian/Iranian radar. F-22's steath capability is inferior therefore it is clearly visible even on Vietnamese radars.

    The only function of F-22 current stealth cloak is merely a sextoy to help the Pentagon's fanboys reach cilmax.



    Then you may ask, hey, the U.S. must use newer, better paint on F-22. They can do it, can't they ?

    Of course they can.

    And of course the U.S. can gradually replaced the sextoy M16 with much better Armalite AR-18 and Stoner 63. But why they don't do it ?

    One word: CORRUPTION.

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:59 pm

    Regarding the question is stealth pointless... no of course it is not, but it is also not some magic bullet that will make your equipment invincible either.

    It is another feature to make it harder for the enemy to defeat you.

    Look at camouflaged uniforms... most countries have them and most of the time they don't really work... you can clearly see the soldiers.

    The point is that under some circumstances they make the soldier harder to spot, but they also make his outline less distinct so it becomes harder to recognise his shape and position.

    On a shooting range a target is easy to spot and is well defined.

    In real combat you are likely scared, and probably tired and hungry and either too hot or too cold and wet and the enemy does not stand out in the open in clear view for long periods like paper targets do.

    If you can only see part of the enemy or if the enemy is moving and they are some distance away it can be difficult to see their full outline and hit them with a bullet. Camouflaged uniforms can make hitting them even harder, but then you still wear a helmet and flak jacket...


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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:53 pm

    Wasn't there talk about a long range, high speed interceptor to replace the MiG-31 in the long run Berkut?

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:58 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:Wasn't there talk about a long range, high speed interceptor to replace the MiG-31 in the long run Berkut?

    Yes, there were. I hope MiG could use its MiG-1-44 concept to develop it.

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:27 pm

    medo wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:Wasn't there talk about a long range, high speed interceptor to replace the MiG-31 in the long run Berkut?

    Yes, there were. I hope MiG could use its MiG-1-44 concept to develop it.
    At that point, why not just take back the design for the J-20 from China and make some improvements from there?

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:50 pm

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:Wasn't there talk about a long range, high speed interceptor to replace the MiG-31 in the long run Berkut?

    Yes, there were. I hope MiG could use its MiG-1-44 concept to develop it.
    At that point, why not just take back the design for the J-20 from China and make some improvements from there?

    MiG-31 replacement will not be a stealth plane, but fast plane with long range. Of course it will have lower RCS than MiG-31 and maybe better maneuverability, what MiG-1-44 could provide together with long range as it is quite big plane with large wings for a lot of fuel. We will see, if MiG will develop replacement from the start or they will shorten its development using MiG-1-44, which have flying prototype.

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:37 am

    Wasn't there talk about a long range, high speed interceptor to replace the MiG-31 in the long run Berkut?

    The MiG-41...

    So far just talk.

    Supposed to be a mach 4.2 speed interceptor.

    As Medo mentions this new aircraft is an interceptor... its main features are long range and high flight speed.

    Stealth is a waste of money... a huge powerful radar, a huge internal fuel tank, a large internal weapon bay for lots of large long range AAMs would be ideal... internal weapons because of low drag rather than low RCS.


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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:51 am

    In order to maximize the stealth, active radar aka emitter should be turn off, only receiver is functional, and that is not a good thing for air fighter. And stealthy shape means some reduce in aerodynamic shape, maneuverabilty, speed and that means reduce air fight capability.

    So far I believe, stealth is more useful for scouter/ground attacker than fighter.

    But I believe, at least for the next 2 decades, nothing can outcompete MiG-31 in air to air fighting.

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    PAK DP - In Russia began to create a radio-electronic complex for PAK DP

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:42 am

    Dear Lads, looks like famous MiG-41 is PAK DP. I did not know what thread shall I report this news - pls advise.

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150812/1179112588.html

    MOSCOW, Aug 12 — RIA Novosti, Yekaterina Spirovska, Alexander Nevar. Work on defining the shape of the radio-electronic complex of a promising aviation complex distant intercept (PAK DP), which will replace the MiG-31 began in "NIIP Tikhomirov", reported to journalists the General Director of the enterprise Yury Belyi.

    Last year the Russian air force commander Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev said that Russia in 2017 will begin research work on the development of PAK DP. Readiness to participate in the development of the aircraft in February this year, said the RAC "MiG".
    "Development system "Zaslon" of the fighter-interceptor MiG-31 has been a milestone for our Institute and became his "calling card". So, of course, we couldn't stay out of participation in the creation of new radio-electronic complex for PAK DP. Started research work on determination of appearance-based systems not only modernized "Zaslon", but for all of the latest developments, including "bars", "IRBIS", radio-electronic system for the PAK FA and others," said Belyi.

    He noted that for the new interceptor should be developed on a modern basis and all other systems.

    "If NIIP will be chosen by the developer of electronic industry, we will need to ensure communication with all onboard systems. We are also ready, have the necessary experience," added the CEO of the developer.

    NIIP is a developer of systems management service (OMS) fighter aircraft, as well as the developer of anti-aircraft missile systems of medium-range air defense Ground forces, whose task is to protect against air attack. Currently the shareholders of "NIIP Tikhomirov" are "Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey" (56%) and "Concern radio-Electronic Technology" (44%), part of state Corporation Rostech.

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:46 am

    Well well next PAK DP news as of today...

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150812/1179366786.html

    Commander videoconferencing: Interceptor future will not create before 2019


    MOSCOW, August 12 - RIA Novosti. Development work on the development of perspective aviation complex long-range interception (PAK DP), which in the future will replace the MiG-31, will begin no earlier than 2019, told journalists on Wednesday VKS Commander Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev.

    "Start of development work on the creation PAK DP planned no earlier than 2019. At the moment, the Russian Defense Ministry has successfully carried out the modernization of existing facilities interception - the MiG-31," - said Bondarev.

    He noted that the timing of the ROC to build PAK DP does not affect the status of the park interceptors videoconferencing.

    Last year, Bondarev reported that Russia in 2017 will begin research work on PAK DP. And earlier on Wednesday CEO NIIP VV Tikhomirov Yury White announced that the company has already begun work on the definition of the complex shape of electronic interceptor future.


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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  Viktor on Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:42 am

    What matters the most is that MiG-41 is in the pipeline  thumbsup

    Commander videoconferencing: Interceptor future will not create before 2019

    KRET as always busy thumbsup

    In Russia, we started to create electronic systems for the PAK DP

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  higurashihougi on Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:28 am

    Viktor wrote:What matters the most is that MiG-41 is in the pipeline  thumbsup

    Commander videoconferencing: Interceptor future will not create before 2019

    In English

    http://tass.ru/en/russia/813929

    MOSCOW, August 12. /TASS/. Research and development for the creation of a new generation long-range interceptor-fighter to replace Russia's MiG-31 will begin no earlier than 2019, the commander in chief of Russia’s Air and Space Forces, Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev said.

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:07 am

    Viktor wrote:What matters the most is that MiG-41 is in the pipeline  thumbsup

    Commander videoconferencing: Interceptor future will not create before 2019

    KRET as always busy thumbsup

    In Russia, we started to create electronic systems for the PAK DP

    ekhm this news already was in previous 2 posts Razz

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:09 am

    [quote="higurashihougi"]
    Viktor wrote:What matters the most is that MiG-41 is in the pipeline  thumbsup

    http://tass.ru/en/russia/813929

    MOSCOW, August 12. /TASS/. Research and development for the creation of a new generation long-range interceptor-fighter to replace Russia's MiG-31 will begin no earlier than 2019, the commander in chief of Russia’s Air and Space Forces, Colonel-General Viktor Bondarev said.


    Interesting here is also this sentence here:
    According to earlier reports, the MiG-31 upgrade program will provide the Russian armed forces more than 130 MiG-31BM fighter planes.

    Not bad at all

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:41 am

    GarryB wrote:As far as I know the forward swept wing is ideal for subsonic aircraft but in theory it should also be rather more efficient for high speed flight too.

    For those not familiar a very simple explaination is that a straight wing generates more life but also generates more drag. The faster you fly the more drag is created so as you get faster a sweep back of the wing can reduce drag while still generating lift.

    the main problem is that sometimes the air does not just flow straight over the wing and with very sharply swept wings the air can flow down the sweep. When it gets to the end of the wing the high pressure air and the low pressure air mix and form a huge vortex that generates parasitic drag.

    One solution is the wing in ground effect where short broad wings are used on aircraft that fly very close to the ground so the vortex does not form properly and drag is greatly reduced.

    another solution is winglets which reduces but does not eliminate the vortex.

    Another solution is wing fences but again these do not eliminate the vortex.

    the forward swept wing results in the span wise flow heading towards the wing root instead of the wing tip so the wing tip vortex is practically eliminated as a significant force on the aircraft.

    careful design allows the spanwise flow to add to lift by flowing over the lifting body fuselage instead of creating a vortex at the wingtip.

    The direct result is an enormous reduction in drag, which means the wing can be made smaller and lighter... which further reduces drag etc etc.

    The main problem is that in a turn the forces on the wing tend to make it bend upwards which increases the lift and drag and would increase the turn rate which rapidly turns a slow turn into a broken wing.

    Modern laminates that are rigid in one direction and relatively flexible in the other promised a forward swept wing strong enough not to break in a turn but flexible enough to promise an active reshapable wing so you can have it flat and low drag for high speed flight and curved and high lift for takeoff and landing. A really active wing could mean no leading edge slats and flaps which would greatly reduce RCS as well.

    Personally I would think if they can solve the problems of high speed a forward swept wing offers lower drag and higher lift.
    a triangle like wing would help?

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    Re: MiG-41 New Interceptor:

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:55 am

    victor1985 wrote: a triangle like wing would help?

    Actually in USSR there was a project Mig-301/321 interesting info there but I understand that drawings are just a fan art
    http://www.paralay.com/301.html




    or

    here is not high supersonic but also interesting shape



    http://bastion-opk.ru/mig-41/


    And here is a TSAGI model of MFP (многофункциональный перехватчик - multipurpose/universal interceptor)




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